Did Brian do all the early vocal arrangements?

[SufferingFools]

My understanding is that Dick arranged the orchestral tracks, but not the vocals. They sound like pure BDW to me, especially "We Three Kings".

There's an interview with Brian on one of the CD versions of the album (Ultimate Christmas, maybe?) which was recorded at that time (1964), where he said Reynolds also did the vocal arrangements for the traditional Christmas songs.  That corroborates what Brian told me in 2005 about Auld Lang Syne.


(Love your book, btw.)

[Rocker]

My understanding is that Dick arranged the orchestral tracks, but not the vocals. They sound like pure BDW to me, especially "We Three Kings".

I think I've heard that Dick also did the vocal arrangements. To be honest, they don't sound like "pure Brian" to me. They're too deep into the jazz vocal arrangements and sound very authentic in that way, something that Brian's arrangements for the most part don't because his own personal style of where to place those jazzy vocals is very much rooted in a Rock'n'Roll/Doo wop terrain. "Santa Claus is comin'..." for example is nothing that Brian would come up with imo. He probably could do it but I don't think he would've changed his own style that drastically when he had one of the greatest arrangers working for him on that project.
That said, you got a point with "We three...", which sounds like something Brian would come up with. But going by ear and knowing that I heard before that Reynolds did the vocals (didn't Brian say that on Ultimate Christmas?), my vote goes to him.


EDIT:
I see SufferingFools was faster than me.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I may well stand corrected. 

[Aegir]

Reynold's side  of the Christmas album is one of my least favorite Beach Boys sides. Sometimes I play people "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" just to make them angry. and most of the time, it works.

[I. Spaceman]

Reynold's side  of the Christmas album is one of my least favorite Beach Boys sides. Sometimes I play people "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" just to make them angry. and most of the time, it works.

We Three Kings and Blue Christmas are great, but on the whole, I agree with you. An 80's radio hearing of that version of Santa Claus actually put my appreciation of The Beach Boys off for a few years.

[SufferingFools]

Reynold's side  of the Christmas album is one of my least favorite Beach Boys sides. Sometimes I play people "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" just to make them angry. and most of the time, it works.

You're right, "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is the worst, but luckily it is stuck by itself at the end of side 1.  

Side 2 of the Christmas album is actually a side I enjoy a great deal, apart from the whole "Hi, this is Denny.... and if you hap- happen to be listening to it right now..."  

[I. Spaceman]

Reynold's side  of the Christmas album is one of my least favorite Beach Boys sides. Sometimes I play people "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" just to make them angry. and most of the time, it works.

You're right, "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is the worst, but luckily it is stuck by itself at the end of side 1.  

That's Frosty The Snowman you are thinking of. Also abominable.

[SufferingFools]

Reynold's side  of the Christmas album is one of my least favorite Beach Boys sides. Sometimes I play people "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" just to make them angry. and most of the time, it works.

You're right, "Santa Claus Is Coming to Town" is the worst, but luckily it is stuck by itself at the end of side 1.  

That's Frosty The Snowman you are thinking of. Also abominable.

Oh, you are right.    That's even worse.

Remember the cassette version, where they were all scrambled up?  That was annoying.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

One possibility to consider is that Reynolds and Wilson collaborated to some extent.  It doesn't have to be 100 per cent one or the other.  I'm not saying it wasn't only that it's possible.

[Rocker]

Couldn't disagree any more with you guys. "Santa Claus is comin'..." is one great example of the Beach Boys being able to also sing "adult music". If you listen to the harmonies they pull off and how strong their singing is, it's just astonishing. It's just not Beach Boys style so to speak and certainly not Rock so maybe that puts a few people off.

[Jukka]

I'm with Rocker here. Sure, the adult side isn't my favourite BB vinyl side, but the singing is great (no matter who arranged it) and the songs are stone cold classics. As holiday classics go, those are mighty decent renditions.

[I. Spaceman]

The singing on Santa Claus is fine. But the musical arrangement? I've heard better on those little 45s that used to come with kiddie Golden Books. I mean, Pop Goes The f***in' Weasel?

[SufferingFools]

I agree, great singing on Santa Claus but an embarrassing instrumental track.  The one I really have no use for is Frosty the Snowman, which explains why I can enjoy side 2 in reasonable comfort.   

[I. Spaceman]

I agree, great singing on Santa Claus but an embarrassing instrumental track.  The one I really have no use for is Frosty the Snowman, which explains why I can enjoy side 2 in reasonable comfort.   

There's some real sour notes on Frosty, too. Those guys weren't no Freshmen. Nor would I want them to be.

[hypehat]

But Blue Christmas, White Christmas and We Three Kings are good. We can at least all agree on that..... can't we?

As for the question, I've never been lead to believe Brian's 'formal' music education was more than most college age kids who just took a course in music at high school (did he minor in music at college? He didn't major in it iirc). Carl & Dave probably knew more music theory from their guitar lessons than Brian learnt at school.



And, if we take the Xmas album out of the equation..... if not Brian, who else?

[I. Spaceman]

But Blue Christmas, White Christmas and We Three Kings are good. We can at least all agree on that..... can't we?

Yeah, and I'll Be Home For Christmas is alright too.

[SufferingFools]

But Blue Christmas, White Christmas and We Three Kings are good. We can at least all agree on that..... can't we?

Yeah, and I'll Be Home For Christmas is alright too.

I like that one.  The harmonies aren't as interesting as We Three Kings or Auld Lang Syne, of course, but there's an enveloping warmth to the way they sing it.

[SufferingFools]

But Blue Christmas, White Christmas and We Three Kings are good. We can at least all agree on that..... can't we?

As for the question, I've never been lead to believe Brian's 'formal' music education was more than most college age kids who just took a course in music at high school (did he minor in music at college? He didn't major in it iirc). Carl & Dave probably knew more music theory from their guitar lessons than Brian learnt at school.


And, if we take the Xmas album out of the equation..... if not Brian, who else?

Brian didn't go to college, did he?  I thought he didn't even graduate from high school until Hawthorne awarded him an honorary diploma, circa 1989.


I wondered if, for example, Hite and/or Dorinda Morgan might have had input into the "Lavender" arrangement.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

as far as I can tell, Brian copied the Four Freshmen arrangement of Their Hearts Were Full of Spring almost exactly.

Mandatory follow-up question: where do they differ? 

On the Beach Boys version, the Beach Boys sing.  On the Four Freshmen version, the Four Freshman sing.

Wow! I learn something new every day!!

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Reynold's side  of the Christmas album is one of my least favorite Beach Boys sides. Sometimes I play people "Santa Claus is Coming to Town" just to make them angry. and most of the time, it works.

I was going to say that I love Christmas Day that Al sings. Then I looked again, and that was on the Brian side anyway! A bit more folk arrangement then Brian normally does. Perhaps an Al influence there?

[donald]

My understanding is that Dick arranged the orchestral tracks, but not the vocals. They sound like pure BDW to me, especially "We Three Kings".

ditto

[SufferingFools]

My understanding is that Dick arranged the orchestral tracks, but not the vocals. They sound like pure BDW to me, especially "We Three Kings".

ditto

I was kinda shocked and disappointed to find out it was Reynolds, but finally I decided Reynolds must have been a bit of a genius himself. 

[Jaco]

I don't know how much musical theoretical lessons Brian got from certain teachers, but by analysing and transcribing songs by the Four Freshmen, note for note, I believe that could have been 90% of his whole harmony arrangement education. By doing it he learned all the harmonic possibillities of notes and chords through and through. (as upposed to many musicians who just make music by the heart but have no understanding what is going on in the notes.)

Alan, about those Four Freshmen tunes: Brian got it all searched out for us, and he gave it to us, from behind the piano. We sucked it up like a spounge.

By doing that he teached himself. Murry said about his son: (something like this:) this guy is not thinking about 4 voices, but he is thinking 6 to 7 part harmony!

Carl's style of vocal arranging is different.
He took over more and more production or arranging tasks from Brian, after 1967. F.e., he sings most of the vocals on I Can Hear Music (almost a Carl solo track), but in a more loose, improvisational style.  (loose, improvisational style of backing vocals is anyway very normal in popmusic)
Brian's style is more solid, as if he checked every single note against the others, and he tries to tell a story with some musical meaning with those backing vocals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVlIFVJLP8I Heaven - Carl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9DXqZdas Heaven - Brian

The point not being mentioned here which I mentioned earlier is that, yes, Brian painstakingly listened and transcribed the Freshmen vocal arrangements, and yes, Brian taught those arrangements to his brothers and the other Beach Boys and they performed note-for-note transcriptions of those songs.

However, in order to then apply those same concepts to *his own* original music and use those techniques learned from Freshmen records, he would need at least a basic understanding of chord theory, intervals, and music theory in general in order to apply a Freshmen technique to another song with different chord changes, different key, different structure, etc. You can transcribe a Freshmen arrangement, but if it's 4-part voices over a Imaj7-vi-iim7-V7b9 turnaround in F, and your own song is a totally different key and progression, you need to know how to translate and adapt it to the new key and why certain notes would not work in the arrangement.

Not saying it's happening here in this thread or with anyone specific, but I got a vibe in similar discussions in the past that somehow the notion of Brian being self-taught is more appealing than finding out he had taken formal music theory classes and had actually learned how to do some of these things in a more structured way.

I agree with Josh, Brian absorbed and internalized just enough of the formal theory and education to take what he needed and put it to use on his own songs. There is a vast difference between transcribing notes from a recording, to being able to play/perform them, to being able to then *use and apply them* as a tool when creating your own music. Brian needed certain tools in his arsenal to do the latter, and he used them with great results.

I have a few more thoughts about above things...

I like the idea of teaching just by listening. (not saying it is the only way, but I like it this way)
1. you listen to a record
2. you learn from it
3. you make something similar yet try to be different or more original, you make a record yourself = you're back at point 1. 'a record'

point 1 and point 3 are just about emotional listening experiences, the music goes straight to the heart.
In the end, the emotion is what matters, all the theory, modulations, chords, beats or measures are quite forgettable.

John Lennon did the same with basslines or grooves he took from other records, mostly black U.S. artists, and made it his own, to something different.
Example video 'John Lennon's Jukebox': http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7532896021332831792

With Brian Wilson to me it's clear he came up with very interesting chord schemes, or so called 'feels'.
But after that, that's where the songwriting, arranging and production becomes really interesting.
Important is: How does he make a lead melody above those chords? What kind of backing vocals, counter melodies? There are hundreds of possibilities, all above the same chords! Of course you need to know some musical language principals about rhytm and melody, make good voicings etc, but once you know that 'language' you can apply it to all your music.

[hypehat]

But Blue Christmas, White Christmas and We Three Kings are good. We can at least all agree on that..... can't we?

As for the question, I've never been lead to believe Brian's 'formal' music education was more than most college age kids who just took a course in music at high school (did he minor in music at college? He didn't major in it iirc). Carl & Dave probably knew more music theory from their guitar lessons than Brian learnt at school.


And, if we take the Xmas album out of the equation..... if not Brian, who else?

Brian didn't go to college, did he?  I thought he didn't even graduate from high school until Hawthorne awarded him an honorary diploma, circa 1989.


I wondered if, for example, Hite and/or Dorinda Morgan might have had input into the "Lavender" arrangement.

Brian started at El Camino college in 1960, majoring in psychology, according to Wiki. So he must have graduated high school, but not college.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Again, why are we assuming that it's all or nothing?

Couldn't Reynolds have guided the arrangements in question with some form of active input from Brian?