Do you prefer SMiLE as a 3 movements piece or as 12-14 tracks?

[Phoenix]

You bring up an issue at the core of much of the confusion about Smile, sections vs. songs, and this is only amplified when section titles appeared as track titles on the back cover list.  That makes us assume that Brian (assuming Brian was directing Diane or Carl or whomever wrote the list) was planning to turn those sections into songs.  But of course he never did so that leaves room for endless speculation as to what those sections may have been filled out with to make them into songs.

Sure he did.  OMO has been liked with YWMS since the sessions and the Priess books describes Barnyard as being part of it (actually, the other way around).  The problem wasn't amplified when the section titles appeared on the back cover list because they WEREN'T section titles.  They were SONG titles.  The problem WAS amplified when each section was designated with its own title on BWPS. 

You've speculated that the Barnyard suite referred to by Preiss is Old Master Painter/Sunshine with Barnyard at the beginning.  It seems far more likely Barnyard suite is I'm in Great Shape with Barnyard as the fade.  After all,  barnyard was part of Shape when it was in Heroes, so wouldn't those two sections have remained linked when taken out to be a separate song?  I Wanna Be Around/FN has been suggested as another section for Shape, but I find evidence for that to be less than compelling although certainly possible.  There's another section linked with Heroes that would fit in well with the theme of Shape - Do A Lot.  Before it eventually ended up in the new single construction of Vegetables.

Likely or not, evidence shows where it wound up.  Carol Kaye said IWBA was part of The Elements and we know that's not the case.  Or who knows?  Maybe it was at one point.  Remember: Brian didn't RECORD songs.  He recorded sections, with the intent of assembling them INTO songs.  What may have been part of one song one day was put somewhere else the next.  This is the whole reason the album was scrapped.  So much of it fit together so well, Brian couldn't reach a decision on the final order. 

As for "Do A Lot", keep in mind the "Bicycle Rider" theme serves as the chorus to "H&V" but then turns up again in a completely different song.  The same thing happens with the "CIFOTM" chorus reappearing as the tag to "Surf's Up".  Like I said, your mileage may vary but to me, the evidence speaks volumes.

[Bicyclerider]

If you're using TSS first disc or BWPS as your "evidence" because that's "where it ended up,"  that's a weak argument for IWBA being part of Great Shape.  I guess Brian was going to restore the Asher lyrics to GV and the H &V intro was recorded as a Fire intro too, following that reasoning.

I don't remember the quote from Preiss indicating Barnyard was part of Old Master Painter - perhaps you could post that.  And yes, obviously OMP and Sunshine (and the fade) were all originally meant to follow each other - all recorded at the same session.  It's the Barnyard connection I don't follow.

[Phoenix]

If you're using TSS first disc or BWPS as your "evidence"....

Nope.  If you go back to my earlier posts, I said

As for the running order, it's my belief that BWPS came out the way it did because despite the suggestions from Darian that were used, having Van Dyke "finish" the rest of the songs, and using the alternate lyrics for "Good Vibrations" to give us another "new" song, much of it was VERY close to as Brian intended.  Some of the songs flow "too good" to not be what top-of-his-game Brian had intended all along.  For example, BWPS had "Vega-Tables" follow "Workshop" and the Purple Chick version showed us that the intro percussion of the one fit PERFECTLY behind the sound effects of the other.  Why did I ALSO put "Wind Chimes" next in my version?  Because I honestly believe that's probably where Brian intended it to go (and more importantly, because I can't think of any place that sounds better).

As for the Priess "quote", the song described as including OMM/YWMS is referred to as "The Barnyard Suite".

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

This is what I've been listening to ever since the Smile box came out. It's 54 minutes long, but it includes most of my favorite Smile fragments. It's dang tough to pare it down to a satisfying 35 or 40 minutes with so much great material to choose from, so this is my favorite sequence.

Side 1
(Prayer)
1)Worms (with insert of Holidays a la BWPS' On A Holiday)   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWCh80PqEes
2)H&V (a 5:46 Cantina version)
(George Fell Into His French Horn)
3)Surf's Up
4)Good Vibrations
5)Cabin Essence

Side 2
(He Gives Speeches)
1)Wonderful
2)CIFOTM (comprised of Look/CIFOTM)
3)Wind Chimes
4)The Elements ( comprised of Second Day-Air/Mrs, O'Leary-Fire/Dada-Water/IWBA & Workshop- Earth
(Brian Falls Into A Piano)
5)Vege-Tables
(H&V Reprise)
6)IIGS (comprised of IIGS/Barnyard/Do A Lot)
7)The Old Master Painter (comprised of TOMP/YWMS/My Children Were Raised/Barnshine)

So, there are the 12 proper tracks from the back cover slicks and 5 short unlisted links. I've been very satisfied with it. Maybe some day more Smile tapes will come to light, but this will do until that day comes.

I like your use of Psychedelic Sounds. That sounds like a unique order. I'd like to try that out sometime.

[Cam Mott]

Likely or not, evidence shows where it wound up.  Carol Kaye said IWBA was part of The Elements and we know that's not the case.  Or who knows?  Maybe it was at one point.  Remember: Brian didn't RECORD songs.  He recorded sections, with the intent of assembling them INTO songs.  What may have been part of one song one day was put somewhere else the next.  This is the whole reason the album was scrapped.  So much of it fit together so well, Brian couldn't reach a decision on the final order. 

Brian gave evidence/reasons at the time and soon after why the album was scrapped and fitting together was never one of them as far as I remember. That is and always has been entirely fan speculation that has been repeated enough to become a faux fact it seems to me.

The evidence shows the contrary. How pieces fit together in which songs were known by Brian at the time and routinely called out or noted on tapes and boxes etc.

[Jim V.]

If you're using TSS first disc or BWPS as your "evidence" because that's "where it ended up,"  that's a weak argument for IWBA being part of Great Shape.  I guess Brian was going to restore the Asher lyrics to GV and the H &V intro was recorded as a Fire intro too, following that reasoning.

I don't remember the quote from Preiss indicating Barnyard was part of Old Master Painter - perhaps you could post that.  And yes, obviously OMP and Sunshine (and the fade) were all originally meant to follow each other - all recorded at the same session.  It's the Barnyard connection I don't follow.

I think what Phoenix is thinking is how Priore was saying that "Barnyard" was part of "Old Master Painter" or whatever, but I think what Priore might have meant was FALSE barnyard. At the time I'm pretty sure people thought that the western style part that ended the early version of "Heroes And Villains" or The SMiLE Sessions version of "My Only Sunshine". And I think THAT is where the confusion comes from.*


*Note that I haven't read any of Priore's stuff in a while, so it's possible I'm off the mark.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

That's how it was conceived, that's how it was almost produced...

I would really love to see your documentary proof for this unequivocal statement. The back slick list wasn't in Brian's handwriting, nor was it in any order... but you say you know the track sequence. How ?

OK.  Bear with me, as I'm not trying to be snarky at all.  Obviously there's no way I could know the way things REALLY went down without being there but there's a lot of stuff that when looked at realistically, just makes "too much sense" to be wrong.  Regardless of the handwriting, that list was either dictated or authorized by Brian to be sent to Capitol, for them to use as the OFFICIAL list of songs for their new album.  Things fell apart, Brian didn't finish the album, and it was scrapped but that doesn't change the fact that those 12 songs (plus "Our Prayer" and any other "hidden tracks" he may have also included) were what Brian intended to put on the upcoming album.  I'll get to the running order shortly but there's far more concrete evidence (mainly the slicks) saying "those were the songs Brian intended for Smile in early 1967, with the album's release looming" than anything proving they weren't.  

(Our Prayer - hidden "intro to the album")
Heroes And Villains (intro/Cantina version through tape explosion/single version from first chorus/ending bits I can't remember the names of)
Do You Like Worms (with discarded vocal line)
The Old Master Painter (Barnyard/TOMP/Barnshine fade)
Wonderful
Child Is Father Of The Man (includes both Look and CIFTTM)
Cabinessence

(You're Welcome - depending on my mood)
Good Vibrations
I'm In Great Shape (IIGS/I Wanna Be around/Workshop)
Vega-Tables
Wind Chimes
The Elements (Mrs O'Leary's Cow - the intro/Air/Earth/Water)*
Surf's Up (sung by Brian without Reilly's lyrics/Al's vocal at the end)

* I have no idea what Brian intended for "The Elements", other than what I parenthetically listed above, nor do I know the order beyond MOC coming first.  

Eh. See, this is what I don't understand. Why is everyone so dead-set on this elements suite/side? There was initially one single track called "the elements" that was never properly assembled, much less written. Where and why did this whole Elements suite come into the SMiLE cannon? Why this obsession with putting Chimes and Veggies together? They sound nothing alike, it's such a jarring transition (as is Chimes into Cow.) You shoehorned a song about Children and loss of innocence into the Americana songs and tacked Surf's Up on at the end of these "element songs" that have nothing to do with it. To each his own, of course, but I resent the way you offer a pretty unoriginal sequence and claim this is the way it was always supposed to go.

I just don't see it, and this illustrates why I called "The Elements" the scourge of SMiLE Mixers. It's so overemphasized, we waste so much time trying to hamfist unrelated bits together because of half-assed 'well this sounds like air to me' type reasoning instead of being imaginative with the material. The Elements is a red herring. Just put the pieces you want to use in places where they sound good.

As I highlighted above, I agree with what I believe is most of what you do.  I see "The Elements" as a single song, comprised of four section, of which only one was completed.  We know "Fire (MOC)" was "'The Elements' part one" but most evidence suggest that at best, Brian never told anyone what he intended for the other parts and at worst, never even got around to composing them.  I don't think of "Wind Chimes" and "Vega-Tables" as neither part of "The Elements" (song) or an elements suite.  Where I think our opinions differ is I don't think there were ANY suites, Americana, loss/innocence, or anything.  Sure there were themes Brian and Van Dyke were exploring here and there but I don't think those themes dictated the album's order order in any overwhelming way.  Like "Sloop John B" and the title track's placement on Pet Sounds, I think Brian's personal preference was what mattered most in that regard.

ETC.

I'm not in the mood for typing out a real long, in-depth reply to you right now as I usually would. When I am, I will edit this. Just wanted you to know I read this and agree with a good chunk of what you have to say. The fact that you concede that The Elements was an unfinished track and not like a suite, that really makes me appreciate where you're coming from a lot more, even if I still disagree with things like putting Veggies and Chimes together. To be continued.

Thanks! I look forward to more back and forth.  

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you. Yeah, as I said before, I think it's refreshing you're not proposing an elements suite (which I personally see no evidence for) but no suites, just an elements track (which I think there's plenty of evidence for.) It seems we can agree on Great Shape's fate as well.

I mean, when we get right down to it, there's plenty of truth in what you and a lot of other people have said in this thread--that there's no proof of suites or that H&V/Worms/CE and Surf/Child/Wonderful come on the same side. But to that I ask...doesn't it just sound better that way? Chimes, Child, Wonderful and Surf's Up all feature prominent horns and deal with themes of life and love, but each turned on its head. Chimes sounds like a celebration of the little things but it's also about anticipating death as life uneventfully passes you by. And then there's Child, already pondering how the baby's upbringing will influence their life, Wonderful which is about the damaging emotional effects of purely physical love contrasted to the healthy emotional love of family (which I interpret as a critique of the more reckless aspects of the budding free love movement and "don't trust anyone over 30" sentiment.) Surf's Up harkens back to the stark simplicity of the early hits. Call me crazy, but the music...the themes...the style...it all just seems to fit.

And then look at the other side. All the sweeping, dramatic moments harkening back to the earth, Americana and danger (bullets brought her down, to the church of the American Indian, coolies working on the railroad) yet the comical touch. Vega-Tables shares the same off the wall uptempo feel, yet with enough dark undertones (stoner references) to be H&V's musical twin. Smiley seems to confirm this, too. I think a bombastic, sweeping "uptempo darkness" Side One works with more slowed down, subdued, "upfront emotional" Side Two.

This kind of LP structure has precedent with Today. If you ignore all the decades of "facts" echo-chambering and perhaps given more weight than they deserve, and just jump in and listen to the music with an open mind, I think it makes a lot more sense this way. And it then makes sense when Brian said "a third movement" was what allowed him to finish SMiLE, not just "movements" in general.

Maybe side one was meant to be a warning/message to the budding social movement--our ancestors abused the Elements and allowed for the destruction of a culture and nature, lets not repeat the past. And side two is exploring the old Beach Boys themes (Love for a woman, nostalgia, surfing) but with obvious sophisticated twists. I just think it makes sense, as opposed to Wonderful arbitrarily coming after Cabin Essence or Veggies and Chimes following one another, for example.

The only problem with this is Great Shape, Elements, OMP are all unfinished yet expected to be on this LP. I'd argue OMP was abandoned once the tag became part of Heroes. I'd argue the Elements track is what broke the back of the album. I'd argue that given enough time, Dada had a better chance appearing on a finished album than Great Shape, and I don't think GV totally fits on either side in this context. But each mix, it seems, always has its compromises justified by logical leaps of faith.

If we're gonna go further and give equal weight to recorded segments like Psychedelic Sounds and statements like lots of spoken word humor on the LP, there's the various chants, comedy sketches and atmospheric vocal experiments to fill in the gaps. These can be roughly grouped into Stoners traveling America/expressing the elements and becoming one with their instruments/reliving childhood like with basketball sounds and ice cream man. These would fit with, and add another dimension to, the ideas expressed on sides one and two. The lighthearted stoners getting in veggie fights and talking to the cab driver would be a nice counterpoint to scary music like Fire from the elements and Worms. The old rock star dreams/cliches they'd be experimenting with on Side Two could include the idea of becoming one with your music, turned on its head like the falling into your horn or a piano gags.

I'm just an advocate for ignoring all facts about how it was supposed to happen, and letting my ears vote for me unbiased. I think if everyone did the same, we'd have a better idea rather than blindly following LLVS and the years of self-referencing 'evidence.'

[John Manning]

… I think the reason you guys are in the minority on that point is because Heroes was undeniably going to be the big single, and tradition dictates that that lead off the sides of an LP.

The second single, surely?

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

… I think the reason you guys are in the minority on that point is because Heroes was undeniably going to be the big single, and tradition dictates that that lead off the sides of an LP.

The second single, surely?

True. Even though I prefer it as the beginning, there's no proof the Americana side would be Side One. And there's no proof H&Vs would be the first track either way. But popular tradition, Smiley Smile and BWPS all point to Heroes being the first main track, hence why the idea is so prevalent whether it's accurate or not.

I'd be curious to whether or not there's any contemporary evidence of Prayer and Heroes being the same track. It's structured that way on the boxset but is there proof that was the idea in the sixties? Because if there is, that'd seal the deal in my opinion (even if I personally think You're Welcome works better as an opener to H&V.) But if there's none, maybe GV would be the opener.

[Phoenix]

Likely or not, evidence shows where it wound up.  Carol Kaye said IWBA was part of The Elements and we know that's not the case.  Or who knows?  Maybe it was at one point.  Remember: Brian didn't RECORD songs.  He recorded sections, with the intent of assembling them INTO songs.  What may have been part of one song one day was put somewhere else the next.  This is the whole reason the album was scrapped.  So much of it fit together so well, Brian couldn't reach a decision on the final order.

Brian gave evidence/reasons at the time and soon after why the album was scrapped and fitting together was never one of them as far as I remember. That is and always has been entirely fan speculation that has been repeated enough to become a faux fact it seems to me.

The evidence shows the contrary. How pieces fit together in which songs were known by Brian at the time and routinely called out or noted on tapes and boxes etc.

Like I said, I'm positive Brian knew where most of the stuff was going from the start.  That's why I think so many of the songs were in place long, long, long before BWPS.  I do however think that he did manage to get too hung up on the singles, and possibly "The Elements" and "Surf's Up", which led to him being unable to finish the rest of the album.  My guess is he didn't feel it had got away from him but after the release date had moved and moved, culminating with Derek announcing things had been scrapped, Brian felt that the moment had passed and decided to shelve it and move on to the next, less stressful, less ambitious project and take the band into the more stripped down, vocal based sound.

[John Manning]

Likely or not, evidence shows where it wound up.  Carol Kaye said IWBA was part of The Elements and we know that's not the case.  Or who knows?  Maybe it was at one point.  Remember: Brian didn't RECORD songs.  He recorded sections, with the intent of assembling them INTO songs.  What may have been part of one song one day was put somewhere else the next.  This is the whole reason the album was scrapped.  So much of it fit together so well, Brian couldn't reach a decision on the final order.

Brian gave evidence/reasons at the time and soon after why the album was scrapped and fitting together was never one of them as far as I remember. That is and always has been entirely fan speculation that has been repeated enough to become a faux fact it seems to me.

The evidence shows the contrary. How pieces fit together in which songs were known by Brian at the time and routinely called out or noted on tapes and boxes etc.

Like I said, I'm positive Brian knew where most of the stuff was going from the start.  That's why I think so many of the songs were in place long, long, long before BWPS.  I do however think that he did manage too hung up on the singles, and possibly "The Elements" and "Surf's Up", which led to him being unable to finish the rest of the album.  My guess is he didn't feel it had got away from him but after the release date had moved and moved, culminating with Derek announcing things had been scrapped, Brian felt that the moment had passed and decided to shelve it and move on to the next, less stressful, less ambitious project and take the band into the more stripped down, vocal based sound.

I think a good, long, brain-clearing holiday before starting might have helped. Projects must have been blurring into one another with no defined edges. Everything, to me, points to stress, too many cooks laughing from the sides, too much opinion coming from all directions; anyone would throw in the towel with all that going on.

Bands today take years to come up with half-decent albums and complain about how stressful life is, and how they need that creative space. Brian was churning out works of genius just months apart with no recovery time, little personal space.

If you'd asked Brian back then whether he was planning a 12-track album or a series of suites, he'd've likely said that he wasn't sure where all the tracks would end up, and referred you to Marilyn with regard to the question about furniture buying.

[Phoenix]

Absolutely!

[Cam Mott]

Likely or not, evidence shows where it wound up.  Carol Kaye said IWBA was part of The Elements and we know that's not the case.  Or who knows?  Maybe it was at one point.  Remember: Brian didn't RECORD songs.  He recorded sections, with the intent of assembling them INTO songs.  What may have been part of one song one day was put somewhere else the next.  This is the whole reason the album was scrapped.  So much of it fit together so well, Brian couldn't reach a decision on the final order.

Brian gave evidence/reasons at the time and soon after why the album was scrapped and fitting together was never one of them as far as I remember. That is and always has been entirely fan speculation that has been repeated enough to become a faux fact it seems to me.

The evidence shows the contrary. How pieces fit together in which songs were known by Brian at the time and routinely called out or noted on tapes and boxes etc.

Like I said, I'm positive Brian knew where most of the stuff was going from the start.  That's why I think so many of the songs were in place long, long, long before BWPS.  I do however think that he did manage too hung up on the singles, and possibly "The Elements" and "Surf's Up", which led to him being unable to finish the rest of the album.  My guess is he didn't feel it had got away from him but after the release date had moved and moved, culminating with Derek announcing things had been scrapped, Brian felt that the moment had passed and decided to shelve it and move on to the next, less stressful, less ambitious project and take the band into the more stripped down, vocal based sound.

I think a good, long, brain-clearing holiday before starting might have helped. Projects must have been blurring into one another with no defined edges. Everything, to me, points to stress, too many cooks laughing from the sides, too much opinion coming from all directions; anyone would throw in the towel with all that going on.

Bands today take years to come up with half-decent albums and complain about how stressful life is, and how they need that creative space. Brian was churning out works of genius just months apart with no recovery time, little personal space.

If you'd asked Brian back then whether he was planning a 12-track album or a series of suites, he'd've likely said that he wasn't sure where all the tracks would end up, and referred you to Marilyn with regard to the question about furniture buying.

I feel it was the opposite. Imo, Brian was very deliberate and focused and what to do was never the problem but what he was doing was the problem. To me it looks like Brian got caught up in competing with the Beatles and Dylan et al and he collected some people he thought could help him do that and it went great early on and they were impressing each other but then as it did not ring true to Brian's muse he began to regret his plans and got back to being true to his muse. In spite of his collaborators, band-mates, employees, label, whoever, wishing he would keep at SMiLE.

[Paul J B]

… I think the reason you guys are in the minority on that point is because Heroes was undeniably going to be the big single, and tradition dictates that that lead off the sides of an LP.

The second single, surely?

True. Even though I prefer it as the beginning, there's no proof the Americana side would be Side One. And there's no proof H&Vs would be the first track either way. But popular tradition, Smiley Smile and BWPS all point to Heroes being the first main track, hence why the idea is so prevalent whether it's accurate or not.

I'd be curious to whether or not there's any contemporary evidence of Prayer and Heroes being the same track. It's structured that way on the boxset but is there proof that was the idea in the sixties? Because if there is, that'd seal the deal in my opinion (even if I personally think You're Welcome works better as an opener to H&V.) But if there's none, maybe GV would be the opener.

I believe in remembering correctly that Brian clearly states that Prayer is an intro to the album. This is heard on the original tape from TSS. I think that is a great piece of evidence shinning light on how Brian intended to open the record. That being said, I think prayer could lead into GV or H&V to start the album.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

… I think the reason you guys are in the minority on that point is because Heroes was undeniably going to be the big single, and tradition dictates that that lead off the sides of an LP.

The second single, surely?

True. Even though I prefer it as the beginning, there's no proof the Americana side would be Side One. And there's no proof H&Vs would be the first track either way. But popular tradition, Smiley Smile and BWPS all point to Heroes being the first main track, hence why the idea is so prevalent whether it's accurate or not.

I'd be curious to whether or not there's any contemporary evidence of Prayer and Heroes being the same track. It's structured that way on the boxset but is there proof that was the idea in the sixties? Because if there is, that'd seal the deal in my opinion (even if I personally think You're Welcome works better as an opener to H&V.) But if there's none, maybe GV would be the opener.

I believe in remembering correctly that Brian clearly states that Prayer is an intro to the album. This is heard on the original tape from TSS. I think that is a great piece of evidence shinning light on how Brian intended to open the record. That being said, I think prayer could lead into GV or H&V to start the album.

Right, he says point blank "this is the intro to the album." I'm just curious if there's definitive proof circa '66-'67 if the track Prayer was meant to intro was indeed H&V. I used to put the two together without even thinking about it because that's the way it's always been done, the boxset implies that Prayer is yet another Heroes segment, etc. But now I've come to question this myself. I've come to prefer You're Welcome as the opener to Heroes, and while that's probably not a vintage idea, Brian did record a "H&V intro (now known as the fire intro) so it doesn't seem 100% certain Prayer go into Heroes either way. I haven't tried it yet, but supposedly Prayer sounds great leading into GV instead. Could that have been the lead track then?

[Sheriff John Stone]

… I think the reason you guys are in the minority on that point is because Heroes was undeniably going to be the big single, and tradition dictates that that lead off the sides of an LP.

The second single, surely?

True. Even though I prefer it as the beginning, there's no proof the Americana side would be Side One. And there's no proof H&Vs would be the first track either way. But popular tradition, Smiley Smile and BWPS all point to Heroes being the first main track, hence why the idea is so prevalent whether it's accurate or not.

I'd be curious to whether or not there's any contemporary evidence of Prayer and Heroes being the same track. It's structured that way on the boxset but is there proof that was the idea in the sixties? Because if there is, that'd seal the deal in my opinion (even if I personally think You're Welcome works better as an opener to H&V.) But if there's none, maybe GV would be the opener.

I believe in remembering correctly that Brian clearly states that Prayer is an intro to the album. This is heard on the original tape from TSS. I think that is a great piece of evidence shinning light on how Brian intended to open the record. That being said, I think prayer could lead into GV or H&V to start the album.

Right, he says point blank "this is the intro to the album." I'm just curious if there's definitive proof circa '66-'67 if the track Prayer was meant to intro was indeed H&V. I used to put the two together without even thinking about it because that's the way it's always been done, the boxset implies that Prayer is yet another Heroes segment, etc. But now I've come to question this myself. I've come to prefer You're Welcome as the opener to Heroes, and while that's probably not a vintage idea, Brian did record a "H&V intro (now known as the fire intro) so it doesn't seem 100% certain Prayer go into Heroes either way. I haven't tried it yet, but supposedly Prayer sounds great leading into GV instead. Could that have been the lead track then?

Mujan, I'm glad you came around to STARTING with "You're Welcome"....at least for now.

You know, there isn't much that we know about "You're Welcome". I have rarely seen it discussed in depth. Some questions always come to mind. What does the song mean? You're welcome to come on the pilgrims voyage? You're welcome to come on the SMiLE trip? Or, You're welcome to come nowhere in particular, it just sounded good?

Also, was it just a song, or was it a song that Brian composed to be the specific B-side of "Heroes And Villains"? Is "You're Welcome" and "Heroes And Villains" connected other than sharing the vinyl 45? It is interesting that "You're Welcome" was just the B-side of "Heroes And Villains" single and not included on Smiley Smile. Brian didn't record many B-sides only, but he did that time.

[Mikie]

Brian gave evidence/reasons at the time and soon after why the album was scrapped and fitting together was never one of them as far as I remember. That is and always has been entirely fan speculation that has been repeated enough to become a faux fact it seems to me.

Cam, I always thought that was pretty much fact. I can't remember if Brian ever said it was an issue - maybe he did - but I always thought that was one of the main reasons he scrapped it. If we're to go along with the 12 separate tracks theory, then the inability to assemble the puzzle parts together into one cohesive album almost becomes mute. As indicated by fan mixes and BWPS and TSS, it can be done. But I thought I read an interview somewhere with more than one person (Linett, Boyd, Sahanaja?) that there was so many segments/fragments and the 'lack of technology' at the time was a consideration along with indecisiveness in putting it all together. Smile 101 stuff, I know. 

[Cam Mott]

Brian gave evidence/reasons at the time and soon after why the album was scrapped and fitting together was never one of them as far as I remember. That is and always has been entirely fan speculation that has been repeated enough to become a faux fact it seems to me.

Cam, I always thought that was pretty much fact. I can't remember if Brian ever said it was an issue - maybe he did - but I always thought that was one of the main reasons he scrapped it. If we're to go along with the 12 separate tracks theory, then the inability to assemble the puzzle parts together into one cohesive album almost becomes mute. As indicated by fan mixes and BWPS and TSS, it can be done. But I thought I read an interview somewhere with more than one person (Linett, Boyd, Sahanaja?) that there was so many segments/fragments and the 'lack of technology' at the time was a consideration along with indecisiveness in putting it all together. Smile 101 stuff, I know. 

Maybe someone will come up with something Brain said close to the event I'm forgetting but I don't think so. As you said, it seems to be exclusively fan speculation based on a presumption that Brian didn't know what he wanted or didn't know how to do what he wanted or was always considering everything for everything. I'm saying the people around him and the musician and engineer memories of the period and call outs on the recordings and notes and notations all over the tapes etc. show Brian knew what he was doing. To me he didn't quit because he couldn't, he quit because he didn't want to.

[Bicyclerider]

If you're using TSS first disc or BWPS as your "evidence"....

Nope.  If you go back to my earlier posts, I said

As for the running order, it's my belief that BWPS came out the way it did because despite the suggestions from Darian that were used, having Van Dyke "finish" the rest of the songs, and using the alternate lyrics for "Good Vibrations" to give us another "new" song, much of it was VERY close to as Brian intended.  Some of the songs flow "too good" to not be what top-of-his-game Brian had intended all along.  For example, BWPS had "Vega-Tables" follow "Workshop" and the Purple Chick version showed us that the intro percussion of the one fit PERFECTLY behind the sound effects of the other.  Why did I ALSO put "Wind Chimes" next in my version?  Because I honestly believe that's probably where Brian intended it to go (and more importantly, because I can't think of any place that sounds better).

As for the Priess "quote", the song described as including OMM/YWMS is referred to as "The Barnyard Suite".

Ok I see where you're coming from.  Because certain pieces not originally connected in 67 by Brian or noted as being connected by people involved with Smile in 66-67 sound good together in later fan mixes and were put together subsequently by Darian and Brian when making Smile into a live "suite" and you believe they sound right together, then that must have been Brian's original intention.  I shouldn't have to point out the faulty logic of that reasoning but consider it noted.

Yes when the Preiss book came out the "Barnyard" in circulation on boot and on the Preiss tape was later found not to be Barnyard at all but the fade or OMP/Sunshine - hence it being referred to subsequently as "false Barnyard."  So Barnyard is not linked  to OMP at all.

Cam's point is well taken -  Brian was recording sections and he knew what he wanted to record but particularly with the more complex songs like Heroes he was dissatisfied with what he had recorded and kept recording alternate sections without having the computer tools we have now to try different combinations of sections to see how they worked.  With GV he managed to edit the sections together to his satisfaction but left dozens of recorded sections on the cutting room floor.  We assume all the sections of Smile songs we know we're going to fit in somewhere, but clearly that wouldn't have been the case.

[The Demon]

Ok I see where you're coming from.  Because certain pieces not originally connected in 67 by Brian or noted as being connected by people involved with Smile in 66-67 sound good together in later fan mixes and were put together subsequently by Darian and Brian when making Smile into a live "suite" and you believe they sound right together, then that must have been Brian's original intention.  I shouldn't have to point out the faulty logic of that reasoning but consider it noted.

For what it's worth, Darian believed the "second movement" was what Brian always had in mind, based on his reaction to Darian playing those pieces together.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Ok I see where you're coming from.  Because certain pieces not originally connected in 67 by Brian or noted as being connected by people involved with Smile in 66-67 sound good together in later fan mixes and were put together subsequently by Darian and Brian when making Smile into a live "suite" and you believe they sound right together, then that must have been Brian's original intention.  I shouldn't have to point out the faulty logic of that reasoning but consider it noted.

For what it's worth, Darian believed the "second movement" was what Brian always had in mind, based on his reaction to Darian playing those pieces together.

I criticize the sequence a lot, but there are genuine moments of brilliance on par with "Brian at his peak." I agree with Phoenix on that. I don't see BWPS as 'Darian's fanmix' as some do. More like 'Brian's fanmix' in that, I believe Brian sat down, reexamined the material for the first time in years if not decades, and put the pieces together in a way he thought sounded good. I don't believe he dug out any long lost plans for SMiLE circa '66, but there are some things that came back to him as they went along. I think the Second Movement is the best example of this. Those songs (possibly sans Look) were made to be together, as far as I'm concerned.

The first suite is good too, but it's kind of hampered by all the fragments I suspect wouldve been cut back in the day. Any tracks originally intended for the other 2 suites that could work in an element themed context were repurposed for the new third movement. Hence why the second sounds amazing, but the first and third are flawed (though still very good, of course.) Just some more speculation.

I do think theres a lot of weight behind that quote where Brian says "a third movement" was what allowed him to finish the album. Notice, he doesn't say "movements" just the addition of the third suite, the elements suite. For whatever reason, expressing the elements musically was an essential piece of SMiLE to Brian. That's why I believe the fear of fire/failure to craft the other three sections of the initial track was such a big setback. It's around this time VDP leaves, focus shifts to the singles and the album comes apart. Brian just couldn't find a way to do the Elements as a four part instrumental, it threw the original plan of the album out of whack, and a restructured 3 suite album didn't cross his mind yet and/or was impossible in the sixties with the vinyl single LP format.

This could explain why, according to Peter Reum, Brian said he thought it should be 3 suites in 1981 and why it ended up that way in 2003.

I'm repeating myself here, but I really think this could explain a lot if true. The suites were always a thing, but the initial idea was for 2, not 3 and the suites in the sixties wouldve just been a side of musically/thematically/stylistically linked stand-alone tracks.

[alf wiedersehen]

It would have been interesting to have three different suite/movements on only two sides of vinyl. They clearly had trouble with that also on BWPS.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

Brian gave evidence/reasons at the time and soon after why the album was scrapped and fitting together was never one of them as far as I remember. That is and always has been entirely fan speculation that has been repeated enough to become a faux fact it seems to me.

Cam, I always thought that was pretty much fact. I can't remember if Brian ever said it was an issue - maybe he did - but I always thought that was one of the main reasons he scrapped it. If we're to go along with the 12 separate tracks theory, then the inability to assemble the puzzle parts together into one cohesive album almost becomes mute. As indicated by fan mixes and BWPS and TSS, it can be done. But I thought I read an interview somewhere with more than one person (Linett, Boyd, Sahanaja?) that there was so many segments/fragments and the 'lack of technology' at the time was a consideration along with indecisiveness in putting it all together. Smile 101 stuff, I know. 

Maybe someone will come up with something Brain said close to the event I'm forgetting but I don't think so. As you said, it seems to be exclusively fan speculation based on a presumption that Brian didn't know what he wanted or didn't know how to do what he wanted or was always considering everything for everything. I'm saying the people around him and the musician and engineer memories of the period and call outs on the recordings and notes and notations all over the tapes etc. show Brian knew what he was doing. To me he didn't quit because he couldn't, he quit because he didn't want to.

I agree with you. Brian wasn't just recording feels Willy nilly, and while I don't think we'll ever know what it was for certain, I do think there was a master plan at some point even if it's since been lost to time, drugs and mental illness.

However, I think somewhere along the line (January '67 most likely) the original idea was scrapped and that's when the chaos and distractions begin. My personal theory is that the fear of fire, dissatisfaction with the Elements lead to a gaping hole which threw everything off. This next part isn't as certain in my mind, but perhaps the Psychedelic Sounds experiments were meant to play a larger role but VDP and the Boys' disapproval lead to the abandonment of the idea and Brian doubting the whole plan itself.

The concept of an Elements 4 part instrumental track was the first thing that was abandoned. Eventually, Brian decides to compensate by fleshing it out to a suite of multiple tracks (hence Dada getting reworked from the H&V segment it had been) but by then it was too late, and too complex for a single LP to do justice, so Brian said screw it and started over.

Smiley isn't SMiLE, but I think it's a good indicator of what Brian's spoken word humor and off the wall crazy skits might've been like in SMiLE. This is all just me playing detective, but I think it makes sense and ties up some of the SMiLE contradictions.

[Mujan, 8@$+@Rc| of a Blue Wizard]

It would have been interesting to have three different suite/movements on only two sides of vinyl. They clearly had trouble with that also on BWPS.

It's just not possible, in my opinion. Either you put two together and leave one by itself. Or you split a suite and defeat the whole purpose, or you use 3 sides of vinyl which wastes space. One of the many reasons I'm not a fan of the 3 suites idea. If Brian wasn't satisfied with his original concept of a four part instrumental, I wish he'd have just worked with what he had. Fire is completely mind-blowing even by itself. The idea of fleshing it out with the H&V intro didn't come until later, but it might've made a nice fade to H&V if false barnyard were used in OMP and Barnyard in Great Shape. Include a fleshed out Dada or perhaps the Veggie fights into a full track and boom, you've got your 12 tracks. Then you can just say the elements is a bridging theme that ties the two otherwise distinct sides together.

[Crow]

Without a doubt 12 tracks

Prayer
1.Heroes and Villains
2. Do you dig worms
3. Wonderful
4. Child is Father to the Man
5. Old Master Painter
6. CabinEssence

7. Good Vibrations
8. Vega-Tables
9. Wind Chimes
10. Mrs. O'leary's Cow
11. I love to say Dada
12. Surf's Up