Separation of Church n' State

[Bean Bag]

I've long believed that "separation of church and state" is something of a myth.  A hoax even.  As we continue to remove God -- not religion, but God -- from public life, our public life aka "The State" becomes the religion.

Boy Prays To Obama
http://www.infowars.com/video-boy-prays-to-obama/
“Barack Obama, thank you for doing everything and all the kind stuff… Thank you for all the stuff you helped us with,” the little boy, who identifies himself as Steven, says as he kneels down and closes his eyes in typical praying fashion.

“You are good, Barack Obama. You are great and when you get older you will be able to do great things. Love, Steven,” the boy concludes.

Yes, "thank you" Obama.  You know... for like the "kind stuff" and "everything."

[Jason]

Well, statism has always been a religion, but then again I don't understand how anyone claiming to be a member of an Abrahamic faith or any other faith would even support the state...

[guitarfool2002]

I find all of this cult-of-personality, heck let's drop the "personality" and call it the cult-like fervor built up around a single politician to be at best distasteful and misguided, at worst dangerous, to witness in the US.

I guess I in my naivete having been a political observer since my teen years have seen some goofy sh*t go down in politics, but the way there is a near-religious aura around any US politician seems like such a waste of time and energy. Who is to blame for this?

I thought the Obama campaign would have learned a lesson from the backlash early in the first term that greeted those videos of the children in school singing the "mm mmm mmmm, Barack Hussein Obama..." "equal work for equal pay, that's the order of the day..." singalong as part of a school's musical presentation on presidents. Rightfully so, I'd say, that kind of thing got a mostly negative reaction considering the age of the kids singing the praises. Some things just cross the line, and that seemed to be one of them no matter which side tried to spin it into political points.

I mean, seriously, anyone who has worked in classroom or educational situations pretty much accepts that you can teach children to recite or regurgitate pretty much any series of words and they don't need to know what they're necessarily saying as a prerequisite. A teacher could order a class of first-graders to pledge an oath to a politician like Obama, are the kids going to question it? Is that something that those of us parents who hold all kinds of political views want our kids to be trained into doing as part of a school project?

Yet, the biggest irony or hypocrisy (and I'll put this in bold for emphasis)...I'm willing to wager that these same organizations who rushed to defend those teachers and whoever else got the young kids chanting Obama's praises at a school function are the same ones who wouldn't allow a "Christmas Concert" at the same school, nor would they allow a Christmas carol like "Silent Night" to be performed at that school because of religious overtones, never mind the musical worth of any given carol.

So they have "Winter Festivals" without mentioning Christmas at all, they don't want a high school valedictorian to invoke religion as part of his/her speech to the graduates, yet the spectacle of a kid who, let's be honest, at this age will most likely parrot anything an authority figure tells them in order to gain "brownie points" or praise, delivers a prayer in the name of a politician using this kind of reverence is something that's acceptable and worthy of praise?

How does this work, exactly?

I don't even dip a toe into the deep end of the "Church V. State" pool because that term and concept is misused and misstated so many times it's lost much of it's intent, but rather I focus on why having kids recite chants, songs, and prayers in homage of a politician is somehow more palatable than having a children's chorus sing a Christmas tune at their elementary school.

The kids chanting to a political figure reminds me too much of the "greats" like Fidel and Mao and Josef and all the rest who put on similar displays as they'd pat the well-coiffed heads of schoolchildren who would deliver similar praise and glory at official state functions. No thanks.

And it seems to be more acceptable based on who the politician is and what their ideology is at least in the US, on how acceptable it is to see things like this unfold. Which is just pure, unmitigated nonsense and hypocrisy.

That story bothered me, my apologies for unloading all of that stuff as I just did in a rambling way. But it just bothers me quite a bit. Back to the fun. 

[Bean Bag]

It bothers me too -- conceptually.  First its a child, who clearly must have been lead into some very creepy form of worship.  Second, its worship.  He's praying to a man.  He's closing his eyes and attempting to channel the good graces of a MORTAL human being as if this person isn't a MORTAL human being, but a god -- or The God, or one who works with God and could meet this praying boy on some spiritual plane, if you will, and actually hear his prayers.  And answer them.

If this mortal human being were, say a dear friend or family member who had passed -- that would be understandable, since that person is no longer of this world.  Or say a religious figure, like a Saint, who could be linked spiritually to a common otherworldly God or form of worship and prayer.  But this is pure cult sh-t.  Personality worship.  Political worship.  It's simply a boy who's spirituality has be stolen.  Hijacked.

I believe it's demonic.  It's the work of some very corrupt, dark forces.  It's replacing perfection and holiness (however you define it) with something finite, imperfect and nonspiritual.  The Pope said "Collective Salvation" was demonic (something Obama believes in) and he's right.  I believe this is also demonic.  But I digress...


But it DOESN'T bother me -- politically.  I like pointing out the gross hypocrisy of the other side.  The depths of creepiness and depravity and hypocrisy of the other side -- which claims superiority in all matters of this earth and how we should separate worship from public life.  A political movement (especially Obama) that displays disdain for spirituality and its role in society and our government.  A politically corrupt movement that has increasingly left people with nothing holy in their lives, but to worship them -- the government.  The great leveler.  The great provider, that will make things fair and right.

And I love showing people what I said would happen, when it actually happens.  No spin.  Just reality!  It's time to call Ghostbusters.

[drbeachboy]

People always seem to forget that "separation of church & state" means separation of religion & state. It was put there so no other religion could be placed above another or become the (endorsed) state religion. It had nothing to do with God and spirituality. The founding fathers all believed in some Supreme Being and that it was guiding them in founding the country, even the Revolution, itself. Over the years it's been perverted into something that it was never meant to be; Godlessness.

[Heysaboda]

But it DOESN'T bother me -- politically.  I like pointing out the gross hypocrisy of the other side.  The depths of creepiness and depravity and hypocrisy of the other side -- which claims superiority in all matters of this earth and how we should separate worship from public life.  A political movement (especially Obama) that displays disdain for spirituality and its role in society and our government.  A politically corrupt movement that has increasingly left people with nothing holy in their lives, but to worship them -- the government.  The great leveler.  The great provider, that will make things fair and right.

I really don't give one flying fookle that some deluded "video boy" is praying to whomever.  I mean, he could be praying to Your G-d Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck too, or The Pope, or Stalin, who knows and who cares.  But meanwhile I wait for you to cite, in an actual "real" news article, where BHO has ever, and I mean EVER "disdained spirituality".  With respect, your post is complete BS.    

[Jason]

I don't much care who the hell you pray to; don't make me pay for it and don't make me participate.

[Heysaboda]

I don't much care who the hell you pray to; don't make me pay for it and don't make me participate.

Yes, good!

I am totally in favor removing all favorable tax exemptions for ALL churches!  Why should they be exempt from paying taxes, hmmm?

Who's with me on this?

You, I and Joe Blow on the Street are funding these CORRUPT organizations (churches) because they pay no taxes.

[guitarfool2002]

I'd like someone to ask Bill Maher, for one, what he thinks of a video like this.

[Jason]

I don't much care who the hell you pray to; don't make me pay for it and don't make me participate.

Yes, good!

I am totally in favor removing all favorable tax exemptions for ALL churches!  Why should they be exempt from paying taxes, hmmm?

Who's with me on this?

You, I and Joe Blow on the Street are funding these CORRUPT organizations (churches) because they pay no taxes.

I want to exempt EVERYONE from paying taxes.

[drbeachboy]

I don't much care who the hell you pray to; don't make me pay for it and don't make me participate.

Yes, good!

I am totally in favor removing all favorable tax exemptions for ALL churches!  Why should they be exempt from paying taxes, hmmm?

Who's with me on this?

You, I and Joe Blow on the Street are funding these CORRUPT organizations (churches) because they pay no taxes.

I want to exempt EVERYONE from paying taxes.

Most religions say that the body is a Temple. Temple, church, tomato, to-mat-o. I'm filing for tax exempt status today.

[guitarfool2002]

I'll just start a political activism PAC, then splinter it into the core group which is basically a name only but not tax exempt, and an "educational" branch of the group which is tax exempt and does most of the actual work for the cause. If a Democrat is in the White House I'll model it on MoveOn, if a Republican is in I'll model it on one of Rove's groups.

Either way I'll be free to spread all kinds of partisan bullshit and enjoy my tax-free status as I attend all kinds of chicken-and-peas fundraising banquet dinners around the country.

Now that's corrupt.

[hypehat]

I'll just start a political activism PAC, then splinter it into the core group which is basically a name only but not tax exempt, and an "educational" branch of the group which is tax exempt and does most of the actual work for the cause. If a Democrat is in the White House I'll model it on MoveOn, if a Republican is in I'll model it on one of Rove's groups.

Either way I'll be free to spread all kinds of partisan bullshit and enjoy my tax-free status as I attend all kinds of chicken-and-peas fundraising banquet dinners around the country.

Now that's corrupt.

Mods, have we considered this for Smileysmile.net?

[Loaf]

How come so many posts in the Sandbox sound like they were written by bug-eyed shrieking people you'd cross the street to avoid?

It seems to me that so many people in the United States are scared and angry and don't know where to turn.

[Bean Bag]

With respect, your post is complete BS.    

Hi heysaboda, thanks for replying.  Let's dive in...

I really don't give one flying fookle that some deluded "video boy" is praying to whomever.

Don't misunderstand -- I'm not trying to tempt you into having concern for this child.  I'm just rubbing the Left's nose in their mess.  I want folks to see and be aware of the state religion (coming down from on high!  Hallelujah!!)  It's coming from the very same sect of our culture that portends to place a premium on separating religion (and God and spirituality) from public life.  This is ironic, and I love irony.

If we extrapolate it just a bit further -- it should be easy to conclude that this is actually what's intended by all this Leftist.  Throughout the world.  Leftist Dictators paint their ugly mugs on buildings.  You're made to worship them.



So... if we flip to the last slide... Separation of Church and State, as it's used today by the Big Left, is nothing more than a ruse.  A fake left, shifting the defense to the right leaving the end zone a quick five yard sprint for the quarterback -- who had the ball the whole time, neatly concealed on his side.

I mean, he could be praying to Your G-d Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck too, or The Pope, or Stalin, who knows and who cares.  

I think we know who he was praying to Heysaboda.  But, this comment is not a complete waste.  I find it very telling that you equate "my God" as being likewise.  Very interesting...

But meanwhile I wait for you to cite, in an actual "real" news article, where BHO has ever, and I mean EVER "disdained spirituality".

Allow me to retort... The three big things that come to my mind are...
1. "Bitter clingers."  Clinging to their religion and their guns. -- This off-mic moment is very cold and illuminating.  To me, it simply suggests he want "in there" -- in that spiritual space.  Very weird.

2. "My individual salvation is based on our collective salvation..." -- Ahhh, there it is.  This is a perverted and bastardized (and demonic, according to the Pope) view of Christian salvation.  Saying that in order to save HIS soul he must do something to US -- and we must be taken there with HIM, spiritually.  Black Liberation Theology.  Another topic... but, boy is it evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwiwpFZ6ws

3. Birth Control/Catholic Church -- This one has specific policy behind it, not just a "news article."  Back when the Left was raging it's war on women, this chestnut popped out.  It forces religious institutions to pay for things that it thinks are bad, evil and sad.  But... so what... his salvation depends it.

[Heysaboda]

I don't much care who the hell you pray to; don't make me pay for it and don't make me participate.

Yes, good!

I am totally in favor removing all favorable tax exemptions for ALL churches!  Why should they be exempt from paying taxes, hmmm?

Who's with me on this?

You, I and Joe Blow on the Street are funding these CORRUPT organizations (churches) because they pay no taxes.

I want to exempt EVERYONE from paying taxes.

I think we should tax only people who wear white shorts!   

[Heysaboda]

With respect, your post is complete BS.    

Hi heysaboda, thanks for replying.  Let's dive in...

I really don't give one flying fookle that some deluded "video boy" is praying to whomever.

Don't misunderstand -- I'm not trying to tempt you into having concern for this child.  I'm just rubbing the Left's nose in their mess.  I want folks to see and be aware of the state religion (coming down from on high!  Hallelujah!!)  It's coming from the very same sect of our culture that portends to place a premium on separating religion (and God and spirituality) from public life.  This is ironic, and I love irony.

If we extrapolate it just a bit further -- it should be easy to conclude that this is actually what's intended by all this Leftist.  Throughout the world.  Leftist Dictators paint their ugly mugs on buildings.  You're made to worship them.



So... if we flip to the last slide... Separation of Church and State, as it's used today by the Big Left, is nothing more than a ruse.  A fake left, shifting the defense to the right leaving the end zone a quick five yard sprint for the quarterback -- who had the ball the whole time, neatly concealed on his side.

I mean, he could be praying to Your G-d Rush Limbaugh or Glen Beck too, or The Pope, or Stalin, who knows and who cares.  

I think we know who he was praying to Heysaboda.  But, this comment is not a complete waste.  I find it very telling that you equate "my God" as being likewise.  Very interesting...

But meanwhile I wait for you to cite, in an actual "real" news article, where BHO has ever, and I mean EVER "disdained spirituality".

Allow me to retort... The three big things that come to my mind are...
1. "Bitter clingers."  Clinging to their religion and their guns. -- This off-mic moment is very cold and illuminating.  To me, it simply suggests he want "in there" -- in that spiritual space.  Very weird.

2. "My individual salvation is based on our collective salvation..." -- Ahhh, there it is.  This is a perverted and bastardized (and demonic, according to the Pope) view of Christian salvation.  Saying that in order to save HIS soul he must do something to US -- and we must be taken there with HIM, spiritually.  Black Liberation Theology.  Another topic... but, boy is it evil.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAwiwpFZ6ws

3. Birth Control/Catholic Church -- This one has specific policy behind it, not just a "news article."  Back when the Left was raging it's war on women, this chestnut popped out.  It forces religious institutions to pay for things that it thinks are bad, evil and sad.  But... so what... his salvation depends it.

And by the way BB, I meant no personal aspersion or insult to you, sorry if I was too snarky, just your post that I was criticising.  I am sure you are a lovely person and a bright guy!

I just don't abscribe too much importance to BHO's random off mike comments (I've heard them before).  They just don't have the Vast Importance to me, that the Right Wing claims they have.

Hey by the way, I can add pics too (I'm the one in the middle):

[Loaf]

hey hey hey, stop calling Democrats 'The Left'. The USA has 2 political parties, Right and Further Right. There is no middle, no left. I know everyone gets worked up about 'liberals' and 'socialists', but it's incorrect.

The Right is not immune from state or dictator worship either (e.g. 1930s Germany), but let's not let the facts get in the way of Making A Point, eh!?

[Bean Bag]

hey hey hey, stop calling Democrats 'The Left'. The USA has 2 political parties, Right and Further Right. There is no middle, no left. I know everyone gets worked up about 'liberals' and 'socialists', but it's incorrect.

The Right is not immune from state or dictator worship either (e.g. 1930s Germany), but let's not let the facts get in the way of Making A Point, eh!?

Well, I would have to disagree.  We really ought to allow facts to act as a buffer.

For example, might you be referring to the National Socialism party that arose to power in Germany during the 1930s?  Cuz if so... you know, your batting average is ZIPPY.

[Bean Bag]

And by the way BB, I meant no personal aspersion or insult to you, sorry if I was too snarky, just your post that I was criticising.

I didn't take it that way at all -- I understood that you were only spearing my points and opinions.

Hey by the way, I can add pics too (I'm the one in the middle):

I love posting pictures.  They're worth so much more than words!

[guitarfool2002]

After taking a breath and getting the knee-jerk reaction out of the way, I wanted to clarify something which I think is crucial to the topic of this thread.

Is the child in the video praying *for* Obama or praying *to* Obama?

Because if he's praying for Obama, there's nothing at all to be concerned about.

If he's praying to Obama, then that's another story, and it is troublesome.

I had in mind something that happened in modern history, at least from the previous century if that's modern enough. And that would be the case of Japan having an emperor then known as Hirohito who was considered "divine" as leader, and his words were considered to be the words of a god. One of the conditions and compromises after Japan's formal surrender in WW2 was that Hirohito could retain his title and would not be prosecuted for war crimes, but he would renounce his "divinity", or divine status as a god and leader of the country. His renouncing that divinity broke a centuries-old tradition of Japanese rule.

That is an obvious example, a modern one at that, of a situation where the leader of a nation both symbolic through tradition and birthright was both a religious and a political figure. So people, in effect, would "pray" to such a leader of their nation if they followed the traditions of their country and/or their religion.

And I believe that this kind of example may be what concerns some people when they see some traces of a politician in any way being elevated to a divine status even in overt symbolism if not outright actions.

So that could be one factor, apart from those who are followers of particular religions who may view such actions suggesting a prayer being offered to a politician of any sort as blasphemy.

But again, it comes down to the question of perception, and whether it is a prayer for or a prayer to someone in public office.

[drbeachboy]

I see nothing wrong with any of it. We live in a country with so-called religious freedom. Technically, that gives us the right to pray to whoever we wish to pray to. Whether the kid is praying for or to President Obama, that his right to do either. While I am not religious at all, I do have a problem with anybody who infringes on the rights of others by denying or trying to take away that right.

[Bean Bag]

As an isolated case, a boy praying to Obama is simply weird.  To some it's alarming and spooky.  But in the end, sure -- who cares -- he can pray to a cupcake if he thinks it gives him his Ju-Ju. 

What gets me is this.  I see this is as the direct and intended result of the great "separation of Church and State" propaganda that comes almost unanimously from the Left.  I'm really big into irony -- and I believe the Left is a mirror image of reality.  (Rock.  Rock.  Roll.  Plymouth Rock etc.)  They're an inverted reality -- up is down.  They speak of CRISIS during PEACE and pretend there's PEACE during CRISIS.  Arab Spring anybody?

This is all purposeful.  As a result of their cries to separate our state from church -- the State REPLACES the Church.  It's no accident.  It's a trick.  It's no accident this boy is praying to the head of state.  Since I am a person of faith and reason... I know it is IMPOSSIBLE to think we have the ability to separate what is ALL from anything.  It's an illogical statement that defies the laws of the universe.

Of course our state should not embrace a single church or denomination -- as the statement was intended to mean.  That is logical.  What is not logical is pretending to remove something  that will then leave a perpetual void, that will remain pure and perpetually voided and unfilled.

The absence of God at the state-level is too powerful a seat to remain vacant.  So what's emerged?  Winter parties.  No Merry Christmases.  A high-minded ideal of state purity.  A boy praying to Obama.    

I don't mean to speak like it's the final scenes of Ghostbusters -- fire n' brimstone, cats n' dogs living together.  But we all see it.  It's slow and mild and we all gradually accept it as fate.  The shroud of the darkside has fallen.

 

[Heysaboda]

People always seem to forget that "separation of church & state" means separation of religion & state. It was put there so no other religion could be placed above another or become the (endorsed) state religion. It had nothing to do with God and spirituality. The founding fathers all believed in some Supreme Being and that it was guiding them in founding the country, even the Revolution, itself. Over the years it's been perverted into something that it was never meant to be; Godlessness.

I thought that this was an excellent post from yesterday from DrBB, and I quote:

"People always seem to forget that "separation of church & state" means separation of religion & state. It was put there so no other religion could be placed above another or become the (endorsed) state religion. It had nothing to do with God and spirituality."

So, the USA is not a "Chrsitian nation" (thank goodness) but there are those who wish it so.

[drbeachboy]

People always seem to forget that "separation of church & state" means separation of religion & state. It was put there so no other religion could be placed above another or become the (endorsed) state religion. It had nothing to do with God and spirituality. The founding fathers all believed in some Supreme Being and that it was guiding them in founding the country, even the Revolution, itself. Over the years it's been perverted into something that it was never meant to be; Godlessness.

I thought that this was an excellent post from yesterday from DrBB, and I quote:

"People always seem to forget that "separation of church & state" means separation of religion & state. It was put there so no other religion could be placed above another or become the (endorsed) state religion. It had nothing to do with God and spirituality."

So, the USA is not a "Chrsitian nation" (thank goodness) but there are those who wish it so.

Well, at the time of it's writing it was very much a Christian nation in so much as the founding fathers were Christian and more importantly, the laws put in place were based on the Ten Commandments. Religion (the Key Word here) can be multi-Christian faiths, as well as all non-Christian faiths. The point was not to invoke Godlessness, but rather not have one person's God over another. That's a very big difference.