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Author Topic: Manson/Dennis Story  (Read 32297 times)
MBE
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« Reply #100 on: April 19, 2012, 03:16:49 AM »

Manson's called the book a fake.  I like Never Learn Not To Love and his Cease To Exist version. I think he had talent but I never felt compelled to buy his work. Bad Karma surrounds him that's for certain. Mike talked about meeting him on Howard Stern back in 1992 or so but just said the girls around him were not to his taste! Brian and Carl allegedly did record him, and he was at Brian's home several times. The TV movies have Brian hiding but they met as Brian would have no reason to have hid in 1968. He had power over people and used it for evil. He's not the first and won't be the last. What was bad about it apart from the horrid murders (I don't think anyone would say they weren't horrid) was that people felt less safe and that the countercultre so to speak was tainted.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2012, 03:40:50 AM by Mike Eder » Logged
Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #101 on: April 19, 2012, 03:35:02 AM »

"The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched."

Feel free to scratch away, AGD.  What do we know? 

Is it right that the Beach Boys who recorded Charlie were Brian and Carl, not Dennis. Right?

I wonder if those tapes were really destroyed, considering Mike mentioned to Tom Carson in Rolling Stone that they still had them.

No, they weren't.
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MBE
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« Reply #102 on: April 19, 2012, 03:41:27 AM »

"The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched."

Feel free to scratch away, AGD.  What do we know? 

Is it right that the Beach Boys who recorded Charlie were Brian and Carl, not Dennis. Right?

I wonder if those tapes were really destroyed, considering Mike mentioned to Tom Carson in Rolling Stone that they still had them.

No, they weren't.
Desper told me he put them in a vault where they remain.
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Mike's Beard
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« Reply #103 on: April 19, 2012, 09:18:07 AM »

I would love to hear them. How would a Brian Wilson produced Charles Manson sound?
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« Reply #104 on: April 19, 2012, 09:49:01 AM »

Brian and Carl allegedly did record him, and he was at Brian's home several times.

I think either that book or Bugliosi's mentions that he indeed had a recording session at their home studio. But, as certain people are mentioned and others are not, that may be an indication of sorts where his priorities / expectations were. Like, he expected some break from Melcher / Jacobson / movie people, but there's no indication that Brian promised him anything or gave hopes.
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EthanJClarke93
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« Reply #105 on: April 27, 2012, 06:42:37 PM »

"Yes, but Brian became a drunk and a drug addict himself, as well as Carl."

I Never knew Carl was an addict, yea in the 70s but not in the mid sixties, why do people document that Dennis was a drug addict then and not Carl?
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MBE
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« Reply #106 on: April 27, 2012, 08:53:25 PM »

Besides I don't think of Brian or Dennis as having a particularly bad drug problem until Murry died or maybe in Brian's case 1972.
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« Reply #107 on: May 09, 2012, 08:32:24 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1tmJeBlOXE&feature=relmfu

hate to bring this up and sorry if it already has, but there is a clip of Manson in thi spart here that say's it is produced by Dennis at Brother.
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« Reply #108 on: May 09, 2012, 08:36:42 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1tmJeBlOXE&feature=relmfu

hate to bring this up and sorry if it already has, but there is a clip of Manson in thi spart here that say's it is produced by Dennis at Brother.
That doc is full of fake things.
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« Reply #109 on: May 09, 2012, 08:40:57 PM »

Yeah I thought so! I really hate to even bring the sh*t up.
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It’s like he hired a fashion consultant and told her to make him look “punchable.”
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« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2012, 09:04:13 PM »

I would love to hear them. How would a Brian Wilson produced Charles Manson sound?

Not to compare the vibe of the two artists at all in terms of actual content, but I'd image BW's Manson productions sound similar to the stuff he did for Stephen Kalinich. Stripped down lo-fi kinda thing with vague traces of a BW influence. Again, the vibes of the two singers in questions are TOTALLY different....Kalinich is an amazing, lovely person full of good vibes & I am being blatant in expressing this. Just think sonically these two projects could be in the same realm.....*could* is the the imperative word
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« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2012, 10:25:14 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1tmJeBlOXE&feature=relmfu

hate to bring this up and sorry if it already has, but there is a clip of Manson in thi spart here that say's it is produced by Dennis at Brother.
That doc is full of fake things.
Using footage of Dennis telling stories about Brian and via selective editing make it seem as if he was talking about Manson, anyone?
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« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2012, 10:41:15 PM »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1tmJeBlOXE&feature=relmfu

hate to bring this up and sorry if it already has, but there is a clip of Manson in thi spart here that say's it is produced by Dennis at Brother.
That doc is full of fake things.
Using footage of Dennis telling stories about Brian and via selective editing make it seem as if he was talking about Manson, anyone?

I emailed the guy with a list of the errors and creative editing. Not a peep.
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Stephen W. Desper
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« Reply #113 on: May 10, 2012, 08:09:35 PM »

"The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched."

Feel free to scratch away, AGD.  What do we know? 

Is it right that the Beach Boys who recorded Charlie were Brian and Carl, not Dennis. Right?

I wonder if those tapes were really destroyed, considering Mike mentioned to Tom Carson in Rolling Stone that they still had them.

COMMENT:  Answer to first question of: Is it right that the Beach Boys who recorded Charlie were Brian and Carl, not Dennis. Right?  Charlie was not recorded by any Beach Boys. A day or two before Charlie came to Brian's house studio, I received a call from management (i.e. Grillo) that a friend of Dennis' would be coming to the studio such-and-such a night for a recording session that Dennis wanted arranged for Charlie. It was to be a demo session of singing and guitar playing by this guy Charlie Manson. Dennis would not be there. Brian was out and Carl had no interest. It was Charles, myself and several tag-along girls. Actually there were several late-nite sessions until I finally refused to record him further. I can handle almost any artist's idiosyncrasies, of which Charlie had many, but it was the smell of this un-kept and un-washed human that I had to sit next to at the console that I could not or rather did not wish to endure any longer. Why the hell any girl would want to have sex with a person with BO is beyond me, but still there were three or four young ones waiting every night out in the studio to just get the chance; his so-called "family." Charles Manson was Dennis' Brother Records project. No other Beach Boy was interested. At the very least they agreed to give Dennis the studio for a couple of demo sessions -- and then the plan was to listen to what got recorded and see if Dennis' friend was worth a chance on the BRI label. I have often wondered how much my canceling of the demo sessions played in the subsequent unfoldment of events in the follow weeks, as Charles has said his motive for revenge was primed from his belief that his talents were not appreciated by the label -- although he was not that talented and certainly not ready for the recording scene ... as I reported back to management. But then, one can play the "what if" game about any event, and it proves nothing.

Answer to the second question of: I wonder if those tapes were really destroyed, considering Mike mentioned to Tom Carson in Rolling Stone that they still had them. To my knowledge they are still in the vault where I was told to place them the day the story broke of the Manson murders. However things in the vault seem to come and go. The person who would really know about the tapes is Alan Boyd. Suggest you ask him.

I will be glad to answer any other questions you may have. I'm not afraid to speak on this matter. I got along with Charlie from the start. I found his compelling nature an interesting study in human nature. People who exibit "animal magnetism" to such a high degree are a rare find. I was fasinated by this aspect of Manson. This along with his coercing use of half-truths, cleverly constructed to make his point seem logical was, to this engineer and scientist, a curiosity that made him an intriguing character.  I could see how his personality and speech might easily endure him to an uneducated young person. I think Brian, Carl and Mike saw right through Charlie's shroud of self-proclaimed truism, but also realized he was just a means by which Dennis could find easy sex with many young girls, and so indulged Dennis' use of the studio as a way of staying on his pimp's good side.


~swd
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« Reply #114 on: May 10, 2012, 09:07:01 PM »

fascinating  stuff... thanks Steve!

and Manson had body odor? shocking!  Grin
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« Reply #115 on: May 10, 2012, 11:19:49 PM »

Great read thank you! Is it true that Manson also used to nonchalantly pull out a knife during the sessions whilst speaking?
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MBE
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« Reply #116 on: May 11, 2012, 03:11:26 AM »

Thanks for clearing that up Stephen. It's great that someone who was actually there can clear up the stories for us.
Judging this purely before the murders, in 1968 how did the others react to "Never Learn Not To Love"? Considering they did it on television, and put it as a flip side, I assume they liked the song somewhat. I agree with what you once told me about the quality being down to what Dennis added to it. 
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« Reply #117 on: May 11, 2012, 07:05:34 AM »

My question is not what/why women would want to be with Manson, BO and all, but why Denny would want anything to do with those same women.  The guy had all kinds of cute girls at his finger tips all along.....what the hell did he see in that crowd?
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MBE
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« Reply #118 on: May 11, 2012, 10:05:59 PM »

My question is not what/why women would want to be with Manson, BO and all, but why Denny would want anything to do with those same women.  The guy had all kinds of cute girls at his finger tips all along.....what the hell did he see in that crowd?
Mike once said he thought Dennis was lonely after his first divorce so that's why having them live with him was initally appealing. I think even as late as 1968 the free love/open drug use was still a novelty to some extent. Plus the guy wrote songs that were kind of different. Myself I wouldn't want a girl that just slept with someone else, but not everyone has a problem with that.
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« Reply #119 on: May 12, 2012, 08:27:13 AM »

Great read thank you! Is it true that Manson also used to nonchalantly pull out a knife during the sessions whilst speaking?
COMMENT:  Yes. He liked to clean under his fingernails with the blade. It was a switchblade knife. Things like that don't bother me. I made it plain from the on-set that I was in charge of the recording session. When he pulled out his knife, I let him clean himself a few times and then ask Manson if I could see his knife and would he show me how it works -- which he did. Then I ask him again if I could hold the knife to see how the weight was. He did give me the knife and I balanced it on my finger to check the balance. We talked a little about balance and how it affected the toss of the knife. After that he put it in his pocked and got down to the business of recording. This knife nail cleaning habit is not unusual among some would-be tough guys. I saw it practiced while in High School as a student. If it was intended to impress or threaten me; it did not -- and Manson knew it by my at-ease with this practice. In fact, Manson displayed respect for me and told me so when he did not have a light for his cigarette. I went off leaving him along in the control room, to search in Brian's house for a match. When I returned with a book of matches, Charlie thought that was really something -- that I would make such an effort on his behalf. (Actually I just did not want him wondering around Brian and Marylin's house looking for a light.) At any event it did tend to make a positive impression in him.

Please keep in mind as you read all this, that it happened a couple of weeks BEFORE the "event."  So to me he was this creapy guy I was to record playing his Guitar and singing some original songs. I treated Charlie with the same respect as anyone recording in the studio, but he started out a little pushy, or maybe that's how it impressed me. In hind sight I'd say he just had a problem with authority.  At first it was, "I'm going to do this and you record me," whereas after the first playback it became more like, "what do I do now so you can make a better recording." That is, he realized that I was running the session, not him -- that he was out of his league in the studio environment and had best trust an expert if he wanted the end product to reflect his best side. Once that was established he did farily well as an artist and things moved along.

~swd   
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« Reply #120 on: May 12, 2012, 08:45:21 AM »

My question is not what/why women would want to be with Manson, BO and all, but why Denny would want anything to do with those same women.  The guy had all inds of cute girls at his finger tips all along.....what the hell did he see in that crowd?
COMMENT:  I cannot tell you what was in Dennis' mind, but I think you said it. The allure was in the "crowd."  The orgy aspect that was available to Dennis through Charles was a major difference from what Dennis had with most cute girls.  It was Manson that needed a bath, not the girls with him, and STD in those days could be treated overnight.   ~swd 
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« Reply #121 on: May 12, 2012, 09:00:43 AM »

Thank you so much, Mr. Desper, for sharing your thoughts on this period in Beach Boys history.  We on this board are honored that you visit and post your opinions, your experiences, and your insight.  Thank you.
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« Reply #122 on: May 12, 2012, 09:14:57 AM »

Thanks for clearing that up Stephen. It's great that someone who was actually there can clear up the stories for us.
Judging this purely before the murders, in 1968 how did the others react to "Never Learn Not To Love"? Considering they did it on television, and put it as a flip side, I assume they liked the song somewhat. I agree with what you once told me about the quality being down to what Dennis added to it. 
COMMENT: Dennis singing >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0v2bVX8j4. After all the stuff of value that Manson ripped off from Dennis, it was a fair trade for the outline of a song that Manson recorded at the Beach Boy's expense, in their studio. The Beach Boys spoke little about ownership of the song. Dennis took Manson's original concept and made something of it ... something Manson could never have done. If Manson had been a decent person, the Beach Boy organization would have given him credit and treasure, as they did with other writers. But Manson was a thief and did not play by civil rules. By those rules, he was compensated as far as they were concerned. ~swd   
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« Reply #123 on: May 12, 2012, 12:35:33 PM »

Thank you very much for the reply. It's great to hear from someone who has spent some time with Manson and can give accounts that actually humanise the guy.
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« Reply #124 on: May 12, 2012, 01:31:41 PM »

Thank you very much for the reply. It's great to hear from someone who has spent some time with Manson and can give accounts that actually humanise the guy.
COMMENT:  Charles Manson was differently human ... a little too human, that is, all the base or animal instincts were in full play; arrogance, self-involvment and importance, survival at any cost, conniving, sensuality, physical pleasure, unchecked emotions and revenge. Add to this mix LSD, Pot, Cocaine, and lots of beers and you get -- well, an out-of-control mess. A nonfunctional member of society and one certain to run up against the law.
He played to Dennis' base pleasures in order to achieve his own desires, but when it did not pan out as his fantasy plan said it would, hate and a loathing to get even took control ... and we all know the sorry rest of the story.
    ~swd
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