Has Mike Expressed Remorse On Whatever Role He May Have Played in Smile's Demise

[Bicyclerider]

Agree that Brian was unusually sensitive to criticism and it created doubt for him.  He almost gave the song Good Vibrations away.  We don't know what effect Mike's questioning AND Van Dyke's unwillingness to defend his lyrics had on Brian's view of the appropriateness of the Smile music.

To me the ironic thing is that Mike and Van Dyke cast some doubts on the project in Dec 66 with the recording of Cabinessence.  Then Brian has doubts and focuses on the single.  If Brian had stayed true, Mike would have come around - by May/June they all wanted Smile to be finished and released EXCEPT for Brian who decides to junk it.  Mike apparently objected to "sunny down snuff" in December, but was singing it gladly in June.  As others have pointed out, Smiley is just as much of a departure into weirdness as Smile, maybe more so.  Music was evolving rapidly and even Mike was on board for experimentation.  Bt the moment was gone.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

You ever hear the When I Grow Up sessions? "Does this sound like a hit?" The man was insecure, no doubt about it.

[Cam Mott]

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

I think he respected people's opinions but in the studio if they didn't serve his already thought out plan he ignored opinions. You hear it on the tapes. Somebody will have an opinion or suggestion, he will listen, he might even try it, he might accept it, but if it isn't in his zone he will dismiss it out of hand. He only did what he wanted, so Mike nor any of the Boys, or Capitol, influenced Brian to do anything he didn't want. Jimmy Lockert confirmed this to me.

I agree with you regarding Brian ignoring opinions and dismissing them and sometimes accepting them. But that is why I am making my point. Up to that point - 1966-67 - Brian did that, he did what he wanted, regardless of others. But with scrapping SMiLE, was he NOW listening to others, including Mike, and being influenced by their opinions? And we know there were others who weren't totally on board. Weren't some of the other Beach Boys, while not confronting Brian, having some of their own doubts? I read that Murry was making comments. How many others in the Beach Boys' circle were thinking or saying WTF? Ultimately Brian had his doubts, too. Did those doubts come completely from Brian's heart and soul, or were those doubts a product of who was talking and what were they saying? In my opinion, I think it is a no-brainer that Brian was having serious doubts and because of his need for approval (and many people have said that Brian needed approval), Brian was influenced by the people talking, at least to some degree.

All I know is what is in the interviews [including Britz] and tapes and what Jimmy Lockert told me. I mentioned Lockert because he was speaking of the period at the end of SMiLE and through the next 3 albums.  Also if they were pushing Brian to do this and that or not do this or that, why would they [according to Brian] object so hard to Brian's scrapping of the thing they were not happy with and I suppose why Smiley?

[drbeachboy]

The perplexing about Mike Love - and there are many - is that he didn't "get" SMiLE back in the day, he doesn't "get" SMiLE today, and he probably never will.

I always considered Mike to be an intelligent person, certainly sophisticated. Mike was always involved in a lot of other areas with a lot of different people, much more than the other Beach Boys. Mike was involved in other activities outside of The Beach Boys' world which helped him broaden his horizons.

But, unfortunately (?), this did not translate into shaping or advancing Mike's view of music as art. In reading several of Mike's interviews over the years, and several of them on "SMiLE", Mike's view of music as an art form is very simplistic and limited. Some of this is stubborness as it applies to The Beach Boys. Mike has his view on how the group is to be perceived and what musical direction they should pursue, and it goes beyond commercialism and "giving the people what they want". There is too much "this is who were are" and not enough "this is who we could be".

There have been times when I appreciated Mike's stance, and I certainly understand how he got there. To some extent, the experimental, "non-Beach Boyish" music nearly bankrupted the group. And, Mike can - and will - point out how the good old, fun, summer-ry, girl/boy music kept he group going over 52 years. Mike just doesn't budge enough on it, or consider other realms that could complement his vision of the band. I guess you could sat Mike doesn't equate "art" with the Beach Boys outside of that small window which he looks out of. And, as we know, he always uses statistics to back him up.

That being said, no, Mike doesn't owe anybody an apology. I think in 1966-67 Brian still respected Mike as a lead singer, lyricist, front man, and someone who is was in touch with the Beach Boys' audience. Mike's problems with Van Dyke Parks' lyrics might've at the very least prompted Brian to think about the words. However, Brian might've already been experiencing some doubts, I don't know. And, I'm sure Mike wasn't the only one with some reservations about SMiLE, although he's the only one who will admit it. And that was Mike's sin. He spoke up. And nobody challenges Brian Wilson - even though Mike's main problem wasn't with Brian, but with Van Dyke's lyrics. Now, some might think that Mike or anybody shouldn't have been questioning anything concerning Brian Wilson at that time in his career, but that's for another thread...

As has been stated, it really doesn't matter what Mike thought about Smile.

If Brian respected Mike's opinion, and I think he did, then it did matter. We'll never know just how much it mattered because the parties have been reluctant to discuss the various SMiLE issues in depth, and/or they have a problem at times telling the truth. But, even if Mike's negative opinion of Van Dyke's lyrics had just a little bit of an influence over Brian's SMiLE psyche, then it was significant. Nothing to apologize for, just significant.

Mike has stated over & over that he loved the music. I doubt Brian felt all that threatened by Mike's issue with the lyrics, especially after he went in and sang them beautifully. Brian's psyche was not Mike's issue. Back then, I doubt they really knew how fragile he was starting to become. It would be years before anyone fully understood all of Brian's issues. I've seen nothing to suggest that Brian was none other than Commander in Chief in the studio.

Mike has said some good things about the music many years after the fact. Was he saying those same things at the time in question - 1966-67? Like I said, based on what has been said and more importantly, what hasn't been said over the ensuing 46 years, it's hard to tell how much Mike's "issues" with the lyrics affected BRIAN'S EVOLVING OPINION OF THE LYRICS AND SMiLE. Didn't Van Dyke Parks say in some interviews (not that I trust every word HE says either) that Brian eventually started to question some SMiLE "things", which contributed to Parks' leaving. I do know that Brian has repeatedly said that he didn't think the public was ready or accepting of SMiLE at that particular time. Do you not think that Mike's (and other dissenting) opinions didn't play ANY part in Brian feeling that way? Brian could be as stubborn as anybody, but I also read that he was very influenced by what others thought about his music. There are several examples of him not wanting to release certain songs because he was unsure about them or their acceptance by the public.

If it is so hard to tell exactly what Mike or anyone was thinking then, why try to put words in his mouth now. You know nothing more about it than anybody else. Taking from what we do know, Brian was still the man in the studio and the guys were following along, planning to release Smile, good or bad.

[Cam Mott]

How would anything the Boys thought effect SMiLE if they were doing it anyway?

I think you are looking in the wrong place for that kind of influence. I think the place to look for that is between the co-creators, actual arguing is described by Vosse and Anderle with Anderle saying specifically the significant thing was the two fighting over the lyrics being to sophisticated and the music not sophisticated enough. Still VDP did his job to his best and Brian did it his own way.

[clack]

Why are people still so hung up on Mike and Smile? He had next to nothing to do with its being abandoned.

If we're talking regrets and abandoned BB projects, it was Carl who was responsible for the mid-90's Paley/Don Was album not coming to pass. Brian had some great songs imo, but it was Carl, reportedly, who pulled the plug because he felt that the material was not commercial enough. Imagine the crap he would be getting if it were Mike, not Carl,  who pulled the plug because the songs weren't commercial.

Brian was apparently highly enthused (and rightly so) about his 1st post-Landy project. If Mike hurt Brian's feelings over doubts about Smile, how did you think Brian felt about Carl rejecting Brian's labor of love?

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Just curious if people think that Brian is still as determined and headstrong today as he was in 1967 when he pulled Smile without any influence from anybody.

[Cam Mott]

Just curious if people think that Brian is still as determined and headstrong today as he was in 1967 when he pulled Smile without any influence from anybody.

I think he might be. He might deliberately delegate lots of the work but still uses the hammer when he wants or doesn't want something in the studio ie. his shut down of Al's persistence during TWGMTR.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Just curious if people think that Brian is still as determined and headstrong today as he was in 1967 when he pulled Smile without any influence from anybody.

I think he might be.

In that case, do you disagree with this statement from runners:

honestly don't think Mike's disapproval of some of the lyrics for the album was really a major factor in Smile's demise, despite what David Leaf coerced out of Brian

[runnersdialzero]

He even criticized Summer's Gone from the latest album as not being uplifting enough and implied it would have been better if he had written the lyrics!

Did this actually happen? Mike's implied suicide hand gesture from the Rolling Stone article was very, very, very obviously a joke about how the song was sad, to me. I laughed when I read it and never imagined people would twist it into "Mike thinks 'Summer's Gone' is lousy" or him being critical of it.

He said something about "too much cumulus for me" - i.e. too cloudy, not "sunny" enough - and implied if he had written it it would have been less gloomy.  Maybe someone with the article can quote the part in question.  Mike didn't want Til I Die on Surf's Up because he thought it was depressing and a downer.  None of this was meant as a "joke" - that's Mike's viewpoint.   He feels Brian needs him to counterbalance the melancholy of Brian's music.  get some "girl- boy" or "fun in the sun"  in there, make it more "upbeat" or "commercial.". I think most of us are glad Til I Die and Summer's Gone made it on to their respective albums.  And that Mike put some relatable lyrics into Good Vibrations?

You're assuming way too much, here. I'll admit maybe I did too saying it was "obviously a joke", but not nearly to the extent you have, here.

It's never been said Mike didn't want "Til I Die" on Surf's Up (as always, his voice is on the song!), just thought he was likely the unnamed band member who called the song a "downer". Never said he disliked it (again, he's on it, basically as the lead on the tag), never said he wouldn't work on the song, just that it was a "downer", which, in a way, it is. It's too good to depress me much, it's nice in terms of being able to relate to from time to time, but still.

You assume he didn't want it on the album, you assume you know exactly the context of the gun-motion-thing, you assume he'd write "fun in the sun" lyrics to "Summer's Gone", a piece which doesn't call for anything of the sort (let's remember this guy co-wrote "The Warmth Of The Sun" with Brian), and then you assume Mike didn't want "Summer's Gone" on the new album.

I don't get this kind of stuff. Mike has done enough bullshit over the years. The Hall Of Fame speech, donating to the PMRC, the total cheeseball appearances on sh*t like Baywatch, thinking Summer In Paradise was releasable, some of the circumstances surrounding the end of the C50 tour, etc. There's really no need to invent and assume more things to throw on the fire, the guy has done enough.

While we're at it, have we all forgotten that Mike's "let me explain to you how I'm kind of an asshole, but not as much of an asshole as you might think" press letter last year directly quoted "Summer's Gone" in a positive light? What does that tell you?

I don't mean to criticize you, sorry if it seems like it, I just don't understand.

[Dancing Bear]

When will Brian or Van Dyke apologize or show regrets about anything concerning Smile? NEVER. Why should Mike?

[Cam Mott]

Just curious if people think that Brian is still as determined and headstrong today as he was in 1967 when he pulled Smile without any influence from anybody.

I think he might be.

In that case, do you disagree with this statement from runners:

honestly don't think Mike's disapproval of some of the lyrics for the album was really a major factor in Smile's demise, despite what David Leaf coerced out of Brian

I have no idea if David Leaf coerced Brian but as I said earlier I believe any minor complaints from the Boys didn't change anything about SMiLE that Brian wanted .

[MBE]

Groups don't always see eye to eye, but I really look at what the Beach Boys did as a whole from 1961-73. I still think they had an unbeatable creative run they should all be proud of. That run will provide people with joy and great music for all time. What else can an artist ever ask for? 

[Mikie]

Three pages in and there's still no answer for the op at the top of the thread. Mike contributed to Smile's demise. Anybody who denies it clearly hasn't read up on its history.

Maybe somebody should ask Mike the question point blank.  More than likely his answer will be negative.

[drbeachboy]

Three pages in and there's still no answer for the op at the top of the thread. Mike contributed to Smile's demise. Anybody who denies it clearly hasn't read up on its history.

Maybe somebody should ask Mike the question point blank.  More than likely his answer will be negative.

I'll answer and say no. Why? Because he doesn't need to. Brian shelved it, nobody else.

[drbeachboy]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

“I threw it away. I junked it. I thought it was inappropriate music for us to make.”

[runnersdialzero]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd say when he's not being prodded by David Leaf saying "REMEMBER BRIAN. REMEMBER HOW MIKE BULLIED YOU AND THREATENED TO POKE YOU IN THE EYE AND CALL YOU A NITWIT IF YOU DIDN'T CANCELL SMILE AND PUT OUT 'STILL SURFIN' USA' INSTEAD", Brian will generally say "It was too advanced", too much drugs, or that he junked it because was worried people wouldn't like it, which is basically copping to it being his fault.

[drbeachboy]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

“I threw it away. I junked it. I thought it was inappropriate music for us to make.”

He lied. Smiley Smile was way more inappropriate than Smile. That's what I meant by the excuses.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

“I threw it away. I junked it. I thought it was inappropriate music for us to make.”

He lied. Smiley Smile was way more inappropriate than Smile. That's what I meant by the excuses.

It depends what he means by inappropriate. If he means that the Smile songs were too overblown, bombastic, and not oriented towards the strengths of the group members, then Smiley as a more simplistic album recorded by the band, would be way more appropriate.

[Cam Mott]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd have to disagree, Brian regularly and openly took the responsibility at the time and after, no big whoop. He himself had a long list of his reasons for scrapping it and none of them were because of the Boys, just the opposite. Not sure why it is so hard to accept Brian's own words on the subject.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd have to disagree, Brian regularly and openly took the responsibility at the time and after, no big whoop. He himself had a long list of his reasons for scrapping it and none of them were because of the Boys, just the opposite. Not sure why it is so hard to accept Brian's own words on the subject.

Except, of course, when he blames Mike Love.

[drbeachboy]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd have to disagree, Brian regularly and openly took the responsibility at the time and after, no big whoop. He himself had a long list of his reasons for scrapping it and none of them were because of the Boys, just the opposite. Not sure why it is so hard to accept Brian's own words on the subject.

Well, I meant more like "The Truth". He did a lot lying like burning the tapes, etc. I mean the Mike part of this whole Smile drama is mostly fan myth. Even all the stuff that Brian said just added to the myth. The truth of it all is only finally coming out in drips and drabs.

[Cam Mott]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

I'd have to disagree, Brian regularly and openly took the responsibility at the time and after, no big whoop. He himself had a long list of his reasons for scrapping it and none of them were because of the Boys, just the opposite. Not sure why it is so hard to accept Brian's own words on the subject.

Except, of course, when he blames Mike Love.

Yep, except for that one time 40 years later.

[drbeachboy]

The real question that should be asked is: Has Brian Wilson ever taken a tiny bit of responsibility for SMiLE's demise? To that I'll also say no. He has used all kinds of excuses, but he really never took responsibility.

“I threw it away. I junked it. I thought it was inappropriate music for us to make.”

He lied. Smiley Smile was way more inappropriate than Smile. That's what I meant by the excuses.

It depends what he means by inappropriate. If he means that the Smile songs were too overblown, bombastic, and not oriented towards the strengths of the group members, then Smiley as a more simplistic album recorded by the band, would be way more appropriate.

You are right about the meaning of inappropriate. On the other hand, I don't find Smile to be all that overblown when compared to Pet Sounds or any of the Wall of Sound productions that came before. You have to admit that except for Party, the simplistic approach was more non-Beach Boys than Smile. Also, the vocals are just as beautiful on Smile as on Smiley Smile.