Jan & Dean - Norwegian Wood - Brian Wilson BV's?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I think the Wilson-Berry relationship was a very important one.  Spector may have been Brian's sonic inspiration at one point, but I'd be willing to bet that in some ways, Jan taught Brian a thing or two about working in the studio that ended up paying off.

What I think is more interesting than any similarities between the Beach Boys and Jan & Dean is the differences.  Because Brian and Jan were both such creative arrangers and producers, in a sense using a similar idiom, using the same musicians, and yet the full extension of these things diverged.

Jan could never do something like IJWMFTT, in the same way Brian could never do something like AACSSBRTA.  Their individual imprints are so unique.  Even the way they wrote for groups of instruments.  Brian and Jan had totally different ways of using guitars, for example.  And Jan's more schooled writing for woodwinds stands out against Brian's alternation between fairly stock writing for horns and woodwinds, and occasionally going pretty out there.

Anyway.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

I think the Wilson-Berry relationship was a very important one.  Spector may have been Brian's sonic inspiration at one point, but I'd be willing to bet that in some ways, Jan taught Brian a thing or two about working in the studio that ended up paying off.

Perhaps this is an oversimplification, but the way I've always understood it is that while Spector was Brian's idol, Berry was his mentor.  As such, Spector and Berry were probably the two biggest influences on Brian as a producer.

In addition to that, the Wilson-Berry relationship left us with some fantastic songs.  Claims of its importance require no justification beyond "The New Girl in School" or "Ride the Wild Surf."

[Mitchell]

I agree with the above and, to comment on what Josh said, I find Jan used brass more whereas Brian used woodwinds more.

[monicker]

I think the Wilson-Berry relationship was a very important one.  Spector may have been Brian's sonic inspiration at one point, but I'd be willing to bet that in some ways, Jan taught Brian a thing or two about working in the studio that ended up paying off.

What I think is more interesting than any similarities between the Beach Boys and Jan & Dean is the differences.  Because Brian and Jan were both such creative arrangers and producers, in a sense using a similar idiom, using the same musicians, and yet the full extension of these things diverged.

Jan could never do something like IJWMFTT, in the same way Brian could never do something like AACSSBRTA.  Their individual imprints are so unique.  Even the way they wrote for groups of instruments.  Brian and Jan had totally different ways of using guitars, for example.  And Jan's more schooled writing for woodwinds stands out against Brian's alternation between fairly stock writing for horns and woodwinds, and occasionally going pretty out there.

Anyway.

Thanks for constructive and informative comments/insights. Some honored guests are actually an honor to have around. Imagine that.

I’d be interested in hearing you elaborate on the guitar style differences, as well as what you mean by things taught to Brian by Jan that ended up “paying off”--not really sure what you mean by that. When i have this discussion with others about the Spector/Brian similarities/influence, like the IJWMFTT example you mentioned above, i always mention certain songs/productions that the other one could’ve never, or maybe wouldn’t have ever, done. I think Brian ended up racking up a bunch more songs/productions that Spector could not have ever done than vice versa.

What are some examples of what you consider Brian going “out there” with woodwind and/or brass writing?

[joshferrell]

Yeah I find Jan Berry to have been a very unique producer and have always liked his stuff..By the way I have been looking for the "Filet of soul" acetates cd and cannot find it anywhere, I have the J&D anthology that has some of it and the "Official" "Filet if soul" but can't find Jan Berry's original comedy version in full.. I would love to find it.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I think the Wilson-Berry relationship was a very important one.  Spector may have been Brian's sonic inspiration at one point, but I'd be willing to bet that in some ways, Jan taught Brian a thing or two about working in the studio that ended up paying off.

What I think is more interesting than any similarities between the Beach Boys and Jan & Dean is the differences.  Because Brian and Jan were both such creative arrangers and producers, in a sense using a similar idiom, using the same musicians, and yet the full extension of these things diverged.

Jan could never do something like IJWMFTT, in the same way Brian could never do something like AACSSBRTA.  Their individual imprints are so unique.  Even the way they wrote for groups of instruments.  Brian and Jan had totally different ways of using guitars, for example.  And Jan's more schooled writing for woodwinds stands out against Brian's alternation between fairly stock writing for horns and woodwinds, and occasionally going pretty out there.

Anyway.

Thanks for constructive and informative comments/insights. Some honored guests are actually an honor to have around. Imagine that.

I’d be interested in hearing you elaborate on the guitar style differences, as well as what you mean by things taught to Brian by Jan that ended up “paying off”--not really sure what you mean by that. When i have this discussion with others about the Spector/Brian similarities/influence, like the IJWMFTT example you mentioned above, i always mention certain songs/productions that the other one could’ve never, or maybe wouldn’t have ever, done. I think Brian ended up racking up a bunch more songs/productions that Spector could not have ever done than vice versa.

What are some examples of what you consider Brian going “out there” with woodwind and/or brass writing?

Oh, you're going to make me back up my ramblings with hard examples, huh?  Let me do that when it's not 1 AM.  I will give it a go, though.

[MBE]

Jan was an important teacher to Brian and Brian gave Jan a new direction. They were a great match for each other. I like Norwegian Wood by Jan & Dean, especially the single mix. It shows Jan would have deftly brought his mix of satire and production sheen into the second half of the decade.

[Mitchell]

You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy is Jan and Dean's "Spector" track and probably the closest to Pet Sounds style... Just thought I'd mention it as one basis for comparison. Interesting that the album it was on, Pop Symphony No. 1 is an attempt to branch into more "serious" music. Great album!

[Aegir]

the Pop Symphony No. 1 version is just an instrumental. the version with vocals doesn't sound serious at all.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've never heard a Jan & Dean vocal that I consider sincere.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

the Pop Symphony No. 1 version is just an instrumental. the version with vocals doesn't sound serious at all.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've never heard a Jan & Dean vocal that I consider sincere.

Out of curiosity, in what context have you listened to them?  For a long time I dismissed them as poor imitators of The Beach Boys, but decided I should give them a chance when I learned that they were around before the Beach Boys and a major influence on Brian.  I bought "The Complete Liberty Singles" and was totally won over after the first listen.  Certainly humor was an important element of their music, but there are plenty of vocals from them that are sincere.  For other sincere ballads, I would point to "It's As Easy as 1, 2, 3" and "A Surfer's Dream."

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I've always found "I Found a Girl" to be a very emotionally affecting track and vocal.

[Aegir]

the Pop Symphony No. 1 version is just an instrumental. the version with vocals doesn't sound serious at all.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've never heard a Jan & Dean vocal that I consider sincere.

Out of curiosity, in what context have you listened to them?  For a long time I dismissed them as poor imitators of The Beach Boys, but decided I should give them a chance when I learned that they were around before the Beach Boys and a major influence on Brian.  I bought "The Complete Liberty Singles" and was totally won over after the first listen.  Certainly humor was an important element of their music, but there are plenty of vocals from them that are sincere.  For other sincere ballads, I would point to "It's As Easy as 1, 2, 3" and "A Surfer's Dream."

Yeah, I'm not like an uneducated Jan & Dean fan. I have like 12 J&D albums, I've been listening to them as long as I've been listening to the Beach Boys (about a decade). I'm listening to Jan & Dean right now! Definitely not as obsessed with them as with the Beach Boys, but I couldn't say that about any other band.

I don't think it's a coincidence that both the songs you mentioned are Jill Gibson co-writes/co-leads. She takes the edge off but I still hear a bit of pastiche in both those songs. "A Surfer's Dream" much less so. "It's As Easy as 1, 2, 3" is one of my favorite Jan & Dean songs, actually.

"I Found a Girl", again, very catchy song, I enjoy it a lot, but I can't take it seriously. That instrumental break where the harmonica comes in for like half a second (begins to play the fadeout riff but doesn't), I can't see any serious emotion in that. Most of the brass on J&D records seems like they're making fun of people who put brass on their records.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

the Pop Symphony No. 1 version is just an instrumental. the version with vocals doesn't sound serious at all.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I've never heard a Jan & Dean vocal that I consider sincere.

Out of curiosity, in what context have you listened to them?  For a long time I dismissed them as poor imitators of The Beach Boys, but decided I should give them a chance when I learned that they were around before the Beach Boys and a major influence on Brian.  I bought "The Complete Liberty Singles" and was totally won over after the first listen.  Certainly humor was an important element of their music, but there are plenty of vocals from them that are sincere.  For other sincere ballads, I would point to "It's As Easy as 1, 2, 3" and "A Surfer's Dream."

Yeah, I'm not like an uneducated Jan & Dean fan. I have like 12 J&D albums, I've been listening to them as long as I've been listening to the Beach Boys (about a decade). I'm listening to Jan & Dean right now! Definitely not as obsessed with them as with the Beach Boys, but I couldn't say that about any other band.

I don't think it's a coincidence that both the songs you mentioned are Jill Gibson co-writes/co-leads. She takes the edge off but I still hear a bit of pastiche in both those songs. "A Surfer's Dream" much less so. "It's As Easy as 1, 2, 3" is one of my favorite Jan & Dean songs, actually.

"I Found a Girl", again, very catchy song, I enjoy it a lot, but I can't take it seriously. That instrumental break where the harmonica comes in for like half a second (begins to play the fadeout riff but doesn't), I can't see any serious emotion in that. Most of the brass on J&D records seems like they're making fun of people who put brass on their records.

There's definitely a lot of pastiche in Jan & Dean songs.  For instance, the chord progression at the end of the chorus on "You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy" comes straight from "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling," and the guitar part of the verses of "The Anaheim, Azusa and Cucamonga Sewing Circle, Book Review, & Timing Association" comes from "I Get Around."  I'm not sure that they are necessarily making fun of the songs from which they are quoting, though.  I am also having difficulty hearing what you mean about "I Found a Girl."

As for "1, 2, 3" and "Surfer's Dream," I absolutely agree that Gibson's songwriting and vocal contributions are key.  She has a wonderfully emotive voice.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

"I Found a Girl", again, very catchy song, I enjoy it a lot, but I can't take it seriously. That instrumental break where the harmonica comes in for like half a second (begins to play the fadeout riff but doesn't), I can't see any serious emotion in that. Most of the brass on J&D records seems like they're making fun of people who put brass on their records.

No accounting for taste I guess.  I know what you mean about the sort of "knowing" brass arrangements from time to time, but I think the break in I Found a Girl is beautiful and moving.

[Mitchell]

I meant to edit my post and say "sophisticated" instead of serious... That's probably a better word choice!

[MBE]

I think they did serious music to a point, but yes I do hear a little bit of satire in most all their songs. That's a good thing in my book. I love all of Jan, Dean, and Arnie's 1958-66 records including Save For A Rainy Day.

[Rocker]

I've always found "I Found a Girl" to be a very emotionally affecting track and vocal.

Hell of a production! One of J&D's best imo. Should've been a much bigger hit

You Really Know How to Hurt a Guy is Jan and Dean's "Spector" track and probably the closest to Pet Sounds style... Just thought I'd mention it as one basis for comparison. Interesting that the album it was on, Pop Symphony No. 1 is an attempt to branch into more "serious" music. Great album!

"Folk'n'Roll" has some very deep cuts that are in some way reminding of "Pet sounds"; "A beginning from an end" "It's a shame to say goodbye" and the great "I can't wait to love you" (the latter released as a Jan Berry single).

And of course "Carnival of sound" is a masterpiece.

While Brian and the Beach Boys' did a lot of emotional, introspective stuff, Jan & Dean's point often was - as others already mentioned - the comedy/humour side. In some way I wonder if Jan did with "Batman" what Brian (in his own way of course) wanted to do with Smile.


BTW Anyone know Jan&Dean's version of "Everyone's gone to the moon"? Love the way Jan sings off key at the "out of tune"-part of the lyrics.

[monicker]

Josh, have you heard the song I Know My Mind from Carnival of Sound? That’s always reminded me of some of your singing that i’ve heard.

[smilethebeachboysloveyou]

And of course "Carnival of sound" is a masterpiece.

I'm going to have to disagree with you here.  Don't get me wrong; I like plenty of tracks on Carnival of Sound (particularly "Girl, You're Blowing My Mind," "Fan Tan," and "Love and Hate"), and the attempt to move into psychedelic music produces interesting, if not always successful, results for them.  But in addition to the fact that there's a little too much subpar material for the term masterpiece ("Laurel and Hardy"), I think some of their hits from 1963-1965 are superior to anything on the album.

I admit part of my skepticism about calling it a masterpiece is a reflexive response to the claims I've seen made that Carnival of Sounds proves Jan & Dean could make "serious" music, which I think is condescending to the excellent music they made before Carnival.  I know you weren't trying to make that argument, but I still think it's worth stressing the artistic value of their earlier songs.

[kwan_dk]

Out of curiosity; which Jan & Dean comp should I go for if I want to investigate their catalog further? And also get a fair smattering of deeper cuts?

I've always wanted to like Jan & Dean - a lot of the songs I know are cool and with interesting production. I have a hard time listening to their vocals though, especially Dean's falsetto which really annoys me. (the tracks where PF Sloan stands in for Dean is like getting a breath of fresh air  ...) I guess it's a matter of taste.

[AndrewHickey]

Out of curiosity; which Jan & Dean comp should I go for if I want to investigate their catalog further? And also get a fair smattering of deeper cuts?

I've always wanted to like Jan & Dean - a lot of the songs I know are cool and with interesting production. I have a hard time listening to their vocals though, especially Dean's falsetto which really annoys me. (the tracks where PF Sloan stands in for Dean is like getting a breath of fresh air  ...) I guess it's a matter of taste.

If you don't like Jan & Dean's vocals (and I'm with you on that), you might want to try http://www.amazon.com/Encomium-Memoriam-Vol-Berry-Dean/dp/B001CYZBZW -- it's a tribute CD, using Jan's original charts (though largely using synths for the orchestral parts), featuring versions of a lot of the deep cut stuff like Carnival Of Sound tracks. It also features David Marks, Probyn Gregory, Alan Boyd and other such people. I like it more than any of the actual Jan & Dean records.

[Rocker]

Out of curiosity; which Jan & Dean comp should I go for if I want to investigate their catalog further? And also get a fair smattering of deeper cuts?

Well, you should definitely get this:

http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Liberty-Singles-Jan-Dean/dp/B001AVUAIK/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1363554884&sr=1-1&keywords=jan+dean+liberty

I think it's the only place you can find all their singles for Liberty in Jan's original mono mixes.


There were certainly better singers out there but the two of them harmonized really well together. Dean's lead on "Yesterday" is great and Jan had a voice very similar to Mike's.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Out of curiosity; which Jan & Dean comp should I go for if I want to investigate their catalog further? And also get a fair smattering of deeper cuts?

I've always wanted to like Jan & Dean - a lot of the songs I know are cool and with interesting production. I have a hard time listening to their vocals though, especially Dean's falsetto which really annoys me. (the tracks where PF Sloan stands in for Dean is like getting a breath of fresh air  ...) I guess it's a matter of taste.

There's two comps you should consider:

All The Hits: From Surf City To Drag City - includes some pre-Liberty material, but a caveat: most, if not all, the tracks are remixed and disc space is wasted on pointless radio spots. That said, an excellent introduction.

The Complete Liberty Singles - does exactly what it says on the tin, and in mono too.

[MBE]

On vinyl nothing beats The Jan and Dean anthology from 1972. Cool pic of Brian in there too.

[Mitchell]

Agreed on the above, and Save for a Rainy Day and Carnival of Sound if you want to see what they did the post-accident era. I love SFARD but it's all Dean leads so you may not like it.

The All the Hits set does have some cool tracking sessions and bonus tracks, too.