You've Lost 'You've Lost That Loving Feelin's's Loving Feelin'

[picassosson]

Dude, you know what I meant. I wish I could say I like listening to it. I don't. I guess I'm glad someone does. The end.

[Mikie]

I think these posts are a little bit harsh on the people in question. Especially as with some of the songs their aims seem to have been just to make them sound as polished as possible. I agree that I don't like some of the mixes on this set and they have gone too far with some though.

As the question was posed earlier in the thread, and I agree: How can anyone be comfortable taking artistic liberties on historical recordings?

Because they are, for the most part, not mixed, or at least mixed professionally, and not mastered at all. You're basing your preference for these things off of (sometimes) really shoddy work done by bootleggers. I guess you still have your hissy cassette dubs recorded with all the faders up though. I'd rather hear a mix.


Mark and Alan put some reverb on Brian's vocal to a Phil Spector cover! What an unprecedented move! Such a good reason to fire them.


For full disclosure in the threads sake, I listened to MIC on a good system and thought it was really bassy throughout, so, er, nyah. And don't base yr impressions off bloody spotify rips....

I got the real deal here, Hyper. The original MIC CD's. I don't do Spotify, nor did I download any FLAC/Mp3 files (yet). And I have a pretty good audio system in addition to my PC system, so I'm not pulling my observations outta my ass.

[hypehat]

I think these posts are a little bit harsh on the people in question. Especially as with some of the songs their aims seem to have been just to make them sound as polished as possible. I agree that I don't like some of the mixes on this set and they have gone too far with some though.

As the question was posed earlier in the thread, and I agree: How can anyone be comfortable taking artistic liberties on historical recordings?

Because they are, for the most part, not mixed, or at least mixed professionally, and not mastered at all. You're basing your preference for these things off of (sometimes) really shoddy work done by bootleggers. I guess you still have your hissy cassette dubs recorded with all the faders up though. I'd rather hear a mix.


Mark and Alan put some reverb on Brian's vocal to a Phil Spector cover! What an unprecedented move! Such a good reason to fire them.


For full disclosure in the threads sake, I listened to MIC on a good system and thought it was really bassy throughout, so, er, nyah. And don't base yr impressions off bloody spotify rips....

I got the real deal here, Hyper. The original MIC CD's. I don't do Spotify, nor did I download any FLAC/Mp3 files (yet). And I have a pretty good audio system in addition to my PC system, so I'm not pulling my observations outta my ass.

My last observation wasn't directed at you - I mean, you've probably got two of these, right? 

I think a lot of people were basing their initial reactions to the box to mp3 streams, spotify, etc due to lax delivery - i mean, some people here thought this track lost all bass frequencies because that's what spotify did - and that's colouring their thoughts as they get the box proper, so I think the entire premise of this thread (and calls to fire Mark & Alan!) are ridiculous.

Also, should have put a smiley on that post picassosson, was only joking 

[Wirestone]

Ultimately, I would rather see the compilers take risks and fail occasionally than play it safe and produce a boring product.

[hypehat]

Ultimately, I would rather see the compilers take risks and fail occasionally than play it safe and produce a boring product.

Right. If it becomes a 'well I prefer the bootleg mix' thing, well... you still have the bootleg. And they are still easy to find in the internet era.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

I'll base my final judgment when I get my box this week (thanks guys!) but from what I've heard the only things that really bug me are Sail Plane Song, Sherry, and YLTLF, the latter mainly due to sounding like my fan mix a little too much.

[monicker]

Sorry this is so long, but i feel there's a lot to say in response to what i see as dismissive replies.

I understand that being in Mark and Alan’s shoes must be tough. What they do isn’t easy. They must have a lot on their shoulders -- a lot of conflicting interests to balance, a lot of executive types to answer to, a lot of people to make happy, and a huge responsibility to honor the historical recordings of a legendary band of whom they’re fans. Speaking only for myself, i do think there are tracks on MiC where they’ve done a great job, but their heavy hand in other tracks raises issues that i feel can’t be ignored. I would think this is the place to talk about such things. Beyond this box set and the Beach Boys in general, i think this is an interesting and worthwhile topic anyway. The issue is much broader than (digital) reverb -- dare i say it’s a philosophical quandary that is no stranger to history and art.

So, taking the seemingly straightforward topic at hand here of reverb -- it’s not so much the use of reverb itself, but the absurd amount of it, instances where the “room size” sounds gigantic, where the sound is bigger than what’s on the original recording. Put aside YLTLF for a minute. There’s this idea in recent years of presenting certain Beach Boys recordings as much bigger sounding than they actually were. The 2009 stereo mix of Don’t Worry Baby is just so over the top. And i hate to sound like a stodgy purist, but that is undeniably an all time classic that’s being tampered with there, unlike say, a previously unreleased Spector cover that never went anywhere (which still doesn’t make what they did to it excusable, in my opinion). I don’t think i’m alone in thinking of this as sacrilegious. I thought this idea of offering an alternative perspective is in the fact alone that these recordings were originally mixed in mono and are now presented in stereo. Why is there a ridiculous amount of reverb on the stereo Please Let Me Wonder? Is it being now in stereo not enough of a new take on the song? Is the idea not simply to separate the elements so as to get a better look at what was there all along? How does loads of extra reverb factor into that?

On the topic of unreleased and unfinished material: Imagine coming across a tape in the archives of a song that was left in an unfinished state, whether it’s a demo or it’s missing vocals/overdubs or it was finished but never mixed and mastered. What do you do? It’s really tough to decide what you think might have been done back then had the original creators gotten around to it. And by tough i mean impossible. There’s just obviously no way to know. So, do you try to present the recording in a way where you allow what’s already there to speak for itself, say, letting the discreet tracks sit conservatively in the mix? Or do you take an active role and try to make the song sound the most presentable according to your idea of what is most presentable? Say in this hypothetical example you come across a recording where there was no reverb at all printed to tape, and say this recording in question is particularly dry. I can understand adding a little reverb subtly because you have deduced (even though this is already a risky conclusion to make) that the likelihood is that there would have been some reverb added had the song been finished (or, hell, even just because you think it sounds good and improves the recording). But the issue here is that it’s gobs and gobs of reverb to the point where you are significantly coloring the production and changing its overall sonic character. The reverb itself is now a distinguishing, even prominent, part of the production. There is a big difference between applying a little reverb to, say, avoid having a “dead” room sound, and drenching the entire recording in what sounds like a hall setting on a plug-in. I just don’t think that the latter is anyone’s call to make but the original producer, and that’s the crux here.

There’s also the issue of panning (as part of the live mix). I’m not fundamentally opposed to panning...when it’s someone’s own music and their call to make as the producer of the music. But this is not Linett’s or Boyd’s music, they are not producers of the original recordings. I think anyone in their position should be taking a backseat here, presenting the music in as neutral a way as possible (i.e. conservative mixes). Panning across the stereo field in Vega-Tables and H&V? Adding a hokey reverb on just the word “wise” in the stereo H&V? On an official archival release? I don’t think anyone should be given the agency to do this sort of thing.

What’s weird is that i would think Alan Boyd, as a film archivist and Beach Boy fanatic, would be coming from a similar place. He’s often been described as “one of us” -- frequenting this board for years, always attuned to the hardcore fan base, even friends with many here. Is this a case, as Wirestone suggests, of the compilers not playing it safe? Or does this maybe hint at the possibility that Capitol execs stepped in to make sure that this box set was geared more toward casual fans who, say, might have a hard time swallowing a few barebones demos, unfinished tracks, the occasional off key singing, or the idea that The Beach Boys didn’t always sound enormous on record like Spector’s wall of sound? Maybe Sail Plane Song in its stark demo form wasn’t seen as marketable (despite it having appeared on the Endless Harmony compilation). Perhaps the compromise for including something as risky as the California Feelin demo was to touch up some of the more off kilter stuff. 

Apologies for rambling. And none of this is personal.

[DonnyL]

Misfits 'Static Age' 1977 mix (not released until 1997):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTqz8VbWFiw

Same track, 1985 mix:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vlTBA8fSoY

[runnersdialzero]

Whoa, didn't think I'd find many Misfits fans around these parts. It's interesting, though, in that the '85 mixes were Glenn's work where as the originals were not (while probably having his input), which is kind of the opposite situation.

There are a couple cool things I like about his mix/additions (particularly the harmony vocal on "Static Age"), but overall, yeesh. I really don't care for them, the super-reverbed mixes are very ill-fitting for most of those songs. I think he was just into that sort of production and mixing style at the time. Sounds great on November-Coming-Fire, but here? I can't get into it.

[Nicko1234]

I think these posts are a little bit harsh on the people in question. Especially as with some of the songs their aims seem to have been just to make them sound as polished as possible. I agree that I don't like some of the mixes on this set and they have gone too far with some though.

As the question was posed earlier in the thread, and I agree: How can anyone be comfortable taking artistic liberties on historical recordings?

And I don't think it's being too harsh bringing the issue up or by the way it's being addressed here. It's a legitimate concern. I'm somewhat of a purist myself, and while I appreciate fan mixes (some add positive attributes to the original recordings), when altered, they are no longer the original recordings! I use to think Mark Linett was selected by Brian because of his ability to bring existing original recordings up to the current standard technology(s) while maintaining the integrity of the recording without altering it. Of course there has been minor compromising (as needed) since Linett took over engineering duties on Beach Boys recordings years ago, and there have been questions about how narrow some of the stereo mixes are and significant additions to the Smile mixes, etc. but overall he's done a great job. I started wondering with some of the tracks on TSS, but some of the things on MIC go beyond the "threshold" at times, and he's often taken obvious artistic liberties. Like fan mixes, some add good things to the recordings, and some are questionable. The amount of reverb and other effects (for example the live recordings) and the panning just don't seem necessary. Just my opinion. I think Sail Plane Song - not only has it been released before in demo form - should have been left alone. The '65/'76 Sherry mashup - still not quite sure about that one. And listen to the YouTube version of YLTLF and you tell me which one sounds better to you. I've given examples of discretions taken on another thread, and I'll stop here. Just wanted to chime in and....well I want to accentuate the positive with this box set, but at the same time wonder what happened to keeping things as close to the original as possible. Up until now, I don't question Mark's Linett's abilities, but now..........well, could I do better? Probably not, but........  

I do agree with a lot of the things that you're saying. But we don't know what directives were given to the compilers of this set.

It may be that they were asked to make Sherry and YLTLF sound as 'normal' as possible. And I would hope that they would much rather have included a genuinely unreleased song rather than their butchering of Sail Plane Song.

I would say that seeing the number of different mono and stereo mixes (from so many different years) on this compilation is preposterous though.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yeah, heaven forbid someone should put reverb on a Spector cover.

Dude called Brian Wilson didn't (well, at least not that much) back in fall 1976. My 1983 cassette copy was taken from a safety master, and sure it's hissy, but it sounds... better.

[runnersdialzero]

Yeah, heaven forbid someone should put reverb on a Spector cover.

Dude called Brian Wilson didn't (well, at least not that much) back in fall 1976. My 1983 cassette copy was taken from a safety master, and sure it's hissy, but it sounds... better.

I see both sides of ths argument and lean one way or the other on a song-by-song basis, but I'm curious, was the version you have a final mix? Or the bootlegged version we have?

Not that that makes it okay to take liberties etc. and like I said, I see both sides, but I do think it's relevant and above all else, just curious.

[Dunderhead]

Ultimately, I would rather see the compilers take risks and fail occasionally than play it safe and produce a boring product.

Wouldn't that alienate the casual fans who this box was designed for?

[Nicko1234]

Wouldn't that alienate the casual fans who this box was designed for?

Was it?

[runnersdialzero]

Wouldn't that alienate the casual fans who this box was designed for?

Was it?

What are you?

[Dunderhead]

So, taking the seemingly straightforward topic at hand here of reverb -- it’s not so much the use of reverb itself, but the absurd amount of it, instances where the “room size” sounds gigantic, where the sound is bigger than what’s on the original recording. Put aside YLTLF for a minute. There’s this idea in recent years of presenting certain Beach Boys recordings as much bigger sounding than they actually were. The 2009 stereo mix of Don’t Worry Baby is just so over the top. And i hate to sound like a stodgy purist, but that is undeniably an all time classic that’s being tampered with there, unlike say, a previously unreleased Spector cover that never went anywhere (which still doesn’t make what they did to it excusable, in my opinion). I don’t think i’m alone in thinking of this as sacrilegious. I thought this idea of offering an alternative perspective is in the fact alone that these recordings were originally mixed in mono and are now presented in stereo. Why is there a ridiculous amount of reverb on the stereo Please Let Me Wonder? Is it being now in stereo not enough of a new take on the song? Is the idea not simply to separate the elements so as to get a better look at what was there all along? How does loads of extra reverb factor into that?

I just hate the amount of qualification that goes on around here, that you have to do, out of obligation, so that people won't jump on you. There's just too much "Mark and Alan are great, no offense to them, i really appreciate..." that you have to do in order to make a valid criticism. And even then it's never really enough. Honestly, I've never met either of them, and I'm unlikely ever to do so. Why should I be worried about hurting the feelings of complete strangers like this? I mean, how is it even possible for my comments to be personal about this. I know absolutely nothing about them besides what they've done with The Beach Boys. They've both received what I feel are their dues here since I've been posting, and fans have always been generous with their praise. I doubt either of these guys is so thinned skinned that any of the number of genuinely thoughtful attempts at nuanced feedback that have appeared here in the last week could in any universe be taken personally by them. They're professionals, and that requires an adult detachment on their part from their work. No more sugar coating.

Do some of these mixes, both on TSS on MIC, affect actual listening enjoyment? Yes. Some of these mixes compare unfavourably to much more shoestring ones done by people like seltaeb. Does that mean these mixes are unlistenable? No. I don't enjoy them nearly as much as I'd like though all the same. They're very bright and unpleasant to listen to on headphones, they sound less dynamic, that is the open spaces get crammed with too much reverb and create an unpleasant feeling, they just don't do the songs justice.

[Nicko1234]

Wouldn't that alienate the casual fans who this box was designed for?

Was it?

What are you?

It's a genuine question. And as one of the print reviews in another thread states, 'This set was most decidedly not aimed at the casual fan', a valid one.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Yeah, heaven forbid someone should put reverb on a Spector cover.

Dude called Brian Wilson didn't (well, at least not that much) back in fall 1976. My 1983 cassette copy was taken from a safety master, and sure it's hissy, but it sounds... better.

I see both sides of ths argument and lean one way or the other on a song-by-song basis, but I'm curious, was the version you have a final mix? Or the bootlegged version we have?

Same version as has been booted down the years, just better quality. Brian did the song in one day, top to bottom and I assume he mixed it too.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Wouldn't that alienate the casual fans who this box was designed for?

Was it?

What are you?

It's a genuine question. And as one of the print reviews in another thread states, 'This set was most decidedly not aimed at the casual fan', a valid one.

The set was designed to be exactly what it is - a "career-spanning" box set. All the hits for the casual punter, classic album tracks for the heavier fan and hard-core rarities for geeks like us. The set was aimed at the widest demographic that was possible. I'd have to say, it's succeeded.

[Cabinessenceking]

Wouldn't that alienate the casual fans who this box was designed for?

Was it?

What are you?

It's a genuine question. And as one of the print reviews in another thread states, 'This set was most decidedly not aimed at the casual fan', a valid one.

The product had to arrive and the reviews get out for people to realise this?

When I heard 'Made In California' box was being prepared for release I immediatly thought this was going to be a huge gratification fest for all the long time hardcore fans. Instead the day the tracklist was released I immediatly felt "Hey, this isn't offering me enough yet it offers the casual fan who has just been saturated by TWGMTR, C50 tour and 50 Big Ones"

What does this set offer the casual fan? Everything. But does that mean that casual fans will actually buy it? There was never a guarantee of that and there was no chance that MIC was gonna be the new GV box. I think much of the market is still saturated by the GV box 20 years later. Also, many of those who bought back then would still be part of the target market. Many didn't feel there was enough incentive and also the box arrived a year after the tour (unfortunately they could never have done anything with this).


MIC is good, but I'm not seeing it being a big seller.

[bsten]

Ehhrm, could we please go back to the original subject of this thread...
W, Thank you...

One big question is how the BB could go from grand releases and productions
in the early 70's - Sunflower, Surfs up, CatP, Holland, Concert - to mediocre/lousy
productions just a few years later. Just once in my life and Yltlf really deserved/-s better.
Imagine the Wrecking Crew playing on those tracks... Why did the BB choose/allow that
"low budget" production???

[Nicko1234]

The set was designed to be exactly what it is - a "career-spanning" box set. All the hits for the casual punter, classic album tracks for the heavier fan and hard-core rarities for geeks like us. The set was aimed at the widest demographic that was possible. I'd have to say, it's succeeded.

This is a genuine question AGD and not meant sarcastically but do you say it has succeeded based on sales (or pre-sales) figures?

[Andrew G. Doe]

The set was designed to be exactly what it is - a "career-spanning" box set. All the hits for the casual punter, classic album tracks for the heavier fan and hard-core rarities for geeks like us. The set was aimed at the widest demographic that was possible. I'd have to say, it's succeeded.

This is a genuine question AGD and not meant sarcastically but do you say it has succeeded based on sales (or pre-sales) figures?

Wasn't taken as anything but a genuine question: I'd say it's succeeded in fulfilling its remit. As for sales... no idea, but, as with TSS this is more a prestige project than one designed to pull in serious bucks. I doubt it'll cover the overall cost, even though a substantial portion of the tracks needed little if any work on them (2012 remasters and so on).

[Andrew G. Doe]

Ehhrm, could we please go back to the original subject of this thread...
W, Thank you...

One big question is how the BB could go from grand releases and productions
in the early 70's - Sunflower, Surfs up, CatP, Holland, Concert - to mediocre/lousy
productions just a few years later. Just once in my life and Yltlf really deserved/-s better.
Imagine the Wrecking Crew playing on those tracks... Why did the BB choose/allow that
"low budget" production???

Because Brian was back. Also, "YLTLF" is a 100% solo BW track.

[Sam_BFC]

.