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you know for years i've been wondering the true story behind Dennis And Manson, i've seen the An American Family and Cease to Exist doc which i herd both were somewhat inaccurate, Some said the Carl met Charles and was scared of him and The Family went to Brian's house once and stole his stuff (both were scene In American Family), And also i herd Dennis beated the crap out of Manson in front of the family and the list goes on and on, What's the real truth, like a timeline of the Manson/Wilson story??

(http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w263/DAVIDBOW/SNN2014B-380_759696a-1.jpg)

BUMP

Maybe an English translation of the original post would help.

I always found it interesting that Manson is heavily featured in bios of Dennis Wilson and the Beach Boys, yet Dennis barely rates a page in Vincent Bugliosi's book on Manson.  I don't think he meant much to Manson, which was a good thing, because Manson never harmed him. 

If Dennis had testified at the trial, he might have had a bigger part in the book.
On the other hand, he had no known role in the crimes with which the defendents were charged or knowledge of the crimes and there probably was little reason for him to testify.

Since the "family" lived with/sponged off of him for a while he probably could have testifed about family dynamics and Manson's philosophies.  If he'd had important unique knowledge he would have been subpoenaed to appear.

^_^

Wasn't it VDP who told the story of Dennis beating the crao out of Manson when he threatened his step-son?

He said Manson was on the ground in a fetal position begging Dennis to stop.

That's in Keith Badman's book (dubious) which also quotes that VDP wasn't there but heard about it (dubious). I wish I knew more for sure because I know there was more of a connection between Manson and the Beach Boys than we will ever know about (possible) but I have been so f***ed up on this new "street" drug I've been buying called Placebo (fictitious) that I think I might slip into a coma.

He never physically harmed him, no. I'm sure Dennis had mental scars from that whole ordeal.

I agree.

 Ethan, The Gaines book Heroes and Villains goes into a bit, have you read it?
 I personally don't like hearing about it or reading about it. It's too disturbing for me.  I know enough to know I don't want to know anymore.

I'm curious to know what parts of the documentary Cease To Exist would be considered inaccurate. There is so much material freely available to read about these cases in books, online, documentaries, interviews, etc. and I'm always curious to hear more opinions.

The roles of some LA musicians do get downplayed in telling the Manson story through the years, for reasons obvious and not so obvious. In some cases, those who were involved in some way - not in the crimes but just involved with the Manson clan - do not want anything to do with revisiting that scene. In one case, a prominent musician was involved and got pretty messed up and freaked out by the whole thing, and it started when he innocently accepted a recommendation from Terry Melcher to go to Manson's place and work on music. By prominent I mean a name that wouldn't be household but that musicians and people who know the case and LA musicians would recognize. He may have been mentioned in Bugliosi's book, I can't remember.

One comment that stuck out in this thread was the one about Dennis not meaning much to Manson - I think quite the opposite is true, because Dennis was one of Manson's gateways to what he wanted, which was a music career. Dennis had the cache, Manson had the songs but no one in the business to introduce him to the inner circles which could get him some kind of a music deal. Dennis and Terry actually gave him a chance to record his songs, that was a valuable commodity to Manson. If anything, Manson was a user and manipulator of other people to get what he wanted, and if anything, Dennis, Terry, and anyone else involved in the real business of music would mean more than anyone Manson had on the ranch, and surely more than any of the girls following him. Or Bobby, or Tex, or anyone else following him: Manson didn't have friends in the same way most folks would have. If you don't trust anyone, you can't form a real friendship.

I don't think Manson's music career gave him anywhere near the thrill that commanding a bunch of people to murder on his behalf, not to mention becoming an international legend for doing that.  That's what Charles Manson was all about.  So, in that sense, Dennis was not that important to him.  He would have killed whether he met Dennis or not, and even getting a recording contract or having the Beach Boys record one of his songs wasn't as important to him.  He's a wacko, pure and simple.

The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched.

It is really hard to get people to talk about him who were around. There's still some sort of fear as well as the natural reaction of not wanting to remember such a horrid man. Let's just say they all knew him but as Dennis brought him around he suffered the worst for it. Dennis never really recovered mentally from the trauma and certainly it lost him a lot respect in the band. Had this not happened Dennis would have been given far more attention and respect by the others. He may have never developed the drug or drinking problems that came in the coming years. I would go so far as to say that Dennis may be here today had he not met Manson. I think he needlessly felt guilty and punished himself.  I'm speculating a lot here with all these "What If" scenarios, but Dennis' decline can be traced to this.

Michael Deasy - you remember right, he is mentioned. Apparently, he had a bum trip on Charlie's acid.

I wish someone would start scratching it...  Do you think this stuff will continue to be suppressed or possibly come out down the road?

One of the articles in Kingsley Abbott's collection "Back To The Beach", "Requiem For The Beach Boy" by David Leaf mentions Dennis telling him late at night "a little about his time with Charles Manson, and the fear he still lived with."

It's of my belief that had Dennis of testified in the Manson case, he wouldn't of died in 1983, someone would have gotten to him much sooner. Manson had a lot of followers, even when the main offenders had been arrested, chances are that there were others still out there during the Manson trial and with someone as high profile as Dennis there is only so much privacy that could have been given to the whole thing. I think Dennis was aware of this, which is also why he never mentioned the whole series of events much afterwards.

Re the Manson story and LA musicians, I think there is a lot that we are never going to hear, most of this stuff probably wouldn't get out during the lifetime of these Musicians, and they are the only people aside from Manson who know exactly what happened, it's a vicious cycle, however a totally understandable one.

I don't think Dennis was entirely to blame for "bringing him around."  Manson was interested in the music industry and would have tried to hang out there on the fringes with or without Dennis.  Neil Young remembered seeing Manson in clubs and the fact that some people thought he was cool, not just Dennis. I also think it's a stretch to blame Dennis' downfall on his association with Manson or guilt associated with it.  He was an alcoholic and a drug addict.  Brian never got involved with Manson and he had the same problems.  It was heredity and environment.

I don't like the idea of all the publicity and glorification that Manson has gotten.  Other people may feel the same way and that may be why no one wants to touch the story.  It just encourages future Mansons.  One was enough.  He has never had any socially redeeming values so the less attention the better.

Uh huh.  That's exactly how I feel.

Neil Young tried to get him signed to Warners. If folks such as Neil Young, Dennis Wilson and Terry Melcher felt Manson had musical talent, it is pretty likely that he did. That is an important part of the equation.

I'll say again I think Manson's interest in the music industry went beyond an interest and was more of a passion. But the man is a walking contradiction: One time he'll say the music industry was following *him*, and then other times he'll launch into a diatribe about being ripped off by music business folks including Dennis and Terry Melcher, and others including Neil Young go as far as to pin some of the blame for all that happened on Charlie Manson's anger about not getting what he thought he was due for his songs and music and feeling ripped off from things like the "Never Learn Not To Love" situation. The key phrase is "some" of the blame.

Neil Young mentions a few specifics in his book about Manson, check it out for the exact quotes but to sum up Neil was introduced to Manson through Dennis Wilson. When Neil went to Dennis' house to hang out, Charlie and the girls would be there, playing guitars and hanging out, so they got to know each other.

Neil said he and Dennis were ignored by Manson's girls: All they did was focus on Charlie. That puts a different spin on some of the stories.

Neil also says he mentioned Charlie and his music to Mo Ostin at Warner Brothers, praising his ability to make up songs on the spot, ad libbing lyrics and poetry as someone in the documentary also described. Ostin or Warner Brothers never followed up.

Neil's book mentioned an interview with Manson where he praised Neil for giving him a motorcycle. Hmm. :)

So there is one rock star who was involved with Manson somewhat indirectly but still involved who also suggests that Manson's anger at feeling ripped off and robbed by the music industry may have been a trigger which obviously led to things far more serious than being mad at the music business.

The book you are speaking of is a book about Neil Young by Jimmy McDonough, not "Neil's book".

I don't buy any of that.  Dennis Wilson was not to blame for anything Charles Manson did, and I don't think he should have or did feel that responsible for it.  If Manson's people were tooling around PCH they were obviously destined for LA/Hollywood, where Manson would have knocked on doors and tried to gain entry, somehow, to the music industry.  If he were that upset about Terry Melcher supposedly rejecting him, he undoubtedly would have found where Terry was living and murdered him, or perhaps murdered his famous mother.  He also knew where Dennis was, and while he allegedly had people go to his house and rearrange his furniture, he never harmed Dennis or his family.  The guy was insane.  He thought the Beatles commanded him to have a race war by writing the song 'Helter Skelter."  So he went out and slaughtered some random, well-off white people, or had a bunch of his followers do it for him.  Then, one of his followers was divinely inspired to try to kill Gerald Ford.  None of it makes sense, and it would have happened if Manson had met Dennis or not, or Neil Young, or the man on the moon.

Getting back to the original timeline question from the original post, it would be helpful because from the dates I can put together, the entire hurricane swept through from the time Charlie went from jail to Haight-Ashbury then to the LA area from spring 1967 to 1969, a relatively short time period of about two years.

Now consider this, for now leaving out some of the more scandalous rumors and stories that have floated around through the years about exactly what Manson was involved with:

This is a man who gets released from jail in early 1967 after spending about half of his life in jail for what would be called "crimes of stupidity", like car theft, pimping, passing bad or forged checks, all that stuff. The man was illiterate when he went to jail, not to suggest he wasn't intelligent but it's an important aspect to consider. When he was up for release, the story is that Manson did not want to leave, and was calling jail his home. He was a hustler, he was a con artist, he was an egomaniac, and he was persuasive.

But adding in some of the claims and stories which have not been discussed here, was he that capable of maintaining a cult of silence for decades while in prison? Was he that skilled in persuasion and manipulation that within two years after living a convict's life for most of his adult life, he was able to enter into the middle echelon of Hollywood's and the music business's more progressive living areas like Topanga Canyon and not only thrive on his own but develop relationships within those communities as someone who still depended on petty crimes for survival?

Or could it be a case of trying to scratch that surface even further by looking for the deeper connections of those involved with Manson and connected to Manson's dealings instead of relating everything to just the crimes and activities of Manson's followers? because several rumors and scandalous stories have some red flags that would suggest Charlie Manson did what he did and was prosecuted for it but may have also somehow tapped into some larger and more serious stuff...things that don't get discussed and that don't end happily.

And remember Bugliosi had to make a case that would guarantee a conviction, and persuade a jury just enough based on the strongest evidence he could enter in that courtroom. If he would have gotten deeper into more of Charlie's associations, the case would have spun out of control and I think he and the DA's office knew they had to paint a certain picture in order to convince those folks sitting on the jury. But the same rumors that various writers and conspiracy theorists may have seen decades later were surely being whispered at that time, too. Or maybe not - that's the thing with not getting straight answers.

 ::)

And the parts I cited were quotes from Neil, those sections that are in italics in between Jimmy's third-party writing.

So it's not "Neil's book" technically, who cares.

You're buying the myth sold by Bugliosi to a jury to win a case in which he had no physical DNA evidence on.
The reason the killings happened had nothing to do with "helter skelter", all that was pass-the-time drug theorising. The killings happened as the result of another crackpot scheme to get Bobby Beausoleil out of prison after his murder of Gary Hinman by committing copycat killings. By many accounts, Beausoleil was actually the most charismatic member of the Family, and the one many of the girls followed.

Bitch, don't roll your eyes at me, you don't impress me. If you corrected something I said, you would have come up with three huge boring corrective paragraphs about it.

Start your conflicts elsewhere, please. Thanks.

I didn't start anything, little man. Just do what I said, and watch how you talk to me, Uncle Remus. Patronise other people, not me. Not a request.

You want a conflict, you're not getting one. Just let it go.

Just do what I told ya, and go bother someone else. If ya rolled yer eyes at me in public, you wouldn't be doing it twice. Conduct yourself here the way you would be conducting yourself in public. Simple. Then there will be no problem.

Bobby Beausoleil himself had music industry connections.  He was in a pre-Love band with Arthur Lee and also a band with David LaFlamme before David formed the mega-selling hippy electric violin band It's A Beautiful Day.  Not to mention having some film roles.  So, I don't think it's as if Manson had no music industry  or show business aspirations prior to meeting Dennis Wilson and Dennis was the catalyst for all his murderous impulses.  And no, those insane mass murders are not entirely explained as copycat killings to get Bobby exonerated by pinning them on someone else.  They went way beyond the initial murder so they made pretty poor copycats.  Manson and his followers did it for the thrill.

When girls get together...

Dennis wasn't a drunk or drug addict in 1968. Brian was plenty involved with Manson as was Carl and Mike.

Yes, but Brian became a drunk and a drug addict himself, as well as Carl.  I don't think either of those two was connected to Manson enough that they would have felt any guilt about it.  The drinking and drugs came from a lot of other pressures.  I just don't buy that Dennis might still be alive or not have gotten as bad into booze or drugs had he not gotten involved with Charles Manson.  For one thing, he had the type of alcoholism that is inherited, in that he had a huge tolerance for it.  Both of his parents had signs of alcoholism so it just may have been his fate.

Consider treating people with more respect, that's the simple part. You don't control anyone or anything here, and you have no authority to tell anyone on this board what to do or how to act. You can try to push and bully and name-call people online all you want but it does not work with me, and threats don't work either. If you want to take the high ground and talk something out like actual people, let's go for it, I'm available. The threats, bullying, posturing, name calling, demands, all of that is kids' stuff. Let's not crowd this thread which was actually a pretty good one with a bunch of nonsense.  

Not entirely explained, no. And of course, those killings had a major amount of "thrill" in their execution. But that cockamamie "helter skelter" thing had very little to do with anything, and the Beach Boys thing didn't either. The reason the Polanski residence was chosen had much more to do with previous occurrences at that house that had nothing to do with Melcher. Susan Atkins had already been there with Anton LeVey.

I. Spaceman is our resident baby yes?  I love it when people try to act tough, but really just come off as childish.

Offering one simple correction WAS treating you with respect. Rolling your eyes at me for no reason whatsoever, not respect. Very simple, just admit it, then there is nothing more to talk about.

Amusing! For a newbie.

I shall refrain, because I know I'm just poking a balloon filled with sh*t with a stick; generally not a good idea.

The funny thing is that you think I am just saying things on the Internet, they way folks like you do, when I mean every single thing I say. If you want my home address, PM me. Then you can test your theory, man.
All I wanted to do was talk on topic, like everyone else.

If an eye-rolling smiley on a message board leads to calling someone "bitch", "Uncle Remus", "little man", and all the other crap that followed, the problem is not mine to address. And I'll say again the option is there to take the high road or keep stoking the fire until it gets out of hand. No one has the power or authority to demand anything from anyone here or pretty much anywhere else except in school and commerce where there are positions of authority in place, and the bullying pose isn't welcome.

You really think you're some kind of an opera star, now don't ya?

Guitarfool, I hope this makes you appreciate our discussions more!  :-D

For what it is worth, I apologise for my part in derailing this fine thread. Mine and Craig's problems with each other go back several years and several boards.

Everybody is a star. Treat others that way.

I don't roll my eyes at other people, Encyclopedia Brown! Hey, I'm sorry me and Jon Hunt booted you off our board!

"The surface of the true story of Manson, the BB and the LA music/movie scene hasn't even been scratched."

Feel free to scratch away, AGD.  What do we know? 

Is it right that the Beach Boys who recorded Charlie were Brian and Carl, not Dennis. Right?

I wonder if those tapes were really destroyed, considering Mike mentioned to Tom Carson in Rolling Stone that they still had them.

The fact that the Wilson brothers didn't get completely creeped out by Manson's insane-looking eyes and demeanor always made me wonder just how bad Murry Wilson really was.  I'm not sure anyone raised in even a semi-normal family would have any response but to run in the other direction.

I think he could be a very charming guy when he wanted to be, that is how he gained so many followers and Hollywood acquaintances. He didn't walk around looking like that cover of Life magazine. Brian was probably more intimidating.

Okay, interesting, never heard THAT before.  Do you know where this is documented?

You have to move on at some point. If you want to tell people you kicked me out of your Record Room, you're lying, and be sure to mention how you posted a comment that I should die, and before that posted something like f*** me and my mother after you know she died that same week I mailed you a stack of aircheck CDR's in 2006. Remember that - and remember that I sent a PM to moderator Joe in Australia asking to close my account on your board  a few days after the "die" response in a debate about "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", and I haven't posted or re-registered at your board since then.

There is crossing the line and there is crossing the line. Don't lie in public when you know the real story.

Tell the truth, don't rewrite history, and man up for your actions. And realize your words online have hurt people, upset people, and are out of line, and if that's the reputation you want to have and the bully image you want to hold onto, so be it.

Sorry, thanks...!  (reading these all out of order)

The McDonough book is a good one.

Neil is supposedly working on an autobiography too.

McDonough is a terrific writer, his Russ Meyer bio is unspeakably full of detail and flavor. I'd love to see what he or Tosches could do with a Beach Boys book. f*ck! They'd scratch the  hell out of the surface and gouge big holes in it. Has Tosches said much about them? For some reason I'm getting the feeling he wouldn't care for them too much and express it etched in acid.

I suppose it was a very different time.  Like the fact that Dennis picked those girls up as hitchhikers.  I remember seeing hitchhikers by the dozens lined up on the University Avenue bridge in Berkeley as late as the mid 1980's.  When I was a child in the early '70s, I saw those groups of hitchhikers for the first time on a drive with my family.  I was agog at all the "dirty hippies" lined up with their thumbs out, with signs with their destinations written on them (including New York City, LA, Reno, and other places), and people were pulling over and picking them up.  I'm sure most of the time, the hitchhikers didn't turn out to be criminals. 

I frequent several Manson boards and still shake my head in disbelief at how many people buy the Helter Skelter theory BS.
Anyone with an interest in the case needs to listen to Manson's interviews, because I think that he is telling the truth a lot more than people dare give him credit for. There are plenty of cryptic clues if you listen carefully.

Manson owed Bobby B a life debt(his own words). I've no idea what for , but at some point Bobby must have saved Charlie's butt from a nasty situation. So Charlie 'owed him one.'

Tex Watson owed Charlie a life debt (for saving his butt and sorting out his mess from the Lottsapoppa situation). So Watson owed a man a favour who owed another man a favour. In essence Charlie told Tex " you repay me by repaying what I owe Bobby." Cue grisly copycat killings via botched drug burns and home robberies.

Tex told Manson he was going to kill some people. Manson replied "Don't tell me I don't want to know, I ain't going back to thepen!"

Manson manipulated a situation with a drugged up maniac, perhaps (or perhaps not) underestimating just how far off the deep end Watson was prepared to go. What he DID NOT DO was brainwash a bunch of hippies to kill random people to start a race war. That's pure fantasy.

Maybe Chuckles lends some credibility to the race war theory by having a swastika permanently carved on his forehead?

"I frequent several Manson boards"

Do we have to worry about you, dad?

Trust me when I say there seem to be more wacos around here as of late there there are on the Manson blogs.

Come on kids! Let's be polite and sensible when we're discussing mass murderers and drug addicts!

I'll never forget meeting an old retired LAPD detective who told me the real roots of the Manson murders lie somewhere buried in the case files of the original investigation, well before Manson's name had ever come up. He also said a couple of the Manson girls had been whipped and beat up pretty badly a lot earlier at the Tate house (after being picked up hitchhiking) at some S&M party and there was payback for that to be had for that.

alright.

"Trust me when I say there seem to be more wacos around here as of late there there are on the Manson blogs."

I'm with you, Rocky.

WTF?

LOL!

People just don't know.  Thank the Lord they don't sit on the California parole board.  Some of us are old enough to remember the case when it happened, and saw those photos of the Tate crime scene with "Pig" written in blood, and the story of how she had the baby cut out of her stomach.  It was the most horrifying thing I was aware of as a young child besides the Kennedys, MLK, and the Vietnam War. Of course, Charlie wasn't at the crime scene, so people don't think he was responsible.  I don't get the attraction some (mostly) young (mostly) male people have for Charles Manson.  I don't think he deserves any glory and his songs are not that good.

 I have a problem with any guy with a swastika permanently carved in the middle of his forehead, just in and of itself.  It's kind of a deal-breaker for me.

alright.

Seems to me that there's a fortune to be made by somebody like AGD who seems to know so much, that we don't, about the Manson saga.  It's not like all the JFK papers that are still far from being released.

Not the images, the reality. It happened.  It wasn't a made-for-TV movie.   I didn't need the media to tell me it's not cool to cut out a nearly-born fetus from a pregnant woman who begged for her life and was terrorized, along with several other people who were terrorized and murdered in cold blood.

I confess, I don't think I'd be interested in the songwriting talents of Jeff Dahmer or John Wayne Gacy, either.  Or think it was a great idea to release their songs or have someone like Axl Rose do cover versions, even if they were totally biatchin' tunes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEvaQWGySjk

In the interests of fairness, Charles Manson in his own written words, on why he carved a swastika on his forehead.  It seems he somehow connects it to Native Americans, yet confesses at the end he was personally rather saddened that the Germans were defeated during World War II:

http://www.murderauction.com/CHARLES-MANSON-SUPERB-6-PAGE-LETTER-REGARDING-THE-ORIGIN-OF-HIS-SWASTIKA-TATTOO--AND-MORE,name,220779,auction_id,auction_details

alright.

alright.

Ha they were destroyed at the same time as the fire tapes lol

No arguing with some people, I guess.  Manson never killed anyone directly, so that makes it not quite so bad.  Got it.  He just had these really creepy, murderous friends who got him in trou-ble and referred to him as The Wizard, but he was just a petty car thief, he never asked anyone to kill anybody.  He did have a silver tongue in explaining himself, and his type tends to get plenty of women writing into him in prison and proposing marriage.  I'm sure that's what impressed Dennis Wilson the most, the fact he was such a charismatic ladies' man, sort of a hippie Hugh Hefner.

"brilliant songwriter" ?  To each his own I suppose.  I listen to some of his stuff, but Brilliant Songwriter is a bit much.  "Media Propaganda"?  Are you serious? 

Yup, they're called "opinions" and much like assholes, everybody has one, and they're all different. You need pictures to understand that, or what?

Possibly.  I'm sure to Dennis a lot of what was going on was attractive... maybe even some of the illegal stuff... but that was before people got killed.  It's one thing to kind of live outside society, and that can be really attractive, but when you start harming other people (or likely talking about harming other people) I imagine that wasn't a trip Dennis had signed up for, and that's when he started withdrawing from them.  

That's also the same line MOST sane people draw, lol, young posters on this board excluded.  

Why don't you go work as hard defending someone who's actually a victim, as you do defending a fucking sociopath?

If you read my posts in this thread, you'll see the only person I have defended is somebody who's opinion you've talked down on because it's different than the one you hold.

Yeah, Manson is a monster. But no, he didn't actually kill anybody, and in a world where people listen to Ke$ha and Lady Gaga, it's not unfathomable to think he has some songwriting talents.

Different strokes, right?

He said he was a "brilliant songwriter".  

I said "to each his own", but in my opinion he's not.

You jumped all over me.  

So opinions are like assholes, unless it's MY opinion that his songs aren't that great, eh?  

Like I said: instead of defending Manson's songwriting ability, go defend somebody who actually deserves it.  

Was also the part about "media propaganda are you serious?"

Wake up and read the media, Ron. It's full of propaganda and bias. They have a horrible habit of filling in the blanks with opinions being construed as facts.  But that does not take away from the horribleness of the crimes committed.

Me no likey this line about "he never killed anybody," which seems to be something various posters are saying, but I guess to each her or his own.  You can say the same thing about Hitler, and apparently Manson admired him, or he wouldn't have written a letter in prison saying that the Germans in World War II were just trying to "improve the earth," as he put it.  By killing several million Jewish people and other ethnic groups.  Then someone brought up Bush/Cheney and Iraq/Afghanistan, but then you'd really need to bring up Nixon, Kennedy and Johnson (Vietnam), etc.  So here's the current line: Manson, not as bad as several American presidents, and he never laid a finger on anyone directly, unlike Dahmer, Gacy, or Phil Spector, so he's really not such an unswell guy.

I've read Manson is the most popular prison inmate in the American penal system.  He gets 60,000 letters a year, with several that include requests to join his Family.  Charles Manson, America's father figure.

alright.

When I read the words "brilliant songwriter", I think of Brian Wilson, Dylan, the Beatles, etc.  I don't think of CM, not in a million billion years.

The previous poster (DonnyL) didn't support his opinion, so maybe he was just having a go at us?

But, as Ron said, to each his own.  And if DonnyL wants to put some of CM's songs to music, I bet they will be way better than what Charlie ever wrote.

Regardless, Manson DID tie up the La Biancas and leave them for his kids to kill. All the same as killing them himself, as far as I'm concerned.

alright.

Two words:

Shorty Shea

That is all...

alright.

Wow i come back to this and there is arguing and about 4 pages, LOL WTH?!

LIE is actually a pretty good album. The songs do possess a certain goofy, sitting around the campfire sing-a-long charm.

alright.

Manson gave some my school mates their first dope, shared some Lucky Lager, and showed them some naked college girls in our hometown on the California North Coast around 1967 before he got busted and moved the gang back south.  Some local townspeople, let's call them, burned down the abandoned farmhouse they were squatting in. But then again we had Reverend Jim Jones teaching in our elementary school for a few years in that same period of time, so what's one more sociopath among many.  Toss in a handful of serial killers and child molesters who passed through in the 80's and I can make a case for a county wax museum.  I think Dennis was scarred by the experience, who wouldn't be, but not sure it added all that much to his later problems., except perhaps making him less trusting (or maybe even too trusting, looking for anything or anyone to take the place of those awful months).  It's very hard to tell if Dennis was as tough as some of the talk and history made him seem to be, or, and this is based on some of his own public musings and certainly his music, a much more thoughtful, introspective, caring, I can't find the right words here, person. Maybe both.  He was after all, one of us humans.  I do remember a quote attributed to him, when he was supposedly accused of "profiting" from the notoriety of it all, when he angrily shouted out something to the effect "these beautiful girls got their (breasts) cut off and I'm somehow profiting from all this?"  I would not have wanted to be the person who asked a question like that directly to him.

Of course the media is full of propaganda and bias, but again:

WHY IS YOUR INDIGNATION IN DEFENSE OF A SOCIOPATH.

If you want to bitch about the media, there's plenty of innocent people to defend, not Charles Manson. 

My opinion is that yes it's a decent album.  "Brilliant Songwriter" ?  Come on. 

There you go again.

"That's really your opinion?"

Oh, Lord. What a perfect sentiment. I choose to believe this.

Anyone who wanted to go down that road would be opening themselves up to a landslide of defamation lawsuits, even if what they wrote was entirely truthful.

There's a book "Charles Manson in His Own Words" where he talks at some length about all his contacts in music and film industry. Only three people are named by names, and all three are talked about at some length. Dennis, Terry Melcher, Greg Jakobson. No mention of Neil Young, or Brian, or Carl.

Manson's called the book a fake.  I like Never Learn Not To Love and his Cease To Exist version. I think he had talent but I never felt compelled to buy his work. Bad Karma surrounds him that's for certain. Mike talked about meeting him on Howard Stern back in 1992 or so but just said the girls around him were not to his taste! Brian and Carl allegedly did record him, and he was at Brian's home several times. The TV movies have Brian hiding but they met as Brian would have no reason to have hid in 1968. He had power over people and used it for evil. He's not the first and won't be the last. What was bad about it apart from the horrid murders (I don't think anyone would say they weren't horrid) was that people felt less safe and that the countercultre so to speak was tainted.

No, they weren't.

Desper told me he put them in a vault where they remain.

I would love to hear them. How would a Brian Wilson produced Charles Manson sound?

I think either that book or Bugliosi's mentions that he indeed had a recording session at their home studio. But, as certain people are mentioned and others are not, that may be an indication of sorts where his priorities / expectations were. Like, he expected some break from Melcher / Jacobson / movie people, but there's no indication that Brian promised him anything or gave hopes.

"Yes, but Brian became a drunk and a drug addict himself, as well as Carl."

I Never knew Carl was an addict, yea in the 70s but not in the mid sixties, why do people document that Dennis was a drug addict then and not Carl?

Besides I don't think of Brian or Dennis as having a particularly bad drug problem until Murry died or maybe in Brian's case 1972.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1tmJeBlOXE&feature=relmfu

hate to bring this up and sorry if it already has, but there is a clip of Manson in thi spart here that say's it is produced by Dennis at Brother.

That doc is full of fake things.

Yeah I thought so! I really hate to even bring the sh*t up.

Not to compare the vibe of the two artists at all in terms of actual content, but I'd image BW's Manson productions sound similar to the stuff he did for Stephen Kalinich. Stripped down lo-fi kinda thing with vague traces of a BW influence. Again, the vibes of the two singers in questions are TOTALLY different....Kalinich is an amazing, lovely person full of good vibes & I am being blatant in expressing this. Just think sonically these two projects could be in the same realm.....*could* is the the imperative word

Using footage of Dennis telling stories about Brian and via selective editing make it seem as if he was talking about Manson, anyone?

I emailed the guy with a list of the errors and creative editing. Not a peep.

COMMENT:  Answer to first question of: Is it right that the Beach Boys who recorded Charlie were Brian and Carl, not Dennis. Right?  Charlie was not recorded by any Beach Boys. A day or two before Charlie came to Brian's house studio, I received a call from management (i.e. Grillo) that a friend of Dennis' would be coming to the studio such-and-such a night for a recording session that Dennis wanted arranged for Charlie. It was to be a demo session of singing and guitar playing by this guy Charlie Manson. Dennis would not be there. Brian was out and Carl had no interest. It was Charles, myself and several tag-along girls. Actually there were several late-nite sessions until I finally refused to record him further. I can handle almost any artist's idiosyncrasies, of which Charlie had many, but it was the smell of this un-kept and un-washed human that I had to sit next to at the console that I could not or rather did not wish to endure any longer. Why the hell any girl would want to have sex with a person with BO is beyond me, but still there were three or four young ones waiting every night out in the studio to just get the chance; his so-called "family." Charles Manson was Dennis' Brother Records project. No other Beach Boy was interested. At the very least they agreed to give Dennis the studio for a couple of demo sessions -- and then the plan was to listen to what got recorded and see if Dennis' friend was worth a chance on the BRI label. I have often wondered how much my canceling of the demo sessions played in the subsequent unfoldment of events in the follow weeks, as Charles has said his motive for revenge was primed from his belief that his talents were not appreciated by the label -- although he was not that talented and certainly not ready for the recording scene ... as I reported back to management. But then, one can play the "what if" game about any event, and it proves nothing.

Answer to the second question of: I wonder if those tapes were really destroyed, considering Mike mentioned to Tom Carson in Rolling Stone that they still had them. To my knowledge they are still in the vault where I was told to place them the day the story broke of the Manson murders. However things in the vault seem to come and go. The person who would really know about the tapes is Alan Boyd. Suggest you ask him.

I will be glad to answer any other questions you may have. I'm not afraid to speak on this matter. I got along with Charlie from the start. I found his compelling nature an interesting study in human nature. People who exibit "animal magnetism" to such a high degree are a rare find. I was fasinated by this aspect of Manson. This along with his coercing use of half-truths, cleverly constructed to make his point seem logical was, to this engineer and scientist, a curiosity that made him an intriguing character.  I could see how his personality and speech might easily endure him to an uneducated young person. I think Brian, Carl and Mike saw right through Charlie's shroud of self-proclaimed truism, but also realized he was just a means by which Dennis could find easy sex with many young girls, and so indulged Dennis' use of the studio as a way of staying on his pimp's good side.

~swd

fascinating  stuff... thanks Steve!

and Manson had body odor? shocking!  ;D

Great read thank you! Is it true that Manson also used to nonchalantly pull out a knife during the sessions whilst speaking?

Thanks for clearing that up Stephen. It's great that someone who was actually there can clear up the stories for us.
Judging this purely before the murders, in 1968 how did the others react to "Never Learn Not To Love"? Considering they did it on television, and put it as a flip side, I assume they liked the song somewhat. I agree with what you once told me about the quality being down to what Dennis added to it. 

My question is not what/why women would want to be with Manson, BO and all, but why Denny would want anything to do with those same women.  The guy had all kinds of cute girls at his finger tips all along.....what the hell did he see in that crowd?

Mike once said he thought Dennis was lonely after his first divorce so that's why having them live with him was initally appealing. I think even as late as 1968 the free love/open drug use was still a novelty to some extent. Plus the guy wrote songs that were kind of different. Myself I wouldn't want a girl that just slept with someone else, but not everyone has a problem with that.

COMMENT:  Yes. He liked to clean under his fingernails with the blade. It was a switchblade knife. Things like that don't bother me. I made it plain from the on-set that I was in charge of the recording session. When he pulled out his knife, I let him clean himself a few times and then ask Manson if I could see his knife and would he show me how it works -- which he did. Then I ask him again if I could hold the knife to see how the weight was. He did give me the knife and I balanced it on my finger to check the balance. We talked a little about balance and how it affected the toss of the knife. After that he put it in his pocked and got down to the business of recording. This knife nail cleaning habit is not unusual among some would-be tough guys. I saw it practiced while in High School as a student. If it was intended to impress or threaten me; it did not -- and Manson knew it by my at-ease with this practice. In fact, Manson displayed respect for me and told me so when he did not have a light for his cigarette. I went off leaving him along in the control room, to search in Brian's house for a match. When I returned with a book of matches, Charlie thought that was really something -- that I would make such an effort on his behalf. (Actually I just did not want him wondering around Brian and Marylin's house looking for a light.) At any event it did tend to make a positive impression in him.

Please keep in mind as you read all this, that it happened a couple of weeks BEFORE the "event."  So to me he was this creapy guy I was to record playing his Guitar and singing some original songs. I treated Charlie with the same respect as anyone recording in the studio, but he started out a little pushy, or maybe that's how it impressed me. In hind sight I'd say he just had a problem with authority.  At first it was, "I'm going to do this and you record me," whereas after the first playback it became more like, "what do I do now so you can make a better recording." That is, he realized that I was running the session, not him -- that he was out of his league in the studio environment and had best trust an expert if he wanted the end product to reflect his best side. Once that was established he did farily well as an artist and things moved along.
~swd   

COMMENT:  I cannot tell you what was in Dennis' mind, but I think you said it. The allure was in the "crowd."  The orgy aspect that was available to Dennis through Charles was a major difference from what Dennis had with most cute girls.  It was Manson that needed a bath, not the girls with him, and STD in those days could be treated overnight.   ~swd 

Thank you so much, Mr. Desper, for sharing your thoughts on this period in Beach Boys history.  We on this board are honored that you visit and post your opinions, your experiences, and your insight.  Thank you.

COMMENT: Dennis singing >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I0v2bVX8j4. After all the stuff of value that Manson ripped off from Dennis, it was a fair trade for the outline of a song that Manson recorded at the Beach Boy's expense, in their studio. The Beach Boys spoke little about ownership of the song. Dennis took Manson's original concept and made something of it ... something Manson could never have done. If Manson had been a decent person, the Beach Boy organization would have given him credit and treasure, as they did with other writers. But Manson was a thief and did not play by civil rules. By those rules, he was compensated as far as they were concerned. ~swd   

Thank you very much for the reply. It's great to hear from someone who has spent some time with Manson and can give accounts that actually humanise the guy.

COMMENT:  Charles Manson was differently human ... a little too human, that is, all the base or animal instincts were in full play; arrogance, self-involvment and importance, survival at any cost, conniving, sensuality, physical pleasure, unchecked emotions and revenge. Add to this mix LSD, Pot, Cocaine, and lots of beers and you get -- well, an out-of-control mess. A nonfunctional member of society and one certain to run up against the law.
He played to Dennis' base pleasures in order to achieve his own desires, but when it did not pan out as his fantasy plan said it would, hate and a loathing to get even took control ... and we all know the sorry rest of the story.     ~swd

Thanxx Paul

Stephen, how scared was Terry Melcher?

COMMENT: I have no idea. ~swd

Steven -
       First, I would like to say that I'm extremely grateful to see that you take the time to read/post things on this board. I have always found the Dennis/Manson connection to be fascinating. I have just one question; in that "Cease To Exist" documentary (I know it's riddled with fallacies), they said that Dennis woke up one night to find Manson's "creepy-crawlers" in his bedroom holding knives. Is it true that Dennis and Terry fled to an isolated cabin in Lake Arrowhead for some time?

Stephen*

So the spurned wizard had total control of his "children" so much so that he was able to get them to slaughter people for revenge. Man he sure must have been pissed. And then bond the deed with an idea of trying to start a race war. Massive regular doses of LSD. Their brains were mush.

That is just the myth that the DA invented and the media ran with it. The more likely reasons for why they killed those nine people are much more mundane but no less sickening.

COMMENT:  I am NOT an expert on the Dennis/Manson matter. All I know is what happened in the studio at those few evening demo sessions with Charlie. I do recall being told that Dennis was laying low for a while, but that's about it.  Never heard any talk around the studio of "creepy-crawlers" in Dennis' bedroom. But if such a thing would have taken place, I would think that everyone would be placed under police protection at that point. Dennis could easily have gone to a cabin, or flown to NYC or Canada if he really wanted to lay low. I doubt if Manson had a passport or the means to fly anywhere. Besides he would need to take a three-hour bath just to get onto an airplane. I don't know where you live, but lake Arrowhead is really not very isolated -- it's a resort area and the location of most noteworthy residences is known by tour map. If I wanted to be safe, I would not isolate myself in a secluded cabin away from the police. I would go to an upscale celebrity vacation place with lots of security designed to keep the paparazzi out and the guests safe from the general public. But I really do not know where Dennis went. ~swd

Great stories Steve, I like how you drive home the point of how bad Manson smelled.  8)

Good studio stuff, for sure; but Lake Arrowhead hasn't always been a security stronghold, and in the mid 60's was nothing of the sort, not even starting to become what iitt is today until the mid to late 1970's.
But what do kids know?

Steve, I just wanted to say thank you so much for speaking openly about the brief time you spent with Manson in the recording studio. Obviously this is a supremely touchy subject, and I for one really appreciate your candor as so many of those who encountered him are (understandably) remiss to share these experiences. I really do appreciate your courage in speaking out, as I think it does a lot towards lessening the aura of mystery surrounding Charles Manson that has led to the cult of personality that exits todays.

I was just curious if you were willing to speak more towards what, in your opinion, was the distinctive part of his personality that made the girls you saw want to associate themselves with such a character. Did you get the impression that (as has been portrayed in so many books) they were naive waifs that could have been easily misled by anyone who had half a mind to lead them, or were there a certain personality traits he possessed that seemed unique to you? I would also be interested if you can recall any conversations outside of the knife incident. In the tapes I've heard (not BRI sessions) he can be overheard talking off the cuff about religion, government and his general philosophies. Did he impart anything like this to you that you can recall?

Also, anything you remember about the girls in general would be interesting. Had you ever met any of them before or since?

Thank you so much, Steve! I feel like you are a living link to history, and you are doing an important thing by setting the record straight, and helping to detoxify the sea of misinformation that surrounds this case. 

Manson had a knack of honing in on girls with a "daddy complex". Being a decade+ older than most of them, he would act as a surrogate father figure to them. Plus bad B.O. not withstanding, he was a fairly good looking guy back in the sixties. And let's face it, many women go for the 'bad boy' type.

The '60s were a weird, weird time, especially in California.  I watched a documentary about the Summer of Love and have read other sources and it was like a mass madness.  Hundreds of thousands of kids ran away from home and "crashed" in the Haight Ashbury district of San Francisco in 1967, where there were tons of drugs and stores that gave away used clothing and other junk for free.  Some of the kids who came out to SF were as young as 13 or 14 years old.  Many of those people did not bathe often.  Between the fact that many were homeless or on drugs or mentally ill in some cases, cleanliness was not a priority. If Manson didn't bathe, he fit right in. He recruited many of his followers from San Francisco before moving on to LA.  I'm sure he didn't seem that odd at the time and was just another Pied Piper that drew a lot of lonely, vulnerable young girls in the hippie scene.  The hippie movement, like a lot of other social movements, tended to be male-oriented (if nothing else, because it's just safer for guys to go out in the world and do that kind of thing).  I'm sure the girls on the streets who were drawn to him saw Charlie as some kind of beneficent protector who made them feel pretty and special.  And he didn't smell that much worse than a lot of other dudes camping out for months in Golden Gate Park.

Very interesting info, thank you for sharing it!  Did Brian, Carl, or Mike ever express any opinions of the stuff Manson put to tape?

And do you remember what you tried to make him sound better after he realized he had no idea how to function in a studio and deferred to you?


Sorry to go all Tape Op on you suddenly, but this is absolutely fascinating and more than a bit surreal.

COMMENT:  Myself, as most of you reading this, take a shower every day or so, and if it's hot like here in Florida I might take two showers a day to overcome the extra sweat from all the humidity.  In Californa I took a shower every day, like most people. Now I understand that Charlie was not living in a house, but he was living somewhere. He was not a street person. So if he knew that he was going to a recording session in Brian Wilson's home, you would think he might make the effort to get himself cleaned up --- somehow. But day after day he showed up smelly. He could have, at least, stood under a garden hose and not been so rude as to present his personal body with BO. ~swd

 :lol I love it. Thanks so much for your insights, Mr. Desper.

COMMENT: I don't think you understood my comment. I said that Dennis would have been better off by going to a celebrity resort area, not the open town that was Lake Arrowhead.  I have vacationed at Lake Arrowhead many times in the early 60's. Where people lived was not a secret. The local Real Estate office had listings of where people had cabins. It would have been easy to find him there, once you figured out that was where he was.  BUT I don't know if he went to the lake or not. I did not and still do not know where Dennis went during that time. ~swd

COMMENT:  I recorded Charles Manson playing several songs during the course of a few days. Those tapes were placed on the tape shelf located under the monitors. During the next few weeks and to my knowledge no one ever requested to hear them. They ask me what I thought of him as a potential talent for the label, but then time ran out. That is to say, before the tapes were ever reviewed by anyone, the murders happened and the tapes were locked away. Even Dennis never ask about the tapes only to inquire if he showed up for the sessions. Dennis wanted to be certain that his friend had been able to make the demo recordings, which was what he told Charlie he would arrange for him.

You see, Manson was very unaware of how these things work. He thought that he would record the demo, then the next day everyone would listen and a contract would be pushed under his nose. In practice, these things may take months to pan out. Undoubtedly Dennis and Charlie talked, but their understandings mean nothing in the music business. They were both lawyers & contracts away from anything meaningful.

From the start Charlie had little patience in the studio. So from what I observed, I would guess his patience ran out much sooner than then norm. However, in hindsight, I must comment that his impatience is a behavior pattern observed by healthy people of another person who is on crack. Was it around then? I don't know. But in hindsight, maybe he was on some form of early crack and I was naive enough to not know about it or recognise its symptoms.

In my discussions with him, one underlaying view he had was of a world small and simple. Black and white; no gradations. No curves; only straight lines. His arguments were crazy-talk. I thought he was psychotic or the least chronic paranoia, another drug symptom. But the guy could play the guitar with feeling. He had good songs, but his performance of them would be best handled by a seasoned artist.

If Manson would have exhibited more patience with the situation, eventually someone would hear the demo and make a judgement. Maybe they would buy a song or two. Who knows.

His drug-enhanced impatience was the core direction, a platform upon which he built all his arguments he thought justified any future actions he might take. Let he who builds upon sand, beware.  ~swd

Very interesting again Stephen.

l
COMMENT: From my perspective, here was a single artist playing a single instrument, and I had eight tracks to capture whatever I wanted. So of course, record the guitar in stereo and the vocal with two mics. That's four tracks. I could have the artist add a bass or overdub. That never happended.  But anyway... Charlie's envision of recording was him in front of a mic. When confronted with four microphones and baffles, he was overwhelmed. He had to sit, or try to stay somewhat in the center between the two mics. His vocal screen had two mics behind it, each with their own track. This would give me two different microphone signatures to blend for a final sound. I was in and out of the studio making adjustments and complaining to him to sit still. He was constantly standing up and being fidgety. I would just get it all adjusted and he would move out of his seat. Finally I told him that if he wanted a successful demo recording he was going to need to settle down and listen to me. I was on his side. Just follow my instructions and play real good. The rest, I'll take care of and make him sound great. Give me your best, and I'll give you mine. So after a while he settled into the whole recording scene and we did get some good tracks.  ~swd

Fascinating!

Stephen-
What songs ended up sounding the best?

COMMENT:  I have no recollecting of the music. Only dealing with him. ~swd

Selective memories; yes , we all have those sometimes.
Perhaps you could do some hypnosis to recall more?

COMMENT:
No it's not selecive anything!  The man left more of an impression on me than his music.  I had to listen to him over and over. I heard his songs once or twice.

I don't want to recall more. If I was going to use hypnosis it would be to forget the entire incident.

~swd 

I've read a Talking Heads book this week, and there's a story how Andy Kaufman (must be the man behind the LIE album) heard a commotion in the deep of the night in his yard. He had powerful lights there and switched them on. The yard was full of Mansonites dressed in black doing their "creepy-crawl" with knives between the teeth. Some other guy from the household blasteda warning shot  from a shotgun, and they scattered with the cries, "Charlie told us to get the music back!" - they came for the tapes.

That'd be Phil Kaufman. 

That is interesting that you recorded the vocal with two mics.  Was this something that was often done for sessions with The Beach Boys as well?  I had never really considered that one might record a single vocal with more than one mic...for instance how is it ensured that both mics are sufficiently on axis with the singer?  And would there also be concerns of phasing issues when combining the two signals together?  I'd love to hear more about this Stephen.

COMMENT: I've produced numerous demo sessions, of which this friend of Dennis' was one of many. I was given to believe that this session was mealy exploratory, to see if the man was artistic enough to sign, to see how good his songs were, to get an idea of his strengths and weakness’ with respect to the recording process. I could have easily put up two mics, vocal and guitar, done a quick session and gone home early. But that's not my nature and not what Dennis ask for. He wanted a good sounding demo that he could use to “sell” his friend to the BRI label. That is, he would need the OK of the other guys to plow money into any pending artist their label might consider signing. So a good demo was requested. After I started working with Charlie I can see why Dennis wanted me to produce the demo and not he himself.

In planning out the tracking, I did not know if this artist would be adding a bass line to his guitar, or even if he could play a decent bass. He said he could play any instrument, which means nothing. Maybe he would want to add some harmony line or double his vocal. So my thinking was to record the guitar in relative close stereo, then if in the future I needed to loose one of the stereo tracks of the primary guitar, I could. So I set up two condenser cardioid's about two-feet apart and two-feet or so from the sound hole. Not a great spread, but enough to give spatial separation between a mono-centered vocal and the stereo instrument. Since I did not know from the onset how far this demo might go, I did not know what type of vocal sound the voice might require as various sounds were added to the demo. As it turned out, Charlie was this guy who had no experience recording. He was just a good guitar player with a somewhat commercial voice. This was a guy who had sat around and played songs on his guitar as he sang and entertained girls with his talents. His songs were good and the lyrics were provocative. Dennis recognized this and sought to give it a go, but it all starts with a demo.

As I said in other posts, Charlie arrived with several girls in tow and he brought his own guitar. I confined the girls to the studio. I did not want them, their smoking and talking in the small control room of Brian's studio. As it turned out, Charles told the girls to keep quiet, no talking or whispering, and they did do just that. I think they were all stoned anyway as they just sat there on the floor of the studio leaning against the rear wall in a daze. I ask them not to smoke except on breaks that would be taken outside. Charlie smoked in the control room, but on the couple of breaks he and his girls went out into the back parking area, behind the house, to smoke. I don't know what they smoked out back, as I played with my Dalmatian in another part of the yard during these breaks. However, I only saw Charlie smoke tobacco in the studio -- no weed.  I don't know what this has to do with your question -- I'm just rambling . . .

Everything was setup when he and his girls arrived. Two Neumann KM-84 cardioid condenser microphones  (See in use at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugoS5gfOaCw where the KM184 is heard but same acoustics as KM84 without the bump at 9k. Picture about two feet apart) were ready to be positioned in front of his guitar, mounted on two small booms. These were inputted into two low-noise outboard vacuum tube mic-pres to get the phantom power needed by these microphones and the best sound. As usual, these were plugged directly into the 3M multi-track and not through the console for a cleaner sound. No need for EQ or limiting since the mics were a distance from the instrument and sound just fine without any tonal manipulation. Limiting is only necessary for close miking of percussive instruments. I put baffles (live reflectors) four feet behind the guitar for a little acoustic clue.

Charlie showed up with his rather beat up guitar. Rather than putts around trying to get a reasonably passable sound from this Sears quality six-string I went back into the storage room and brought back a Martin D-28 from the fifties (see demo of a Martin D-28 >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLD-tLW9w0M&feature=related).  I knew I could improve on his guitar’s sound and thought he might play better with the D-28 in his hands. He knew what I’d handed him and quickly took it.

It is not unusual to use two or three vocal microphones for first-time recording of a vocalist to determine what mic or combination of mics sounds best. As long as the mics are clustered close together – or even touching – and their diaphragms are on the same physical plane, there will be no phasing problems. This is because the wavelength of the human voice is much longer than any spacing between the microphones diaphragms. Both mics were positioned several inches behind the blast filter. The Neumann U67 tube condenser was set on figure-eight pattern and hung down from a large boom. This vocal mic’s figure-eight pattern allowed for more separation between the vocal and guitar because the guitar was propagating more into the dead lobs of the figure-eight while the singer was directly in front of the pattern. Under it was a Shure SM-58 dynamic mounted on a smaller boom. This mic has a cardioid pattern and also served to give better isolation from the guitar. Each microphone was sent to a separate track and each had its own limiter . . .  only used to prevent extreme peaks from overloading the tape, otherwise I prefer to manually ride gain. It sounds more natural to me. The Neumann gives a very clean and clear vocal sound that blends well into most mixes. The Shure gives a more commercial sound that cuts through excessive mid-range frequency buildup that comes from using many instruments in the vocal range. A combination of the two usually will solve any vocal problems. In Charlie’s case, I did not know what he was going to do or what he was going to add, so I did not blend the two mics but kept them on separate tracks that could be combined later onto a single track, if needed. As it turned out Charlie was not comfortable doubling his voice. He had never done it before and this was no time to learn. We never got around to adding much of anything other than the basic guitar and vocal.

So Charles was given every chance to make a good demo. He was in a proper studio, surrounded with the very best of microphones and recording equipment, run by a good engineer, and provided a first-rate instrument for as long as he wanted to take. His demo went OK and was waiting for the demo-tape-audition-listening-time to be arranged, as everyone’s schedule permitted.

As I wrote before, he just could not seem to wait, got impatient, then got angry. His own ignorance of the way the music business works was his own undoing leading on to the very tragic serious of events that followed. Had he just gone with the system, he might have sold some songs or had a go at a recording career.  Instead the bloody wake of terror he left has lead him to live out his life behind bars.

You can read and hear more about multiple vocal microphone recording at >>>
http://www.google.com/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=vocal+recording+using+two+mics&oq=vocal+recording+using+two+mics&aq=f&aqi=g-q1&aql=&gs_l=hp.12..0i22.3672.16807.0.20240.40.32.2.5.5.1.569.8504.2-9j12j3j1.25.0...0.0.5l1_VHtucxs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=433f55e2a4872c5d&biw=1152&bih=574

~swd

Thank you so much for taking the time to write such a detailed reply Stephen...as many have said, I would really love to be able to get my hands on an updated copy of your book.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/breaking-news/judge-stops-lapd-warrant-for-manson-tapes/story-e6freuz9-1226499178036

Manson tapes.. Had me slightly excited for a milli second..wrong tapes

Stephen, can you explain what you mean by animal magnetism?

Possible titles for the Tosches book:

- Tainted Wilson Blood Ruined An Apple Juice Fast

- Tainted Wilson Blood   

 - Tainted Blood

anyone else?

I didn't like Tosches' book on Jerry Lee. It was all myth no man.

I thought his book on Emmett Miller and minstrelry more generally was excellent. I was a bit disappointed with his pre-Elvis rock'n'roll book, however, though but perhaps this was due to the paucity of information available for some of the figures; longer interviews would've been nice all the same. Like Joe Turner, he could also refer to Brian as a "big fat fuck"! :lol

Animals flocked to him because he smelled so terrible.

Does anyone know definitively, Dennis' relationship with Charlene Cafritz? Apparently they dated? Apparently he introduced her to Manson? Apparently she blew some of her inheritance on the Family? Apparently she made some home movies of the Family? Apparently she and the movies kinda disappeared?

Also did Grillo have any interaction with Manson?

Wow the SWD posts are so amazing. Mind blowing.

Interesting to note that during the recently revealed Brian interview with Stern from 88, Brian admits to knowing Beausoleie and that he was bummed his hairdresser Jay Sebring died in the Manson Murders.