Things that I just don't get about my favorite band (and that piss me off!)

[Chocolate Shake Man]

If we take music critics as a point of reference in evaluating the relevance of a particular band at any given time in history,

We shouldn't

then British media (Melody Maker?) considered The Beach Boys bigger than The Beatles in late 1966.

This was not a case of music critics deciding it - it was a reader poll in NME that happened to be taken while Good Vibrations was a monster smash single and The Beatles hadn't had a new single out in months. It was more of a measure of what happened to be really popular that month, but Beach Boys fans love to make great hay out of it, despite the fact that it doesn't really tell us anything about the overall popularity of either band for anything other than a month in 1966. Furthermore, The Beatles won the poll for Best British Vocal Group while The Beach Boys won for Best World Vocal Group, so it's hardly a case of the Beach Boys beating out the Beatles.

[guitarfool2002]

If you go back to some of the pop music press in fall 1966, there was a sense that the Beatles had in fact broken up. Short of anything official, in fall 1966 John was off filming a movie, Paul was padding around London's art circles, and they had stopped touring.

In those times when information took longer to reach the masses of fans, many fans saw more signs pointing to a fractured Beatles than to a group which would be back with new material.

Brian's timing, then, was *perfect* to release Good Vibrations. There was a void among fans looking for new music that his record filled. Unfortunately one cannot control such things, as The Beatles proved by hitting the US just as the US was coming out of its mourning period after JFK and looking for that something to fill the void.

Brian has said that Good Vibrations was the top - and that he felt he couldn't top it. And he never did. But I also think part of what he implied which no one seems to read in between the lines is that he just happened to be lucky enough in a cosmic/fate kind of way to put that record out at exactly the right time in history, when he was smack-dab in the middle of an artistic Renaissance happening in Los Angeles months before the rest of the nation(s) caught on, he was surrounded by the right people, and he could release a record that 6 months prior may not have had the same impact or success.

And that uncontrolled cosmic/fate thing just happened to shine on the Beatles in June 1967 when their newest release just happened to coincide with the beginning of summer, a summer that through no intent or fault of their own would come to be known as "The Summer Of Love" and where their album Sgt. Pepper would be considered one of the primary soundtracks of that time.

The Beatles did what Brian had done with his revolutionary single in Fall 1966 - they filled the void and provided the audience exactly what they were looking for to fill it. And things like that are pure luck, or some form of fate stepping in and deciding history.

So the Beatles vs. Beach Boys and who-bettered-who polls perhaps only exist as a snapshot of a very active time in pop culture. I don't give them much weight in the long term, only to say this is the effect timing had on both bands/artists who were creating music which perfectly fit that time.

[schiaffino]

Reviving this thread to accommodate for things that also disturb me from the band - didn't know where else to put them.

Ok, someone help me out here. The more I try to understand it, the less I get it and the more disturbed I become. The song 'Little Tomboy'...first, who wrote those lyrics? second, what in the name of the Lord was he thinking of? third, who thought this was a good idea to be recorded and released in a BB album? and fourth, who let Brian 'promote' this song on a live interview? see link below, starting on 0:32 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_n0ITu2qJU

I know some will say its part of where Brian's mind was at the time. My question then, was his mind in a completely sexually deranged state? If so, whatever, he was sick and had a doctor's note. But why, why no one else in the band vetoed this song???

Its not even a good song. It doesn't add a thing to the band's catalog. Its not experimental, nor part of a grandeur oeuvre - as 'Pick you up" was in 'Love you', although I have my reservations about that song too. Was it composed around the same time? It makes the whole thing even more disturbing.

Can someone help me understand this?

[modestmaus]

Brian wrote the lyrics. Clearly not checking his privilege.  

I've always wondered why no one vetoed the song either. However, I personally think its crazy catchy and though I'm not fond of the lyrics I am fond of the way Brian sings, "Heyyy little tomboy, I've had my eye on you thinking what a girl you could be.." gosh, I love that gruff 70's Brian voice so much!! I often like to pretend they were just taking the piss and the song is deliberately supposed to piss people off, so if I approach the song like that (it helps a lot that I'm a fan of the band/duo Ween haha) it's easier to digest.

Though, on a much more sober note, I do have a FtM transgender friend who I've shared a lot of Beach Boys music with and I hope to god he never hears that song. :/

Not that I was expecting such things but I was a bit disappointed that The Beach Boys did not work with any or all of the following directors when it came to music videos from TWGMTR: Spike Jonze, Mark Romanek, Michel Gondry. I'm crossing my fingers that if they do another album that they'll get one of those guys or someone with equal talent. Beach Boys music videos are kind of 'meh' so it would be nice if a band that has put out so many great & memorable albums as they have might put out at least one great & memorable music video.

[wantsomecorn]

I've always wondered if the lyrics to "Hey Little Tomboy" were just straight-up misogynistic, or Brian satirizing gender roles and identity. But knowing his state of mind in late 1977...

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Though, on a much more sober note, I do have a FtM transgendered friend who I've shared a lot of Beach Boys music with and I hope to god he never hears that song.

Oddly enough, I have a MtF transgendered friend who actually loves the song, so who knows?

[filledeplage]

Reviving this thread to accommodate for things that also disturb me from the band - didn't know where else to put them.

Ok, someone help me out here. The more I try to understand it, the less I get it and the more disturbed I become. The song 'Little Tomboy'...first, who wrote those lyrics? second, what in the name of the Lord was he thinking of? third, who thought this was a good idea to be recorded and released in a BB album? and fourth, who let Brian 'promote' this song on a live interview? see link below, starting on 0:32 mark:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_n0ITu2qJU

I know some will say its part of where Brian's mind was at the time. My question then, was his mind in a completely sexually deranged state? If so, whatever, he was sick and had a doctor's note. But why, why no one else in the band vetoed this song???

Its not even a good song. It doesn't add a thing to the band's catalog. Its not experimental, nor part of a grandeur oeuvre - as 'Pick you up" was in 'Love you', although I have my reservations about that song too. Was it composed around the same time? It makes the whole thing even more disturbing.

Can someone help me understand this?

Life is too short.  If one goes back to where the Boys were from an inspirational standpoint, you'll probably find thematic stuff, taken in a temporal (time) context.  In the 1940's, pre and post, up to the later 60's and 70's gender roles were pretty fixed.  There was little harm in being a "tomboy" climbing trees, playing baseball, and engaging in sports and activities that we now regard as gender-free.  I think of Women's Hockey, Basketball, etc., which "have come a long way, baby."

Behaviors that might be construed as inappropriate now, as well as concepts of parenting have evolved and changed, but, that "rear view mirror" when we think the "grass was greener" and discussed recently with Disney Girls and Patti Page, is merely a time chunk that is like a rite of passage from yesteryear, and my impression is that Brian is not misogynistic, nor sexist, but looking in a retro rear view mirror with a sort of nostalgia, to a "goddess in the making," and not some evil values-based negative connotation of young women.  There is a sort of timidity, I find endearing, even, in his approach, and his enamorment towards this young lady.  I like "The Waltz" as well, which is also a look back, and whose lyrics are, also, "fixed-in-the-moment." (Gettin' in Over My Head) They represent the artist's point of view. 

There is always a danger in analyzing a point of view from a context of time that no longer exists.  Young girls are encouraged to fully participate in sports and other activities which renders a term such as "tomboy" a nullity and no more threatening, but that "dance" among the genders remains but just with an updated terminology.  I like that song a lot, and I'm a feminist, and, don't find it insulting or demeaning whatever.  And find it a sincere reflection on that era's "Art of Courtly Love." (from the Middle Ages).  

[modestmaus]

That was a fantastic read and gives me quite a bit to think on. Well done, filledeplage.

[bossaroo]

I agree that "Tomboy" is catchy as heck.

The song isn't really that creepy on it's own, it's the fact that a bunch of hairy dudes in their late 30s are singing it. If the song had been sung by David Cassidy or another much younger performer it wouldn't seem so strange. Brian never lost the mentality of writing for a teenage audience. Phil Spector was called the "Tycoon of Teen" and depended on that demographic to buy his records. It's a songwriting formula.

"Let Us Go On This Way" and "Roller Skating Child" are both sung from the perspective of a teenaged high school student, and sound just as odd coming from the mouths of men pushing 40.

[filledeplage]

That was a fantastic read and gives me quite a bit to think on. Well done, filledeplage.

Thanks for those kind words.   

[AndrewHickey]

Though, on a much more sober note, I do have a FtM transgendered friend who I've shared a lot of Beach Boys music with and I hope to god he never hears that song.

Oddly enough, I have a MtF transgendered friend who actually loves the song, so who knows?

I believe the terms FtM and MtF are considered offensive by many trans* people now, because they imply that at one point they 'were' one gender and 'are' now the other, and the non-offensive terms are AFAB and AMAB (Assigned Female/Male At Birth).

As for the song... well, one can argue that it was intended innocently, but the fact remains that it's one of a whole bunch of songs around the same themes from the band in the mid-70s (Schoolgirl, Lazy Lizzie and possibly others) and the impression given is creepy as hell, at least to me.

[Pretty Funky]

Though, on a much more sober note, I do have a FtM transgendered friend who I've shared a lot of Beach Boys music with and I hope to god he never hears that song.

Oddly enough, I have a MtF transgendered friend who actually loves the song, so who knows?

I believe the terms FtM and MtF are considered offensive by many trans* people now, because they imply that at one point they 'were' one gender and 'are' now the other, and the non-offensive terms are AFAB and AMAB (Assigned Female/Male At Birth).

FTLOG! What next?

(For the love of god)

[wantsomecorn]

Though, on a much more sober note, I do have a FtM transgendered friend who I've shared a lot of Beach Boys music with and I hope to god he never hears that song.

Oddly enough, I have a MtF transgendered friend who actually loves the song, so who knows?

I believe the terms FtM and MtF are considered offensive by many trans* people now, because they imply that at one point they 'were' one gender and 'are' now the other, and the non-offensive terms are AFAB and AMAB (Assigned Female/Male At Birth).

FTLOG! What next?

(For the love of god)

All of the transgender people I know use FtM/MtF, I've never even heard of the AF/MAB label. Nearly all of them are younger than their mid-20s, so maybe that has something to do with it?

[Dunderhead]

Brian was obsessed with youth to a disturbing degree, it's a theme that underlies his entire career. The lyrics of "When I Grow Up" are case in point. Or the pied piper talking about wanting to "know kids", which is something Brian seemed to say routinely in interviews, such as the one on Ready Steady Go where he says he wants to see as many kids as possible while in England.

I think he was just afraid of losing touch with his muse. It's a fear that a lot of artists have worn on their sleeves going back hundreds of years, the fear of being abandoned by genius, of not being able to accomplish still greater things due to the onset of middle age. The "tomboy" has appeared as a motif in literary works to that end, notably Goethe's Mignon, whose influence on writers of the 19th and 20th centuries was traced in a book on that subject called "Mignon's Afterlives" I believe if you're interested.

Brian wrote a song about a tomboy because the psychological type of the tomboy mattered to him in his understanding and interpretation of his own life. He called that type by the name he understood it to have, tomboy, but I think the figure behind that name goes much deeper than the cloistered world of contemporary gender politics, to the idea of the androgonyte in alchemy and various esoteric traditions.

[filledeplage]

Brian was obsessed with youth to a disturbing degree, it's a theme that underlies his entire career. The lyrics of "When I Grow Up" are case in point. Or the pied piper talking about wanting to "know kids", which is something Brian seemed to say routinely in interviews, such as the one on Ready Steady Go where he says he wants to see as many kids as possible while in England.

I think he was just afraid of losing touch with his muse. It's a fear that a lot of artists have worn on their sleeves going back hundreds of years, the fear of being abandoned by genius, of not being able to accomplish still greater things due to the onset of middle age. The "tomboy" has appeared as a motif in literary works to that end, notably Goethe's Mignon, whose influence on writers of the 19th and 20th centuries was traced in a book on that subject called "Mignon's Afterlives" I believe if you're interested.
Brian wrote a song about a tomboy because the psychological type of the tomboy mattered to him in his understanding and interpretation of his own life. He called that type by the name he understood it to have, tomboy, but I think the figure behind that name goes much deeper than the cloistered world of contemporary gender politics, to the idea of the androgonyte in alchemy and various esoteric traditions.

What you said is interesting. And I have not read Goethe, unfortunately.  But I just pulled the lyrics and find them more in the Pygmalion/My Fair Lady in the context of a more chivalrous approach.  No more skateboards...baseball mitt...and the need to "prove oneself"as it were.  Girls don't need to prove themselves as they have in the past.  The suffragettes of yesteryear, the girls who ran marathons in baseball caps to hide their gender, and women who entered politics, in a man's world. (off my soapbox!) 

It appears more the context of the "provider" - and not denying the obvious skill sets that a young lady would need to master; the skateboard (sidewalk surfing as it was often called) and baseball mitt, perhaps with the young lady as a pitcher, catcher or metaphorically playing the field (the outfield!)

If your market and formula is youth, no less than teachers, you need to stay in touch with what young people are interested in, how they view world events, etc., and I tend to look more straight forwardly at the lyrics say, rather than reading into a subtext of 40 layers, and affix a 2013 lens to a 1970's song.  Brian would be prudent to seek out the opinions and chatter of young people.

It is more than great that young people have discovered the timelessness of this music, whether it's a product of parental brainwashing (my instance) or in a music theory course, that has finally caught up to the 50 year quality product and cultural phenomenon it always has been, in the context of the Sleeping Giant.

The other factor is that Brian was writing after the end of the Vietnam war, and, in post war euphoria, and the rediscovery of America's Band, and was maybe looking to offer more light-hearted fare after the decade of serious, often depressing, and multi-purpose protest music.  My take is that this is being over-analyzed.   But I always thought of MIU predominantly, as a "goddess" ode album. JMHO

Only Brian knows what his vision was for the song. 

[schiaffino]

sorry for not replying back guys, all your comments are really interesting. cant really comment myself now - busy at work.

but so far I still dont understand why no one vetoed that awful song.

[clack]

'Hey Little Tomboy' would have been a fine addition to the 'Surfer Girl' or 'Little Deuce Coup' lps. It's not the song itself -- it's the context (BB now being in their mid- thirties, and 1978 being far from the more innocent days of, say, 'Be True to Your School').

I'm just talking here about the MIU version of the song -- the Adult Child version is completely indefensible  and outrageous ( so outrageous that it makes me laugh -- am I evil for doing so?)

[Sheriff John Stone]

'Hey Little Tomboy' would have been a fine addition to the 'Surfer Girl' or 'Little Deuce Coup' lps.

Or Love You. Could you imagine this trio:

Roller Skating Child -> Hey Little Tomboy -> I Wanna Pick You Up

Dear God...

[schiaffino]

'Hey Little Tomboy' would have been a fine addition to the 'Surfer Girl' or 'Little Deuce Coup' lps.

Or Love You. Could you imagine this trio:

Roller Skating Child -> Hey Little Tomboy -> I Wanna Pick You Up

Dear God...

Someone call 911 

[filledeplage]

'Hey Little Tomboy' would have been a fine addition to the 'Surfer Girl' or 'Little Deuce Coup' lps. It's not the song itself -- it's the context (BB now being in their mid- thirties, and 1978 being far from the more innocent days of, say, 'Be True to Your School').

I'm just talking here about the MIU version of the song -- the Adult Child version is completely indefensible  and outrageous ( so outrageous that it makes me laugh -- am I evil for doing so?)

Hey Little Tomboy is a retro song.  And maybe anachronistic for the late 1970's. 

Does a songwriter have to write in a politically correct formula?  That would chill creativity.  Brian is telling a story of courtship from a bygone era. 

The audience seems to love the bygone era songs.   

[schiaffino]

'Hey Little Tomboy' would have been a fine addition to the 'Surfer Girl' or 'Little Deuce Coup' lps. It's not the song itself -- it's the context (BB now being in their mid- thirties, and 1978 being far from the more innocent days of, say, 'Be True to Your School').

I'm just talking here about the MIU version of the song -- the Adult Child version is completely indefensible  and outrageous ( so outrageous that it makes me laugh -- am I evil for doing so?)

Hey Little Tomboy is a retro song.  And maybe anachronistic for the late 1970's. 

Does a songwriter have to write in a politically correct formula?  That would chill creativity.  Brian is telling a story of courtship from a bygone era. 

The audience seems to love the bygone era songs.   

Although I respect your opinion, I have to disagree. I don't think this is a retro courtship song, I sincerely believe its a lyrical manifestation of some strange sexual repression existing in Brian's child-like mindset at the time. Just read these words:

Hey, little tomboy, I've had my eyes on you
Thinkin' what a girl you could be
Mmm, I smell perfume, let's try some cut-off jeans
Look at all the changes I see

This is clearly about a desire for making someone change into a sexual fantasy that the writer is having.

I'm gonna teach you to kiss
You're gonna feel just like this
They're doin' it all over the world

I don't interpret this as 'romancing' a lady in any way. This is about a very young girl, who acts boyish-like and that our 35-yr-old writer sees as an object of desire. More in line with 'Lolita', but certainly with less lyrical sophistication.

In Brian's defense, he was out of it. He could have written/produced music about any nonsense (cooking bread, for ex) and he'd be understood. What baffles me  is how this was published and released to the general public. No lawyer raised the concern 'eh, guys, don't you think this might be interpreted the wrong way? you know, late 30s bearded fellows talking about turning a girl into a woman...no? no one?'.

Maybe I'm making too much of it. Maybe no one cared about this song when it was released (no one cared for the band much back then). But looking back into their legacy, for me this is a dark, utterly disturbing moment.

[halblaineisgood]

.

[filledeplage]

'Hey Little Tomboy' would have been a fine addition to the 'Surfer Girl' or 'Little Deuce Coup' lps. It's not the song itself -- it's the context (BB now being in their mid- thirties, and 1978 being far from the more innocent days of, say, 'Be True to Your School').

I'm just talking here about the MIU version of the song -- the Adult Child version is completely indefensible  and outrageous ( so outrageous that it makes me laugh -- am I evil for doing so?)

Hey Little Tomboy is a retro song.  And maybe anachronistic for the late 1970's. 

Does a songwriter have to write in a politically correct formula?  That would chill creativity.  Brian is telling a story of courtship from a bygone era. 

The audience seems to love the bygone era songs.   

Although I respect your opinion, I have to disagree. I don't think this is a retro courtship song, I sincerely believe its a lyrical manifestation of some strange sexual repression existing in Brian's child-like mindset at the time. Just read these words:

Hey, little tomboy, I've had my eyes on you
Thinkin' what a girl you could be
Mmm, I smell perfume, let's try some cut-off jeans
Look at all the changes I see

This is clearly about a desire for making someone change into a sexual fantasy that the writer is having.

I'm gonna teach you to kiss
You're gonna feel just like this
They're doin' it all over the world

I don't interpret this as 'romancing' a lady in any way. This is about a very young girl, who acts boyish-like and that our 35-yr-old writer sees as an object of desire. More in line with 'Lolita', but certainly with less lyrical sophistication.

In Brian's defense, he was out of it. He could have written/produced music about any nonsense (cooking bread, for ex) and he'd be understood. What baffles me  is how this was published and released to the general public. No lawyer raised the concern 'eh, guys, don't you think this might be interpreted the wrong way? you know, late 30s bearded fellows talking about turning a girl into a woman...no? no one?'.

Maybe I'm making too much of it. Maybe no one cared about this song when it was released (no one cared for the band much back then). But looking back into their legacy, for me this is a dark, utterly disturbing moment.

Reasonable minds can differ.  I agree with that.  But, first, my credentials are not in psychology or psychiatry.  I would not try to take "a trip through someone's cranium" as a fan, with absolutely limited info. 

Why would a lawyer have to raise a concern?  Brian's work is protected under copyright and intellectual property, and it does not "shock the conscience," I don't think.  If you are suggesting that it is pornographic, the US Supreme Court cannot define what it is, but, they have said in the past, that, "one knows it when one sees it."

Now, a step further.  It seemed in those post 1970's war years 15 Big Ones era, etc., that there was a retro look back in an attempt at nostalgia.  Hey Little Tomboy has always reminded me of a more orchestrated structure, similar to work from the early 60's.  It seems immaterial that they had beards, any more than an analogy to what the Rolling Stones were doing as compared to the Boys.  Attempts were made to censor lyrics during the early days of rock and roll. 

Writers can often close their eyes and mentally step back in time, to re-experience an event, in order to use it for some creative purpose. 

Imagine if you will, looking at someone 's picture of a relative, now old, when they were young, and saying, how "hot" they must have been back-in-the-day.  Or, looking at an awkward 12 year old who looks at the tomboy next door, looking forward (not backwards, as in the vintage photo) and projecting what a "doll" she will be when she is a few years older. 

This guy doesn't impress me with any untoward behavior, and may have something to look forward to, wait for, etc., and I guess I'm not reading predatory aspirations into that song. Having seen Brian in that video, it impresses me as very innocuous. 

[clack]

^
I agree that minus the leching and leering bits in the Adult Child version of the song, the singer-persona of the MIU version can be interpreted not as the 35-year old Brian Wilson perving after an underage girl, but rather as a teenage boy addressing a girl his own age. In fact, that's how I interpret the song.

Hey, Chuck Berry recorded 'Sweet Little 16' when he was 31. I assume folks in 1958 heard it as a teenage boy addressing a teenage girl...

[Please delete my account]

Hey, Chuck Berry recorded 'Sweet Little 16' when he was 31. I assume folks in 1958 heard it as a teenage boy addressing a teenage girl...

Re-read the "Sweet Little 16" lyrics. the age of the song's narrator is irrelevant.