Did Brian do all the early vocal arrangements?

[SufferingFools]

By "early" I mean before Dick Reynolds did the arrangements for side 2 of the Christmas Album. 

In particular, I'm thinking of "The Lord's Prayer" and the "Lavender" demo.  Is that all Brian's vocal arranging?  It's certainly as good as Reynolds.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

By "early" I mean before Dick Reynolds did the arrangements for side 2 of the Christmas Album. 

In particular, I'm thinking of "The Lord's Prayer" and the "Lavender" demo.  Is that all Brian's vocal arranging?  It's certainly as good as Reynolds.

Yes.

[Autotune]

The Lord's Prayer... I don't know, but you can infer Brian did it from the recent Google group interview. The part-writing, which I once transcribed, seems not schooled nor in the style of professional band arrangers like Reynolds.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

The Lord's Prayer... I don't know, but you can infer Brian did it from the recent Google group interview. The part-writing, which I once transcribed, seems not schooled nor in the style of professional band arrangers like Reynolds.

Considering the guy spent every waking hour analyzing Four Freshman records for a least one straight year of his life, I would say Brian was well schooled in the style of vocal arranging that he wanted to do.

[Catbirdman]

Huh. So did Dick Reynolds do the vocal arrangements for the orchestrated Christmas songs then? I knew he did the instrumental atrrangements, but I actually thought Brian did the vocal arrangements, or at least helped.

[Ian]

Brian let Reynolds do the arrangements on the traditional material but he did all the arranging for the "modern" side of the record. 

[runnersdialzero]

The Lord's Prayer... I don't know, but you can infer Brian did it from the recent Google group interview. The part-writing, which I once transcribed, seems not schooled nor in the style of professional band arrangers like Reynolds.

Considering the guy spent every waking hour analyzing Four Freshman records for a least one straight year of his life, I would say Brian was well schooled in the style of vocal arranging that he wanted to do.

Nah. Someone needs to go back in time and tell 1961 Brian that he can either take years and years of theory courses if he hopes to become a good songwriiter or he can STFU and GTFO.

[cablegeddon]

I never heard a demo of Lord's prayer? How is it different from the arrangements on TSS

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

I never heard a demo of Lord's prayer? How is it different from the arrangements on TSS

You're confusing "The Lord's Prayer" with "Our Prayer."

[c-man]

In his 1982 interview with Geoffrey Himes (for Musician magazine), Carl said that Mike had a hand in the vocal arrangements early on, specifically in how the bass vocal parts would go.

[guitarfool2002]

As much as it's assumed Brian learned all of the theory and harmony on his own, he did in fact take theory classes and he did in fact study under guys like Reynolds in order to further learn the trade. As far as it's a romantic notion of someone self-taught being able to write and arrange complex music without having a formal "training", when it comes to actually translating those ideas to music which can be performed, in many cases those self-taught people either need a "scribe" to formalize the notations into sheet music, or a working knowledge of how music works in order to make the actual music something able to be performed.

Of course the software and digital programs make it easy for someone lazy to type up a score, but in Brian's heyday in the 60's someone had to be available to transcribe the ideas onto paper if you couldn't do it. And an above- basic knowledge of harmony and inner voicings would be required to process what was going on in a Four Freshmen record beyond being able to pick out the notes.

A foodie could probably identify the ingredients in a certain prepared meal, but unless they have some knowledge of how to cook and work with those ingredients, if they try to replicate it in their own kitchen, the results will most likely show that lack of training. Same with music.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

As much as it's assumed Brian learned all of the theory and harmony on his own, he did in fact take theory classes and he did in fact study under guys like Reynolds in order to further learn the trade. As far as it's a romantic notion of someone self-taught being able to write and arrange complex music without having a formal "training", when it comes to actually translating those ideas to music which can be performed, in many cases those self-taught people either need a "scribe" to formalize the notations into sheet music, or a working knowledge of how music works in order to make the actual music something able to be performed.

Of course the software and digital programs make it easy for someone lazy to type up a score, but in Brian's heyday in the 60's someone had to be available to transcribe the ideas onto paper if you couldn't do it. And an above- basic knowledge of harmony and inner voicings would be required to process what was going on in a Four Freshmen record beyond being able to pick out the notes.

A foodie could probably identify the ingredients in a certain prepared meal, but unless they have some knowledge of how to cook and work with those ingredients, if they try to replicate it in their own kitchen, the results will most likely show that lack of training. Same with music.

It seems to me that Brian learned just enough, formally, to be able to do what he needed to do.  Certainly his notation skills were questionable, as per the session people that talk about having to rewrite stuff.  But it would be interesting to know the full extent of the synthesis between whatever formal training he had with his self-study.  That would be something very interesting to ask Brian, beyond the usual softballs.

[Aegir]

I never heard a demo of Lord's prayer? How is it different from the arrangements on TSS

You're confusing "The Lord's Prayer" with "Our Prayer."

additionally, in the phrase "The Lord's Prayer" and the "Lavender" demo, demo is only in reference to Lavender.

[Jaco]

I don't know how much musical theoretical lessons Brian got from certain teachers, but by analysing and transcribing songs by the Four Freshmen, note for note, I believe that could have been 90% of his whole harmony arrangement education. By doing it he learned all the harmonic possibillities of notes and chords through and through. (as upposed to many musicians who just make music by the heart but have no understanding what is going on in the notes.)

Alan, about those Four Freshmen tunes: Brian got it all searched out for us, and he gave it to us, from behind the piano. We sucked it up like a spounge.

By doing that he teached himself. Murry said about his son: (something like this:) this guy is not thinking about 4 voices, but he is thinking 6 to 7 part harmony!

Carl's style of vocal arranging is different.
He took over more and more production or arranging tasks from Brian, after 1967. F.e., he sings most of the vocals on I Can Hear Music (almost a Carl solo track), but in a more loose, improvisational style.  (loose, improvisational style of backing vocals is anyway very normal in popmusic)
Brian's style is more solid, as if he checked every single note against the others, and he tries to tell a story with some musical meaning with those backing vocals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVlIFVJLP8I Heaven - Carl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9DXqZdas Heaven - Brian

[Fall Breaks]

What about the different versions of "Their Hearts Were Full Of Spring" then? Are they note-for-note copies of the original, or did Brian add/subtract anything?

[Aegir]

as far as I can tell, Brian copied the Four Freshmen arrangement of Their Hearts Were Full of Spring almost exactly.

[Fall Breaks]

as far as I can tell, Brian copied the Four Freshmen arrangement of Their Hearts Were Full of Spring almost exactly.

Mandatory follow-up question: where do they differ? 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

as far as I can tell, Brian copied the Four Freshmen arrangement of Their Hearts Were Full of Spring almost exactly.

Mandatory follow-up question: where do they differ? 

On the Beach Boys version, the Beach Boys sing.  On the Four Freshmen version, the Four Freshman sing.

[guitarfool2002]

I don't know how much musical theoretical lessons Brian got from certain teachers, but by analysing and transcribing songs by the Four Freshmen, note for note, I believe that could have been 90% of his whole harmony arrangement education. By doing it he learned all the harmonic possibillities of notes and chords through and through. (as upposed to many musicians who just make music by the heart but have no understanding what is going on in the notes.)

Alan, about those Four Freshmen tunes: Brian got it all searched out for us, and he gave it to us, from behind the piano. We sucked it up like a spounge.

By doing that he teached himself. Murry said about his son: (something like this:) this guy is not thinking about 4 voices, but he is thinking 6 to 7 part harmony!

Carl's style of vocal arranging is different.
He took over more and more production or arranging tasks from Brian, after 1967. F.e., he sings most of the vocals on I Can Hear Music (almost a Carl solo track), but in a more loose, improvisational style.  (loose, improvisational style of backing vocals is anyway very normal in popmusic)
Brian's style is more solid, as if he checked every single note against the others, and he tries to tell a story with some musical meaning with those backing vocals.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVlIFVJLP8I Heaven - Carl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFs9DXqZdas Heaven - Brian

The point not being mentioned here which I mentioned earlier is that, yes, Brian painstakingly listened and transcribed the Freshmen vocal arrangements, and yes, Brian taught those arrangements to his brothers and the other Beach Boys and they performed note-for-note transcriptions of those songs.

However, in order to then apply those same concepts to *his own* original music and use those techniques learned from Freshmen records, he would need at least a basic understanding of chord theory, intervals, and music theory in general in order to apply a Freshmen technique to another song with different chord changes, different key, different structure, etc. You can transcribe a Freshmen arrangement, but if it's 4-part voices over a Imaj7-vi-iim7-V7b9 turnaround in F, and your own song is a totally different key and progression, you need to know how to translate and adapt it to the new key and why certain notes would not work in the arrangement.

Not saying it's happening here in this thread or with anyone specific, but I got a vibe in similar discussions in the past that somehow the notion of Brian being self-taught is more appealing than finding out he had taken formal music theory classes and had actually learned how to do some of these things in a more structured way.

I agree with Josh, Brian absorbed and internalized just enough of the formal theory and education to take what he needed and put it to use on his own songs. There is a vast difference between transcribing notes from a recording, to being able to play/perform them, to being able to then *use and apply them* as a tool when creating your own music. Brian needed certain tools in his arsenal to do the latter, and he used them with great results.

[Autotune]

The Lord's Prayer... I don't know, but you can infer Brian did it from the recent Google group interview. The part-writing, which I once transcribed, seems not schooled nor in the style of professional band arrangers like Reynolds.

Considering the guy spent every waking hour analyzing Four Freshman records for a least one straight year of his life, I would say Brian was well schooled in the style of vocal arranging that he wanted to do.

I did not mean to dismiss The Lord's Prayer's magnificent vocal arrangement, nor its exuberant performance by the BBs. I just meant that it did not sound like something Reynolds, or someone with formal conservatoire training would write. Heck, it does not even sound like the Four Freshmen in terms of voicing if you compare with, say, TTWFOS, an a capella standard by said group.

[lance]

What about AuldLangSyne.  Is that Reynolds, or is it totally copped from The Four Freshmen? Because that vocal arrangement blows me away, it sounds like the song is melting or something.

[Autotune]

What about AuldLangSyne.  Is that Reynolds, or is it totally copped from The Four Freshmen? Because that vocal arrangement blows me away, it sounds like the song is melting or something.

It's Brian's.

[SufferingFools]

What about AuldLangSyne.  Is that Reynolds, or is it totally copped from The Four Freshmen? Because that vocal arrangement blows me away, it sounds like the song is melting or something.

That is actually Reynolds.  I was told that personally by Brian. 

[Rocker]

To make that clear: AFAIK the traditional side of the Christmas album was arranged by Dick Reynolds, that includes not only the music but also the vocals. Brian produced it.
The "new"-side was produced & arranged by Brian in the classic Brian-tradition.
That said, the christmas album's traditional side is imo the very best example - in an complete album way - in their early carreer in showing what a great vocal group the Beach Boys were. They do absolute fantastic jobs in performing these very complex arrangements. Mike's bass singing is outtasight. I wish they would've done such an album with non-christmas music. It's incredible

[Andrew G. Doe]

My understanding is that Dick arranged the orchestral tracks, but not the vocals. They sound like pure BDW to me, especially "We Three Kings".