Are The Beach Boys Fully Aware Of The Force Of Their Work?

[guitarfool2002]

It was odd timing to see this statement coming from Mike Nesmith earlier today in response to the question "Should the Monkees be inducted into the Rock Hall of Fame?". The issues of whether Brian should or would retire, the issues of the band's image and legacy, many other issues rolled into a few sentences...I found Mike's comments very profound, and this is a side of fame and stardom that fans can never understand, no matter how closely they follow an artist or how much they feel they are close to them. Very interesting was Mike's comment that even he doesn't know...This is the first part of a letter/post from him, the rest can be found on his Facebook.

Note the underlined sentences, and I'm curious to see other opinions of this same sentiment as applied to not only Brian who gets singled out more often as an influence on other musicians but also the Beach Boys as a whole.



""“Should The Monkees be included in The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?”, you ask.

I’ll try to keep this short -- may not work.

When The Beatles were recording Sgt. Peppers, Phyllis and I spent a few days with John and Cynthia at their home, and one in the studio with “the boys” .That’s where those pictures of John and I come from – the “Day in the Life” session.

The minute I had the wherewithal –cachet and money – I raced to London and looked up John.

During the ‘60s it seemed to me London was the center of the World and The Beatles were the center of London and the Sgt Pepper session was the center of The Beatles.
It was an extraordinary time, I thought, and I wanted to get as close as I could to the heart of it.

But like a hurricane the center was not stormy or tumultuous. It was exciting, but it was calm, and to an extent peaceful. The confidence of the art permeated the atmosphere. Serene – and really, really fun.

Then I discovered the reason for this.

During that time in one of our longer, more reflective, talks I realized that John was not aware of who The Beatles were. Of course he could not be. He was clueless in this regard. He had never seen or experienced them. In the strange paradox of fame, none of The Beatles ever saw The Beatles the way we did. Certainly not the way I did. I loved them beyond my ability to express it.

As the years passed and I met more and more exceptional people sitting in the center of their own hurricane I saw they all shared this same sensibility. None of them could actually know the force of their own work.

With no intention of comparison of work, I am in something of the same position with The Monkees. It was one of my private hurricanes – long gone and calm now, leaving me with great memories and artifacts – but with a critical element hidden to me in a most profound way.

Indeed. I don’t even know what the element is.

Weird, I know. But there you have it.

[Ron]

I've thought about this before, I think you can point to examples that illustrate this:

Some folks fall into the camp that say... William Shatner falls into.  Here's a guy who's aware that he's famous and people like him, but has no clue, even though he's constantly shown it, what high regard he's held in by the obsessed, maniacal trekkies.  They would worship him if allowed.  So he pokes fun at himself, and while he has an ego, he's not fully aware of hos huge his pop persona truly is.

Then you have people, who albeit bigger, cannot escape the 'full force of their work'... Elvis, Michael Jackson come to mind.  They become more and more reclusive, can't trust anybody, etc. and eventually it destroys their lives. 

So my answer is: I don't think that the Boys work is deserving of the 'force' that it hits people with, it's something bigger than they can possibly understand.  If they try to understand it, they'll likely end up like Michael Jackson did.



-------------------



On a similar note, here's another interesting one.  I saw an interview with Hulk Hogan one time where he was talking about celebrity.  He recounted this story of how he was throwing a birthday party for his young son, and had about 20 kids over at their house, all having a good time, running around, eating cake, playing games, and that's what he was doing that day.  He sat down on his bar and there was a huge stack of fan mail there, so he just casually opened an envelope to read it.  Out falls a picture, and a letter explaining to Hulk how big of a fan their son was, and how when he died of Leukemia he insisted on being buried in his Hulk Hogan T-Shirt.  The picture was of a 7 year old child laying in a casket, wearing his Hulk Hogan t-shirt.   

So he was just remarking how things like that make you feel really small, and he didnt' know how to handle that situation, what to say, do, how to act since he was at a birthday party, etc.

I don't believe the Boys have an understanding of their impact, and it's probably good that they don't. 

[Wild-Honey]

I've thought about this before, I think you can point to examples that illustrate this:

Some folks fall into the camp that say... William Shatner falls into.  Here's a guy who's aware that he's famous and people like him, but has no clue, even though he's constantly shown it, what high regard he's held in by the obsessed, maniacal trekkies.  They would worship him if allowed.  So he pokes fun at himself, and while he has an ego, he's not fully aware of hos huge his pop persona truly is.

Then you have people, who albeit bigger, cannot escape the 'full force of their work'... Elvis, Michael Jackson come to mind.  They become more and more reclusive, can't trust anybody, etc. and eventually it destroys their lives. 

So my answer is: I don't think that the Boys work is deserving of the 'force' that it hits people with, it's something bigger than they can possibly understand.  If they try to understand it, they'll likely end up like Michael Jackson did.



-------------------



On a similar note, here's another interesting one.  I saw an interview with Hulk Hogan one time where he was talking about celebrity.  He recounted this story of how he was throwing a birthday party for his young son, and had about 20 kids over at their house, all having a good time, running around, eating cake, playing games, and that's what he was doing that day.  He sat down on his bar and there was a huge stack of fan mail there, so he just casually opened an envelope to read it.  Out falls a picture, and a letter explaining to Hulk how big of a fan their son was, and how when he died of Leukemia he insisted on being buried in his Hulk Hogan T-Shirt.  The picture was of a 7 year old child laying in a casket, wearing his Hulk Hogan t-shirt.   

So he was just remarking how things like that make you feel really small, and he didnt' know how to handle that situation, what to say, do, how to act since he was at a birthday party, etc.

I don't believe the Boys have an understanding of their impact, and it's probably good that they don't. 

How devastating for Hulk Hogan,  that would crush me.  It's a little like unrequited love,  someone adores you but you don't feel the same way,  its awkward and you don't know how to act.  Celebrities -  wouldn't be one for quids.

[Wirestone]

At a certain level, if you're going to be a vital, continuing artist -- which I actually think most of the BBs are trying to be, to greater or lesser extents -- you have to insulate yourself from all that. Not only can't you know, you don't want to know what the world thinks of you. Because if you ingest that, you can't work.

If you want an example of someone who was nearly -- but thankfully not -- derailed by that knowledge, look at Dylan. He spent a good 20 years or so in the wilderness because he was the "voice of a generation." It was only by starting from the ground up as an improvisatory road warrior that he could give himself mental space to actually make good stuff again.

I've had very, very, very limited experience with this myself -- I do a lot of writing for publication, and have done some radio and TV appearances over the last year. But I can't really think of my work as something other people see. I mean, I know that they do logically, and I know I want it to be good, but I have to be in a mental space where I'm the only one talking or writing, or whatever, and I'm doing it for my own satisfaction. Otherwise I wouldn't know how.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

See, I'm the opposite, I know how great I am, but no one else does.

[hypehat]

As for Brian, I'm not sure - there's this quote from the Facebook questions for BWRG that always springs to mind,

'I get recognized all the time - what is going on here, I say. Well, I must be famous - I feel a little bit paranoid acutally'.

'I must be famous' - no sh*t, Brian! But at the same time he clearly doesn't view himself that way, and by extension I reckon he might downplay the influence of his work.

[filledeplage]

,

I've thought about this before, I think you can point to examples that illustrate this:

Some folks fall into the camp that say... William Shatner falls into.  Here's a guy who's aware that he's famous and people like him, but has no clue, even though he's constantly shown it, what high regard he's held in by the obsessed, maniacal trekkies.  They would worship him if allowed.  So he pokes fun at himself, and while he has an ego, he's not fully aware of hos huge his pop persona truly is.

Then you have people, who albeit bigger, cannot escape the 'full force of their work'... Elvis, Michael Jackson come to mind.  They become more and more reclusive, can't trust anybody, etc. and eventually it destroys their lives.  

So my answer is: I don't think that the Boys work is deserving of the 'force' that it hits people with, it's something bigger than they can possibly understand.  If they try to understand it, they'll likely end up like Michael Jackson did.



-------------------



On a similar note, here's another interesting one.  I saw an interview with Hulk Hogan one time where he was talking about celebrity.  He recounted this story of how he was throwing a birthday party for his young son, and had about 20 kids over at their house, all having a good time, running around, eating cake, playing games, and that's what he was doing that day.  He sat down on his bar and there was a huge stack of fan mail there, so he just casually opened an envelope to read it.  Out falls a picture, and a letter explaining to Hulk how big of a fan their son was, and how when he died of Leukemia he insisted on being buried in his Hulk Hogan T-Shirt.  The picture was of a 7 year old child laying in a casket, wearing his Hulk Hogan t-shirt.    

So he was just remarking how things like that make you feel really small, and he didnt' know how to handle that situation, what to say, do, how to act since he was at a birthday party, etc.

I don't believe the Boys have an understanding of their impact, and it's probably good that they don't.  

How devastating for Hulk Hogan,  that would crush me.  It's a little like unrequited love,  someone adores you but you don't feel the same way,  its awkward and you don't know how to act.  Celebrities -  wouldn't be one for quids.

They say "timing is everything" and the timing of Hulk's opening that envelope with that snapshot was tough and yet telling of the fact that Hulk, with his great fortune of a healthy child, brought joy into lives which were not so fortunate.  I suppose it is really humbling.  Having taught 4 and 5 year olds, for several decades, one concept we had to teach was the difference between fantasy and reality.  Occasionally I would have a young child with cancer, and often they would have found an "anchor" of sorts, not unlike the Ninja Turtles or the Disney Princesses or whatever that just helped them have a source of joy and a pleasant focus, or even hope of a sort. It was a coping strategy, and safe harbor for the nightmare of the child and their family.

And part of the responsiblity of being a public figure is having personal balance and not getting a "swelled head, and inflated sense of yourself." Believing "your own act," in other words.  

The ways in which one finds a certain "affinity" for music or art, which develops into a sort of  passion, revolve around your impressions and connection with the art, and the similarity of emotions it may evoke.  Something in Hulk Hogan's act "connected" for that child and gave him joy and hope.  It is an awesome responsibility and I think an honor to be so revered and cherished.

Do the Boys know their own strength?  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PD9f5EOYVk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
(Hope this is copied correctly.)

[guitarfool2002]

This brought up several very interesting dynamics which I don't think even the Beatles historians and obsessives had in mind. Remember this was 1967 as The Beatles were recording Sgt. Pepper, and along with that John had been heavily into LSD around this time and was in the process of what he described as destroying his ego. He was not the same John who was the strongest personality in the band as he had been in the early 60's. His leadership was more of an understood thing instead of something he outwardly portrayed. This is important in the timing of this meeting with Mike: The notion of being in an influential role even in his personal life was further being diminished by his LSD experiences, and he was making an effort conscious or sub-conscious to not project his ego. Whatever he was unaware of regarding the weight of his own work and his own image was dropping even further, because I'd say by nature the more influential people tell you that you are, the larger your ego will grow.

Mike met him right before the influence of The Beatles reached what was perhaps its highest peak apart from the initial Beatlemania in 63-64. Pepper was timed just right, and the Beatles became rock royalty instead of teenage idols or pop stars. It was Beatlemania that reached beyond teenagers, and into pop culture as a whole versus teen culture. Yet, the band was still a staple of teen-zines. The influence was immense, and don't let any revisionist historians try to sell a different version of that story: Sgt Pepper was, in fact, that big of a deal in 1967.

Put Mike Nesmith into this: The Monkees were easily in the top 3 most popular pop bands and television stars of 1967. You could argue their popularity on television was the catalyst and what also put them over the top in relation to other bands who didn't have a TV show every week or TV stars who didn't have hit records on the charts. Mike knew he was a star, John knew he was a star, but it's that great unknown element of what the fans saw these people as versus how they saw themselves that becomes the most fascinating X-Factor in all of this. It would be naive as hell to think these guys didn't realize what they were, and a reminder could be found anytime they saw a royalty check or anytime they'd be spotted in public and fans would claw at each other to catch a glimpse. You can't *not* see what is happening around you, but it was knowing the level of adoration and influence that surrounded them which eluded them and probably haunted them later.

Mike spelled it out perfectly: He loved John Lennon, his music and his work, and as soon as he had the stature to do so, John was who he wanted to meet. And John was unaware of how deep this affection was from Mike and millions of others - just as Mike in 2012 has been semi-detached from just how much he meant to so many fans even though The Monkees have been part of his life since the 60's. It's pretty amazing.

Make a list of those celebrities who transcend the notion of a superstar: Two notables are Elvis and The Beatles. We saw what happened to Elvis, who had to build a society inside of his mansion because he was simply not able to interact with the public as Elvis the celebrity - and for his fans there was no other Elvis. Now put him and The Beatles together - The Beatles were basically doing what Mike Nesmith had done with John: Once they had the cache and the means to do it, they wanted to meet one of their idols, the guy whose music and image they adored and copied.

No wonder it was strange and a bit awkward when they actually met: They couldn't relate. The Beatles were starstruck and expecting something that wasn't true. Elvis couldn't live up to it, who could, because the image of him was so strong in the fantasy world of John listening to Heartbreak Hotel as a teenager. Just like Mike was starstruck by John but eventually connected on a more personal level. Or was Elvis when meeting the Beatles feeling as John had felt when meeting Mike and others like him: Did he really know what level the adulation had reached with many fans? Or was he that insulated even in 1965 that he went through his life knowing he was popular but not being 100% aware of just how popular he was?

The Beach Boys are an interesting case, more with Brian than the group as a whole. I don't think Brian realized just how influential his music was, specifically Smile, even as fan after fan would tell him how much they loved it or how it influenced them. There is that missing element that Mike mentions where an artist of Brian's stature hears these things but because he was the center of the hurricane, the depth of the influence isn't felt as much from within, no matter how many people had told him. I think the surprise of the positive reactions to Smile through BWPS were genuine.

[filledeplage]

You the are correct about many issues raised by the whole concept of influence, that is continuing.  Is it different for the artist?  Often, when an artist is finished, they don't look back, and some are never finished.  It took Gustave Flaubert 5 years to write Madame Bovary,  because he was looking for "le mot juste." He wanted it to be perfect.  For many artists, the desire for perfection is never realized.  And they are very hard on themselves.  I think that Pet Sound will always be the star offering for me, because, it was more "concrete"  in concept and "available" as a fairly finished product.  Smile, while great, took on a life of its' own because it was not as "available."  I find the sessions tracks to Pet Sounds, still wonderful to listen to as a work-in-progress. 

And, I think that Pet Sounds has taken on a greater meaning, which is evident in the Sessions book that came with the box set.  My impression is that Brian is still surprised at its' impact.  Even young people "get it." Likely, because it is more straightforward and reflects a common human growth and development aspect in the lyrics, and the vocals are incomparable.  I haven't heard Sgt. Pepper in its' entirety in 40 years.  And, I won't be running out to get a CD.  It remains fixed, back in high school in that time warp as an LP.  CSNY or Buffalo Springfield is another story.  Even the Stones.  Some stuff you leave behind and some other stuff you bring with you. What is a "force" is  personal, as to that fan.   

Pet Sounds and the work of CSNY, for example, is more transparent, lyrically. I don't want to speculate about what lyrics mean. Spell it out, straightforwardly.  I still like what they have to say. They are still activists, and strive for change.  They did not get so weird or full of themselves that they could not connect in the real world. 

And, I hope Brian recognizes what his work means to people.  I have noticed many times, his making eye contact with fans, and, especially ones who "know the words" a boyish smile.  Somehow, Brian seems to get validation for his work.  But, at this point, it is very different from screaming teenagers of the 1960's.   I enjoyed his work on the Elton John/Leon Russell project.  Brian was filmed, doing his part, greeting Elton and Leon, and just going towards his next destination, just like the rest of us, in a very unassuming manner.  And yet, these giants, named Elton and Leon were still blown away by Brian's gift of harmony and composition.  To Brian, it seemed like "just another day at the office." 

But for fellow music giants, Brian and the Boys, are still a force.   Is it the fan or fellow renowed composer who determine the "force factor" of endurance? The response appears to be the same.

[adamghost]

Just wanted to say, brilliant thread.

It explains a lot of Mike Love's and some of the other band members' less artistically defensible actions when you understand his reality a lot of the time was how to sell tickets and deal with the people in the seats right in front of him.  It's much harder to see the arc of the band's image and viability in the long term when you're faced with that day to day reality.  It's not quite the same thing as what's being discussed here, but it ties in.

[hypehat]

That's a good point, Adam. The touring Beach Boys (I'm not sure where Brian fits into this, and by the 70's/80's he had other worries) got a lot of screaming for the hits, bafflement whenever Carl decided to play 'The Trader' or something in the set, poor record sales of good records where they felt they were growing artistically, then poor sales of records where they decided to pander, in some cases against their better judgement (MIU and LA in particular).
We may sit now many years after the fact and talk of the merits of Sunflower or Holland but they had reason to believe that they were wastes of time. It must be weird for them that they're seen as a good record now. Pleasant, yes, but strange.

[Aegir]

This is barely a comparison, but I'm 24 and I've been making music for about ten years. One of those extremely early recordings, which consists of me singing over a recorder (the wind instrument) playing the same melody, was (rightfully in my opinion) unappreciated in its time.

Since then I've made actual music that has a small amount of respect among my social group. About a year ago when I was on the road with one of my bands, they were listening to my ipod and found that song and loved it. It's one of my most popular songs. I think it sucks. And I'm so far beyond it. I'm not the kid who wrote/recorded that song anymore. I feel absolutely nothing when people tell me how much they love it.

Now just imagine people loving a crappy song you recorded 40 years ago or whatever. The distance, and therefore detachment, must be even greater.

[guitarfool2002]

Just wanted to say, brilliant thread.

It explains a lot of Mike Love's and some of the other band members' less artistically defensible actions when you understand his reality a lot of the time was how to sell tickets and deal with the people in the seats right in front of him.  It's much harder to see the arc of the band's image and viability in the long term when you're faced with that day to day reality.  It's not quite the same thing as what's being discussed here, but it ties in.

This is an excellent point to consider: As the face of and the emcee for the touring Beach Boys, the ones interacting directly with the fans, the center of Mike's hurricane would be a different one than Brian's, and I'm thinking specifically of the years just after Brian quite the road in the 60's. Quite a lot to think about when we look at it that way.

One example of that kind of disconnect was seeing that video posted recently of a 1983 BB show where Jeff Foskett sings lead on Warmth Of The Sun. I don't recall seeing Brian at the keyboard on that stage - if he was, ignore all this  - but someone had a YouTube comment where Bruce was mistaken as Brian. And this is 2012.