Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks?

[John Manning]

That's no longer possible though…

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

That's no longer possible though…

If you're referring to my last post...yeah. I mean...I don't want this thread to end, but Bean Bag has a talent for summing it all up perfectly.

[Summertime Blooz]

   Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this Smile discussion after getting off to a rocky start. I realize it's become somewhat out of fashion to discuss a lot of the things that have been brought up in this thread. It seems like since BWPS  the pervading feeling is sort of "been there done that" with the more jaded Beach Boys fans, but personally I still enjoy expressing and reading about other people's thoughts on the possibilities of a '67 release. I understand it was left unfinished and we may never know much more about  a '67 Smile  than we know right now, but for me, the very fact that is was left unfinished is what makes it a great topic for discussion such a source of fascination. So, I hope this thread can continue in the spirit it was started, and not let the people who dismiss further discussion put the brakes on it. There are plenty of other threads here  for people who want to speculate on Dennis Wilson's love life or Jeff Beck's opinion of Brian Wilson. Those are fine and dandy by me, but Smile still remains the most interesting and pivotal chapter in The Beach Boys story.
     

[The Demon]

   Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this Smile discussion after getting off to a rocky start. I realize it's become somewhat out of fashion to discuss a lot of the things that have been brought up in this thread. It seems like since BWPS  the pervading feeling is sort of "been there done that" with the more jaded Beach Boys fans, but personally I still enjoy expressing and reading about other people's thoughts on the possibilities of a '67 release. I understand it was left unfinished and we may never know much more about  a '67 Smile  than we know right now, but for me, the very fact that is was left unfinished is what makes it a great topic for discussion such a source of fascination. So, I hope this thread can continue in the spirit it was started, and not let the people who dismiss further discussion put the brakes on it. There are plenty of other threads here  for people who want to speculate on Dennis Wilson's love life or Jeff Beck's opinion of Brian Wilson. Those are fine and dandy by me, but Smile still remains the most interesting and pivotal chapter in The Beach Boys story.
     

I agree, this has been great.  I'm an old lurker from the Smile Shop days about 10+ years ago, and it is nice to have real Smile conversations from time to time.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

   Thanks to everybody who has contributed to this Smile discussion after getting off to a rocky start. I realize it's become somewhat out of fashion to discuss a lot of the things that have been brought up in this thread. It seems like since BWPS  the pervading feeling is sort of "been there done that" with the more jaded Beach Boys fans, but personally I still enjoy expressing and reading about other people's thoughts on the possibilities of a '67 release. I understand it was left unfinished and we may never know much more about  a '67 Smile  than we know right now, but for me, the very fact that is was left unfinished is what makes it a great topic for discussion such a source of fascination. So, I hope this thread can continue in the spirit it was started, and not let the people who dismiss further discussion put the brakes on it. There are plenty of other threads here  for people who want to speculate on Dennis Wilson's love life or Jeff Beck's opinion of Brian Wilson. Those are fine and dandy by me, but Smile still remains the most interesting and pivotal chapter in The Beach Boys story.
     

Thirded. I've been a lurker on this board since the sessions boxset was released. It was fun to read all the discussion then. It's been fun adding my own thoughts now. I understand people who consider BWPS definitive, but not those that comment for the sole purpose of shutting down meaningful discussion other people are passionate about. Just my two cents on the matter.

[Bicyclerider]

To follow up on Micha's comments - yes, Prayer sounds amazing leading into Worms.  It's my preferred opening track to the album.  We try to figure out a track sequence by what. Brian did in the past - use singles to start or end sides - but wasn't Smile all about thinking outside the box and defying convention?

When was Prayer in a different key - during the rehearsal session?

In terms of the booklet, it was done much earlier than the track list and Frank was relying on Van Dyke's information regarding titles and lyrics.  That may explain the lack of coordination between the title list (submitted by Diane or Carl at Brian's behest) vs the booklet info (submitted by Van Dyke earlier in the process).

[Cam Mott]

To follow up on Micha's comments - yes, Prayer sounds amazing leading into Worms.  It's my preferred opening track to the album.  We try to figure out a track sequence by what. Brian did in the past - use singles to start or end sides - but wasn't Smile all about thinking outside the box and defying convention?

When was Prayer in a different key - during the rehearsal session?

In terms of the booklet, it was done much earlier than the track list and Frank was relying on Van Dyke's information regarding titles and lyrics.  That may explain the lack of coordination between the title list (submitted by Diane or Carl at Brian's behest) vs the booklet info (submitted by Van Dyke earlier in the process).

Brian may have had a convention for track order of all the albums under his full control at least though Friends. Did he?

On the other hand, having an introduction to the album would have been unconventional and unprecedented for Brian.

On the third hand, how can we be confident that an introduction made the cut in Brian's mind?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

To follow up on Micha's comments - yes, Prayer sounds amazing leading into Worms.  It's my preferred opening track to the album.  We try to figure out a track sequence by what. Brian did in the past - use singles to start or end sides - but wasn't Smile all about thinking outside the box and defying convention?

When was Prayer in a different key - during the rehearsal session?

In terms of the booklet, it was done much earlier than the track list and Frank was relying on Van Dyke's information regarding titles and lyrics.  That may explain the lack of coordination between the title list (submitted by Diane or Carl at Brian's behest) vs the booklet info (submitted by Van Dyke earlier in the process).

Exactly why I don't put nearly as much weight on the booklet or back cover as some people do. You're right, it's possible Brian wouldve defied convention and done something else for SMiLE. Just vote with your ears.

I think it's cool how Brian was exploring the religious/enlightening effect of music and laughter in this LP. One side beginning with Prayer and the other with Moaning Laughter (or ending with it) could be a cool concept that ties it all together. Maybe.

While I'm still not 100% convinced of this shuffling sections between Worms/CE/'Iron Horse' I think it's interesting and actually further proves my theory that those tracks were linked in Brian's mind, and wouldve been on the same side in 1967.

[Summertime Blooz]

To follow up on Micha's comments - yes, Prayer sounds amazing leading into Worms.  It's my preferred opening track to the album.  We try to figure out a track sequence by what. Brian did in the past - use singles to start or end sides - but wasn't Smile all about thinking outside the box and defying convention?

When was Prayer in a different key - during the rehearsal session?

In terms of the booklet, it was done much earlier than the track list and Frank was relying on Van Dyke's information regarding titles and lyrics.  That may explain the lack of coordination between the title list (submitted by Diane or Carl at Brian's behest) vs the booklet info (submitted by Van Dyke earlier in the process).

Brian may have had a convention for track order of all the albums under his full control at least though Friends. Did he?

On the other hand, having an introduction to the album would have been unconventional and unprecedented for Brian.

On the third hand, how can we be confident that an introduction made the cut in Brian's mind?

You're quite right, I think, to question whether anyone can speak with confidence that Prayer would have opened the album even though there is a recording of BW saying that it is  indeed intended as an untitled album introduction. The only thing we can say for sure is that at the time of the recording that was the intention. Things changed so often, who knows if it would really ever have made the cut? I do like to use it as an intro to the album, followed by DYLW, and the case can be made that Prayer ties into that song's lyrics about the Pilgrims coming to America to have religious freedom and the subsequent desecration of the "church of the American Indian". So. personally, I am of the mindset that DYLW would have been the album opener if Prayer was used as an intro, just because it makes a lot of sense. Plus, it was the first track on the Captol tracklist memo, which I believe was a lot less random than a lot of people hereabouts think.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

To follow up on Micha's comments - yes, Prayer sounds amazing leading into Worms.  It's my preferred opening track to the album.  We try to figure out a track sequence by what. Brian did in the past - use singles to start or end sides - but wasn't Smile all about thinking outside the box and defying convention?

When was Prayer in a different key - during the rehearsal session?

In terms of the booklet, it was done much earlier than the track list and Frank was relying on Van Dyke's information regarding titles and lyrics.  That may explain the lack of coordination between the title list (submitted by Diane or Carl at Brian's behest) vs the booklet info (submitted by Van Dyke earlier in the process).

Brian may have had a convention for track order of all the albums under his full control at least though Friends. Did he?

On the other hand, having an introduction to the album would have been unconventional and unprecedented for Brian.

On the third hand, how can we be confident that an introduction made the cut in Brian's mind?

It's true...no telling if Prayer was scrapped or not. It wasn't on Smiley, even though it was basically done. Could that be proof it was part of Worms originally then? It couldve easily been tacked on to GV or H&V, but not Worms as that was abandoned for Smiley.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree. In Smiley-Wonderful, someone says "don't think you're god, just be a cool guy." Maybe Brian saw this "spirituality of music" idea of SMiLE as untrue to his muse or beyond his powers of expression.

[Tricycle Rider]

66/67 = separate tracks
2004 = suites

This.

I don't know man, SMiLE is one of those ever changing things isn't it?...Like a lot of us, I've been through SO MANY head trips over this dang album. Kind of like Paul McCartney's lyric in "The World Tonight" (I go back so far, I'm in front of me)

The evolution of SMiLE perceptions is as interchangeable as the album itself.

I can remember discovering it, and thinking about how brilliant it would have been if only "those assholes" would have gotten out of Brian's way and let him lead the way as he had always done. (remember those days?)

Now of course, I realize that NO ONE except Brian Wilson could have stopped that album. Did he encounter resistance? OF COURSE he did. EVERY ARTIST who's ever tried to do something different has encountered that. BUT he could have said F**k you, I'll do it without you if i have to. (and in those days, he COULD HAVE)  

The damn thing was ALMOST complete enough to assemble, save for some GLARING OMISSIONS. (how could "Worms" NOT have had a lead vocal put on it? Oh, that's right, Brian was busy recording Jasper Daily!?)

As far as what SMiLE would have been, that's IMPOSSIBLE to say because the goal post was moved every time the whims of the creator changed, which was the only thing about the project that was CONSTANT.

Look at the tunes. as a cohesive set of songs, they barely even fit together. Oh, they work all right, but that's because they all (most) have the Beach Boys wonderful vocals to make everything gel.

There's the Americana trip. (H&V, Cabinessence, My Only Sunshine, Barnyard)

The Health trip (I'm in great shape, Do a Lot, Vega-tables)

The Spiritual trip (Prayer, Child is the Father, Wind Chimes, Wonderful, Surf's Up)

It seems he was recording songs in line with his current obsessions, which is very creative and "in the moment" but a bit of an obstacle when it comes time to assemble a cohesive whole.

Now don't get me wrong, I LOVE SMiLE no matter WHAT order it's in, but you guys know what I mean about this stuff.

A couple of other things I want to mention.

The Elements: BRILLIANT idea, but it wasn't finished. All we REALLY have is "Fire", so, for me, I don't even try to incorporate "The Elements" into any of my versions of SMiLE. Sometimes, I don't even USE "Fire" at all.

H&V: Ahh..The Bigger, Better, followup to Good Vibrations. NOT. This tune REALLY had Brian working his tail off. I seem to recall him saying something at one point about it putting him on a "Three Month Bummer"

Count me as one of the people who think "Vega-Tables" would have been a better followup to "Good Vibrations"

Speaking of H&V, I don't know if this is the right thread to do it in, but I would like to see a "Evolution of H&V " thread happen where we try to combine contemporary comments/musings, along with trying to construct edits as we go (using what we have) to get an idea of what state the song may have been in at the time.

Example:
What was that May 1966 version of H&V supposed to have been? Did anybody ever say how much of it there was, and is this the version AL Kooper was talking about when he said it incorporated "You Are My Sunshine?

When was Al Kooper on the scene anyway, and was he at the studio, or up at Brian's House?

Just for kicks, I did assemble a version of H&V that mimicked the demo played for "Humble Harv" and was pretty happy with the way it turned out. (though I never finished it up proper)

Has anybody here ever made a H&V edit incorporating "You Are My Sunshine"? I would like to hear how that would work. I will do it myself eventually if no one else has.

As near as I can figure, It always started cold with "I've Been In This Town So Long" and went up to the part where the second section would go (Sunshine, Great Shape, Cantina, H&V Chorus) any body else have any thoughts on that?

 

Oh Yeah, I almost FORGOT! I prefer my SMiLE as songs instead of suites!









 

[Nile]

Sure hope that these Parks acetates provide us smoe new stuff..also would love to hear more BW 66 mixes in decent shape...

But to get to the TOPIC, I prefer an album with songs , not suites... Brian never did those nad I´m certain if an album did get finished in 1966/1967 it would be in line with a handwritten list..some americana some elements songs (for instance DYDW - WC)..not restricted to side A americana side B elements..

Also I wonder where SU belongs? It could certainly be a part of an americana theme, but also elements theme..I wonder...

What makes you so sure of an "elements side/theme" in the first place?

In case of Smile there is absolutely no certainty! 
So, therefore neither can I be certain..I just feel there is some unified theme amongst some songs..but to make myself clear I didn´t write Smile and cerainly I am not BW so my opinioN doesn´t count   
Just wanted to say that these songs somehow go together..if I made myself clear...
For me THE SONGS not suites is the way to go, just so justice can be done to each song itself!
To qoute Mikie: "it was just 12 beautiful tracks with lives of their own. A bunch of songs about a musical journey across America from East to West; about modern American history and culture, including the Wild West. .."
THAT´S RIGHT..

[Ang Jones]

There are so many pieces of SMiLE that are really short - too short to be counted as 'songs'. Maybe they were intended to be one of the layers in a song. Some could fit into more than one song. These things make it hard to imagine SMiLE as the normal type of album with a collection of songs. I therefore quite like the idea of suites. I'm not sure whether this would have worked had it been done in this way in 1967. Some would have considered it pretentious. SMiLE is like a piece of kinetic art. It is possible to assemble it in a multitude of different ways (and God knows it has been given this treatment and not just by Brian).  "Time will not wither her nor custom stale her infinite variety'" - if SMiLE is a She.

[Tricycle Rider]

SMiLE is too beautiful to NOT be a She 

[Bicyclerider]

I"m a little sceptical about Kooper's linking of Sunshine with Heroes - he was never booked on a session for Heroes, but he may have been an onlooker.  It was in his biography that this was mentioned, I have the quote back home somewhere.  It was likely the May session which was scrapped, and interestingly was BEFORE Van Dyke started collaborating with Brian, so he must have had the title and presumably the verse section music already written.  Maybe Sunshine was the middle section, to be replaced by Shape and then cantina?

[Micha]

In terms of the booklet, it was done much earlier than the track list and Frank was relying on Van Dyke's information regarding titles and lyrics.  That may explain the lack of coordination between the title list (submitted by Diane or Carl at Brian's behest) vs the booklet info (submitted by Van Dyke earlier in the process).

That explains why the coordination was bad, but doesn't excuse it. My point was not, however, to ask why the coordination was bad, but to state that it was bad right from the start. Another thing: It would have been much more sensible and respectful to lay out all of the Frank Holmes drawings full page size instead of just one of them printing the others in thumbnail fashion. They obviously thought band photos were more important.

You're quite right, I think, to question whether anyone can speak with confidence that Prayer would have opened the album even though there is a recording of BW saying that it is  indeed intended as an untitled album introduction. The only thing we can say for sure is that at the time of the recording that was the intention.

Absolutely. Personally, I use You're Welcome as intro as it is in the same key as H&V and leads nicely into it. I like to believe that YW actually was intended as new album intro, although there isn't any proof for that whatsoever. Anyway, I think "Prayer" is not a good intro to an album called "SMiLE" with a funny album cover like that, but "Prayer" would be a perfect opener for an album called "Dumb Angel"...

Has anybody here ever made a H&V edit incorporating "You Are My Sunshine"? I would like to hear how that would work. I will do it myself eventually if no one else has.

My H&V edit for my "12 tracks reflecting BWPS" SMiLE incorporates it. It is, obviously, the ending, edited in after the "tape explosion". Basically I incorporated it to reduce the number of tracks to 12! In my earlier compilations "Sunshine" ended side one.

As far as what SMiLE would have been, that's IMPOSSIBLE to say because the goal post was moved every time the whims of the creator changed, which was the only thing about the project that was CONSTANT.

Absolutely!

[soniclovenoize]

We'll have to agree to disagree Micha

[Bicyclerider]

The original plan of the booklet was 6 pages of illustrations by Frank, 6 pages of photos.  Frank was surprized when he got the proof and his pages had been reduced to two.  I was hoping with the Smile sessions they would restore the original plan but that was not to be - I even suggested that as a way to get Frank to license the art.  As it is he got additional artwork into the accompanying book with the box set.

[Cam Mott]

I don't remember what his book said but Al told me in 2000 "IT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A BIZARRE ARRANGEMENT OF "SUNSHINE"
HE MUST HAVE DECIDED LATER TO MAKE HIS OWN SONG OVER THE TRACK ".

My memory is Al said in his book that Brian played them (he and Anderle) a recording of the track just shortly before Pet Sounds was released.

PS. the all caps was Al, not me.

[RioGrande]

Conceptually and musically, SMiLE makes more sense as 3 movements than 12 songs. Historically, I don't think either Brian or VDP ever had any real idea of its final structure in 1966/1967. The infamous 12-track list almost everyone drools on is something some suit (or suit-minded people anyway) tried to force on Brian, and one of the reasons he called it all off.
If he had believed in that list, he could have released the album fairly easily, but he didn't believe. The only way SMiLE could have been released in 1967 is some geniuses at Capitol and elsewhere endorsing the idea of a double album. Then we would have something similar to the BWPS vinyl: first side with the great "Americana" songs, second side "Cycle of Life" songs (almost everybody seems or seemed to agree that they flow very well together!), third side the more chaotic and fragmented, but still extremely brilliant, "Elements" (or health, or whatever). Fourth side, good extras (H & V outtakes etc.) otherwise left on the cutting floor. I am not saying this would have happened (probably not), I am saying it was the only chance.
Or so I think.
Switching from speculation to reality, I love Smiley Smile, the SMiLE section in the Good Vibrations box, BWPS and the Sessions box. My fav: the "BWPS recreation" with the original recordings in disc 1 of the Sessions box.
Unreleased? SMiLE? Must be the most released album ever.  

[Cam Mott]

Conceptually and musically, SMiLE makes more sense as 3 movements than 12 songs. Historically, I don't think either Brian or VDP ever had any real idea of its final structure in 1966/1967. The infamous 12-track list almost everyone drools on is something some suit (or suit-minded people anyway) tried to force on Brian, and one of the reasons he called it all off.
If he had believed in that list, he could have released the album fairly easily, but he didn't believe. The only way SMiLE could have been released in 1967 is some geniuses at Capitol and elsewhere endorsing the idea of a double album. Then we would have something similar to the BWPS vinyl: first side with the great "Americana" songs, second side "Cycle of Life" songs (almost everybody seems or seemed to agree that they flow very well together!), third side the more chaotic and fragmented, but still extremely brilliant, "Elements" (or health, or whatever). Fourth side, good extras (H & V outtakes etc.) otherwise left on the cutting floor. I am not saying this would have happened (probably not), I am saying it was the only chance.
Or so I think.
Switching from speculation to reality, I love Smiley Smile, the SMiLE section in the Good Vibrations box, BWPS and the Sessions box. My fav: the "BWPS recreation" with the original recordings in disc 1 of the Sessions box.
Unreleased? SMiLE? Must be the most released album ever.  

I disagree. I think he certainly had all of the songs thought out and he still had them thought out when he restructured them. That is what the physical evidence tells me. Brian also was proud at the time of and explaining publically how he spent a lot of time in advance and planned out each song taking into account the groups strengths and capacities.

He did talk about movements, but movements within songs and not albums.

The albums were well thought out and planned, Brian was also explaining how he also thought out in advance the whole album. He gave an interview after the release of Pet Sounds while he was working on GV and explained “If you take the ‘Pet Sounds’ album as a collection of art pieces, each designed to stand alone yet belong together, you’ll see what I’m aiming at."
Not "was aiming at" but "am aiming at". So not movements within albums but separate songs with movements that were designed to belong together as an album.

That to me all means 12 song album, no album movements, each song well planned out, and the whole album well planned out in the way Brian envisioned it. Probably not the way we envision it.

[John Stivaktas]

I agree Cam. A song like 'Cabin Essence' fully supports what you are saying!

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I agree Cam. A song like 'Cabin Essence' fully supports what you are saying!

Yep. Between Rio and Cam's theories, I personally think Cam's got it closer. I advocate for 2 suites, but even then each suite, I would argue, was to be composed of fully independent tracks. To say SMiLE makes more sense in a 3 movement structure is just flat out wrong. There's so many fanmixes out there that have alternated the structure and I'd argue they all work in their own way. There's some I vastly prefer to BWPS/TSS.

I would agree that the infamous Tracklist is a red herring that was probably made up by Carl, Diane or David Anderle for Capitol's appeasement. Not necessarily made behind Brian's back, but so that he wouldn't have to deal with their nagging. Brian wasn't good with dealing with the business. Aren't there reports of him refusing to leave his room to speak with David about certain ungoing business matters? This seems to be the same type of situation.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

I don't remember what his book said but Al told me in 2000 "IT WAS ACTUALLY JUST A BIZARRE ARRANGEMENT OF "SUNSHINE"
HE MUST HAVE DECIDED LATER TO MAKE HIS OWN SONG OVER THE TRACK ".

My memory is Al said in his book that Brian played them (he and Anderle) a recording of the track just shortly before Pet Sounds was released.

PS. the all caps was Al, not me.

Are you saying that H&V started out as OMP/Sunshine? Wild. Brian did have the H&V music written before VDP came on board--there's that anecdote about him coming up with the opening line on the spot. Could it be Sunshine merely inspired the idea of H&V? A song about lost love?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Sure hope that these Parks acetates provide us smoe new stuff..also would love to hear more BW 66 mixes in decent shape...

But to get to the TOPIC, I prefer an album with songs , not suites... Brian never did those nad I´m certain if an album did get finished in 1966/1967 it would be in line with a handwritten list..some americana some elements songs (for instance DYDW - WC)..not restricted to side A americana side B elements..

Also I wonder where SU belongs? It could certainly be a part of an americana theme, but also elements theme..I wonder...

What makes you so sure of an "elements side/theme" in the first place?

In case of Smile there is absolutely no certainty! 
So, therefore neither can I be certain..I just feel there is some unified theme amongst some songs..but to make myself clear I didn´t write Smile and cerainly I am not BW so my opinioN doesn´t count   
Just wanted to say that these songs somehow go together..if I made myself clear...
For me THE SONGS not suites is the way to go, just so justice can be done to each song itself!
To qoute Mikie: "it was just 12 beautiful tracks with lives of their own. A bunch of songs about a musical journey across America from East to West; about modern American history and culture, including the Wild West. .."
THAT´S RIGHT..

I agree with all of this. Just, I personally dislike your version of a second side. I agree there were linked themes. But I feel like just looking at what was recorded, there's no proof of this "elements side/suite" that seems so popular. I think that LLVS, years of fan speculation and later, BWPS have caused this false connection to be anachronistically applied to the original fragments when there's no real solid evidence for it. And just listening to the recordings and voting with my ears, Chimes, Veggies, Fire and Surf's Up would sound horrible together. There's no flow musically and no bridging themes or anything.