Do Sail On, Sailor vocals of Carl or Dennis exist?

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

That's a shame if it's true. I know I've seen old posts by Desper here where he said he had a version done in 1971.

Right, which he played over the phone to somebody, who said it was just Blondie.

I was the guy who heard it over the phone courtesy of Mr. Desper. The tape he played me was definitely a different mix from what was released and featured more elaborate backing vocals that kind of simulated the rolling of waves. Mr. Desper believed the tape dated back to 1971 (just before his tenure with the band ended) and was under the impression the lead vocal was Carl. I could not distinguish any difference in the lead vocal at all from the released version - it still sounded like the same Blondie vocal we've heard all these years (even though I wanted to hear a difference). Again, it was over a phone so I can't say with certainty.

However, there is no question that the backing vocals were completely different. I was reminded of how early takes of "Help Me Rhonda" and "Little Honda" featured more complicated backing vocals that were scaled back for the release versions - the same thing with this mix of "Sailor". It would make a nice rarity on any upcoming box sets.

Soooo glad the person, you, who he played the clip for turned up!  Saves me from having to remember the details.

[DonnyL]

That's a shame if it's true. I know I've seen old posts by Desper here where he said he had a version done in 1971.

Right, which he played over the phone to somebody, who said it was just Blondie.

I was the guy who heard it over the phone courtesy of Mr. Desper. The tape he played me was definitely a different mix from what was released and featured more elaborate backing vocals that kind of simulated the rolling of waves. Mr. Desper believed the tape dated back to 1971 (just before his tenure with the band ended) and was under the impression the lead vocal was Carl. I could not distinguish any difference in the lead vocal at all from the released version - it still sounded like the same Blondie vocal we've heard all these years (even though I wanted to hear a difference). Again, it was over a phone so I can't say with certainty.

However, there is no question that the backing vocals were completely different. I was reminded of how early takes of "Help Me Rhonda" and "Little Honda" featured more complicated backing vocals that were scaled back for the release versions - the same thing with this mix of "Sailor". It would make a nice rarity on any upcoming box sets.

What doesn't make sense is how Desper wound up with a working mix for a song recorded in mid-late '72. If they took a stab at it when Desper was employed by the group, it wouldn't have Blondie on the vocal. Even if Blondie were around to sing the vocal, why would they try Dennis, then Carl, then decide on Blondie for the final if they already knew he was going to sing it?

 ... am I missing something ?

[TonyW]

There's also a version that turned up on the MacGillivray/Freeman surf movie Five Summer Stories whuich was released before the Holland album. To be honest I'm not sure its any different from the Holland version but the movie was certainly released well before the Holland album and may be an earlier version. Trader and California are also in the movie.

[Rocker]

There's also a version that turned up on the MacGillivray/Freeman surf movie Five Summer Stories whuich was released before the Holland album. To be honest I'm not sure its any different from the Holland version but the movie was certainly released well before the Holland album and may be an earlier version. Trader and California are also in the movie.

Feel Flows is also played it seems...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOgpxa_AMgQ

Couldn't find the SOS part.

Anyway, this thread has a lot of information:
http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php?topic=8405.0

[Stephen W. Desper]

That's a shame if it's true. I know I've seen old posts by Desper here where he said he had a version done in 1971.

Right, which he played over the phone to somebody, who said it was just Blondie.

I was the guy who heard it over the phone courtesy of Mr. Desper. The tape he played me was definitely a different mix from what was released and featured more elaborate backing vocals that kind of simulated the rolling of waves. Mr. Desper believed the tape dated back to 1971 (just before his tenure with the band ended) and was under the impression the lead vocal was Carl. I could not distinguish any difference in the lead vocal at all from the released version - it still sounded like the same Blondie vocal we've heard all these years (even though I wanted to hear a difference). Again, it was over a phone so I can't say with certainty.

However, there is no question that the backing vocals were completely different. I was reminded of how early takes of "Help Me Rhonda" and "Little Honda" featured more complicated backing vocals that were scaled back for the release versions - the same thing with this mix of "Sailor". It would make a nice rarity on any upcoming box sets.

What doesn't make sense is how Desper wound up with a working mix for a song recorded in mid-late '72. If they took a stab at it when Desper was employed by the group, it wouldn't have Blondie on the vocal. Even if Blondie were around to sing the vocal, why would they try Dennis, then Carl, then decide on Blondie for the final if they already knew he was going to sing it?

 ... am I missing something ?

COMMENT:  If you are missing something, maybe I can fill in the blanks.

Brian has been playing SOS far longer than you realize. It’s been in his head for decades. Parks helped to solidify Brian’s ideas. I do remember the day Brian announced that he wanted to “put something down on tape for Sail-On, Sailor,” which started a series of versions of SOS to be recorded. Looking back, it went on for months.

SOS was recorded at first as a series of sections. Kind of, a working it out or rehearsing on tape and then listening. Recording. Listening. Making changes. Re-recording the changes by erasing what was before by recording over with the newest version. This may all unfold over a day’s time or take a week, or longer.

After a few basic tracks were laid, Brian was anxious to record a working vocal track. He was good at singing SOS, but wanted someone else to sing lead. He was insistent. Dennis went first, but only a few lines, giving up soon. If I recall, Bruce gave it a try, but when everyone heard Carl, the contest was over. He laid down several leads over several months. These were done at Carl’s request. Replacing one attempt after another as Carl worked out the pacing. Carl was never completely happy with his vocal, always trying it a new way. The song was developed to the point that ruff mixes were being done. The Background Vocals were being developed and adding up to moving melodies. All through the time of recording Surf’s Up this song was being recorded as part of the Warner offering. Eventually the song was mixed down, but release was delayed by Warner A&R so now Carl could really work on his vocal to his delight. I don’t know were the master mix tape is now or that it even exists. I have a copy somewhere in storage.

After that delay the multi-track was moved to Holland where Moffet and the Boys again took to making some changes to the recording, including substituting Blondie for Carl at Carl’s insistence. It was finally released on Holland, but it was mostly Made in The USA.

Both vocalists are excellent in their own rights as I’ve worked with both men recording in many vocal settings. I’m too close to the many vocals I recorded of Carl singing SOS to be objective. Also mixing dozens of concert performances featuring Carl’s vocal of this song fixes it in your mind. For me, it will always be Carl’s song.

~swd

[Craig Feldspar]

Thank you Mr. Desper. Your posts are always great reads, and really reflect a passion and a reverence you had for working with the band. It is so great to have you on Smiley Smile with us. Great story about this song, I had no idea it had been worked on for so long, nor that Carl had laid down so many different lead vocal tracks during the Surfs Up period. I will be first in line to purchase the long awaited and much anticipated re-release of your book, which i'm sure has more stories like these. Thanks!

[DonnyL]

That's a shame if it's true. I know I've seen old posts by Desper here where he said he had a version done in 1971.

Right, which he played over the phone to somebody, who said it was just Blondie.

I was the guy who heard it over the phone courtesy of Mr. Desper. The tape he played me was definitely a different mix from what was released and featured more elaborate backing vocals that kind of simulated the rolling of waves. Mr. Desper believed the tape dated back to 1971 (just before his tenure with the band ended) and was under the impression the lead vocal was Carl. I could not distinguish any difference in the lead vocal at all from the released version - it still sounded like the same Blondie vocal we've heard all these years (even though I wanted to hear a difference). Again, it was over a phone so I can't say with certainty.

However, there is no question that the backing vocals were completely different. I was reminded of how early takes of "Help Me Rhonda" and "Little Honda" featured more complicated backing vocals that were scaled back for the release versions - the same thing with this mix of "Sailor". It would make a nice rarity on any upcoming box sets.

What doesn't make sense is how Desper wound up with a working mix for a song recorded in mid-late '72. If they took a stab at it when Desper was employed by the group, it wouldn't have Blondie on the vocal. Even if Blondie were around to sing the vocal, why would they try Dennis, then Carl, then decide on Blondie for the final if they already knew he was going to sing it?

 ... am I missing something ?

COMMENT:  If you are missing something, maybe I can fill in the blanks.

Brian has been playing SOS far longer than you realize. It’s been in his head for decades. Parks helped to solidify Brian’s ideas. I do remember the day Brian announced that he wanted to “put something down on tape for Sail-On, Sailor,” which started a series of versions of SOS to be recorded. Looking back, it went on for months.

SOS was recorded at first as a series of sections. Kind of, a working it out or rehearsing on tape and then listening. Recording. Listening. Making changes. Re-recording the changes by erasing what was before by recording over with the newest version. This may all unfold over a day’s time or take a week, or longer.

After a few basic tracks were laid, Brian was anxious to record a working vocal track. He was good at singing SOS, but wanted someone else to sing lead. He was insistent. Dennis went first, but only a few lines, giving up soon. If I recall, Bruce gave it a try, but when everyone heard Carl, the contest was over. He laid down several leads over several months. These were done at Carl’s request. Replacing one attempt after another as Carl worked out the pacing. Carl was never completely happy with his vocal, always trying it a new way. The song was developed to the point that ruff mixes were being done. The Background Vocals were being developed and adding up to moving melodies. All through the time of recording Surf’s Up this song was being recorded as part of the Warner offering. Eventually the song was mixed down, but release was delayed by Warner A&R so now Carl could really work on his vocal to his delight. I don’t know were the master mix tape is now or that it even exists. I have a copy somewhere in storage.

After that delay the multi-track was moved to Holland where Moffet and the Boys again took to making some changes to the recording, including substituting Blondie for Carl at Carl’s insistence. It was finally released on Holland, but it was mostly Made in The USA.

Both vocalists are excellent in their own rights as I’ve worked with both men recording in many vocal settings. I’m too close to the many vocals I recorded of Carl singing SOS to be objective. Also mixing dozens of concert performances featuring Carl’s vocal of this song fixes it in your mind. For me, it will always be Carl’s song.

~swd

now THAT makes sense. Thanks for the timeline and explanation. we've been learning a lot of the 'facts' in Beach Boys-land are not quite as they seem lately !

[superunison]

That's a shame if it's true. I know I've seen old posts by Desper here where he said he had a version done in 1971.

Right, which he played over the phone to somebody, who said it was just Blondie.

I was the guy who heard it over the phone courtesy of Mr. Desper. The tape he played me was definitely a different mix from what was released and featured more elaborate backing vocals that kind of simulated the rolling of waves. Mr. Desper believed the tape dated back to 1971 (just before his tenure with the band ended) and was under the impression the lead vocal was Carl. I could not distinguish any difference in the lead vocal at all from the released version - it still sounded like the same Blondie vocal we've heard all these years (even though I wanted to hear a difference). Again, it was over a phone so I can't say with certainty.

However, there is no question that the backing vocals were completely different. I was reminded of how early takes of "Help Me Rhonda" and "Little Honda" featured more complicated backing vocals that were scaled back for the release versions - the same thing with this mix of "Sailor". It would make a nice rarity on any upcoming box sets.

What doesn't make sense is how Desper wound up with a working mix for a song recorded in mid-late '72. If they took a stab at it when Desper was employed by the group, it wouldn't have Blondie on the vocal. Even if Blondie were around to sing the vocal, why would they try Dennis, then Carl, then decide on Blondie for the final if they already knew he was going to sing it?

 ... am I missing something ?

COMMENT:  If you are missing something, maybe I can fill in the blanks.

Brian has been playing SOS far longer than you realize. It’s been in his head for decades. Parks helped to solidify Brian’s ideas. I do remember the day Brian announced that he wanted to “put something down on tape for Sail-On, Sailor,” which started a series of versions of SOS to be recorded. Looking back, it went on for months.

SOS was recorded at first as a series of sections. Kind of, a working it out or rehearsing on tape and then listening. Recording. Listening. Making changes. Re-recording the changes by erasing what was before by recording over with the newest version. This may all unfold over a day’s time or take a week, or longer.

After a few basic tracks were laid, Brian was anxious to record a working vocal track. He was good at singing SOS, but wanted someone else to sing lead. He was insistent. Dennis went first, but only a few lines, giving up soon. If I recall, Bruce gave it a try, but when everyone heard Carl, the contest was over. He laid down several leads over several months. These were done at Carl’s request. Replacing one attempt after another as Carl worked out the pacing. Carl was never completely happy with his vocal, always trying it a new way. The song was developed to the point that ruff mixes were being done. The Background Vocals were being developed and adding up to moving melodies. All through the time of recording Surf’s Up this song was being recorded as part of the Warner offering. Eventually the song was mixed down, but release was delayed by Warner A&R so now Carl could really work on his vocal to his delight. I don’t know were the master mix tape is now or that it even exists. I have a copy somewhere in storage.

After that delay the multi-track was moved to Holland where Moffet and the Boys again took to making some changes to the recording, including substituting Blondie for Carl at Carl’s insistence. It was finally released on Holland, but it was mostly Made in The USA.

Both vocalists are excellent in their own rights as I’ve worked with both men recording in many vocal settings. I’m too close to the many vocals I recorded of Carl singing SOS to be objective. Also mixing dozens of concert performances featuring Carl’s vocal of this song fixes it in your mind. For me, it will always be Carl’s song.

~swd

Thank you for your insight Mr. Desper!!!! This is suuuuper interesting, but I have to say, the first thought that comes to mind is WHY is something as cool as this in storage??? I had always assumed that all of the Desper recordings/outtakes/alternate versions had been archived (and subsequently up for review for later archival release)..................

[Banana]

Wow, really cool!  Thanks for the update on the history of this legendary song.  I really had no idea that Brian had worked on it off-and-on for so long.  I guess I always subscribed to the desperate Beach Boys being handed the rough cassette by Van Dyke Parks and then finishing it off.  This new version sheds a lot of light onto the subject.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Personally, I can see how someone might mistake Carl for Blondie over the phone. Or visa versa. Just think of Carl's vocal on Darlin. To me Carl and Blondie are like Brian and Al. There is a difference, but over the phone it may sound the same.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Thank you for your insight Mr. Desper!!!! This is suuuuper interesting, but I have to say, the first thought that comes to mind is WHY is something as cool as this in storage??? I had always assumed that all of the Desper recordings/outtakes/alternate versions had been archived (and subsequently up for review for later archival release)..................

COMMENT:  That is to say, my copy is in storage. Where the Beach Boy copies exist is anyone's guess. Perhaps all the mixes found their way to The Netherlands, were listened to, recorded over, who knows.  I still have all my copies and other stuff in several boxes, stored in UHaul Storage in a small town in centeral Florida. As time goes by I have been moving the stored stuff to my home in Clearwater, but it's a slow process. What I played on the phone may have been a cassette, I don't recall.

I do recall how deeply Brian felt about the this song, a microcosm of his life or the way about how he felt it was going.  Take a moment to slowly read and reflect on the lyrics. So much is said with such few words.

BEACH BOYS   "Sail On Sailor"

I sailed an ocean, unsettled ocean
Through restful waters and deep commotion
Often frightened, unenlightened
Sail on, sail on sailor

I wrest the waters, fight Neptune's waters
Sail through the sorrows of life's marauders
Unrepenting, often empty
Sail on, sail on sailor

Caught like a sewer rat alone but I sail
Bought like a crust of bread, but oh do I wail

Seldom stumble, never crumble
Try to tumble, life's a rumble
Feel the stinging I've been given
Never ending, unrelenting
Heartbreak searing, always fearing
Never caring, persevering
Sail on, sail on, sailor

I work the seaways, the gale-swept seaways
Past shipwrecked daughters of wicked waters
Uninspired, drenched and tired
Wail on, wail on, sailor

Always needing, even bleeding
Never feeding all my feelings
Damn the thunder, must I blunder
There's no wonder all I'm under
Stop the crying and the lying
And the sighing and my dying

Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor
Sail on, sail on sailor

SOS with Carl singing lead >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZIqi9UnQH0&feature=related

In this interview witn Blondie, he talks about SOS recording. Although he gets the time-line confused, he confirms it was recorded at Brian's house. The house studio was dismantalled before departure by the group to Holland . . . Blondie gets that mixed-up, but still makes the point that SOS was already recorded before Holland. The lead was added in Holland. Where it was mixed again, Holland or Hollywood, is not clear. It is the re-mix to which Blondie refers, I believe.

Blondie Interview (see 1:39 to 2:45) >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNsulymGkOE&feature=related

Someday, long after Brian and myself have departed, this song will be re-discovered and recorded by a future vocalist unknown by any of us. Perhaps it will be used as a theme song for a show or a TV series . . . who knows, but it is unique enough to find itself having a new life, years from now.  

~swd

==========================================

PS  I will add this COMMENT:  that after Holland was released and I obtained a copy, I called Carl to congradulate him on the album. In the course of that conversation, I complained and he apologized that no engineering credit was given me for SOS on the album. All those hours and labor over this song should have been recognized. He said he would try to have credit given in re-issues of Holland -- but we both knew this was just a polite jesture on his part. If you listen to the overall "sound" of the album, Sail-On, Sailor does "sound" different than the way the other songs are recorded. But the missing credit  was an oversight and so life goes on.

 ~swd

[Banana]

I've always been curious about how the lyrics developed.  Reading through them slowly...one does get a sense that they describe Brian's mental state in an almost uncanny way...but I've always been under the assumption that several other writers either finished or changed the final lyrics.  How involved was Brian in what turned out to be the final set of lyrics?

[Rocker]

I guess this fits into this thread. Here's KGB's version of Sail On Sailor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYBoYdc17Tw

I must admit that I don't know when it was recorded and also don't know if the Beach Boys ever cut a version with these lyrics.

BTW Ray Charles did a very nice version of it on the 25th anniversary special in Hawaii


I hope you don't mind me posting this (again) but as a shout-out for Blondie, here's him singing a great version with Anton Fig in June of this year:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5WDhyPX9XI

[drbeachboy]

Thanks, Rocker. Great live version.

[Stephen W. Desper]

I've always been curious about how the lyrics developed.  Reading through them slowly...one does get a sense that they describe Brian's mental state in an almost uncanny way...but I've always been under the assumption that several other writers either finished or changed the final lyrics.  How involved was Brian in what turned out to be the final set of lyrics?

COMMENT:  I really don't know how the lyrics developed. I have always credited Van Dyke Parks with creating them and working it all out with Brian. But other people have gotton credit for SOS lyrics, namely: Tandyn Almer, Jack Rieley, and Ray Kennedy.  However I would spectulate that these folks all did minor adjusting, but got major credit. I mean, read the lyrics . . . those are Van Dyke Parks lyrics if I ever heard any!

During this recording time, Brian was really out of it. He became friends with Tandyn, who lived in a rented place about a mile from Brian's. I don't know how they met, but I went over to Tandyn's with Brian once. There I found several junkies, sitting around a table full of drugs including LSD and Cocaine. This was not a good environment for Brian, but he seemed to find his way over to Tandyn's dispite everyone's efforts to keep him away. Brian gave Tandyn some writing credit for the song . . . and that is Brian's to give. To this day Tandyn Almer still gets a check, but if you ask me this credit was a drug induced jesture advantaged when Brian was most vulnerable. The Rieley credit was undoubtedly given for Jack's work with Brian in Holland on Holland. I don't know Ray or about that connection.

Whoever wrote them, they remain great lyrics.  ~swd 

[startBBtoday]

While on the subject of Holland and Sail On Sailor, is the picture of Brian on the back of the album from 1972, or was that an earlier picture they used?

[Roger Ryan]

Thanks to Mr. Desper for stepping in to give us the background on this story.

I admit that it simply isn't logical for Mr. Desper's reference tape mix to contain the Blondie lead vocal recorded in Holland after Mr. Desper's tenure with the band had ended. What I can say is if the lead vocal I heard was indeed Carl, then Blondie mimicked Carl's delivery to an extraordinary extent when he recorded his version. The phrasing and the emphasis were nearly identical to what appeared on the HOLLAND album version...which makes one wonder why Carl felt his own lead wasn't good enough!

It's quite possible that this mix only exists on Mr. Desper's reference tape given that vocal parts were then replaced over the next year-and-a-half. Again, it sure would be nice to see stuff like this released on a rarity set.

[guitarfool2002]

This is simply awesome information...thank you!

As far as writing credits go, I've always wondered about that issue since on the surface it would seem to be a Brian/Van Dyke lyric. But two things as mentioned, song credits could be easily given away like a gift, or to repay a debt, or even to help someone out. Imagine getting points or credits on a successful song or album just by having your name listed in the right paperwork, and you literally sit back and collect royalty checks for doing nothing. The famous case is RCA engineer Hank Cicalo receiving writing credit for a Monkees song as thanks from the band for his work, and he used the payments received to buy a house. And he had nothing to do with the writing.

And isn't there an account of Brian at a certain time playing his ideas for SOS at various gatherings and at various places wherever there was a piano, and actively asking anyone who was around him for help or input on writing the song? It would explain a credit being given if someone said "Hey Brian, try this..." and it just hit him perfectly at that moment.

[Banana]

Great stuff!  This is the main reason I joined this forum...to learn things I didn't already know.  The song is so legendary....yet so much myth has sprung up about its creation.  The idea that "Holland" was rejected for not having a single...and then Van Dyke riding to the rescue with the "cut the s**t, Brian" cassette and the rest of the band pulling together a finished version of the song with some lyrical work by Rieley has seemingly become so entrenched...but it's not shocking that there could be more to the story than we always thought.  I agree, the lyrics do sound like they came from the pen of Mr. Parks.  I really can believe that this song was far further developed by Brian than just a rough cassette and that a lot of the lyrical credit was either given away or for minor lyrical tweaking.  If my memory serves me well...didn't Van Dyke have to really fight to earn a co-writer credit on this track?  Cool stuff...and another example as to why the Beach Boys are so interesting!

[Andrew G. Doe]

Thanks to Mr. Desper for stepping in to give us the background on this story.

I admit that it simply isn't logical for Mr. Desper's reference tape mix to contain the Blondie lead vocal recorded in Holland after Mr. Desper's tenure with the band had ended.

Blondie's vocal was recorded in LA late fall 1972, months after the Dutch escapade. Remember, "SO,S" wasn't on the original master handed to Reprise but was resurrected to provide the hit single that the company didn't hear.

The basic riff is very resonant of a piano part in "Tennesse Waltz".

[Jim V.]

So I'm gonna try to figure this out.

Is it pretty much established that the instrumental track of "Sail On, Sailor" was cut with Brian during the time of the Surf's Up sessions, therefore pre-dating the trip to Holland? Because as I understood it before, I thought I remember hearing that Brian had nothing to do with the actual recording of the song, besides giving instructions to Carl over the phone when they supposedly tracked it in late 1972.

Before reading all of the info from Mr. Desper, my opinion always seemed to be that "Sail On, Sailor" was something that Brian had on a very skeletal level, and was then fleshed out by Carl. But Mr. Desper's recounting of the evolution of the song make it sound like Brian was much more involved in the tracking.

As far as the "hypnotize me, Van Dyke" tape, I personally don't wanna hear Brian experiencing  that kind of psychic pain. Maybe if the rest of the demo is musically sound and insightful, then they could use that part of the tape, but hopefully they would not include the exchange between Brian and Van Dyke.

[Sheriff John Stone]

I still have all my copies and other stuff in several boxes, stored in UHaul Storage in a small town in centeral Florida.

 

[18thofMay]

I still have all my copies and other stuff in several boxes, stored in UHaul Storage in a small town in centeral Florida.

 

STORAGE WARS!!

[Mikie]

Thanks for your recollections, Mr. Desper!   

[Zander]

Wow - a Carl vocal that exists for a version of "Sail On, Sailor" - another myth finally debunked. We definitely need to hear that...