This man wants to know how Al gets away with plagiarism

[SIP.FLAC]

I thought it was pretty well known that Welfare Song was a rewrite? I am surprised that Burgess wasn't credited.

[JanBerryFarm]

I guess Irving Burgess is not as cut-throat as Chuck Berry (Surfin' U.S.A.) or Ronald Mack (My Sweet Lord)

 Chuck certainly isn't the nicest guy in rock & roll, but it should be noted that the publishers initiated the lawsuit over "Surfin' USA"/"Sweet Little Sixteen." Chuck was incarcerated when "Surfin' USA" came out in March 1963.

Fair enough, MD, but couldn't it be said that 'the publishers' were just acting as Chucks agents?
Also, in a related, but entirely irrelevant point; can't incarcerated people bring law-suits and stuff from their prison cells? I thought they could.

[NHC]

As Geo. Harrison reportedly stated during the He's So Fine/My Sweet Lord event, "there are only 12 notes.  Which ones wasn't I supposed to use?"

Rock, blues, and folk are filled to overflowing with similar, often identical  - and basic simple - patterns.  That's just the way it is.  I suspect the I IV V blues chord progression, with or without a turnaround II, is not copyrightable, nor any of the other "3-chord and a minor or two" structures.  You know, C - Am - F - G7.   G - C - G - D - etc.  But when you have something like Sweet LIttle 16 vs. Surfin' USA, something just a tad different with the same unique nuanced rhythm, tempo, can't quite find the words, here, then i guess it's a problem.

Years ago i read a question from someone wondering how Brian Wilson could get label credit for "Sloop John B" when he didn't right it.  The answer was in the actual wording of the credit: "traditional, arranged by Brian Wilson". Or perhaps "adapted". I suspect that is a common tool for stuff in the public domain but with a history.

Anyway, regarding Beaks of Eagles, the core of that is a Robinson Jeffers poem.

[guitarfool2002]

Fair enough, MD, but couldn't it be said that 'the publishers' were just acting as Chucks agents?

Did you read my two previous posts addressing this? I didn't want to spell it out but I will, as all parties are either dead or irrelevant in 2012: Morris Levy was involved. If that alone doesn't answer it, these two points will. His name appears as co-writer on more than one popular song from Chuck's era, yet he was not a songwriter. It was a question which could not be asked by those who legitimately wrote the songs. Two, Morris Levy was known for bringing lawsuits to collect credits and copyright ownership over "his" songs, the famous lawsuits coming from Chuck Berry's catalog, again even though he wasn't a songwriter but instead acted as a lawyer-publisher-record label boss with Roulette Records.

Roulette Records...the label where an urban legend found a younger Joe Smith sometime in the 60's addressing a yearly meeting of Roulette's people by telling a joke how it was good to see all the five families being represented in the room, without a hint of irony and to a lot of laughter.

And Levy's legend actually reappeared as a fictional character in a season of The Sopranos as a former label boss.

So I'd say the chances of Levy in 1963 doing anything for Chuck Berry's interests instead of his own would be slim to not a chance in hell. 

[orange22]

Years ago i read a question from someone wondering how Brian Wilson could get label credit for "Sloop John B" when he didn't right it.  The answer was in the actual wording of the credit: "traditional, arranged by Brian Wilson". Or perhaps "adapted". I suspect that is a common tool for stuff in the public domain but with a history.

In the case of "traditional, arranged by 'X,'" does the arranger get 100% of the songwriting royalties?

[Jason Penick]

[

Did you read my two previous posts addressing this? I didn't want to spell it out but I will, as all parties are either dead or irrelevant in 2012: Morris Levy was involved. If that alone doesn't answer it, these two points will. His name appears as co-writer on more than one popular song from Chuck's era, yet he was not a songwriter. It was a question which could not be asked by those who legitimately wrote the songs. Two, Morris Levy was known for bringing lawsuits to collect credits and copyright ownership over "his" songs, the famous lawsuits coming from Chuck Berry's catalog, again even though he wasn't a songwriter but instead acted as a lawyer-publisher-record label boss with Roulette Records.

Roulette Records...the label where an urban legend found a younger Joe Smith sometime in the 60's addressing a yearly meeting of Roulette's people by telling a joke how it was good to see all the five families being represented in the room, without a hint of irony and to a lot of laughter.

And Levy's legend actually reappeared as a fictional character in a season of The Sopranos as a former label boss.

So I'd say the chances of Levy in 1963 doing anything for Chuck Berry's interests instead of his own would be slim to not a chance in hell. 

Levy also had poor Jimmie Rodgers assaulted by an off duty L.A. cop and beaten within an inch of his life. As you say, Morris Levy would have looked out for nobody's interests other than his own and that of the Genovese crime family.

[Aegir]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

That's simply not true.  I shouldn't need to list songs (which weren't rip-offs or covers) Al has (co)written over the BBs career to a die-hard BBs fan? 

I'm as big a fan as they come, and as far as I can tell the list of released songs for which Al had the original musical idea, and which weren't hugely derivative of someone else's earlier work, is as follows:
Suzie Cincinnati
All This Is That
Don't Go Near The Water
Beaks Of Eagles
*Possibly* Take A Load Off Your Feet (or was the original idea Brian's?)

Susie Cincinnati I'll give you. All This is That is a cowrite with Mike and Carl... I bet Carl came up with the chord progression. Don't Go Near the Water I'll give you. Beaks of Eagles... well, the lyrics are from a poem. Take a Load Off Your Feet as discussed was written musically by Brian.

so that's 2 songs.

[AndrewHickey]

Susie Cincinnati I'll give you. All This is That is a cowrite with Mike and Carl... I bet Carl came up with the chord progression. Don't Go Near the Water I'll give you. Beaks of Eagles... well, the lyrics are from a poem. Take a Load Off Your Feet as discussed was written musically by Brian.

so that's 2 songs.

All This Is That was, according to AGD's book, a Jardine track to which Mike wrote new lyrics. Carl's contribution was the vocal arrangement. And all the musical ideas in Beaks Of Eagles are Al's, which is what we'd been talking about (many/most of his songs have wholly original lyrics).

[Lowbacca]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

That's simply not true.  I shouldn't need to list songs (which weren't rip-offs or covers) Al has (co)written over the BBs career to a die-hard BBs fan? 

I'm as big a fan as they come, and as far as I can tell the list of released songs for which Al had the original musical idea, and which weren't hugely derivative of someone else's earlier work, is as follows:
Suzie Cincinnati
All This Is That
Don't Go Near The Water
Beaks Of Eagles
*Possibly* Take A Load Off Your Feet (or was the original idea Brian's?)

Susie Cincinnati I'll give you. All This is That is a cowrite with Mike and Carl... I bet Carl came up with the chord progression. Don't Go Near the Water I'll give you. Beaks of Eagles... well, the lyrics are from a poem. Take a Load Off Your Feet as discussed was written musically by Brian.

so that's 2 songs.

So that's at least two original bones in his body.

[tpesky]

Carl and Al were both decent song writers...it was not their strong suit but they do have some contributions but Carl's music suffers from the same problem.  Long Promised Road and Feel Flows both have similar feels to them. His solo albums often feel like it's the same few songs over and over with different lyrics and slightly different changes.

[Andrew G. Doe]

To these ears, the best ACJ original composition is the fragments buried in the middle section of the "Saga".  Seriously love to hear those without the narration, or edited up into a full(ish) song.

I would also seriously love to have been present when he played the demo of "Postcard" for Glen. 

[Micha]

Al was quite open about this song being an interpretation of the Kingston Trio song in an interview in Goldmine.

But yeah....this is part of a long folk tradition.

Yeah, I remember too reading long ago about LAT being a rewrite of some other folk song with Al being quite open about it. I didn't know which one though.

[Zach95]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

That's simply not true.  I shouldn't need to list songs (which weren't rip-offs or covers) Al has (co)written over the BBs career to a die-hard BBs fan? 

I'm as big a fan as they come, and as far as I can tell the list of released songs for which Al had the original musical idea, and which weren't hugely derivative of someone else's earlier work, is as follows:
Suzie Cincinnati
All This Is That
Don't Go Near The Water
Beaks Of Eagles
*Possibly* Take A Load Off Your Feet (or was the original idea Brian's?)

Susie Cincinnati I'll give you. All This is That is a cowrite with Mike and Carl... I bet Carl came up with the chord progression. Don't Go Near the Water I'll give you. Beaks of Eagles... well, the lyrics are from a poem. Take a Load Off Your Feet as discussed was written musically by Brian.

so that's 2 songs.

Don't Go Near the Water is a very strong song, and I love that Al wrote it.  That and All This is That are two exceptional songs, and, combined with other magnificent bits Al has penned, I'd go as far to say that Al is a competent songwriter, with small strokes of very capable songwriting skills.

[STE]

No love for Santa Ana Wind??


Beakes of Eagles uses the same chords of H&V's Boys & Girls section

[hypehat]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

That's simply not true.  I shouldn't need to list songs (which weren't rip-offs or covers) Al has (co)written over the BBs career to a die-hard BBs fan? 

I'm as big a fan as they come, and as far as I can tell the list of released songs for which Al had the original musical idea, and which weren't hugely derivative of someone else's earlier work, is as follows:
Suzie Cincinnati
All This Is That
Don't Go Near The Water
Beaks Of Eagles
*Possibly* Take A Load Off Your Feet (or was the original idea Brian's?)

Susie Cincinnati I'll give you. All This is That is a cowrite with Mike and Carl... I bet Carl came up with the chord progression. Don't Go Near the Water I'll give you. Beaks of Eagles... well, the lyrics are from a poem. Take a Load Off Your Feet as discussed was written musically by Brian.

so that's 2 songs.

Don't Go Near the Water is a very strong song, and I love that Al wrote it.  That and All This is That are two exceptional songs, and, combined with other magnificent bits Al has penned, I'd go as far to say that Al is a competent songwriter, with small strokes of very capable songwriting skills.

Al also didn't credit Daryl Dragon for writing the fade to that tune.

[NHC]

RE: Morris Levy - wasn't he  in charge of Tommy James'  contract?  According to his autobiography, and this is from foggy memory from a few years back, James didn't realize he had signed up with the mob and evidently got about a nickel for every dollar he probably should have received. Plus, of course, he was allowed to keep breathing.

Keith Richards wrote in his bio about Johnny Johnson, Berry's piano player (I make every effort to avoid the term "keyboard" and its various forms) probably deserving songwriter credits on a lot of tunes based on the keys many of the songs were written in - Eb and B - - piano keys (they fit the hands). But of course with the standard rock/blues progressions showing up song after song, what "writing" was actually involved?

[runnersdialzero]

Beakes of Eagles uses the same chords of H&V's Boys & Girls section

[SurfRiderHawaii]

I would also seriously love to have been present when he played the demo of "Postcard" for Glen. 

Not to make light of Glen's serious illness but it might explain why Glen sung on it without protest or note.  "Wow Al, that sounds like it could be a hit tune".

But Glen didn't write "R C" did he?

[Slow In Brain]

Susie Cincinatti sounds Beatle-ish.That said I thik Brian helped with the vocal arrangement on that one