Carl and Mike's relationship

[Cam Mott]

Does anybody else find the "only me and Brian in a room together writing songs" statements by Mike kind of weird? Its not like Brian is that helpless and manipulated by other people to stay away from Mike.

I think he kind of is. I think what Mike wants is very a very simple and rational thing: to hang out with his cousin and write some songs together. No producers, no money, no pressure, no "people", no politics, just some cousins/friends in a room writing some songs. That's how good music is written and always has been. If anyone needs to leave the room, they can. I think people around Brian stand in the way of that, and that kind of sucks.

Its not Brian or his people totally shut Mike out, they let him write lyrics for songs on the album and gave him an executive producer credit. Even in 2006, Brian gave him a backing track to write lyrics to, but Mike rejected it. Writing with Brian, imo, for Mike is controling the creative process. Maybe MIU part 2 if worse comes to worse.

They let him? Another example of Brian setting conditions and Mike tolerating it.

[Nicko1234]

I wasn't limiting it to just last year.

I know you weren't but I don't think it's fair to talking about Brian letting Mike down in the present tense based on stuff that happened 30+ years ago.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Holland had gone to #36 and 15 BO went to #8 and LY to #53. I don't know if all of the fanecdotal justifications are true or not but it seems the public's support was pretty well expressed with its bucks. If I had a band I think this would tell me a story about my public support.

You are being surprisingly naive in your underestimating of the power of Endless Summer and Spirit Of America. While I love 15 Big Ones and Love You as much as anybody, their commercial success is almost directly related (i.e. riding the coattails) to fans wanting more fun in the sun classics. If you want a truer indication of the merits, or lack of, of 15 Big Ones and Love You, it might be more applicable to look at how many fans hung around for M.I.U. By that time many fans had enough of these new - or now "older" - Beach Boys and were content with the comps of the classic oldies.

I also wanted to mention that in addition to the 1976 NBC-TV special and Brian's TV appearances, Mike and Al appeared on the Mike Douglas TV show, the Beach Boys appeared on the cover of People magazine, Brian appeared on the cover of Rolling Stone, and there were other "greatest hits" albums surfacing.

I'm not sure I understand you, I just posted the numbers for ES and SoA. The public wanted oldies, they still want oldies, they had been wanting oldies and they didn't want the Boys' new music so much. I agree the public did not want MIU either. Or Friends, 20/20, Sunflower, or CATP. What are you saying?

We can go on arguing about every little word Mike has ever uttered, but I think there is larger point to be made, and that's the simple fact that The Beach Boys were fated from day one to have their "oldies" run their universe. Be it folks craving nostalgia, blame it on Mike all you want (or Brian) but if the Beach Boys wanted to avoid their oldies they should have just prevented themselves back in the day from recording such earth shattering classics. These songs are in the DNA of California and the universe. People will always clamor of the fun-in-the-sun oldies simply because they are THAT GOOD!

[runnersdialzero]

Its not Brian or his people totally shut Mike out, they let him write lyrics for songs on the album

Which can be done at a distance.

and gave him an executive producer credit.

Meaning Mike listened to the final album and said "Okay", and even then we've been told Capitol made tracklist decisions. In other words, Mike didn't have much say.

Even in 2006, Brian gave him a backing track to write lyrics to, but Mike rejected it. Writing with Brian, imo, for Mike is controling the creative process.

I don't know if Mike wants to "control" the creative process, but he probably wants some control, and why shouldn't he be allowed to have some along with Brian, Al, Dave and Bruce?

Maybe MIU part 2 if worse comes to worse.

Buh? I don't see that as likely at all. Very different times. I'm not saying don't involve producers etc. throughout the entire process, but let's start with letting these guys write some fucking songs like human beings for once since the 60s or 70s.

[Shady]

400 posts later..I'm still not sure what kind of relationship Carl and Mike had

[SMiLE Brian]

Does anybody else find the "only me and Brian in a room together writing songs" statements by Mike kind of weird? Its not like Brian is that helpless and manipulated by other people to stay away from Mike.

I think he kind of is. I think what Mike wants is very a very simple and rational thing: to hang out with his cousin and write some songs together. No producers, no money, no pressure, no "people", no politics, just some cousins/friends in a room writing some songs. That's how good music is written and always has been. If anyone needs to leave the room, they can. I think people around Brian stand in the way of that, and that kind of sucks.

Its not Brian or his people totally shut Mike out, they let him write lyrics for songs on the album and gave him an executive producer credit. Even in 2006, Brian gave him a backing track to write lyrics to, but Mike rejected it. Writing with Brian, imo, for Mike is controling the creative process. Maybe MIU part 2 if worse comes to worse.

They let him? Another example of Brian setting conditions and Mike tolerating it.

Who said the BBs were a democracy, even in the glory days Mike called Brian "The Stalin of the Studio"

[SMiLE Brian]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

[Cam Mott]

I wasn't limiting it to just last year.

I know you weren't but I don't think it's fair to talking about Brian letting Mike down in the present tense based on stuff that happened 30+ years ago.

Fair enough but the context of the interview in question goes back to 1965 at least.

[Cam Mott]

Does anybody else find the "only me and Brian in a room together writing songs" statements by Mike kind of weird? Its not like Brian is that helpless and manipulated by other people to stay away from Mike.

I think he kind of is. I think what Mike wants is very a very simple and rational thing: to hang out with his cousin and write some songs together. No producers, no money, no pressure, no "people", no politics, just some cousins/friends in a room writing some songs. That's how good music is written and always has been. If anyone needs to leave the room, they can. I think people around Brian stand in the way of that, and that kind of sucks.

Its not Brian or his people totally shut Mike out, they let him write lyrics for songs on the album and gave him an executive producer credit. Even in 2006, Brian gave him a backing track to write lyrics to, but Mike rejected it. Writing with Brian, imo, for Mike is controling the creative process. Maybe MIU part 2 if worse comes to worse.

They let him? Another example of Brian setting conditions and Mike tolerating it.

Who said the BBs were a democracy, even in the glory days Mike called Brian "The Stalin of the Studio"

Yes, another example of Brian setting conditions and Mike et al tolerating it.  It doesn't mean he can't be more democratic.

[runnersdialzero]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

That was twenty years ago, though. Folks' sense of time gets totally warped when talking about music, for some reason. It's like yeah, their last album of original material was Summer In Paradise, but it was 21 years ago and done under totally different circumstances. Also, we've never heard the Mike and Brian 90s songs, have we?

Also, I'm not sayin' Mike and Brian should write the entire album and should do so with zero input from others, but I do think it'd be cool to see what initial results could come of that. Have the band write and THEN have a Joe Thomas or a Scott Bennett character come in with suggestions and possibly revisions and editing if need be, but try to be as hands off as possible. And hey, if Brian and Joe Thomas or whoever write something really cool, toss that into the hat of possibilities as well. I don't know, I think this approach is worlds simpler and would get better results overall.

I think it could result in the Beach Boys actually being closer to being a band of human beings again as opposed to what they are now: a bunch of different corporate entities and camps whom are constantly being spiteful to one another and trying to one up the other guy back and forth. It's all totally cold, sterile, and too much attention is given to the "people" around the band, the money, the egos etc. rather than five human beings and their songs. I just feel like we'd be seeing a lot more peace and a functional group again as opposed to the clusterfuck of now.

Mike and Brian wrote "Warmth Of The Sun" in one night at Brian's house at his piano. Just two guys in a house with a piano. "Surfin'" was written by a bunch of kids in a garage for the love of playing music, nothing more. I'm not saying they're gonna come up with things as good as "Warmth Of The Sun", that's almost irrelevant to everything I said, I'd just like to see some simplicity brought back into the picture.

[leggo of my ego]

400 posts later..I'm still not sure what kind of relationship Carl and Mike had

Whata ya want, Shady? Us to get on topic?

[SMiLE Brian]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

That was twenty years ago, though. Folks' sense of time gets totally warped when talking about music, for some reason. It's like yeah, their last album of original material was Summer In Paradise, but it was 21 years ago and done under totally different circumstances. Also, we've never heard the Mike and Brian 90s songs, have we?

Also, I'm not sayin' Mike and Brian should write the entire album and should do so with zero input from others, but I do think it'd be cool to see what initial results could come of that. Have the band write and THEN have a Joe Thomas or a Scott Bennett character come in with suggestions and possibly revisions and editing if need be, but try to be as hands off as possible. And hey, if Brian and Joe Thomas or whoever write something really cool, toss that into the hat of possibilities as well. I don't know, I think this approach is worlds simpler and would get better results overall.

I think it could result in the Beach Boys actually being closer to being a band of human beings again as opposed to what they are now: a bunch of different corporate entities and camps whom are constantly being spiteful to one another and trying to one up the other guy back and forth. It's all totally cold, sterile, and too much attention is given to the "people" around the band, the money, the egos etc. rather than five human beings and their songs. I just feel like we'd be seeing a lot more peace and a functional group again as opposed to the clusterfuck of now.

Mike and Brian wrote "Warmth Of The Sun" in one night at Brian's house at his piano. Just two guys in a house with a piano. "Surfin'" was written by a bunch of kids in a garage for the love of playing music, nothing more. I'm not saying they're gonna come up with things as good as "Warmth Of The Sun", that's almost irrelevant to everything I said, I'd just like to see some simplicity brought back into the picture.

Great post Runners! I agree about the messed up dynamics of the group, but I don't think anything can be done since these guys are crazy after 50 years of madness.

[runnersdialzero]

DON'T PUNCH ME

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

That was twenty years ago, though. Folks' sense of time gets totally warped when talking about music, for some reason. It's like yeah, their last album of original material was Summer In Paradise, but it was 21 years ago and done under totally different circumstances. Also, we've never heard the Mike and Brian 90s songs, have we?

Also, I'm not sayin' Mike and Brian should write the entire album and should do so with zero input from others, but I do think it'd be cool to see what initial results could come of that. Have the band write and THEN have a Joe Thomas or a Scott Bennett character come in with suggestions and possibly revisions and editing if need be, but try to be as hands off as possible. And hey, if Brian and Joe Thomas or whoever write something really cool, toss that into the hat of possibilities as well. I don't know, I think this approach is worlds simpler and would get better results overall.

I think it could result in the Beach Boys actually being closer to being a band of human beings again as opposed to what they are now: a bunch of different corporate entities and camps whom are constantly being spiteful to one another and trying to one up the other guy back and forth. It's all totally cold, sterile, and too much attention is given to the "people" around the band, the money, the egos etc. rather than five human beings and their songs. I just feel like we'd be seeing a lot more peace and a functional group again as opposed to the clusterfuck of now.

Mike and Brian wrote "Warmth Of The Sun" in one night at Brian's house at his piano. Just two guys in a house with a piano. "Surfin'" was written by a bunch of kids in a garage for the love of playing music, nothing more. I'm not saying they're gonna come up with things as good as "Warmth Of The Sun", that's almost irrelevant to everything I said, I'd just like to see some simplicity brought back into the picture.

You bring up a great point. People wonder why Mike won't write words like Warmth Of The Sun to a track that Brian sends him via Fed Ex or whatever from Joe Thomas via this courier and that courtier with this stipulation and that demand.... The magic of two guys in a room is the guy feeling out chords/melodies on the piano or guitar can tell the other guy how these melodies/chores make him feel. They can have a discussion about where their moods are at in the moment and the song's lyrics can take on the character of this mood.... You can't get this effect via any other process....

[SMiLE Brian]

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[EthanJames]

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I've always wondered why Carl was the only Beach Boy that never dressed like a beach type person

[Jim V.]

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I've always wondered why Carl was the only Beach Boy that never dressed like a beach type person

Self respect possibly?

[Cam Mott]

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I've always wondered why Carl was the only Beach Boy that never dressed like a beach type person

He didn't get any of the memoes?

[EthanJames]

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I've always wondered why Carl was the only Beach Boy that never dressed like a beach type person

Self respect possibly?

True, True.

[Wirestone]

Runners, I don't think Mike fully understood Brian's new creative process for the last 15 years and was disappointed to see how things had changed. Brian wrote songs with Mike in the 1990s but nothing much came out of that, the Baywatch nights song was apparently horrible.

That was twenty years ago, though. Folks' sense of time gets totally warped when talking about music, for some reason. It's like yeah, their last album of original material was Summer In Paradise, but it was 21 years ago and done under totally different circumstances. Also, we've never heard the Mike and Brian 90s songs, have we?

Also, I'm not sayin' Mike and Brian should write the entire album and should do so with zero input from others, but I do think it'd be cool to see what initial results could come of that. Have the band write and THEN have a Joe Thomas or a Scott Bennett character come in with suggestions and possibly revisions and editing if need be, but try to be as hands off as possible. And hey, if Brian and Joe Thomas or whoever write something really cool, toss that into the hat of possibilities as well. I don't know, I think this approach is worlds simpler and would get better results overall.

I think it could result in the Beach Boys actually being closer to being a band of human beings again as opposed to what they are now: a bunch of different corporate entities and camps whom are constantly being spiteful to one another and trying to one up the other guy back and forth. It's all totally cold, sterile, and too much attention is given to the "people" around the band, the money, the egos etc. rather than five human beings and their songs. I just feel like we'd be seeing a lot more peace and a functional group again as opposed to the clusterfuck of now.

Mike and Brian wrote "Warmth Of The Sun" in one night at Brian's house at his piano. Just two guys in a house with a piano. "Surfin'" was written by a bunch of kids in a garage for the love of playing music, nothing more. I'm not saying they're gonna come up with things as good as "Warmth Of The Sun", that's almost irrelevant to everything I said, I'd just like to see some simplicity brought back into the picture.

You bring up a great point. People wonder why Mike won't write words like Warmth Of The Sun to a track that Brian sends him via Fed Ex or whatever from Joe Thomas via this courier and that courtier with this stipulation and that demand.... The magic of two guys in a room is the guy feeling out chords/melodies on the piano or guitar can tell the other guy how these melodies/chores make him feel. They can have a discussion about where their moods are at in the moment and the song's lyrics can take on the character of this mood.... You can't get this effect via any other process....

The real problem, though, is that you have to have a level of comfort and repartee between the two people for something like that to happen. And I get the impression that Brian is generally too weirded out or paranoid around other people to truly collaborate on anything these days. Most of his writing over the last 25 years seems to be very solitary. He puts together a chord sequence or tune or chorus and hands it over for someone to slap some lyrics on or add a verse. Most of the Bennett and Thomas collabs were done in this way, too.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And we wonder why that certain magic isn't there.....

[Phoenix]

TWGMTR is no more of a Brian solo album rather than Beach Boys album than Pet Sounds or Smile.  Mike even has a few (real) songwriting credits on the more recent effort, making it MORE of a "group effort."

[Chocolate Shake Man]

And we wonder why that certain magic isn't there.....

Yeah, but how many great pop artists from the 50s and 60s still reveal that certain magic?

[EthanJames]

And we wonder why that certain magic isn't there.....

Yeah, but how many great pop artists from the 50s and 60s still reveal that certain magic?

Only a few.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,4637.0.html

I made a similar topic 6 years ago. It had one response. Which is probably all that needs to be said on Carl and Mike unless we know more.