Brian's problem's...again

[Mikie]

Well, supposedly he was talking about the past in that interview.

No, he was talking about what he was experiencing at the time. In the early 90's, when he was still with Landy.

[The Heartical Don]

His brother had to fight to get control of his treatment and weaned him off the heavy medications he was given for his schizoaffective illness.  

I think that's actually precisely backwards...His brother was fighting to get him away from their mother, who was preventing him from seeing any doctors or being medicated in any way.  It's generally thought that his return to music has a lot to do with his getting back into medical and psychiatric treatment and getting on to a medication regime that works for him.

Roky's institutionalization in the 70s may have messed him up pretty badly as well, but it was also somewhat seperate from what he was going through later in life with his mom.

There is a follow-up story in the DVD in which Roky's brother Sumner said he no longer believed in the concept of mental illness or psychiatry.  He had Roky taken off of medications (that was elaborated on in some interviews that were given around the time of the DVD release).  When the brother first got a conservatorship of Roky, he brought him in for medical care, including getting him on medications.  After living with Roky for a couple of years, he decided Roky would be better off without the meds.  I'm not sure what made him change his mind, whether it was the side effects outweighing the benefits of the meds or maybe Sumner got into some religion like Scientology.  In any case, Sumner also had himself removed as conservator, after Roky stopped taking medications, learned to drive again, and began living independently.

Thanks for bringing this up, Mcg -
It is largely a matter of semantics. Psychiatry is the knowledge about causes for, and treatment of the disorders  of our minds, for millennia thought to be quite independent of our bodily matter.
That is no longer the case. Depression and obsessive-compulsive disorders, to name two, have been unequivocally shown to be caused by, or at the very least strongly linked to, abnormalities in distinct brain regions, and hence may with good reason be seen as no different in this respect (I emphasize the ‘in this respect’) to Parkinson’s or Korsakov’s, and thus also be seen as neurological disorders. It is just historical happenstance and lack of technological expertise in brain research that neurology and psychiatry came into being as separate medical disciplines.
Which frees us from a lot of gobbledygook about ‘being possessed’, ‘being a simulator’, ‘being in need of an exorcist’, and so on and so forth. I for one, and I don’t do that as an amateur, know that the mere act of getting a mentally ill person rid of pills will cure his pains is an erroneous assumption.
The other side of this coin is what Landy did: using truckloads of wrong and obsolete types of pills and solutions (which he did, as far as I know, to control Brian for his own ends, one of these being insidiously availing himself of 70% of Brian’s changed last will and testament).\


I hope you follow my argument here. Take depression: it is known by now that putting a person under severe and chronic stress will, in all probability, make him/her depressed. That happens because, amongst other things, a brain area called the ‘hippocampus’ gets damaged or deteriorated in the process. Nerve cells get ‘pruned’, they lose a lot of their mutual contacts, and also the development of new nerve cells in that hippocampus decreases.

With:

(a)   Taking away the stress and providing the patient with a safe and warm environment;
(b)   Stimulating his/her creative activity;
(c)   Getting him/her to do physical activity;
(d)   …and administering, if needed, the right types of medication –
                the depression can be combated successfully.
                All of this has to be done on a fashion tailored to the individual.


And therefore it is all not a matter or: yes/or no pills, and yes/or no gurus at hand. The majority of psychiatrists nowadays is highly trained as ‘biological/biochemical psychiatrist’ and cannot be compared in any sense to the nerve doctors of the 19th century.


If I am rightfully informed, Brian changed, in the course of the Nineties of the 20th century, from someone put on levels of old-fashioned meds that could have served half the population of NYC to someone now using a very moderate quantum of one of the newer anti-depressant – and the other requirements I jotted down above were given to him in abundance.
The results are there for all of us to see.

[JohnMill]

I remember an interview back in the 90's, I think it was with Diane Sawyer, where his face got real contorted. He told her that sometimes he saw the Devil in the showerhead.

Pardon my ignorance on the subject but the "shower demons" story is something that seems to get brought up a lot even by people I know that aren't Brian Wilson or Beach Boys fans.  I guess my question is since this story has become so widespread, is it believed that the hallucinations are consequences of the massive amounts of LSD that Wilson took in the sixties?  The reason being is because I'm under the impression that a great deal of people think that Brian's problems lie in the fact that he was essentially an acid casualty and still experiences mental issues that other acid users experience long after abandoning taking the drug.

[Heysaboda]

I'd recommend the documentary on Roky Erickson of the Thirteenth Floor Elevators for people interested in Brian's saga, because Roky's life was somewhat similar, though Roky had far less money (which was both a bad and good thing).  Roky had similar problems to Brian (mental illness and drug use), though I think his were at least somewhat worse.  Roky also spent time in state mental hospitals where he was medicated heavily.  His brother had to fight to get control of his treatment and weaned him off the heavy medications he was given for his schizoaffective illness.  Roky actually improved when he got off the medications.  Age is also a factor, because in many cases, people with those types of problems get better over the years naturally.  Roky now tours when for years he was not doing anything.  He's still eccentric but seems to be doing okay now. 

I'll look into the Roky story, looks interesting, thanks!  However re: "people with those types of problems get better over the years naturally", no, no, this is almost never, ever, ever true.  I am speaking from very long experience with my father (and others) who was diagnosed with "mental illness" (schizophrenia/paranoia) way back in the '60's.  (This was long before the use of the term "bipolar".)

The problem with "mental illness" is finding the right set of treatments that work; it's a very long, and often sad road.  We know a lot more now that we did in the 60's but we still don't know enough.  If you read up on it, people who are really diagnosed with a mental illness will almost always get worse with age, unless they have found some successful treatment.  Anyway, I have a lot of experience w/ this and I am not meaning to "rant" about it.

[Wirestone]

I remember an interview back in the 90's, I think it was with Diane Sawyer, where his face got real contorted. He told her that sometimes he saw the Devil in the showerhead.

Pardon my ignorance on the subject but the "shower demons" story is something that seems to get brought up a lot even by people I know that aren't Brian Wilson or Beach Boys fans.  I guess my question is since this story has become so widespread, is it believed that the hallucinations are consequences of the massive amounts of LSD that Wilson took in the sixties?  The reason being is because I'm under the impression that a great deal of people think that Brian's problems lie in the fact that he was essentially an acid casualty and still experiences mental issues that other acid users experience long after abandoning taking the drug.?

That's nonsense. According to folks who would know, BW only dropped acid a handful of times in the 60s. His worst mental symptoms didn't occur until the 1970s, when be was primarily taking cocaine and some heroin.

[ontor pertawst]

The Roky story definitely has a lot in common -- hearing voices, supportive family and bands. I caught his act recently and the love that poured out from the audience and band towards this guy was infectious and SUPER FAMILIAR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=500Rz37nsQc

Right down to the security blanket sporadically played instrument for added comfort level, aw. For the encore he gives it up with a big smile and has a ball:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh1PGimmFto

[AndrewHickey]

I'll look into the Roky story, looks interesting, thanks!  However re: "people with those types of problems get better over the years naturally", no, no, this is almost never, ever, ever true.  I am speaking from very long experience with my father (and others) who was diagnosed with "mental illness" (schizophrenia/paranoia) way back in the '60's.  (This was long before the use of the term "bipolar".)

The problem with "mental illness" is finding the right set of treatments that work; it's a very long, and often sad road.  We know a lot more now that we did in the 60's but we still don't know enough.  If you read up on it, people who are really diagnosed with a mental illness will almost always get worse with age, unless they have found some successful treatment.  Anyway, I have a lot of experience w/ this and I am not meaning to "rant" about it.

Roky Erickson is an especially sad case because by all accounts he was OK to start with, but pled insanity to avoid a ludicrously long jail term for marijuana possession (he would have got ten years under Texas law at the time), and was committed to a psychiatric hospital where he was given electroshock treatment that left him brain-damaged and ill. (As he sings on his most recent, rather lovely, album, "Electricity hammered me through my head/Till nothing at all was backward instead")

As for people getting better with age, it depends (going on my experience of a few years working on a psychiatric ward, plus family members with various problems). A lot of schizophrenia at the moment is at least partly drug-related -- if the patient can be persuaded just not to take the drug, it can often be improved (if never completely repaired).  The ward I worked on had more cases of cannabis-related psychosis than of anything else.

Other illnesses are stress-related - and these *can* often get better with age, either because one's hormones settle down, one's life becomes less stressful, or both.

And finally there are those cases which are due to a fundamental problem with the brain, If this is caused by organic damage, it can sometimes get better (the brain's quite good at rewiring itself to route round problem areas) but if it's a chemical imbalance, where your body doesn't produce enough of one type or another of neurotransmitter, you're basically stuck with it, and the illness will, even if treated, be more likely to deteriorate than get better.

Of course, the problem is trying to figure out which of these is the cause, especially since having one makes the others more likely (if you're having hallucinations, you're likely to be having quite a stressful life, and may well want to calm yourself down by smoking too much dope...)

[Mikie]

Pardon my ignorance on the subject but the "shower demons" story is something that seems to get brought up a lot even by people I know that aren't Brian Wilson or Beach Boys fans.  I guess my question is since this story has become so widespread, is it believed that the hallucinations are consequences of the massive amounts of LSD that Wilson took in the sixties?  The reason being is because I'm under the impression that a great deal of people think that Brian's problems lie in the fact that he was essentially an acid casualty and still experiences mental issues that other acid users experience long after abandoning taking the drug.

John, I'm not an expert on the subject. Everything I know is what I've read in books on Brian (i.e. The Wilson Project) and from guys like Peter Reum who have posted about it on message boards through the years. Surprised you've heard about the "Shower head demons" outside of Brian's world. This is the only time I've read/heard about that. It sounds like a symptom of schizophrenia. He also has Auditory Hallucinations (hears Murry and Spector talking to him) and I always thought it was the result of taking undiluted acid in the 60's. But after watching the Sawyer interview (among others) in the 90's. I started to wonder - this DEFINITELY was not the same Brian I met in 1976, who seemed MUCH more normal and lucid then and was completely void of the slurring speech, facial contortions, anti-social behavior, and zoning off into La La Land.

I stuck up for Landy in the 90's as he really did save Brian's life. But then I read more and more and more about the over-use of drugs he prescribed Brian and I started to wonder if that did more damage than the acid. I've known a couple of people who did acid (and a lot of coke) in the 70's and 80's they're still alive and well and very productive and it hasn't seemed to have taken a permanent toll on them.
But again, we're talking about more potent drugs that Brian took back then. Brian also did MASSIVE amounts of cocaine in the 70's. But I'm starting to wonder how often he took acid in the 60's and how much of an effect it had on him long term. A few people say that Brian didn't do very much acid at all. I know some people are more sensitive to hard drugs than others, but I'm just not real sure anymore.

Last I heard, one of the drugs he's taking is Librium. I think Melinda said Brian was taking one or two drugs now to keep him on an even keel.

[Mikie]

That's nonsense. According to folks who would know, BW only dropped acid a handful of times in the 60s. His worst mental symptoms didn't occur until the 1970s, when be was primarily taking cocaine and some heroin.

Brian indicated that he tried horse once and he zoned out and went to sleep. Seems like it didn't do much for him. But he did do a LOT of coke throughout the 70's and into the early 80's. He snuck it even while under Landy's care!

Edit: I just remembered what Brian said in the "It's OK" NBC TV special in 1976.  "I took the acid and it just tore my head off!"

So who knows anymore.

[endofposts]

The positive effect of Landy on Brian had as much to do with re-socializing him and making him live a so-called normal life and training him to ignore the voices in his head.  The medications never elimated those.  People have this great awe of medications, but they're only effective for some people.  For people with schizophrenic type symptoms, they work something like only half the time.  It may not seem like such a bad gamble to take someone off the medication if it's not eliminating their symptoms, especially if it's causing major side effects.  All the anti-schizophrenia meds have potentially dangerous side effects.  It's a trade-off with little pay-off for some people with those illnesses.  Maybe that was true in Roky's case.  His brother helped him get a better lifestyle and eliminated negative influences like Landy did for Brian.  So, Landy keeping Brian away from street drugs and making him get up in the morning and exercise and write songs was the thing that save Brian more than any meds.

Even drugs like anti-depressants are potentially dangerous.  There have been articles that say that people on those drugs long-term have heart risks. Americans take so many of those drugs and here in the States, they're often prescribed by family doctors instead of psychiatrists as mother's little helper type drugs. 

[Wirestone]

Brian and drugs are complicated because for a long time it was easier to claim that you were a drug casualty than to say you were mentally ill. It's a cultural thing, albeit one that has changed.

And it's also possible that those close to Brian and the situation have every incentive to minimize what happened to him -- both in terms of drugs and mental illness -- because no one wants to look bad in retrospect. Just remember that the fact that Brian was institutionalized in the late 60s is a relatively new piece of knowledge -- I don't think that was commonly known until the last 10 years or so. So that was a secret that was held for some 30-plus years.

I think it's difficult to know precisely anything about Brian's "true" mental state, because he's smart and crafty, the people around him have every incentive to mislead (and have for the last 40 years), and the popular entertainment media and fandom prefer compelling, emotional stories to flawed human reality.

[Wilson Love]

Brian and drugs are complicated because for a long time it was easier to claim that you were a drug casualty than to say you were mentally ill. It's a cultural thing, albeit one that has changed.

And it's also possible that those close to Brian and the situation have every incentive to minimize what happened to him -- both in terms of drugs and mental illness -- because no one wants to look bad in retrospect. Just remember that the fact that Brian was institutionalized in the late 60s is a relatively new piece of knowledge -- I don't think that was commonly known until the last 10 years or so. So that was a secret that was held for some 30-plus years.

I think it's difficult to know precisely anything about Brian's "true" mental state, because he's smart and crafty, the people around him have every incentive to mislead (and have for the last 40 years), and the popular entertainment media and fandom prefer compelling, emotional stories to flawed human reality.

I have no problem believing the acid that Brian took may have done permanent damage. This was '60s Owlsley acid, very fucking potent stuff..

[b00ts]

Brian and drugs are complicated because for a long time it was easier to claim that you were a drug casualty than to say you were mentally ill. It's a cultural thing, albeit one that has changed.

And it's also possible that those close to Brian and the situation have every incentive to minimize what happened to him -- both in terms of drugs and mental illness -- because no one wants to look bad in retrospect. Just remember that the fact that Brian was institutionalized in the late 60s is a relatively new piece of knowledge -- I don't think that was commonly known until the last 10 years or so. So that was a secret that was held for some 30-plus years.

I think it's difficult to know precisely anything about Brian's "true" mental state, because he's smart and crafty, the people around him have every incentive to mislead (and have for the last 40 years), and the popular entertainment media and fandom prefer compelling, emotional stories to flawed human reality.

I have no problem believing the acid that Brian took may have done permanent damage. This was '60s Owlsley acid, very f*cking potent stuff..

Yes it was more potent in the '60s, and any psychedelic drug (even a mild psychedelic like pot) can trigger a schizophrenic episode in someone predisposed to it. LSD isn't the mind-wasting drug it is made out to be, although people can suffer post traumatic stress from bad trips, especially if predisposed to mental illness.

[darling]

. According to folks who would know, BW only dropped acid a handful of times in the 60s. His worst mental symptoms didn't occur until the 1970s, when be was primarily taking cocaine and some heroin.

For what it's worth, from 2006 or so:

"How old were you when the voices started?

About 25... I’d taken some psychedelic drugs, and then about a week after that I started hearing voices, and they’ve never stopped."
http://abilitymagazine.com/past/brianW/brianw.html

Last I heard, one of the drugs he's taking is Librium. I think Melinda said Brian was taking one or two drugs now to keep him on an even keel.

"I take Luvox for depression, Klonopin for anxiety and Clozaril to help with the voices and help me sleep at night."

[jwoverho]

quote]"I take Luvox for depression, Klonopin for anxiety and Clozaril to help with the voices and help me sleep at night."
[/quote]

I didn't know Brian was on Clozaril, but can comment on the treatment from personal experience as a pharmacist: Clozaril is the drug of last resort for schizophrenia due to its possible serious effects on white blood cells.  Because of this, patients on Clozaril are required to be on a national registry and have to pass blood tests before any new doses are given. Patients may have to have labs done as often as every week, and their labs must stay within set levels to continue treatment. It really is a miracle drug for schizophrenia, as I have treated patients who were totally unresponsive before treatment, but after starting the medication were able to interact and lead much more fulfilling lives.

[Autotune]

Well, supposedly he was talking about the past in that interview.

No, he was talking about what he was experiencing at the time. In the early 90's, when he was still with Landy.

Not when he answers that question. Both question and answer are in the past tense.

[Mikie]

Everybody but you got it, Leonard.   If you didn't, I'm really sorry.

[Autotune]

Everybody but you got it, Leonard.   If you didn't, I'm really sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-vhRkfFgj8

4:49 proves me right 

4:54 proves you right 

[darling]

I didn't know Brian was on Clozaril, but can comment on the treatment from personal experience as a pharmacist: Clozaril is the drug of last resort for schizophrenia...

I have good friends who work in the mental health field and their reaction - to a person - upon discovering Brian takes Clozaril is generally something like "holy fucking sh*t!"

[Mikie]

I don't understand what you're getting at, Leonard. Brian acknowledged during the Sawyer interview that he saw the Devil in the showerhead. I said that already. The YouTube clip confirmed it. So what's your point?

[endofposts]

I didn't know Brian was on Clozaril, but can comment on the treatment from personal experience as a pharmacist: Clozaril is the drug of last resort for schizophrenia...

I have good friends who work in the mental health field and their reaction - to a person - upon discovering Brian takes Clozaril is generally something like "holy f*cking sh*t!"

There have been people up close to Brian's situation who have posted about his previous medications' side effects and their feeling that Brian would have been left disabled or worse had he continued taking those other medications.  It may have been more a matter that he needed to take a completely different type of medication due to damage from taking other meds, rather than his symptoms have gotten worse or are that severe.  He's doing well considering.  He looks way more with-it than he has in the past.  Your friends in the mental health field don't sound too compassionate for being in the mental health field, IMO. 

[Ron]

I'm totally against even recreational use of any drugs at all, but Brian's problems pre-exist his drug use.  I think his drug use definately caused issues, and perhaps the hallucinations started after that... but his long term issues are things he's been suffering from since childhood in my opinion.  You can't blame it on the drugs, although it certainly didn't help the situation any that he did hard drugs while suffering from a severe mental disability. 

My opinion is that he was a highly functioning individual despite the issues, and the drug use coincided with a really stressful period of his life, and was enough to push him over the cliff a bit.  Had he never done drugs he still would have crashed eventually. 

He's recovered remarkably well with the proper treatment over the last several years.  I think a lot of his strange behavior that he has today can be attributed to the medications he takes at the present. 

Nothing does "I look SO HAPPY But inside i'm dying" quite like anti-psychotic medication.  God bless the guy, we're lucky he still tours/sings/records. 

[runnersdialzero]

Mom: Isn't he crazy?
Me: Kinda.

[SMiLE Brian]

Mom: Isn't he crazy?
Me: Kinda.

story of my life talking to people about BW.

[beach boys fan podcast]

Very brave of Brian the way he keeps putting himself on display. He does seem to be aware of the fact that people are expecting, and would ever prefer, him to act differently sometimes. Still he goes on. The moments of intense clarity he shows sometimes ("It was only a lawsuit...) is common for someone who has the mental diagnosis he himself has claimed to have. But most of the time it must be very hard.

Jo/ thebeachboyspodcast.podbean.com