Holy Bee returns with latest crackpot theory: SMiLE almost done in Nov 66

[guitarfool2002]

Okay, to begin:

(And, of course, a four-part “Barnyard Suite” comprising a series of short sections. As to the Teen Scene description of a film featuring “a chicken in tennis shoes bopping around” - if this wasn’t a Brian-Vosse put on – then since “Barnyard” was part of “Heroes” when the article was written, then what’s being described is almost certainly Brian’s concept for the video clip for that single.

It also lends weight to the idea that Brian’s comment to Priess in ’77 – bearing in mind his problems at the time, his preference not to think too deeply about SMiLE over the previous ten years and that the final form of Heroes was created in at atmosphere approaching desperation – is a description either of the original form of that track, or of a conceived structure for its orphaned sections.)

I think you're placing too much emphasis on ideas or concepts from Brian's mouth that were spur of the moment and never really went anywhere, in the big picture of putting it all together. I've already posted my thoughts on ideas that Brian had, got everyone fired up about, and just as soon discarded them or forgot about them.

How about the dinner party as told by Siegel, where Brian got everyone banging silverware in rhythm, thought it was fantastic, and wanted to arrange a recording session to duplicate the dinner-plate symphony in the studio? Just as soon as everyone was excited and on-board, the idea was dropped and never revisited.

What about the barroom brawl? When the practicality of actually doing it eclipsed the fun of the original concept, it was dropped.

So we have Vosse - acting as Brian's assistant and as a free-lance author covering Brian's sessions for "Teen Set", Capitol's magazine - hearing Brian describe a film idea he had about a chicken wearing tennis shoes.

Is there any proof that anything related to this idea ever went beyond Brian having an idea for a film and expressing it? If Vosse had not been there and mentioned it in his article, we'd never have known, and it could have been just a passing thought. or not - but how can we add any more weight to a single statement from Brian without having additional information?

And ultimately, I think some attention should be given to the fact that we have nothing resembling a "finished" Barnyard with vocals, nor do we have anything resembling a "finished" "Great Shape" with vocals, suggesting these tracks could be placed alongside "Trombone Dixie" as great ideas that ended up on the scrap pile. In fact, Trombone Dixie is at least somewhat complete in its design, where Great Shape and Barnyard are not even mixed or edited beyond the reference mix stage.

[hypehat]

See, actually - on the basis of what I posted above - I'd be inclined to go IWBA/Workshop-I'm in Great Shape-Barnyard. But regardless of the order, you have a 2-3 minute track there which more or less follows the original schematic for Heroes minus the titular verses. I'm working on both a November and a December mix at the moment, which is quite revealing in several small ways - I've limited myself to only using backing tracks recorded prior to the end of November 1966, and for all the compromises - early Veggies demo instead of its more developed April incarnation, less pieces for Heroes, no Dada - it sounds much more like the "beautiful miniature" Van Dyke has described it as, rather than the sprawling "rock opera" we got in 2004. Not that that - just to be clear! - wasn't and isn't wonderful and perfect in its own right.

I have been following this thread (without much to contribute, natch - I tend to side with guitarfool in that Brian's wildcard nature at the time essentially makes it hard to define much of anything) but I'd love to hear the mix when it's all done! I lack a methodically authentic Smile in my collection...

[The_Holy_Bee]

Welcome back Guitarfool!

Re: TeenSet and the chicken film:

Sure, this may well have been a temporary enthusiasm and gone by the next day - or it may not. I hope I made it clear (not least by having them in parentheses) that those thoughts were simply by way of supporting evidence, or further observations, not intended to form as the backbone of the thesis. All the way through I've tried to base my conclusions primarily on hard data; and I believe I did so above on the subject of "I'm in Great Shape".

"And ultimately, I think some attention should be given to the fact that we have nothing resembling a "finished" Barnyard with vocals, nor do we have anything resembling a "finished" "Great Shape" with vocals, suggesting these tracks could be placed alongside "Trombone Dixie" as great ideas that ended up on the scrap pile. In fact, Trombone Dixie is at least somewhat complete in its design, where Great Shape and Barnyard are not even mixed or edited beyond the reference mix stage."

And as far as this goes, I feel like we've been here before! I'm hesitant to start repeating myself, but from my previous post:

"At least until the first week of November, “I’m Great Shape” didn’t exist as a song – it was part of Heroes and Villains. So in the “fully conceived” version of SMiLE this thread was intended to argue existed in October 1966, there was no “I’m in Great Shape”.

Then things changed – at least by December, when the mystery track we’ve debated for decades suddenly arrives on the Capitol memo. And the only hard data we have for that version is the (Great Shape) notation on “Workshop”, though we also have Vosse’s recollection of an instrumental featuring “sawing sounds” as developed from The Old Master Painter and connected to “Barnyard”."

Is any of this incorrect, inaccurate or unfairly presumptive?

We KNOW that "Great Shape" and "Barnyard" were originally part of Heroes. We KNOW their backing tracks were recorded and, in one case, mixed down with backing vocals and sound effects, waiting for a lead. We KNOW there was to be a track on the album called "I'm in Great Shape" because it's there on the cover slick (and regardless of the provenance of that memo, Cam Mott has established in his research there's no way Brian wouldn't have signed that listing off).

So I CONCLUDE from that that the musical section logged as "I'm in Great Shape" was to be a part of the track called "I'm in Great Shape", and I infer from it that it's likely its songmate Barnyard was going to go with it - if simply for the fact a 26 second segment is extremely unlikely to have been listed on its own. As for the rest of the track? No real idea! Surely that's the substance of this conversation?

The point is, once again, I'm trying to avoid hunches, personal feelings and my own bias and base my suppositions (which is obviously all they can be) on the material evidence. I'd ask you once again to go through my previous post and, if you're going to refute my conclusions - which is welcomed! - try to do it in terms of that data.

Oh, and while I'm on my high horse:

"That would be an interesting listen, I guess that will make-or-break your theory!"

Can't see how, really. It's the facts and how one reads 'em that count. I did say above the order of the pieces aren't really critical to this discussion. Actually, I've just done a mix which has "Workshop" in the middle and probably works the best to these ears.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm just calling 'em as I see 'em! 

This thread can continue another 20 pages with speculation and theories, but it's the initial title "SMiLE almost done in November" that I still have issues with after reading through these pages: I haven't seen the case made because referencing things like the tracklist and a demo has led to more red herrings than meaningful clues since I've been plugging in the same Smile theories and working tracklists as various parts of this thing have trickled out. I all but threw up my hands years ago - it really didn't lead me anywhere new. Putting the efforts into making a fan mix is one thing, but if it's trying to develop a feasible theory on something like "I'm In Great Shape" and where it could have fit is basing everything on speculation using a songwriter/producer who changed his mind regularly as a reference.

Specifically "Great Shape": Going back to LLVS, I like everyone else was fascinated by this...speculation was we already had it, but it could have been mislabeled. There were *vocal sessions*! What were those!? Then the Humble Harv demo appeared - one of the more mind-blowing and "Finally!" moments was hearing melody, lyrics, and chords to the great mystery tune. But wait...it was too damn short! There had to be more! What was Priore talking about in LLVS, how much more is there to be heard? What vocals were still undiscovered? It's just Brian's demo, he cut it short, there *has* to be more! And what did he say: "Fresh Zen Air", "Freshen Air", or "Fresh Clean Air" in that first line...

Then the "real" "I'm In Great Shape" tracking session appears, and it was the same form and length, and had the same single verse length open for lyrics as the demo, just adding an instrumental verse which was kind of pointless. Apparently there is an entire reel of instrumental run-throughs of the song in the vaults. That was all for the grand mystery of "I'm In Great Shape", dating back to LLVS over 20 years ago. It didn't amount to much. Surely not enough for a standalone track, which almost backed up the theory that the handwritten tracklist was not much more than another red herring in an ocean full of them.

I've gotten cynical on these things, I admit, and it wasn't always that way. I spent hours analyzing chords, harmonies, and structures trying to piece together a workable side 1/ side 2 arrangement using the key signatures of each piece we had available, and posted the results at that time. It was fun but ultimately it didn't add up to much more than speculation. Some of it did fit, but now I'd rather spend those hours listening to it as individual pieces rather than trying to glue it all together. 

[runnersdialzero]

...

[LostArt]

I hate to quote Vosse from the Fusion piece again, but...

"But let me say that I think that while the Beach Boys were in England, and while Brian was doing the tracks for the album, it was a totally conceived entity: there were just a few things to be resolved…"

[guitarfool2002]

I hate to quote Vosse from the Fusion piece again, but...

"But let me say that I think that while the Beach Boys were in England, and while Brian was doing the tracks for the album, it was a totally conceived entity: there were just a few things to be resolved…"

I'll always use the Vosse piece as a primary and trusted source of Smile info, but in this case the word "conceived" means a lot in the statement. Planning something and designing something means nothing if that something never gets beyond the drawing board stages. Or, having even a fully orchestrated score ready to give to the musicians means nothing if it never gets played.

One of the main points about Smile remaining unfinished is the last statement of Vosse's quote...the "few things" never got resolved, and what was thought to be "few" was actually much more. IMO.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hey Gf - great post. Thank you.

As for "One of the main points about Smile remaining unfinished is the last statement of Vosse's quote...the "few things" never got resolved, and what was thought to be "few" was actually much more. IMO."

All I'd say about that is you might well be right, but "fully conceived" is how a major inside player saw it two years after the fact - this must be given at least equal credibility in a discussion of this nature as hunches from fans forty five years later. I'm sure VDP has made a "we were almost finished" comment as well, but will have to hunt round and find it. Whether or not this squares with all the other data is a reasonable question - it's the question posed by this whole thread - and I still say (and have done at enormous length in these pages) that the suggestion from that data is that a two-sided, conventionally structured record could certainly have been not only conceived but largely tracked by around December 1966.

[egon spengler]

what a great thread--I still have a ton of backreading to do, but I just want to throw my 2 cents in while it's on my mind.  

i think folks are sometimes too quick to dismiss the "Dada = Water Element" theory as a post hoc rationalization. the two songs that we know were tied to the Elements in 66-67 (Fire [obv] and Vega-tables [per FH's caption in the booklet]) both vividly evoked the element they represented: the crinkling fire OD and the Boys chomping away on those earth-grown veggies aren't exactly subtle nods. Wind Chimes as Air is less explicit (i.e., there's no gusts of wind in the background), but i think Brian's switch from the harpsichord to the marimbas--which sound exacly like windchimes--suggests a conscious intention to make it sound like the wind itself should be listed on the tune's AFM contract. and, as has been said before, the piano tag sounds like wind chimes sprung to life.

so what song evokes Water to the same extent? i don't think we can disregard the fact that by June 7--just a couple weeks after the final Dada session on May 18--the Boys are singing some unabashedly water-based vocals on Cool Cool Water version 1 (track 14 on TSS disc 4). keeping in mind the way Brian was beginning to strip down the SMiLE versions of Vegatables, Wind Chimes, Wonderful, etc. for Smiley Smile around that time, i have have a hard time defining Dada and CCW as two different songs, like All Dressed Up and Marcella or something.. rather, CCW (particularly v1) sounds to me like a pretty clear attempt at a Smiley Smile version of what a finished Dada would have been. throw some "drip drip drip drips" and other watery vocals on top of Dada (like I think Brian was planning to do), and you've got yourself an evocative Water Element that fits nicely with the crinkling Fire, chomping Veggies, and tinkling wind chime marimbas.  for the record, i wish BWPS had gone this route instead of creating In Blue Hawaii.

anyway, off to read the rest of the thread and see why this theory is either completely wrong or incredibly old news.

[The Demon]

Re: TeenSet and the chicken film:

Sure, this may well have been a temporary enthusiasm and gone by the next day - or it may not. I hope I made it clear (not least by having them in parentheses) that those thoughts were simply by way of supporting evidence, or further observations, not intended to form as the backbone of the thesis. All the way through I've tried to base my conclusions primarily on hard data; and I believe I did so above on the subject of "I'm in Great Shape".

I think it's pretty clear in the tone of the article that the reason for the chicken/tennis shoe quote is to show how silly Brian's whims are to the observer, and also to show how the album is rapidly and constantly developing.  There is nothing to suggest that the idea was at all a serious part of the album.  Between that quote and the bit in IJWMFTT, the only thing that's obvious is that Brian wanted to evoke a comical take on farm life.  The chicken film I never took seriously.  I always read that quote as a sign that he really didn't know what he was doing and was too busy getting hooked on silly ideas to develop the good work he'd already done.

[The_Holy_Bee]

I think it's pretty clear in the tone of the article that the reason for the chicken/tennis shoe quote is to show how silly Brian's whims are to the observer, and also to show how the album is rapidly and constantly developing.  There is nothing to suggest that the idea was at all a serious part of the album.  Between that quote and the bit in IJWMFTT, the only thing that's obvious is that Brian wanted to evoke a comical take on farm life.  The chicken film I never took seriously.  I always read that quote as a sign that he really didn't know what he was doing and was too busy getting hooked on silly ideas to develop the good work he'd already done.

As it happens, that's a complete misreading of the article, which was actually written by Vosse in collusion with Brian - some of its contents were consciously designed as put ons by the boys. The chicken film might have been one of those; but regardless I don't see how you could possibly use that particular example to demonstrate "he really didn't know what he was doing". And if, as I have said ad infinitum, there is every evidence that Barnyard was part of Heroes in November when the article was written, and it had already been cited in the press as the single, then why wouldn't Brian be considering ideas for a promotional film?

[Cam Mott]

I personally think these side projects are a distraction to us fans as to what was going on with the album. Brian may not have taken those side projects too seriously but the album and the singles were Brian's main business and he made it clear during Pet Sounds and SMiLE that he took them very serious and he spent a lot of time thinking out what he wanted to do and then he did it. He showed up prepared. Even if he decided to make changes, they were thought out first, and then he went to the studio and did it. And he identified what he intended as he did it and made changes. I just don't think the album's or single's ends were as loose as sometimes thought.

[The_Holy_Bee]

Hi, hope no one will mind if I bump my own thread, but have been sick the last couple of days.

Good thoughts, Egon, but one point to make:

"so what song evokes Water to the same extent? i don't think we can disregard the fact that by June 7--just a couple weeks after the final Dada session on May 18--the Boys are singing some unabashedly water-based vocals on Cool Cool Water version 1 (track 14 on TSS disc 4)."

Sure, but I think one of the cases I've been making in this thread (and the others including Cam have made before me) is that SMiLE really is over by the Veggies single sessions in April, so if that's true the May Dada sessions don't fit chronologically into that schema. On the other hand, since we have the December Da Da tracking sessions, maybe the idea was in mind for "Water" before the album began imploding. I still reckon Frank Holmes points the finger at Surf's Up!

Also, have just been going through the sessionography and realized I made a significant error above, claiming Heroes never saw vocals recorded in '66. Of course it did - four sessions in late December, though two of them ("Insert Overdubs") only featured Brian. The book seems to speculate the vocals heard on the "Cantina" version are from these sessions.

[The Song Of The Grange]

I think it is interesting to note that for any vocal session done at Columbia with the 8-track, a mix of the instrumental track had to be made unless they were taking the 4 tracks (of the 4-track tape) and transferring them individually onto 4 tracks of the 8 track tape. During the Pet Sounds sessions it appears that Brian's MO was to mix down the music to one or two tracks for transfer to the 8-track in order to save as much space as possible for vocals. If this was the case with Smile, he would have had to make fairly final mixes of the music for all songs that received a Columbia 8-track overdub session. It is possible that Brian could have been tracking vocals over the separate modular units before they were edited together (for example, he could have done the vocals for the verse of Cabin Essence and then the vocals for the chorus of Cabin Essence without needing to edit the two pieces of music together ahead of time). But, in the case of Good Vibrations, he did track the vocals over a fairly complete mix of the instrumental track. If the vocals overlapped to sections of music to be edited later, it would have been very hard (if not impossible) to pull off the edit without it cutting off the last part of the vocals on the out-going section of the song. Listen to how the end of the first chorus of GV transitions into the second verse. The chorus vocals blend behind the start of the verse lead vocal. This sort of cross-fade would have been impossible to do with standard tape editing. In this case, chorus vocals and the lead had to have been recorded on different tracks over the SAME master mix of the music track.

This said, it make me wonder how many (fairly) final instrumental track mixes had to have been made for these songs that had vocal work done on them at Columbia. Also, I wonder if some of the Columbia vocal sessions were done on 4-track tape? Maybe everything that went to Columbia didn't get bounced up to the 8-track machine.

[guitarfool2002]

I think it is interesting to note that for any vocal session done at Columbia with the 8-track, a mix of the instrumental track had to be made unless they were taking the 4 tracks (of the 4-track tape) and transferring them individually onto 4 tracks of the 8 track tape. During the Pet Sounds sessions it appears that Brian's MO was to mix down the music to one or two tracks for transfer to the 8-track in order to save as much space as possible for vocals. If this was the case with Smile, he would have had to make fairly final mixes of the music for all songs that received a Columbia 8-track overdub session. It is possible that Brian could have been tracking vocals over the separate modular units before they were edited together (for example, he could have done the vocals for the verse of Cabin Essence and then the vocals for the chorus of Cabin Essence without needing to edit the two pieces of music together ahead of time). But, in the case of Good Vibrations, he did track the vocals over a fairly complete mix of the instrumental track. If the vocals overlapped to sections of music to be edited later, it would have been very hard (if not impossible) to pull off the edit without it cutting off the last part of the vocals on the out-going section of the song. Listen to how the end of the first chorus of GV transitions into the second verse. The chorus vocals blend behind the start of the verse lead vocal. This sort of cross-fade would have been impossible to do with standard tape editing. In this case, chorus vocals and the lead had to have been recorded on different tracks over the SAME master mix of the music track.

This said, it make me wonder how many (fairly) final instrumental track mixes had to have been made for these songs that had vocal work done on them at Columbia. Also, I wonder if some of the Columbia vocal sessions were done on 4-track tape? Maybe everything that went to Columbia didn't get bounced up to the 8-track machine.

A very interesting point came up when we were discussing a silent film of Brian mixing with Chuck Britz at Western - the film with Brian wearing the firehat as he's sitting at the console (The thread is still on this board, it was in the past year):

Brian and Chuck were mixing with an 8-track machine at Western in that film, and by some clues in the film, it was shot sometime in the fall of 1966. This kind of threw a wrench in the accepted knowledge that when Brian needed those extra tracks free for vocals, that was done at Columbia. Maybe that was true for 1965 going into the Pet Sounds sessions, but they're clearly shown with an 8-track machine at Western during the fall '66 Smile sessions.

That would almost remove the necessity of going to Columbia to track vocals every time, then have to bounce in order to mix, etc...all the inner workings we heard about from Pet Sounds. So it just adds another layer and more questions. I'd still really like to figure out what track they're working on with Chuck at Western in the film, with 8 tracks, because all the Beach Boys and Van Dyke are there (suggesting it could be a vocal session or a final mix).

Up to the point of seeing the film, I assumed all 8-track work was done at Columbia.

[The Song Of The Grange]

A very interesting point came up when we were discussing a silent film of Brian mixing with Chuck Britz at Western - the film with Brian wearing the firehat as he's sitting at the console (The thread is still on this board, it was in the past year):

Brian and Chuck were mixing with an 8-track machine at Western in that film, and by some clues in the film, it was shot sometime in the fall of 1966. This kind of threw a wrench in the accepted knowledge that when Brian needed those extra tracks free for vocals, that was done at Columbia. Maybe that was true for 1965 going into the Pet Sounds sessions, but they're clearly shown with an 8-track machine at Western during the fall '66 Smile sessions.

That would almost remove the necessity of going to Columbia to track vocals every time, then have to bounce in order to mix, etc...all the inner workings we heard about from Pet Sounds. So it just adds another layer and more questions. I'd still really like to figure out what track they're working on with Chuck at Western in the film, with 8 tracks, because all the Beach Boys and Van Dyke are there (suggesting it could be a vocal session or a final mix).

Up to the point of seeing the film, I assumed all 8-track work was done at Columbia.

I will try to track down that thread about the firehat film.
There is a track on the box set (Disc 2, track 5) which I thought had an error in the documentation. It says that I'm In Great Shape (recorded 10/27/66) was done at Western on 8-track tape. I figured it was just an error (there are a few on the big info pages, though in general its an incredible piece of research). But maybe it isn't an error? Still, if Western had an 8-track in late 1966 then why is everything done at Western (except possibly this IIGS session) done on 4-track? One would think BW wouldn't go to all the hassle of transferring everything to 8-track and going to Columbia if he could use the 8-track at Western. There aren't many vocal sessions done at Western, and all of them (according to the Box set notes) were done on 4-track. If Western had an 8-track, would BW have only used it once in the whole Smile era? Very mysterious--but hey, this is Smile we are talking about. Everything must be strange and mysterious.

Without having seen the film, I wonder if what people are seeing is an 8 channel mixing board. It would be completely reasonable to have an 8 channel board but only a 4-track machine. But coming from you (guitarfool), I am inclined to believe what you say. You seem to know what you are talking about when it comes to gear. You blew me away with the info you had on the moog ribbon controller specially built for the BBs.

[guitarfool2002]

A very interesting point came up when we were discussing a silent film of Brian mixing with Chuck Britz at Western - the film with Brian wearing the firehat as he's sitting at the console (The thread is still on this board, it was in the past year):

Brian and Chuck were mixing with an 8-track machine at Western in that film, and by some clues in the film, it was shot sometime in the fall of 1966. This kind of threw a wrench in the accepted knowledge that when Brian needed those extra tracks free for vocals, that was done at Columbia. Maybe that was true for 1965 going into the Pet Sounds sessions, but they're clearly shown with an 8-track machine at Western during the fall '66 Smile sessions.

That would almost remove the necessity of going to Columbia to track vocals every time, then have to bounce in order to mix, etc...all the inner workings we heard about from Pet Sounds. So it just adds another layer and more questions. I'd still really like to figure out what track they're working on with Chuck at Western in the film, with 8 tracks, because all the Beach Boys and Van Dyke are there (suggesting it could be a vocal session or a final mix).

Up to the point of seeing the film, I assumed all 8-track work was done at Columbia.

I will try to track down that thread about the firehat film.
There is a track on the box set (Disc 2, track 5) which I thought had an error in the documentation. It says that I'm In Great Shape (recorded 10/27/66) was done at Western on 8-track tape. I figured it was just an error (there are a few on the big info pages, though in general its an incredible piece of research). But maybe it isn't an error? Still, if Western had an 8-track in late 1966 then why is everything done at Western (except possibly this IIGS session) done on 4-track? One would think BW wouldn't go to all the hassle of transferring everything to 8-track and going to Columbia if he could use the 8-track at Western. There aren't many vocal sessions done at Western, and all of them (according to the Box set notes) were done on 4-track. If Western had an 8-track, would BW have only used it once in the whole Smile era? Very mysterious--but hey, this is Smile we are talking about. Everything must be strange and mysterious.

Without having seen the film, I wonder if what people are seeing is an 8 channel mixing board. It would be completely reasonable to have an 8 channel board but only a 4-track machine. But coming from you (guitarfool), I am inclined to believe what you say. You seem to know what you are talking about when it comes to gear. You blew me away with the info you had on the moog ribbon controller specially built for the BBs.

Here is a link to page 2 of the thread in question: http://smileysmile.net/board/index.php/topic,10570.25.html

And here are two photos from that thread showing two different sessions at Western - with Chuck and Van Dyke present - where the same 8-track machine can be seen at Western:




I'm not trying to take the original thread too far off topic with these photos, but since they were mentioned it would be good to get some more eyes on them and try to get some more info. Short of re-reading the full thread we had going on this, I don't know if any hard evidence or definite answers were ever found...and I think the photo of an 8-track at Western, during Smile, is something of a game-changer...wherever it leads, if anywhere at all, may be worth another look and may add to the topic of this thread.

The accepted theory was that Brian did vocals at Columbia because they had 8 tracks - as much as that was said as the Pet Sounds Sessions set was released. When/how/why did Brian get access to that 8-track at Western, and did it play a role somehow in how he recorded Smile? It seems vocals were still being recorded at Columbia, as yet another film shows, and tracking more at Western - again, another film proves this.

I was still guessing the Western 8-track at that time ('66) was for Brian to *mix* with Chuck at Western without all the hassles, not only of having to bounce tracks but also of having to follow stricter rules at Columbia, as Western was an independent studio. But from the "Great Shape" example, they tracked with it, too...interesting.

[The Song Of The Grange]

Thanks guitarfool. I read the whole thread. Very interesting. It seems like we never came to a complete conclusion about the mystery 8-track appearing in two different photos (from different sessions) from Western. It sure does look like and 8-track. But all the evidence goes against an 8-track at Western. Unless BW just liked the sound of Columbia for vocals, it seems very strange that he wouldn't have just stayed at Western and used their 8-track at least SOME of the time. But the very well researched documentation in the book from the Smile box set (except for one place which very well could be an error) shows no evidence at all of an 8-track at Western. Everything is done on 1/2" tape, and over and over the notes mentioned that the tape was transferred to 8-track for vocals. If Western had an 8-track, it would be very strange for them to use the 4-track for the instruments and then sub mix that and transfer it to the 8-track machine in the same control room. In the photo dated 1/6/67 the mystery 8-track is in the same spot in the control room. It is possible that they rented it two separate times and put it in the same spot both times, but it seems fishy.  It sure looks like 1" tape and there are 8 pre-amps. I don't know what to think. It's baffling.

The one session that is an anomaly in the box set book is CD2, Track 5. Heroes and Villains I'm In Great Shape (10/27/66). It says "recorded on 1" 8-track tape." I'm inclined to think this is an error. Either the session was at Columbia or the recording was on 4-track.

[guitarfool2002]

Thanks guitarfool. I read the whole thread. Very interesting. It seems like we never came to a complete conclusion about the mystery 8-track appearing in two different photos (from different sessions) from Western. It sure does look like and 8-track. But all the evidence goes against an 8-track at Western. Unless BW just liked the sound of Columbia for vocals, it seems very strange that he wouldn't have just stayed at Western and used their 8-track at least SOME of the time. But the very well researched documentation in the book from the Smile box set (except for one place which very well could be an error) shows no evidence at all of an 8-track at Western. Everything is done on 1/2" tape, and over and over the notes mentioned that the tape was transferred to 8-track for vocals. If Western had an 8-track, it would be very strange for them to use the 4-track for the instruments and then sub mix that and transfer it to the 8-track machine in the same control room. In the photo dated 1/6/67 the mystery 8-track is in the same spot in the control room. It is possible that they rented it two separate times and put it in the same spot both times, but it seems fishy.  It sure looks like 1" tape and there are 8 pre-amps. I don't know what to think. It's baffling.

The one session that is an anomaly in the box set book is CD2, Track 5. Heroes and Villains I'm In Great Shape (10/27/66). It says "recorded on 1" 8-track tape." I'm inclined to think this is an error. Either the session was at Columbia or the recording was on 4-track.

There is the rub: Saying there is no evidence of an 8-track at Western is directly contradicted and disputed by two photos of two separate Western sessions where Brian and Chuck Britz are working with an eight track. It makes it very confusing! Just to clarify, that is without a doubt an 8-track machine: Other camera angles show it more clear, there is no doubt what it is at this point. The question is how and when did it show up there and what were they doing with it in the photos?

I'd say the myth of Western not having an 8-track around this time has been busted by those two photos. I've had and known the photo of Brian with Chuck wearing the red shirt for years, but it took some detective work on the silent film to realize both photos are showing the same 8-track machine. That was a big discovery in the saga.

At some point there was an interview with Chuck Britz where he mentioned to Brian why the vocals were not being cut at Western, why Columbia was instead getting the bookings over Western. If someone remembers that, it could be clarified even more, but I think at this particular time Brian liked the vocal sound at Columbia over the other studios, not to mention the availability of 8-tracks *depending on when Chuck said this to Brian*. And it's easy to infer he liked to mix at Western because Chuck let him work the board more openly than a union studio like Columbia where he didn't have that luxury.

Was the machine brought to Western specifically for Brian to mix the vocal tracks he had cut at Columbia? Was it brought in so he could not only mix but also *record* at Western using 8-tracks?

***Remember, one key element of the silent film at Western was that the Beach Boys and Van Dyke were at the studio that day. With that, we could assume it was a vocal session of some kind...why else would they be there and why would Van Dyke be there as well?

I wish some of this issue was addressed in the box set, I can't recall if the film's mysteries were discussed before or after the set had already been put together or not.

Adding this on to the original post: In the film you can see all 8 needles on the meters moving as the tape is being played back, so there were 8 tracks on that tape. It's proof they were working with 8 tracks in that film, whatever track it was they were working on that day.

[Beach Head]

Was the machine brought to Western specifically for Brian to mix the vocal tracks he had cut at Columbia? Was it brought in so he could not only mix but also *record* at Western using 8-tracks?

There's also the possibility that Brian had nothing to do with the 8-track machine being brought to Western. I raise that possibility because he wasn't the only one to use it. Frank Sinatra recorded "That's Life" on Western's 8-track on Oct. 18, 1966. I don't know if that was the first 8-track session at the studio, but it does allow us to say that the machine definitely was there by that date.

[guitarfool2002]

Was the machine brought to Western specifically for Brian to mix the vocal tracks he had cut at Columbia? Was it brought in so he could not only mix but also *record* at Western using 8-tracks?

There's also the possibility that Brian had nothing to do with the 8-track machine being brought to Western. I raise that possibility because he wasn't the only one to use it. Frank Sinatra recorded "That's Life" on Western's 8-track on Oct. 18, 1966. I don't know if that was the first 8-track session at the studio, but it does allow us to say that the machine definitely was there by that date.

That's a good point, and again it leaves a few questions unanswered from the previous thread. Looking through United/Western's literature, you might get the impression they didn't upgrade across the board to 8-track until some time in 1967. Photos from that time show different machines in use, like 3M 8-tracks, but not the one in the Brian-Chuck photos. And we know Wally Heider was making a good income renting 8-track machines to studios which didn't yet have them installed.

This will be answered hopefully, it's just confusing as anything when trying to pin down the dates of all this. And what that tape machine shown with Brian actually was or who owned it.

[Tristero]

I know I’m a little late to the party, but what a fantastic thread!  It really goes to show you how far our understanding of SMiLE has come from the dark ages of 90’s (Link tracks?  Forgetaboutit!).  I find HB’s core thesis to be pretty convincing—that the project was buzzing along nicely in the fall, getting nearer to completion than we might have previously suspected and then things quickly go awry in December. 

Now, I wouldn’t want to go too far here because even leaving aside the major question marks of IIGS and the Elements, there are still other gray areas:  What about Child, which apparently had no finished lyrics or lead vocal line?  Yes, we know the basic structure, but it still remains hauntingly incomplete.  The same could be said of Worms.  We know what Brian did with the verses in 2003 and we have that small vocal fragment now from the sessions, though I’m not entirely convinced that this is how it would have turned out back then. 

And then we have the two potential singles, H&V and V-T.  Yes, there were early versions from October, but I’m not sure how well these prototypes would have worked on a finished album.  The V-T demo is great as far as it goes, but it feels like it’s missing something at the end and ultimately Brian needed to bring in something else to complete it (which might lead one to believe that this would have originally been stitched into a larger Elemental suite, but then why was it broken out on the track listing?).  And while the musical comedy idea behind H&V Mach I is tantalizing, that disjointed early structure was never going to fly as a single.  What’s striking about so many of the SMiLE tracks is the almost complete absence of traditional choruses and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if someone (maybe Mike or Carl) brought this to Brian’s attention as the focus shifted over to the lead singles heading into the new year.  He ultimately had to draft in other bits to complete the songs and this is what led to some of the cannibalization we saw in ‘67.  Actually, I guess this was first done with Iron Horse in Cabinessence, then Do A Lot for V-T and Bicycle Rider for H&V.

It’s hard not to look at the timeline there, along with the comments from people like Vosse and Siegel, and draw the conclusion that some of the negative reactions on the part of the Boys, the difficulties that apparently arose in those December vocal sessions, rattled Brian a bit, planting the seeds of doubt in his mind (All that hash probably didn’t help either!).  Suddenly, his euphoric trip started turning into a heavy bummer.  I’m really not trying to point the finger at anyone and honestly, I could see how such questions might arise when only Brian understood how all the pieces would likely fit together (and not even then sometimes!).  As has been mentioned, I think the point about performing these songs live would have been pretty significant for the band and in fact, Carl later mentioned that as a major concern for Mike.  It is striking how quickly Brian’s enthusiasm from the fall curdled, but the growing tension within the band, pressure from the label to deliver a sellable product and yes, maybe even the Murry factor probably all played a part.  On the surface, Brian came across as a very confident guy who knew what he wanted in the studio, but he also had a lot of insecurities underneath.  He wanted to please people and he might have felt hurt those around him didn’t seem to get what he was going for.  I suppose this is ultimately what led to him scrapping the entire thing and starting over again with Smiley Smile, though it surely would have been easier to salvage at least a few more of the spare parts from the original sessions—maybe he just couldn’t bear the thought of releasing something that was so special to him, particularly a song like Surf’s Up, only to have it be rejected or misunderstood.  Maybe the relatively lukewarm response to Pet Sounds served as a warning sign here.  I remember reading a little quote of his from the late 60’s (I believe) with reference to SMiLE where he said something like, sometimes you just do a little piece of music for yourself, not to be shared.  It was almost like, hey, you don’t get my genius?  Fine, I’ll keep it to myself.  (Pure speculation on my part, I know!)

Looking at all of this, I’m often reminded of the similar struggles that Pete Townshend faced with his ambitious Lifehouse project.  He kept trying to explain the idea to others, but somehow it just wasn’t coming across and their early attempts to perform the new material in front of a live audience didn’t catch fire like he’d hoped.  Ultimately, they did use most of the key scraps from Lifehouse on Who’s Next, which proved to be their most successful album.  I often wonder how things might have turned out if Beach Boys taken a similar approach in ’67—I imagine it would have been less baffling than Smiley Smile.

[The Song Of The Grange]

I just noticed a second instance where the Smile Session box set book says that 8-track recording was done at Western. In the session info for Wind Chines (disc 4, track 6) it says "recorded on 1" 8-track tape & later transferred to 1/2" 4-track tape for vocals." Like the entry for I'm In Great Shape (disc 2, track 5), I am thinking this is just a typographical error. Why would you dub an 8 track back down to a 4-track for vocals at Columbia? It seems like the reverse of the usual MO.

[The_Holy_Bee]

A return from the dead for this old thread just to say I've finally put together a '66 mix of SMiLE. It's a 12 track, 35-minute version of the LP as it may have been completed in the window between the December Capital Memo and whatever happened to lead to Brian's sudden exclusive focus on the singles in January, using (almost) exclusively material recorded in 1966.

I think it's a revealing and rewarding listen; if any of the contributors to this thread would like to give it a listen, please PM for a link.