David Marks' initial non-involvement in C50

[Jon Stebbins]

We obviously know that Dave was invited in the end, and this made total sense for all parties involved. For fans, it makes sense to get all five of those guys together. For the band, especially Brian, Mike, and to some degree Al, it also provided a stronger connection to the band’s past. For promoters and the record label, it was stronger marketing to present a five-man reunion lineup rather than four.

But looking at the different edits of the “Do It Again” film perhaps ignores the fact that that initial 2011 session was scheduled and undertaken without Dave. It isn’t just that an early, never-intended-for-release edit of the film doesn’t show Dave. The interesting (and yes, ultimately inconsequential, again, this is just nerd trivia at this stage) question is why wasn’t Dave invited to the first session? By all accounts, he was not called; it doesn’t appear he simply couldn’t make it due to scheduling. It would be interesting to know whether initial plans specifically did not call for him to be involved, or if they always planned to have him involved, but maybe not to such a large degree. But if the reunion was ultimately going to move forward, this first session would be the first unveiling, the first footage of all of these guys making music together in 15 or so years. If they planned all along to have Dave as a full-fledged member for any eventual reunion, it would be odd to leave him out of that first session, that first footage of all the guys singing around one microphone.

I always viewed that first 2011 “Do It Again” session as truly a “test” or “experiment.” Those guys can knock that song out in their sleep, so it wasn’t challenging musically. The question was how they would function in the studio, and could they get through a session and play nice. So I always assumed Dave wasn’t needed for that purpose. He’s the only one of those guys who has, by virtue of being out of the band for most of its dicey years and not being involved in the corporate structure, remained pretty immune to the politics and backbiting and all of that. There probably was never any question about whether Dave could “play nice” with the other guys, so he wasn’t needed for that “experimental” session. One could argue they all might play a little nicer with Dave in there (sort of the Billy Preston in “Let It Be” effect), but if they could get along in that initial session, then Dave would not be any problem interpersonally.

But it seems likely, to me, that someone involved in putting that reunion together in its initial stages, was not taking David Marks into full consideration from the get-go, for whatever reason.

And as I said up the thread, if that was the case it was over-ruled by the other principals...specifically Brian who did not want the DIA session released in it's initial form. Once David was on it he was cool with the track/video going public. It wasn't real until it was real. The reunion process was negotiated in piece by piece. Everything was in place by the time it went public.

[HeyJude]

We obviously know that Dave was invited in the end, and this made total sense for all parties involved. For fans, it makes sense to get all five of those guys together. For the band, especially Brian, Mike, and to some degree Al, it also provided a stronger connection to the band’s past. For promoters and the record label, it was stronger marketing to present a five-man reunion lineup rather than four.

But looking at the different edits of the “Do It Again” film perhaps ignores the fact that that initial 2011 session was scheduled and undertaken without Dave. It isn’t just that an early, never-intended-for-release edit of the film doesn’t show Dave. The interesting (and yes, ultimately inconsequential, again, this is just nerd trivia at this stage) question is why wasn’t Dave invited to the first session? By all accounts, he was not called; it doesn’t appear he simply couldn’t make it due to scheduling. It would be interesting to know whether initial plans specifically did not call for him to be involved, or if they always planned to have him involved, but maybe not to such a large degree. But if the reunion was ultimately going to move forward, this first session would be the first unveiling, the first footage of all of these guys making music together in 15 or so years. If they planned all along to have Dave as a full-fledged member for any eventual reunion, it would be odd to leave him out of that first session, that first footage of all the guys singing around one microphone.

I always viewed that first 2011 “Do It Again” session as truly a “test” or “experiment.” Those guys can knock that song out in their sleep, so it wasn’t challenging musically. The question was how they would function in the studio, and could they get through a session and play nice. So I always assumed Dave wasn’t needed for that purpose. He’s the only one of those guys who has, by virtue of being out of the band for most of its dicey years and not being involved in the corporate structure, remained pretty immune to the politics and backbiting and all of that. There probably was never any question about whether Dave could “play nice” with the other guys, so he wasn’t needed for that “experimental” session. One could argue they all might play a little nicer with Dave in there (sort of the Billy Preston in “Let It Be” effect), but if they could get along in that initial session, then Dave would not be any problem interpersonally.

But it seems likely, to me, that someone involved in putting that reunion together in its initial stages, was not taking David Marks into full consideration from the get-go, for whatever reason.

And as I said up the thread, if that was the case it was over-ruled by the other principals...specifically Brian who did not want the DIA session released in it's initial form. Once David was on it he was cool with the track/video going public. It wasn't real until it was real. The reunion process was negotiated in piece by piece. Everything was in place by the time it went public.

All true. I think what's being discussed here is a bunch of "what-if's", which are of limited importance, but it's what the fans talk about sometimes. What if David had joined in 1971? What if Dave had been on "Pet Sounds", etc. This is the "what if they hadn't had Dave on the reunion tour?" question, which is a question prompted only by the apparent fact that at some stage somebody in the organization was considering that plan, either specifically to not include Dave or simply out of ignorance. The fact that the guys did an initial session without him doesn't prove anything, but suggests they too considered such a plan. We all know that ultimately wasn't the plan, and may well never have been. But that initial session is an interesting anomaly, if for no other reason than to indicate that someone running the project potentially wasn't on the same page as the actual band members.

It's also interesting in light of all of this that the DIA remake was barely even a "released record"; it was done apparently as a "test" to get the guys back together, and an online promotional tool to start off the reunion project. The fact that the actual recording was ever officially commercially released was an afterthought apparently, relegated as a bonus track on a Walmart hits CD (and the Japan edition of TWGMTR).

[Pretty Funky]

I guess there was always the chance Dave may been a 'guest' during the C50 on songs he played on originally, not unlike Blondie during the BAD tour last year, but thankfully wise heads prevailed. 

[Jim V.]

I think the Dave thing comes down to this....the last "real" Beach Boys lineup prior to 2012 that actually created anything consisted of Brian, Mike, Carl, Al and Bruce. And I wouldn't doubt that in a sense that the guys kinda felt like it was picking the group back up from where they left off. And honestly, David Marks wasn't really part of that continuum. He wasn't really part of the story since '63. Sure, he played in Mike's "Beach Boys band" from '97 to '99 or whatever, but prior to the reunion, he was more of a "former member" like Blondie and Ricky, than a member like Brian and Al, who although weren't in the touring lineup, still had (and still have) a whole lot of say in what The Beach Boys will release and whatnot.

I think that's what it comes down to. It's kinda like if The Byrds decide to get back together for their 50th anniversary. Obviously, a truly reconstituted Byrds would include Jim McGuinn, Chris Hillman and David Crosby. Now while it would be cool to have Gene Parsons (who was a long term members of The Byrds) and John York (who also was a member of the group for a time), I would understand if they weren't included as they aren't quite as "in the loop" as the main three. And they weren't involved in any of The Byrds work that has been done since 1973. So I think that kinda relates to Dave's situation pretty well.

However, don't get me wrong. I'm very happy that Dave was part of the reunited Beach Boys. I'm glad he got to make his mark (no pun intended) with the group again. And it seems that because of the reunion he has gotten closer with Brian (and Al) again, and is working closer with them these days. It's great.

[Sound of Free]

I can't imagine why the band would consent to filming a music video without a member (and have the music video edited) if there wasn't at least the possibility, or a moment in time, that the member was not going to be part of the proceedings.

These are the Beach Boys, so not everything has to make sense. In 1965, some people probably saw Summer Days in the record store and thought, "Al Jardine left the band again?"

[CenturyDeprived]

I can't imagine why the band would consent to filming a music video without a member (and have the music video edited) if there wasn't at least the possibility, or a moment in time, that the member was not going to be part of the proceedings.

These are the Beach Boys, so not everything has to make sense. In 1965, some people probably saw Summer Days in the record store and thought, "Al Jardine left the band again?"

This is true; the band has a history of doing odd things like this, a la the Summer Days cover. But I guess the notable difference in this case as opposed to the missing Al Summer Days incident, is that this was very specifically a "reunion", and it would seem that the sole purpose of the video being created itself was to highlight the band members coming back together (thus making the absence of a member all the more seemingly puzzling).  

In the world of the BBs, not everything makes apparent "sense", but I'm certain there were/are reasons (however ill-thought-out) that caused Al's absence and David's absence to get "approval" by the people calling the shots. No way these were arbitrary decisions; politics/relationships/group dynamics were surely involved (and as I noted in a different thread, there's no way I could conceive that the Summer Days album cover shoot would have gone on as planned if, say, Dennis or Mike were sick; it would have been rescheduled). I have to think Al still had a second-class BB status to some degree at that time, which probably enabled his absence to not cause a reshoot to be planned.

Regarding the DIA 2012 video: I think the answer that seems to make the most sense to me, is that David wasn't really part of the longtime "group" that was reuniting, and he was still an "outsider" by comparison. Maybe the video being made without him was a test to see if those 4 personalities (sans David, since he seems to get along with everybody) could actually get together and hang out, make music (and a video) together, without incident. Maybe that was the first, most important test, to see if the reunion of those 4 guys, with as much baggage as they have with each other, could hold water, and that initially bringing in another personality into the equation was of a secondary concern. Also, I have to think that the powers that be were maybe initially thinking of David potentially being utilized in a Blondie BAD Tour "occasional guest" capacity.

While I'm very glad that Brian made the call to David and invited him to the reunion, I wonder what Brian was thinking (with regards to David) while in the studio at the time the video was filmed without David. If Brian really wanted David to be in the reunion lineup all along (even before the video was filmed), then one would imagine he would be thinking "why are we doing this without David", unless David's eventual involvement was something that was already on the plate, but hadn't been finalized yet, and that Brian had been made aware of very specific, intentional reason(s) for David's absence at the time of filming.

Like I said above, the only thing that makes real sense to me is that the initial Davidless video was almost like a group therapy session for those 4 guys.

[Scott]

A minor point - but as long as we are setting the record straight, I played the solo on the Do It Again remake.  David was added later to the video, and Mr. Stebbins says the track as well, but the guitar solo remains the same.

Nevertheless, I am glad that David was invited to be part of the tour and all the events of the band's 50th anniversary, he deserved to be there.

Scott

[Awesoman]

I concur.  'Twas good to have Marks involved in the reunion.  His guitar playing was a fine contribution to the album and tour.

[c-man]

A minor point - but as long as we are setting the record straight, I played the solo on the Do It Again remake.  David was added later to the video, and Mr. Stebbins says the track as well, but the guitar solo remains the same.

Nevertheless, I am glad that David was invited to be part of the tour and all the events of the band's 50th anniversary, he deserved to be there.

Scott

The audio from the pre-David version of the video and the version with David in it, as well as the actual track as released on CD, are exactly the same. My guess is that Joe Thomas didn't bother remixing the audio once Dave had added his parts, even though his scenes were edited into the video.

[Phoenix]

Wait a minute.  I don't have access to both of them right now but I could have sworn there were two different guitar solos.  Does the final released version of the tremelo/wavering at the end of the solo?  I know the video without Dave had that and I thought it wasn't in the final release.  That said, there are still two possibilities: I'm wrong and the solos are identical. >or< They're identical, with the exception of the very ending, and the final version had the wavering bit edited out.

[Mikie]

Nevertheless, I am glad that David was invited to be part of the tour and all the events of the band's 50th anniversary, he deserved to be there.

So did you.

[Jay]

I also thought the two solos were different. But it's been a while since I've listened carefully to the song. Back when it was first revealed that the group was rerecording Do It Again, I remember some talk of the initial session(s) ending in disaster, with some major arguments and disagreements. That would be an interesting story to hear(read) one day.

[Wirestone]

Back when it was first revealed that the group was rerecording Do It Again, I remember some talk of the initial session(s) ending in disaster, with some major arguments and disagreements. That would be an interesting story to hear(read) one day.

I also heard that things during that session were rather rocky.

[CenturyDeprived]

Back when it was first revealed that the group was rerecording Do It Again, I remember some talk of the initial session(s) ending in disaster, with some major arguments and disagreements. That would be an interesting story to hear(read) one day.

I also heard that things during that session were rather rocky.

I wasn't aware of that. Then it seems to make even more sense for David to not have been there initially, as a test for the personalities with the most baggage to see if they even could deal with each other.  I wonder what the arguments were about. I found the Brian/Mike hug portion of the video to be poignant, but one has to wonder if it was staged. I'm sure those guys did and do still hug each other though.

[HeyJude]

Wait a minute.  I don't have access to both of them right now but I could have sworn there were two different guitar solos.  Does the final released version of the tremelo/wavering at the end of the solo?  I know the video without Dave had that and I thought it wasn't in the final release.  That said, there are still two possibilities: I'm wrong and the solos are identical. >or< They're identical, with the exception of the very ending, and the final version had the wavering bit edited out.

I don’t have the two version to compare at the moment either, but I also pretty strongly remember that the guitar solo on the first “non-David” version of the video was audibly different in some way from the version on the “official”/finished version of the video. The solos, as I recall, weren’t mind-blowingly different from each other or anything in terms of style or the notes played, but I remember when I heard the “official” version with Dave footage edited into it, that the guitar solo sounded different, at least in certain parts. That obviously doesn’t prove who played what, or even that two different people played the solo. But I do recall at least elements of the two “takes” being different performances, whoever is doing them.

[HeyJude]

I also thought the two solos were different. But it's been a while since I've listened carefully to the song. Back when it was first revealed that the group was rerecording Do It Again, I remember some talk of the initial session(s) ending in disaster, with some major arguments and disagreements. That would be an interesting story to hear(read) one day.

I recall a few vague reports about the session not going well. I’m not sure I buy it, although a lot of that depends on what a “rocky” session is. Some awkwardness, or someone storming out of the session and voices being raised and arguments ensuing? I would guess more the former. If that really was the “test” to see if they could work together again (as everybody seemed to indicate), a “disastrous” session would pretty strongly indicate that the idea of doing a “test” was a good idea, and that they also failed that test. Seriously, re-recording a song they’ve been doing live since 1968 would have to be the least stressful thing to knock out in the studio. No arguments over songwriting or lyrics. The players and singers had already been agreed/arranged in advance. If they really had a super “rocky” session just doing that, that would indeed be a pretty strong indicator that it would get even worse once they started in on vetting new material and working on arrangements and lyrics and divvying up songwriting credits and whatnot.

I would imagine, given the resulting full reunion that did occur, that the “Do It Again” session was what one would expect. These guys hadn’t all recorded together in the same room since, most likely, “Stars and Stripes” in 1996, right? Mike hadn’t even likely been in the same room as Al or Brian too often since 1998 either most likely. Things maybe functionally were a bit awkward. They hadn’t all been together too much lately, and also there probably had to be a weird different sort of balance of power than in the past. Brian and his camp were more in charge than in past projects (not sure if Joe Thomas was already in on that session).

Wasn’t one of the stories that Brian first showed the guys (and perhaps some vocals laid down) “Think About the Days” at the end of that “Do It Again” session? If it had gone so disastrously, I’m not sure they would have started working on and eyeing actually “new” material to start in on.

[Jim V.]

I also thought the two solos were different. But it's been a while since I've listened carefully to the song. Back when it was first revealed that the group was rerecording Do It Again, I remember some talk of the initial session(s) ending in disaster, with some major arguments and disagreements. That would be an interesting story to hear(read) one day.

I recall a few vague reports about the session not going well. I’m not sure I buy it, although a lot of that depends on what a “rocky” session is. Some awkwardness, or someone storming out of the session and voices being raised and arguments ensuing? I would guess more the former. If that really was the “test” to see if they could work together again (as everybody seemed to indicate), a “disastrous” session would pretty strongly indicate that the idea of doing a “test” was a good idea, and that they also failed that test. Seriously, re-recording a song they’ve been doing live since 1968 would have to be the least stressful thing to knock out in the studio. No arguments over songwriting or lyrics. The players and singers had already been agreed/arranged in advance. If they really had a super “rocky” session just doing that, that would indeed be a pretty strong indicator that it would get even worse once they started in on vetting new material and working on arrangements and lyrics and divvying up songwriting credits and whatnot.

I would imagine, given the resulting full reunion that did occur, that the “Do It Again” session was what one would expect. These guys hadn’t all recorded together in the same room since, most likely, “Stars and Stripes” in 1996, right? Mike hadn’t even likely been in the same room as Al or Brian too often since 1998 either most likely. Things maybe functionally were a bit awkward. They hadn’t all been together too much lately, and also there probably had to be a weird different sort of balance of power than in the past. Brian and his camp were more in charge than in past projects (not sure if Joe Thomas was already in on that session).

Wasn’t one of the stories that Brian first showed the guys (and perhaps some vocals laid down) “Think About the Days” at the end of that “Do It Again” session? If it had gone so disastrously, I’m not sure they would have started working on and eyeing actually “new” material to start in on.

Good insight. I think you probably nailed it.

However, I'm pretty sure I do remember AGD being one of the people that said that the reunion session went somewhat not-so-good. Perhaps he would like to expound upon that.

[Pretty Funky]

Wasn’t one of the stories that Brian first showed the guys (and perhaps some vocals laid down) “Think About the Days” at the end of that “Do It Again” session? If it had gone so disastrously, I’m not sure they would have started working on and eyeing actually “new” material to start in on.

I think that was in the RS story from 2012.

[Mr. Wilson]

Interesting BW decided to start with a song { Days }  with no words like " Our Prayer .. If the other BB couldn't pull that off to Brian"s satisfaction or argued about the songs inclusion  on reunion Lp then there was no reason to continue working together.. Brian's no dummy..!

[c-man]

Wait a minute.  I don't have access to both of them right now but I could have sworn there were two different guitar solos.  Does the final released version of the tremelo/wavering at the end of the solo?  I know the video without Dave had that and I thought it wasn't in the final release.  That said, there are still two possibilities: I'm wrong and the solos are identical. >or< They're identical, with the exception of the very ending, and the final version had the wavering bit edited out.

I don’t have the two version to compare at the moment either, but I also pretty strongly remember that the guitar solo on the first “non-David” version of the video was audibly different in some way from the version on the “official”/finished version of the video. The solos, as I recall, weren’t mind-blowingly different from each other or anything in terms of style or the notes played, but I remember when I heard the “official” version with Dave footage edited into it, that the guitar solo sounded different, at least in certain parts. That obviously doesn’t prove who played what, or even that two different people played the solo. But I do recall at least elements of the two “takes” being different performances, whoever is doing them.

That's what I thought, too, while watching them...but then I A/B'd them with my eyes closed...and discovered they are exactly the same. Amazing what a powerful effect the visual sense can have on the mind!

[EgoHanger1966]

Wasn’t one of the stories that Brian first showed the guys (and perhaps some vocals laid down) “Think About the Days” at the end of that “Do It Again” session? If it had gone so disastrously, I’m not sure they would have started working on and eyeing actually “new” material to start in on.

I think that was in the RS story from 2012.

I recall it being from the QTV interview session.

[Wirestone]

When the final book is written about the recording of TWGMTR, I would be very surprised if the full band was ever really together at the studio. Most of the tracks were done, and Brian and Jeff had recorded all the parts. With the exception of a couple of tracks developed in studio (Isn't It Time), all the guys had to do was reproduce a Foskett or BW line played in their headphones. Brian didn't even need to be there -- and would it really surprise anyone if he wasn't?

[jimmy1949]

When the final book is written about the recording of TWGMTR, I would be very surprised if the full band was ever really together at the studio. Most of the tracks were done, and Brian and Jeff had recorded all the parts. With the exception of a couple of tracks developed in studio (Isn't It Time), all the guys had to do was reproduce a Foskett or BW line played in their headphones. Brian didn't even need to be there -- and would it really surprise anyone if he wasn't?

Spoilsport!!

[HeyJude]

Wait a minute.  I don't have access to both of them right now but I could have sworn there were two different guitar solos.  Does the final released version of the tremelo/wavering at the end of the solo?  I know the video without Dave had that and I thought it wasn't in the final release.  That said, there are still two possibilities: I'm wrong and the solos are identical. >or< They're identical, with the exception of the very ending, and the final version had the wavering bit edited out.

I don’t have the two version to compare at the moment either, but I also pretty strongly remember that the guitar solo on the first “non-David” version of the video was audibly different in some way from the version on the “official”/finished version of the video. The solos, as I recall, weren’t mind-blowingly different from each other or anything in terms of style or the notes played, but I remember when I heard the “official” version with Dave footage edited into it, that the guitar solo sounded different, at least in certain parts. That obviously doesn’t prove who played what, or even that two different people played the solo. But I do recall at least elements of the two “takes” being different performances, whoever is doing them.

That's what I thought, too, while watching them...but then I A/B'd them with my eyes closed...and discovered they are exactly the same. Amazing what a powerful effect the visual sense can have on the mind!

A ha! Interesting. I'll have to give both a listen (if I can still track down the early version).  I suppose then Dave may be there on rhythm guitar at least, but it does support the idea that the main thing at that stage was to simply include Dave rather than have him add some key guitar part to it. I suppose we could argue that Brian really needed Dave's feel for some rhythm guitar, but that's a bit of a stretch (for some observers anyway, maybe not Brian).

[HeyJude]

When the final book is written about the recording of TWGMTR, I would be very surprised if the full band was ever really together at the studio. Most of the tracks were done, and Brian and Jeff had recorded all the parts. With the exception of a couple of tracks developed in studio (Isn't It Time), all the guys had to do was reproduce a Foskett or BW line played in their headphones. Brian didn't even need to be there -- and would it really surprise anyone if he wasn't?

There is a bit of studio footage that seems to at least potentially be actual vocal session work rather than something purely staged for the cameras. There is some “Shelter” vocal session footage for instance, and I think most if not all of the guys are there.

I would imagine Brian was usually or always in attendance at the sessions; I would guess it was the other guys that made more sporadic appearances. But the amount of time they actually physically spent together in the studio aside, the format and tone of the recording of the album does seem pretty clear. Brian and Joe’s stuff, with a lot of Brian and Foskett, and the other guys brought in to do as much backing vocals as possible or needed, a few things perhaps cooked up and tracked later in the process together, one Mike solo track with token BB backing vocals, etc.