Who hated SMiLE?

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Whether Miked Smile or hated it with a passion: he still showed up and sang and provided Brian with whatever he needed of him to make the project work. Who cares really if he hated it with a passion or didn't? The guy showed up and did as Brian told him to. What's the big deal? What's with the burning need to paint Mike as the boogeyman?

[Mike's Beard]

Why don't we liken this to the Manson murders?

Sure, there were complicated reasons for the murders and Manson certainly couldn't have pulled it off on his own, but he sits in prison (on an original death sentence) because HE made the decision to carry out the murders.


Sure, he didn't actually commit the murders, but he's guilty all the same and even more so because it was his decision and his baby!

No one seems to be completely guilty or completely innocent in the Smile sage. Can we leave it at that?

Manson killed Smile?

Did he kill 20/20 though???

No, Bruce did by sticking on "Bluebirds Over The Mountain".

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

So, Bruce is the Tex Watson of 20/20?

[rab2591]

Why don't we liken this to the Manson murders?

Sure, there were complicated reasons for the murders and Manson certainly couldn't have pulled it off on his own, but he sits in prison (on an original death sentence) because HE made the decision to carry out the murders.


Sure, he didn't actually commit the murders, but he's guilty all the same and even more so because it was his decision and his baby!

No one seems to be completely guilty or completely innocent in the Smile sage. Can we leave it at that?

Manson killed Smile?

Did he kill 20/20 though???

No, Bruce did by sticking on "Bluebirds Over The Mountain".

priceless!!

[Wirestone]

What I don't get is admitting blame to those who deny it and denying blame to those who admit it. Mike says he didn't hate SMiLE, he didn't like some of the lyrics.

He's the genius, not us.

And Brian and van Dyke and others say he hated it.  You prefer to believe Mike, fine but you should recognize that those that choose to believe the greater number of eye witnesses have an equally valid (and probably with greater numbers more valid) point of view.  What, you think Brian and van and David and Marilyn aren't remembering correctly, are lying, or have an axe to grind?  The same can be said of Mike.

And I'm a genius too!  Murray told me!

No, I assume they are giving their impression. What Mike thought trumps their impression. Anderle also said arguments and dislike between Brian and Van Dyke of their respective lyrics and music is what killed SMiLE and that was within a year of the time, is this true because he said it? It too seems like it is his impression [although he is more specific about this than Mike], probably partly true and partly mistaken. Would we take Van Dyke's and Brian's word on this over Anderle's?

"What Mike thought trumps their impression."

Nope. There is no objective way to know what anyone thinks. All we have are impressions. If everyone at the time believed Mike hated it, and behaved as if he did so, what does it matter what he felt? Didn't he then have some responsibility to make his actual views known? Or was he content to play both sides of the fence?

Whether Miked Smile or hated it with a passion: he still showed up and sang and provided Brian with whatever he needed of him to make the project work. Who cares really if he hated it with a passion or didn't? The guy showed up and did as Brian told him to. What's the big deal? What's with the burning need to paint Mike as the boogeyman?

Because if Brian was a sensitive at the time as many say, the outspoken criticism of the band's live frontman would count for a lot. It would eat away at confidence. It would make BW think twice about his artistic course. It could end up being one of many things that droves Brian to abandon the project.

Your argument is kind of like a husband telling his wife: "I work hard and pay for the house. I even wash the dishes every night. So what if I curse at you all the time and say you're worthless? Who cares?"

I think the wife would care quite a lot, actually.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think Mike's opinion certainly didn't help, but was Mike's opinion REALLY all that important to Brian? Think about it!

And once again, Mike not liking Smile is one thing. but he showed up and sang and did as he was told. This demonstrates that Mike's feelings, no mater what they were, were surmountable and should not have meant that Brian had to abandon the project.

[18thofMay]

A couple of really ordinary threads at the moment...

[Cam Mott]

What I don't get is admitting blame to those who deny it and denying blame to those who admit it. Mike says he didn't hate SMiLE, he didn't like some of the lyrics.

He's the genius, not us.

And Brian and van Dyke and others say he hated it.  You prefer to believe Mike, fine but you should recognize that those that choose to believe the greater number of eye witnesses have an equally valid (and probably with greater numbers more valid) point of view.  What, you think Brian and van and David and Marilyn aren't remembering correctly, are lying, or have an axe to grind?  The same can be said of Mike.

And I'm a genius too!  Murray told me!

No, I assume they are giving their impression. What Mike thought trumps their impression. Anderle also said arguments and dislike between Brian and Van Dyke of their respective lyrics and music is what killed SMiLE and that was within a year of the time, is this true because he said it? It too seems like it is his impression [although he is more specific about this than Mike], probably partly true and partly mistaken. Would we take Van Dyke's and Brian's word on this over Anderle's?

"What Mike thought trumps their impression."

Nope. There is no objective way to know what anyone thinks. All we have are impressions. If everyone at the time believed Mike hated it, and behaved as if he did so, what does it matter what he felt? Didn't he then have some responsibility to make his actual views known? Or was he content to play both sides of the fence?

Well, there is an objective way to know what someone thinks: when someone tells you they didn't hate something, it is their objective thought and not someone else's subjective impression. The impression is wrong at that point. How would Mike be responsible for someone's wrong impression?   The one who formed the wrong impression is responsible for finding out the actual views before spouting their opinion. Mike has corrected this wrong impression repeatedly. How many times does it take?

It's all beside the point, it puts everything backwards. Brian didn't like SMiLE and he scrapped it. We keep trying to blame someone besides Brian or invent reasons why Brian isn't responsible for his likes and wishes and actions but Brian himself says the Boys fought him to save SMiLE. That's Brian saying he was against SMiLE, Boys were for SMiLE. The Boys likes and wants didn't matter and Brian ignored their wishes to keep SMiLE and scrapped it against their wishes because he wanted to. So much for the myth of Brian being sensitive to the Boys wishes in this regard I guess.

[Chris Brown]

What I don't get is admitting blame to those who deny it and denying blame to those who admit it. Mike says he didn't hate SMiLE, he didn't like some of the lyrics.

He's the genius, not us.

And Brian and van Dyke and others say he hated it.  You prefer to believe Mike, fine but you should recognize that those that choose to believe the greater number of eye witnesses have an equally valid (and probably with greater numbers more valid) point of view.  What, you think Brian and van and David and Marilyn aren't remembering correctly, are lying, or have an axe to grind?  The same can be said of Mike.

And I'm a genius too!  Murray told me!

No, I assume they are giving their impression. What Mike thought trumps their impression. Anderle also said arguments and dislike between Brian and Van Dyke of their respective lyrics and music is what killed SMiLE and that was within a year of the time, is this true because he said it? It too seems like it is his impression [although he is more specific about this than Mike], probably partly true and partly mistaken. Would we take Van Dyke's and Brian's word on this over Anderle's?

"What Mike thought trumps their impression."

Nope. There is no objective way to know what anyone thinks. All we have are impressions. If everyone at the time believed Mike hated it, and behaved as if he did so, what does it matter what he felt? Didn't he then have some responsibility to make his actual views known? Or was he content to play both sides of the fence?

Well, there is an objective way to know what someone thinks: when someone tells you they didn't hate something, it is their objective thought and not someone else's subjective impression. The impression is wrong at that point. How would Mike be responsible for someone's wrong impression?   The one who formed the wrong impression is responsible for finding out the actual views before spouting their opinion. Mike has corrected this wrong impression repeatedly. How many times does it take?

It's all beside the point, it puts everything backwards. Brian didn't like SMiLE and he scrapped it. We keep trying to blame someone besides Brian or invent reasons why Brian isn't responsible for his likes and wishes and actions but Brian himself says the Boys fought him to save SMiLE. That's Brian saying he was against SMiLE, Boys were for SMiLE. The Boys likes and wants didn't matter and Brian ignored their wishes to keep SMiLE and scrapped it against their wishes because he wanted to. So much for the myth of Brian being sensitive to the Boys wishes in this regard I guess.

Your entire argument is based on the false premise that people (in this instance, Mike) always tell the truth.  Just because Mike says he liked the music and only had a small problem with the lyrics doesn't make it an objective impression.  He has more incentive to say he liked Smile than the observers do to say that he didn't.  I trust the recollections of people like Marilyn, Anderle and Vosse more than I do Mike's statements decades after the fact.

To be clear, I'm not at all in the "Mike killed Smile" camp - as we all know, the whole thing is nowhere near that black and white.  I just don't think the evidence is there to say that he was as supportive as he says he was.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

What I don't get is admitting blame to those who deny it and denying blame to those who admit it. Mike says he didn't hate SMiLE, he didn't like some of the lyrics.

He's the genius, not us.

And Brian and van Dyke and others say he hated it.  You prefer to believe Mike, fine but you should recognize that those that choose to believe the greater number of eye witnesses have an equally valid (and probably with greater numbers more valid) point of view.  What, you think Brian and van and David and Marilyn aren't remembering correctly, are lying, or have an axe to grind?  The same can be said of Mike.

And I'm a genius too!  Murray told me!

No, I assume they are giving their impression. What Mike thought trumps their impression. Anderle also said arguments and dislike between Brian and Van Dyke of their respective lyrics and music is what killed SMiLE and that was within a year of the time, is this true because he said it? It too seems like it is his impression [although he is more specific about this than Mike], probably partly true and partly mistaken. Would we take Van Dyke's and Brian's word on this over Anderle's?

"What Mike thought trumps their impression."

Nope. There is no objective way to know what anyone thinks. All we have are impressions. If everyone at the time believed Mike hated it, and behaved as if he did so, what does it matter what he felt? Didn't he then have some responsibility to make his actual views known? Or was he content to play both sides of the fence?

Well, there is an objective way to know what someone thinks: when someone tells you they didn't hate something, it is their objective thought and not someone else's subjective impression. The impression is wrong at that point. How would Mike be responsible for someone's wrong impression?   The one who formed the wrong impression is responsible for finding out the actual views before spouting their opinion. Mike has corrected this wrong impression repeatedly. How many times does it take?

It's all beside the point, it puts everything backwards. Brian didn't like SMiLE and he scrapped it. We keep trying to blame someone besides Brian or invent reasons why Brian isn't responsible for his likes and wishes and actions but Brian himself says the Boys fought him to save SMiLE. That's Brian saying he was against SMiLE, Boys were for SMiLE. The Boys likes and wants didn't matter and Brian ignored their wishes to keep SMiLE and scrapped it against their wishes because he wanted to. So much for the myth of Brian being sensitive to the Boys wishes in this regard I guess.

Well said, and I, to no avail, keep trying to steer this convo into asking why exactly does it really matter what Mike thought? Brian does whatever he wants, and is the master commander and steamrolls ahead doing as he pleases and the Beach Boys are just his messengers and suddenly he scraps the culmination of his musical life just because Mike asks about a lyric or expresses something other than fawning approval? Even if Mike got in Brian's face and screamed that he freaking hated it and wished Brian would kill Smile: that would be awful, but as I keep pointing out, he showed up for work and did as Brian told him. And that certainly says something!

Bill Wyman didn't like the atmosphere at the house were the Stones were recording Exile On Main Street. He didn't like the drugs, the druggies, the insane hours, and he made his opinion known to the point of being absent for a lot of the sessions (which is why he appears on very few tracks on the album) He also was hurt that Keith or Mick Taylor would play bass on tracks that were recorded at the wee hours without bothering to ask anyone else to contribute. (see, these things are complicated and shaded) .... Alas, the Stones finished the album. If they hadn't, I suppose Bill would be the bad guy. But I don't think so! For one thing, he had a full head of well groomed rock star hair, and for some reason, no matter what bad stories get out about the Stones, they're all cool and none of it matters, but Mike on the other hand........ the guy can't win.

I bring up the Stones to illustrate, once again that bands freaking disagree! ALL THE TIME! In fact, MOST OF THE TIME. How come it's only an issue with The Beach Boys/Mike? ..... Well, that's an easy one: people like to hate Mike! Need to hate Mike! Want to hate Mike!

I think this issue can be looked at as a fair draw!

Yes, Mike had issues with Smile. And this was his right! Like it or not, he had/has the right to his opinion.

I think that's about as clear as it can ever be made. Mike has been very careful about praising Smile but not to the point of where he's sitting there trying to say he loved it dearly and was 100 per cent supportive. So, OK, Mike had issues with it. And, once again, that was has right as a member of the band.

Another thing we can agree on is that Brian made the decision to scrap Smile. The reasons were complicated, and Mike's feelings were a contributing factor. That's life! People are human and complicated. But decisions are decisions. Brian's decision to scrap Smile is a fact. Simple as that.

It's history, but at least now we have an official (and awesome) product!

[Cam Mott]

OK Chris, we'll just disagree.

However to be supposedly non-supportive in the way described of Mike was actually to be supportive of Brian's view because Brian [and Anderle actually] gave the lyrics as one of his reasons for his desire to scrap SMiLE. However, Brian said the Boys were not supportive of his desire to scrap SMiLE. Yet Brian says he scrapped SMiLE over the Boys' objections.

[Jonathan Blum]

Whether Miked Smile or hated it with a passion: he still showed up and sang and provided Brian with whatever he needed of him to make the project work. Who cares really if he hated it with a passion or didn't? The guy showed up and did as Brian told him to. What's the big deal? What's with the burning need to paint Mike as the boogeyman?

Me, I don't want to paint either one of them as a boogeyman.

But I do want to point out that Mike singing the parts, and singing them well, doesn't mean he wasn't clearly negative on the whole thing.

Years ago, when my wife and I were writing for the Doctor Who novel line...  we were handed a new regular character by the editor, which one of the other authors had created.  And we thought she was absolutely a terrible idea.  But we didn't beg out of using her, or do half-hearted work with her -- in fact we sweated bullets to try to make the character work (and got credit in reviews for making the best of a bad idea).  You do that, because your own credibility as a writer (not to mention part of your livelihood) is dependent on being seen to do a good job.

So of course Mike sang the best damn cornfield-crying-crow he could manage.  And nailed it.  But that in no way contradicts him having the clearly vocalized attitude when he *wasn't* at the mic -- attested to by Van Dyke, Marilyn, Brian, et cetera -- of "WTF is this crap".

And anyone who thinks that persistent negativity wouldn't have an effect on a guy who'd already had at least one nervous breakdown, who was also running into doubts about his own abilities at the time, has to do some pretty determined ignoring.

Brian may well still have pulled the plug on Smile even without the pushback from Mike (and arguably others in the band as well).  But in the universe where he got that pushback...  well, it was a sure thing, wasn't it.

Cheers,
Jon Blum

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

One question: just how persistent was this presumed negativity from Mike?

Did he make a stink about VDP's lyric and maybe have a couple other things to say or was he in the studio nonstop complaining while Brian was trying to work?

[Jonathan Blum]

One question: just how persistent was this presumed negativity from Mike?

Persistent enough that he's *still* saying he had problems with the lyrics.

Regards,
Jon Blum

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

And once again, so what?

Really!

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Ever hear that boot where The Beach Boys are working on Slip On Through and after a vocal take by Dennis, Carl hems and haws and says "I dunno, man! I just ain't feelin' it" and then Dennis says "F*$ck you" (and then farts)?

So, if Dennis had decided to scrap the song, it would be all Carl's fault?

[Alan Smith]

Years ago, when my wife and I were writing for the Doctor Who novel line...

I just wanna say what an amazing treat this Board is!!! Not only do I get to celebrate the exploits of an amazing group of guys, I also get exposed to an extraordinary range of people who've made their passions their life and are happy to share; Mr Stephen Desper; the Messrs Ruem and Stebbins; a cricket history nut who knows a thing or two about our band; John Manning and his extraordinary outdoor adventures, and now a Doctor Who novel writer!!!  Let alone all you other cool posters, nice guys, straight shooters and field experts who add and add to the experience.

Thanks all for your continued inspiration  - now, if only Bruce Campbell would reveal himself as a BB nut and long time poster, that would make my day!

[Mike's Beard]

One question: just how persistent was this presumed negativity from Mike?

Did he make a stink about VDP's lyric and maybe have a couple other things to say or was he in the studio nonstop complaining while Brian was trying to work?

The $64,000 question.

One question: just how persistent was this presumed negativity from Mike?

Persistent enough that he's *still* saying he had problems with the lyrics.

Mike is choosing his words more carefully these days. It's much more along the lines of constructive criticism, not just "WTF is this sh*t?"

[Autotune]

He still controled pretty much every aspect of the group, including the drastic (if short-lived) change of their live sound and performance style, no earlier than August 1967. He called the shots, even if the role of the BBs was not that of mere "messengers".

Perhaps but one can't ignore the factors that may have led him to call some shots over others and that those factors share responsibility, in some cases share even more responsibility for those shots than the "caller" himself.

If I agreed, I would condescend that Brian was not responsible for his own failure. Enough of blaming the rest of the world for the demise of Smile.

[adamghost]

I'm glad that people are off blaming Mike for SMiLE bandwagon, but I do feel things have started to push too far in the other direction.

Look, I can tell you as a bandleader...if guys in the band are dragging their feet on a project, if they're not into it, you can be the most hardcore, get things done dictator in the world (and I have been accused of this in my time)...IT MATTERS.  It makes a difference.  I have to agree that just because Mike did a great job in the studio, doesn't mean he wasn't putting the knife into the project when he was off-mic.  I have to believe, based on the weight of the evidence of those who were there and those I've talked to since, that he was.  I mean, it wasn't the guy's nature to keep his mouth shut when he was unhappy about something.

The real point to me is that Mike may have had perfectly valid reasons.  The Bill Wyman comparison is apt.  Love may not have "got" SMiLE in the way you and I might, but he was a guy whose whole livelihood depended on a certain thing happening, and not only was something different happening than what made the guy his living, but it was taking forever and the person in charge of thing was starting to act really weird and the people he was listening to were people he could no longer relate to.

I think you can be fair to Mike and say SMiLE not happening was not solely his fault.  It wasn't.  I do think it's a stretch to imply that he was mostly fine with it all.  I think there's plenty of evidence that he had deep reservations about the project and they were a factor in it being shelved.  BUT...I don't particularly BLAME the guy.  Standing in his shoes, I can see why that's how he might have felt.

[Cam Mott]

Did I mention that Brian himself said the Boys did not want him to scrap SMiLE?  This was less than a year after the event and not a decade or six after the fact. According to Brian they so much did not want Brian to scrape SMiLE that Brian nearly broke up the band by scrapping it anyway. Brian had such personal issue with SMiLE that he was ready to break up the band to scrap SMiLE. Not only did the band work their tales off to make SMiLE happen but according to Brian the Boys went to the brink of breaking up the band to save SMiLE.  Some how we are thinking the problems were with what the band thought about SMiLE and not the problems Brian had with SMiLE?

PS. Again, Mike's having issues with the lyrics was supportive of Brian because Brian had issues with the lyrics as well. We keep claiming this as some sort of oppositional thing between Mike and Brian when they were on the same page on the lyrics, maybe for different reasons, but the same page.  Still the Boys wanted SMiLE to come out, Brian didn't. Brian wasn't the kowtower, he was the kowtowee. We've got to stop trying to make Brian out as a victim and denying what he felt and did. Well, we don't have to but I wish we would.

[hypehat]

One question: just how persistent was this presumed negativity from Mike?

Did he make a stink about VDP's lyric and maybe have a couple other things to say or was he in the studio nonstop complaining while Brian was trying to work?

At least the box goes some way to clarifying this. With the caveat that any "WTF is this" moments would most likely be edited out (and the fabled Cabin Essence session is apparently missing), Mike seems relatively calm and sings his parts without question. He even sounds like he's having fun on most of them! Not MYke Luv!

Listening to the box/sessions in chronological order the other day really drove home that Brian really sounds like he's unravelling towards the end of '66. I could easily believe, although there is of course no evidence this happened, that even questions from the group about the music could rattle him and cause him to doubt the record.

[D Cunningham]

A lot of the brief episodes that are called up in such discussions (Mike and the CabinEssence lyrics, Brian saying this, saying that)...have such an anecdotal sense.  And maybe not much more.  I go to the music and to what Brian was doing at the time--and can't help but believe that he simply felt it wasn't working. And was perhaps correct.

I can list a bunch of parts in the sessions Smile (of the 19 tracks) that seem to come up short.  Especially as regards a larger conceptual/narrative structure that flows and makes sense.  (Look?  bleh)

Compare Pet Sounds...where every song transports.

Although on the other hand, VegaTables...marvelous.

[Bicyclerider]

Did I mention that Brian himself said the Boys did not want him to scrap SMiLE?  This was less than a year after the event and not a decade or six after the fact. According to Brian they so much did not want Brian to scrape SMiLE that Brian nearly broke up the band by scrapping it anyway. Brian had such personal issue with SMiLE that he was ready to break up the band to scrap SMiLE.

Yeah, you keep saying this but that doesn't make it true.  Put the quotes down on the board and we can all chime in as to how to interpret what Brian said- he NEVER said the Beach Boys did not want him to scrap smile and that he did over the Beach Boys objections.  that's your interpretation of the quote.  And by the way, Brian was referring to the nonrelease of one song, Surf's Up, not the entire Smile album in the quote.

Regardless, we all know your opinions on Mike and Brian and why Smile was scrapped - there's no reason to rehash it.  I don't think you're convincing anyone that Mike loved it and was a huge supporter of it that doesn't think so already.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Good call Adam! Let's really be careful not to push too far in the other direction! But I don't think we really are yet. What this has basically come down to is..... everyone's point of view is essentially correct!

Mike had issues with Smile which certainly contributed to Brian's state. Some issues might have been perfectly valid. Regardless, he probably could have handled it better.

Brian made the decision to scrap Smile based upon a host of factors. No one factor seems to be THE reason. In fact, if there had been merely one main reason, Brian probably could have overcome it.

So, this being the situation: persisting that it was Mike Mike Mike Myke makes no real sense and the motivation for insisting so is puzzling.