This man wants to know how Al gets away with plagiarism

[JanBerryFarm]

His name is Irving Burgess and he wrote a song called 'The Wanderer' (not the Dion song) which was sung by the Kingston Trio.

One listen to 'The Wanderer' will tell you that by all rights Al Jardine is pulling a fast one (or maybe a slow one, since it's been 40 years).

Everyone knows that Al had a 'thing' for The Kingston Trio and 'folk' music. I've wondered  for years how he gets away with this.

I guess Irving Burgess is not as cut-throat as Chuck Berry (Surfin' U.S.A.) or Ronald Mack (My Sweet Lord)

[ontor pertawst]

Wait, you mean folkies re-purpose each other's chord structures and lyrics? This HAPPENS!? EGADS!



(kicks Harry Smith Anthology under the bed and whistles innocently)

[SMiLE Brian]

Bob Dylan does the same thing, folkies have a tradition of reusing melodies and other elements of song craft.

[ontor pertawst]

Hey, speaking of Jardine and Harry Smith n' folkie fun --

Al has to cover THIS!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA9D1qcxq9M

"Here's a little something I would like to relate..."

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Al was quite open about this song being an interpretation of the Kingston Trio song in an interview in Goldmine.

But yeah....this is part of a long folk tradition.

[guitarfool2002]

These clarifications and splitting hairs can be funny to see: I think it's a case of plagarism and/or outright theft of ideas being allowed if you're a folk musician, or somehow following in the "folk tradition" veering into jazz territory, however far that goes. But if someone outside that realm borrows or steals an idea, it's the end of the world.

How many cases can we list? Dozens? How about a few...

Dave Van Ronk, Dylan..."House Of The Rising Sun"...The Animals making a lot of money on their record...Van Ronk claiming it was his arrangement of the song that caught the others' attention, yet he got nothing. It's the folk tradition!

How about Be-Bop in the 40's and 50's rewriting and recasting Gershwin's "I Got Rhythm" chord sequence into any number of bop classics like Oleo, several by Parker, Dizzy, etc. You're taking (lifting) an entire chord progression and song structure, playing what amounts to a scattershot melody on top, then soloing over the choruses...then giving the tune a new title and getting writer credit.

Not just "I Got Rhythm" but others, too, yet if a character like Noel Gallagher comes along and nicks a few things from an old Coca-Cola commercial jingle, he's a bum. Same with Billie Joe from Green Day, he re-writes old Kinks tunes and others and look where he is. (The 'new' Green Day advance single sounds like Walk Away by The James Gang but I'll leave it at that)

Jimmy Page and the ol' chestnut of a credit that reads "Trad. arr. by" when a named credit would be too obvious.

And I'd consider the source of the Chuck Berry and "He's So Fine" lawsuits...publishing and other assorted characters...and with the Berry tune it was Morris Levy looking to cash in on other people's music as he had done for years.

All Al needs to say is "I'm following in the grand honored tradition of folk artists sharing their bountiful harvest of beautiful notes with the world" or some other nonsense and he'll never have the finger of plagarism pointed at him...

[AndrewHickey]

Not just "I Got Rhythm" but others, too, yet if a character like Noel Gallagher comes along and nicks a few things from an old Coca-Cola commercial jingle, he's a bum.

I think it's a case of "good artists borrow, great artists steal".

I don't think there's a single songwriter alive who hasn't taken an idea from someone else and reworked it. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that -- all creative work is built on the work of others in one way or another. The problem comes when someone does something too close to someone else's work, makes a great deal of money out of it and then doesn't share.

[Aegir]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

[onkster]

I certainly felt this with "PT Cruiser"...

[Autotune]

PT is different. That's a derivative song. This is a re-write. "The Wanderer" was probably public domain by the time Alan picked that up. Plus Al is more an interpreter than he is an author. It's always been like this.

[Lowbacca]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

That's simply not true.  I shouldn't need to list songs (which weren't rip-offs or covers) Al has (co)written over the BBs career to a die-hard BBs fan? 

[AndrewHickey]

PT is different. That's a derivative song. This is a re-write. "The Wanderer" was probably public domain by the time Alan picked that up. Plus Al is more an interpreter than he is an author. It's always been like this.

Nope, not public domain, still listed with ASCAP.
However, Burgess himself is also the credited 'writer' of songs like Jamaica Farewell and Day-O (Banana Boat Song) which are apparently older Jamaican or Trinidadian songs that he modified without crediting their original authors. And The Wanderer is a rewrite of the old folk song 900 Miles --  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VhmT6vOZRc . 900 Miles is *also* the basis of the Peter, Paul & Mary song 500 Miles, and is itself based on the old bluegrass song Reuben's Train -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3tqfRoZ2Tk

It really *is* the folk process in this case. It's not some evil case like The Lion Sleeps Tonight where a bunch of people outright stole Solomon Linda's original Mbube and put their names on it without crediting him because he was poor, black and African and they were rich, white and American so they could get away with it, it's people adapting and interpreting a piece of music that belongs to the folk tradition and whose original author is unknown.

[JanBerryFarm]

Al was quite open about this song being an interpretation of the Kingston Trio song in an interview in Goldmine.

But yeah....this is part of a long folk tradition.

Ok...that's good enough for me.

Btw, did you know that Happy Birthday was copyrighted. Not sure if it still is. 

[AndrewHickey]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

That's simply not true.  I shouldn't need to list songs (which weren't rip-offs or covers) Al has (co)written over the BBs career to a die-hard BBs fan? 

I'm as big a fan as they come, and as far as I can tell the list of released songs for which Al had the original musical idea, and which weren't hugely derivative of someone else's earlier work, is as follows:
Suzie Cincinnati
All This Is That
Don't Go Near The Water
Beaks Of Eagles
*Possibly* Take A Load Off Your Feet (or was the original idea Brian's?)

...and I think that's it.

Everything else ranges from fairly derivative of other people's work, but rewritten enough to still be a separate, good piece of work (e.g. California, Lady Lynda), to almost laughably obvious plagiarism (e.g. P.T. Cruiser, A Postcard From California).

But that's OK, really -- Al's never been about originality, he's into folk and country music, and that's what he does. There's an honesty to his stuff that's appealing, even though it's derivative, and he sings it with such conviction. A Postcard From California's a lovely little album, and I don't really care that I can tell exactly what records he'd been listening to before he wrote the songs

[AndrewHickey]

Btw, did you know that Happy Birthday was copyrighted. Not sure if it still is. 

Depends who you ask. A lot of people who've looked at the history say the copyright isn't valid. Warner Music, who claim to own the copyright, claim it is. Warner Music can afford better lawyers than you or me, so they'd probably win

[Lowbacca]

Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover.

That's simply not true.  I shouldn't need to list songs (which weren't rip-offs or covers) Al has (co)written over the BBs career to a die-hard BBs fan? 

I'm as big a fan as they come, and as far as I can tell the list of released songs for which Al had the original musical idea, and which weren't hugely derivative of someone else's earlier work, is as follows:
Suzie Cincinnati
All This Is That
Don't Go Near The Water
Beaks Of Eagles
*Possibly* Take A Load Off Your Feet (or was the original idea Brian's?)

...and I think that's it.

Everything else ranges from fairly derivative of other people's work, but rewritten enough to still be a separate, good piece of work (e.g. California, Lady Lynda), to almost laughably obvious plagiarism (e.g. P.T. Cruiser, A Postcard From California).

But that's OK, really -- Al's never been about originality, he's into folk and country music, and that's what he does. There's an honesty to his stuff that's appealing, even though it's derivative, and he sings it with such conviction. A Postcard From California's a lovely little album, and I don't really care that I can tell exactly what records he'd been listening to before he wrote the songs

Yes, I think your list pretty much sums it up. Plus odds and ends as other parts of the "California Saga", or stuff like the Postcard title track and so forth.

Be it as it may, the statement "Al doesn't have a bone of originality in his body. Everything he does is either a ripoff or a cover." is offensive and most importantly, not true. That's what I was getting at.

[runnersdialzero]

*Possibly* Take A Load Off Your Feet (or was the original idea Brian's?)

Supposedly, no. The extent of his contributions are the lyrics he sings. Did he contribute to the melody or anything else, though? Anyone know for sure.

But yeah Aegir - can't say I agree. He certainly has his share of songs that take something from other songs, but doesn't have a bone of originality in his body?

Even "California Saga: California" is mostly an original work, although yes, the main verse bassline is the same as "California Girls" (although it's modified quite a bit and is far from an exact copy).

I haven't listened to "PT Cruiser" more than once, so I can't recall what song it takes from.

[AndrewHickey]

I haven't listened to "PT Cruiser" more than once, so I can't recall what song it takes from.

All of them
Been years since I listened to it, but the bits I can remember of the song are lifted from Shut Down and Hey Little Cobra, and I'm pretty sure there were snatches of two or three other car songs in there too (I think Little GTO was one).

[Paulos]

I haven't listened to "PT Cruiser" more than once, so I can't recall what song it takes from.

All of them
Been years since I listened to it, but the bits I can remember of the song are lifted from Shut Down and Hey Little Cobra, and I'm pretty sure there were snatches of two or three other car songs in there too (I think Little GTO was one).

You're right Andrew, the 'wah-wah-wah' vocal parts from Little GTO are 're-imagined' by Al in PT Cruiser.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

Not just "I Got Rhythm" but others, too, yet if a character like Noel Gallagher comes along and nicks a few things from an old Coca-Cola commercial jingle, he's a bum.

Amen.

[Tilt Araiza]

Btw, did you know that Happy Birthday was copyrighted. Not sure if it still is. 

Depends who you ask. A lot of people who've looked at the history say the copyright isn't valid. Warner Music, who claim to own the copyright, claim it is. Warner Music can afford better lawyers than you or me, so they'd probably win

As I (possibly incorrectly) understand it, Happy Birthday To You is copyrighted on account of when its lyrics were written, the song where the tune originally appeared Good Morning To All is public domain.  On the commentary track for an episode of Futurama, they mention that they didn't have Happy Birthday used in a birthday scene because they didn't want to pay the royalties.  I can't remember if it was in that particular commentary, but I've heard somewhere that this would even extend to using an instrumental version in a birthday context, because it would still count as a version of Happy Birthday To You and the person with the lyric rights gets some royalties anyway (viz. Gene Rodenberry's Star Trek theme lyrics being a bit of sharp practice to get him money from something that was almost always going to be used instrumentally).

[AndrewHickey]

Btw, did you know that Happy Birthday was copyrighted. Not sure if it still is. 

Depends who you ask. A lot of people who've looked at the history say the copyright isn't valid. Warner Music, who claim to own the copyright, claim it is. Warner Music can afford better lawyers than you or me, so they'd probably win

As I (possibly incorrectly) understand it, Happy Birthday To You is copyrighted on account of when its lyrics were written, the song where the tune originally appeared Good Morning To All is public domain.  On the commentary track for an episode of Futurama, they mention that they didn't have Happy Birthday used in a birthday scene because they didn't want to pay the royalties.  I can't remember if it was in that particular commentary, but I've heard somewhere that this would even extend to using an instrumental version in a birthday context, because it would still count as a version of Happy Birthday To You and the person with the lyric rights gets some royalties anyway (viz. Gene Rodenberry's Star Trek theme lyrics being a bit of sharp practice to get him money from something that was almost always going to be used instrumentally).

Not *quite* correct -- the Hill sisters published Good Morning To All in the 1890s, so that would be out of copyright now, but a version with the Happy Birthday lyrics was published under someone else's name while the original was still in copyright, but by the same publishers. It was claimed that changing the words "good morning" to "happy birthday" and changing the one-note "good" to the two-note "happy" made the lyric and melody sufficiently different for it to be a separately copyrightable piece.

In general, though, that kind of thing can happen -- a song is legally considered a 'joint work', and so a lyricist gets paid if an instrumental version is played, and the composer gets paid if the lyrics are used anywhere. That happens even when the two didn't collaborate -- there's a famous legal ruling that said that the lyricist of Melancholy Baby got an equal share in the music. In that case, the composer had written the music and his wife the original set of lyrics, but the publisher had got a new lyricist to write a different set of lyrics. The judge ruled that even though the two songwriters had never met, the fact that the music was written *with the intention of having a lyric* meant that the final lyricist owned half the complete song.

[Moon Dawg]

I guess Irving Burgess is not as cut-throat as Chuck Berry (Surfin' U.S.A.) or Ronald Mack (My Sweet Lord)

 Chuck certainly isn't the nicest guy in rock & roll, but it should be noted that the publishers initiated the lawsuit over "Surfin' USA"/"Sweet Little Sixteen." Chuck was incarcerated when "Surfin' USA" came out in March 1963.

[Autotune]

PT is different. That's a derivative song. This is a re-write. "The Wanderer" was probably public domain by the time Alan picked that up. Plus Al is more an interpreter than he is an author. It's always been like this.

Nope, not public domain, still listed with ASCAP.
However, Burgess himself is also the credited 'writer' of songs like Jamaica Farewell and Day-O (Banana Boat Song) which are apparently older Jamaican or Trinidadian songs that he modified without crediting their original authors. And The Wanderer is a rewrite of the old folk song 900 Miles --  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VhmT6vOZRc . 900 Miles is *also* the basis of the Peter, Paul & Mary song 500 Miles, and is itself based on the old bluegrass song Reuben's Train -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3tqfRoZ2Tk

great! Thanks for the info!

[guitarfool2002]

Chuck certainly isn't the nicest guy in rock & roll, but it should be noted that the publishers initiated the lawsuit over "Surfin' USA"/"Sweet Little Sixteen." Chuck was incarcerated when "Surfin' USA" came out in March 1963.

Same with the famous "Come Together"/"You Can't Catch Me" case involving Lennon in the 70's, and as I named it in an earlier post, those "publishers" at least around the Chuck Berry tunes were those who some would consider among the more unsavory characters in the history of rock.

More than one story exists of someone who legitimately did write or co-write a song questioning said associates who were listed as publishers over writing credits on a record and getting a reply that involved either being shown a gun or being shown the door by force, or both which was often the case.

The stories are out there, just search for the name that appears on a song's credits that doesn't seem to fit and put together the reasons why it got there.