The Stephen Desper Thread

[Glenn Greenberg]

Quick question for Mr. Desper:

Are you still selling copies of your book RECORDING THE BEACH BOYS?

Thanks!

Yes Glenn, but follow directions on the book site or email me at askswd@webtv.net for book ordering information. I changed things a little. ~swd

Thanks!  Can you post a link to the site?  I had it bookmarked, but the link seems to have expired.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Comments to All:

Thanks for your outlooks on my quey.

The FLAME album is not public domain -- not in the least. So the Fallout Records offering is a bootleg by any other color. What makes me mad is that BRI doesn't seem to give a damn one way or the other, while still not releasing the second bunch of songs that are all mixed and ready to be compiled into a CD. If they don't care about the loss of money from this latest bootleg release of the first album and don't seem to be interested in making additional money on the release of the second CD, then why are they keeping Carl Wilson's, The Flame, and my own hard work on the second album from the fans who deserve to hear the songs that the group did oh so many years ago. I mean, I would like to see them released in a properly mastered CD before I die.  What a sad commentary that one of the Flame members and the producer did not live long enough to see this work released.  What the f--k is BRI's game plan? Anyone got any insight into how they operate? Do we all have to be under six feet of dirt before the second Flame album can be issued? The classy thing that should have been done would have been to issue a "tribute" album when Carl passed on, but a little late for that now. Nevertheless, it's the fans of the old Flame group and those BB fans that appreciate Carl's production techniques that deserve to hear what's still not released. It's About Time -- is not just a song title.

As to exchanging examples of recording techniques of the two BB albums -- Joe asked about BRI or Capitol approaching me.  No, it's the other way around -- I've approached them, but no one is interested.  So, to me it's now a matter of academic, which I believe the Home Recording Act allows for.  Let me go off and find that for you. 

click here for link to Home Audio Recording Act >>>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_Home_Recording_Act

I'll copy Wikipedia's comment that I believe makes the practice of making copies for educational proposes OK.

"The act failed to define "noncommercial use by a consumer" however "In short, the reported legislation [Section 1008] would clearly establish that consumers cannot be sued for making analog or digital audio copies for private noncommercial use." (House Report No. 102-780(I), August 4, 1992)"

Non-commercial use would mean to me that as long as no one makes money with these copies, making them for personal use is OK.

You can read further under the NO RECORDING THEFT Act section, but the more I read, the more unclear it becomes.  I think the RIAA people are way out on a limb with NRT.

The actual Home Audio Recording Act can be read at >>> http://www.virtualrecordings.com/ahra.htm

Note that most all provisions of this act deal with digital copies. I'm not interested in one-to-one digital copies.  I'm interested in analog to digital copes, and the copies are not even true copies.  That is, the copy is not the same as the original.  It is modified with respect to various aspects of its presentation sound field and sound stage.  This act does not address this issue.

Before, when I was offering to make copies of CD's sent to me, one lawyer worred that the copy I made would find its way to become a bootleg version that could then be sold on ebay -- or many copies sold on ebay -- and this would somehow become the subject of a lawsuit back to me since I was the source of the original copy.  So I withdrew my offer.  But I have been studying this issue for several months now and I just can't see the problem if the copy is made for educational reasons. I'm not making a true copy.

The Home Recording Act also fails to address the fact that, technically, any time you play a CD by way of a computer CD player, the computer first makes a copy of the content of the CD within RealPlayer or Windows MediaPlayer and then makes the playback from that file. So if you cannot make a copy legally, anyone playing from their computer is already in violation of the act.  To me it makes the act rather weak.

I would like some more input from you guys before I propose another plan . . .  but we are getting close.

~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Thanks!  Can you post a link to the site?  I had it bookmarked, but the link seems to have expired.

http://community-2.webtv.net/askswd/BookOrderingInfo/index.html

[mike slattery]

hello Stephen

here's a technical question - it involves having a quick listen to the track 'Far' at my Myspace acount if that's ok

www.myspace.com/mikeslattery - its the default song (low quality to keep filesize down)


here's my problem:  the first lot of lead vocals sound slightly out of tune to me (the section where the lead vocal comes in

ie the first lot of 'oooh I'm gonna miss you')

having listened to an older version without the Ohmboyz delay effects I think the vocals are ok and its the wash of effects

that is making them sound out, especially when a chord change comes but the wash from the last section in a different chord

continues, if that makes sense

did you ever have this problem,and if so how did you get out of it..?

many thanks

Mike

[Stephen W. Desper]

Here's my problem:  the first lot of lead vocals sound slightly out of tune to me (the section where the lead vocal comes in . . . did you ever have this problem,and if so how did you get out of it..?

COMMENT TO MIKE:
None of the vocals have offending intonation probems to my ears. I can hear what you are talking about, but I think you are too close to the production.  Put it aside for a week and then listen with fresh ears. 

In order to correct any slight tonal violations I would try reducing the amount of (or eliiminating) the way the trail end of the echo effect turns into a sawtooth waveform or gets treblie (high frequency emphasis).  If you can, try to make the re-entry of the original sound back into the echo loop to first go through a low-pass filter (cut off of highs).  When the singer says the word "miss," the "s" sound gets put into the loop and, frankly, is not musical sounding.  Nice effect, but no musical merit is added by having it there. Further on the word "gona" the "o" of that word gets caught in the loop also.  I think that is the offensive "virtual" vocal you may be hearing.  I still think it all relates back to this sawtooth sound in the echo effect.  I did not hear any of the "answer" background vocals sounding out-of-tune.

If we ever had that kind of problem, it would have been solved by re-singing the track. 

All three songs had good production values. I enjoyed listening to them with my morning coffee, especially "code."   

Hope that helps,  ~swd

[mike slattery]

Here's my problem:  the first lot of lead vocals sound slightly out of tune to me (the section where the lead vocal comes in . . . did you ever have this problem,and if so how did you get out of it..?

COMMENT TO MIKE:
None of the vocals have offending intonation probems to my ears. I can hear what you are talking about, but I think you are too close to the production.  Put it aside for a week and then listen with fresh ears. 

In order to correct any slight tonal violations I would try reducing the amount of (or eliiminating) the way the trail end of the echo effect turns into a sawtooth waveform or gets treblie (high frequency emphasis).  If you can, try to make the re-entry of the original sound back into the echo loop to first go through a low-pass filter (cut off of highs).  When the singer says the word "miss," the "s" sound gets put into the loop and, frankly, is not musical sounding.  Nice effect, but no musical merit is added by having it there. Further on the word "gona" the "o" of that word gets caught in the loop also.  I think that is the offensive "virtual" vocal you may be hearing.  I still think it all relates back to this sawtooth sound in the echo effect.  I did not hear any of the "answer" background vocals sounding out-of-tune.

If we ever had that kind of problem, it would have been solved by re-singing the track. 

All three songs had good production values. I enjoyed listening to them with my morning coffee, especially "code."   

Hope that helps,  ~swd

Hi Stephen
Thank you very much for taking the time to listen and comment, I really appreciate it.

'Far' is not finally mixed yet and your comments are very helpful.

Thanks also for your comment regarding the production values - I produced all 3 tracks at Artisan Audio in Moseley, Birmingham UK.  Engineering by the guys at the studio.  I would classify these as polished demos.

I have over 60 songs in various stages and am recording as fast as I can go - I have 10 prety much fully produced, the next ten will be more stripped down and hopefully wil take a lot less time - these have taken me years!

many thanks

Mike

[Dan Lega]

     Stephen, as I said before I think "technically" you are on sound legal ground.  And as I said, that doesn't mean you can't be sued.  But I think the most likely case would be that they give you time to "cease and desist" before they filed a lawsuit against you. 

     I also think your best bet to limit any culpability is to just give out a few copies.  If they do get upset and try to sue, then you'll have less liability because you only made a few copies for academic purposes.  And if you do only give out a few copies I think the online Beach Boy group is pretty friendly and will gladly redistribute the disc to other folk.  If anyone who gets one of the discs promises to make three copies and send it out free to other folk, who then agree to send out three free discs, etc., etc., then the disc will get around very quickly I think. 

     Also, maybe some of us can check Ebay everyday to see if anyone is selling your disc.  If so, then we can easily contact Ebay and tell them that listing is a bootleg and Ebay will take it down.  This will keep you from any liability in that instance.  Take care, Steve!

        Love and merci,   Dan Lega

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Hi Stephen,

It's great to have you back and I hope you're feeling better.  I have a couple of engineering-related questions based on experiences I had recording this past summer . . .

1.  In your opinion, to what degree of responsibility and how prepared should an engineer be to answer the question, "was that flat?"

2.  On my way home from the studio after mixing, I glanced at the tape box containing my 1/2" and was surprised to see "30 ips" written in the "speed" section of the label.  I suppose I should have noticed something when I was told we would need an extra $30 worth of 1/2" tape to mix four songs, but I had a lot of things to think about at the time.  The bottom line is, I wasn't given an option beforehand - and I definitely would have chosen 15 ips if I had the opportunity to.  I haven't made a stink about it because we didn't have time to do good mixes of everything (one day for four songs) and it's just a demo.  It probably goes w/o saying that the engineer should have asked me.  So, I guess my question is, how much of a difference does it make?  I was later told that it's the studio's philosophy to mix at 30 ips in order to reduce noise and to EQ in more gain to the low frequencies upon playback to make up for the loss.  I'm thinking that maybe I want the "noise," and that the recordings now have a degree of fidelity higher than I desired - they perhaps sound "cleaner" than I wanted.  Is it all in my head?  I'm not very technical or experienced, which is why i'm asking you . . . 

[Dan Lega]

     Steve, I also meant to ask you if you had talked to Alan Boyd lately.  You know he's trying to set up a Beach Boys Store where he'll be selling rare recordings both over the internet and by CD, right?  I would imagine he would love to have all the Flames material be a part of the "merchandise" available at the site.   Or has he said that such a release will not be possible on that site, too?


        Love and merci,    Dan Lega

[aeijtzsche]

Stephen, since you're back and listening to stuff, did you ever see this post I made?  It was first posted right about when you fell ill.  Hopefully you might enjoy listening to the song, as it's recording was entirely inspired by you.


The Original post:

Hey, Stephen, I was going through some stuff this afternoon when I happened across this track:

http://www.someoneliving.com/forgivetwotrack.mp3

Obviously, you're under no obligation to listen to it, but I'm pretty sure it was the first serious recording I did after you started giving me all sorts of tips, so if nothing else you can know your passed-on knowledge is being put to use.  I did everything on it myself, the only thing I didn't do is write the song.  It's supposed to be a conversation between a guy and a girl, which is why I inexplicably change vocal registers at times.  The higher voice is to be replaced by a female at some point.

If anybody else who hasn't heard it before listens and is interested, here is a little rundown of some of the elements of the track.

Drums recorded in my foyer, MXL 993s overhead in spaced pair, SM57 on snare, AKG D112 on kick.

Bass:  Fender Precision through 12" guitar amp played with pick, mic-ed with a single Shure 545 on-axis with the speaker, right against the grille.  I don't believe I took it DI, but if I did it was combined to a mono signal, then later that signal was split and one side was slighly detuned.  I tried doubling the line manually with my Fender Mustang, which is a great sound, but it wasn't working for this song.

The acoustic guitars and mandolins were all done with heavy CTDTing, XY formation.  I believe the intro has two 12-sting acoustics, one six string, and two mandolin parts.

The electric guitar was recorded through the Carvin 12" speaker-ed guitar amp, slightly distorted.  I had a 57 right up close and the 545 about 15 feet back and out where it could pick up some foyer sound.

The piano was recorded in stereo with two Rode NT-1As, and a Shure 546.  Some articficial reverb was added to pad out the sound.

The trumpets were treated as if two trumpeters were present, playing together into one mic, then doubling the first pass.  So I actually recorded each pass in stereo using CTDT, then combined that into mono, then repeated the process.  The mono signals were panned out left and right.

The strings were the most difficult and painstaking to do.  I set up the MXL 993 Small Diaphragm mics in a spaced formation, then set up four chairs underneath, did four stereo passes, then did four more passes in stereo to double the "quartet."  Sadly, I'm not that good at violin, so it's a little out of tune at times.

The vocals were really straightforward.  I did the "male" vocals into my Ribbin mic, the "Female" into my Rode NT-1A.  I comb-filtered the mono signal into stereo for the "verses", double-tracked and panned out the "choruses", and double-tracked the "jazzier" "bridges" but kept both passes down the middle.  I also added a slapback "tape" echo sound to those to make it sound a little denser and "retro".

Thanks for your great tips, Steve.

[Stephen W. Desper]

     Stephen, as I said before I think "technically" you are on sound legal ground.  And as I said, that doesn't mean you can't be sued.  But I think the most likely case would be that they give you time to "cease and desist" before they filed a lawsuit against you. 

 

COMMENT TO DAN:

Most appreciative of your comments.  I've been down that "you have to defend yourself if you are sued" road and know how expensive it can be.  However, I was just thinking of NOT offering any kind of disc on this or any other format.  I was just going to give out my home phone number so that fans could call me and discuss some of the technical issues concerning the recording of SF and SU.  If those discussions over the phone lead to the need to exchange discs for analysis of technique, purely on an intellectual bases, then so be it. No money exchanged, only discs for educational understanding will be exchanged. That will be a condition reached by the fan who calls me, another fan, and that is that. If that fan then wishes to further enlighten other fans who happen to be his friends, that is his or her business.

Alan and I are in communication all the time.  I am currently working on a BB project for him that he has kindly given to me.  He knows my concerns and opinions about The Flame second CD issues.  I know he is trying to make that happen and support his efforts.  Believe me, that if he was not involved in an effort to make such a CD part of reality, I would be more aggressive at getting the songs into the hands of the fans. Both Alan and myself are hoping that the forces at BRI come to their senses soon. It is the fans that are suffering.  I don't understand what the problem is with BMI. I took a deal to them with a $10,000 promotional angle that would have issued all of Carl Wilson's productions with The Flame. BMI let it die.  I also took them a deal with a Hollywood Record Company that incluced a promotional value in the deal worth the value of the deal itself -- BMI could not get it togehter for six months and the sponsor pulled out.  So you tell me.

Now with the new bootleg THE FLAME issue by this English company, and BRI doing nothing about it -- what the hell, if they don't give a damn, why should l I be so straight with all the stuff I have in my liberary?  Am I to die first and then let all the tapes be sold into the market on ebay?  I would at least like to hear what you fans have to say. 

Brian and I are now 65.

Good Listening,

~Stephen W. Desper

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT TO MIKE:

The songs I heard were the type of songs I like to listen to over a loop, so I did listen to them several times while watching the squirrels eating nuts and the birds at the feeder.  That my seem strange, but I found the music wonderful "support" to what I was viewing out the window. Your music entertained me and the production was very very good.  Keep going on your quest.
It is Good Listening,    ~Steve Desper

[Stephen W. Desper]

Hi Stephen,

It's great to have you back and I hope you're feeling better.  I have a couple of engineering-related questions based on experiences I had recording this past summer . . .

1.  In your opinion, to what degree of responsibility and how prepared should an engineer be to answer the question, "was that flat?"

2.  On my way home from the studio after mixing, I glanced at the tape box containing my 1/2" and was surprised to see "30 ips" written in the "speed" section of the label.  I suppose I should have noticed something when I was told we would need an extra $30 worth of 1/2" tape to mix four songs, but I had a lot of things to think about at the time.  The bottom line is, I wasn't given an option beforehand - and I definitely would have chosen 15 ips if I had the opportunity to.  I haven't made a stink about it because we didn't have time to do good mixes of everything (one day for four songs) and it's just a demo.  It probably goes w/o saying that the engineer should have asked me.  So, I guess my question is, how much of a difference does it make?  I was later told that it's the studio's philosophy to mix at 30 ips in order to reduce noise and to EQ in more gain to the low frequencies upon playback to make up for the loss.  I'm thinking that maybe I want the "noise," and that the recordings now have a degree of fidelity higher than I desired - they perhaps sound "cleaner" than I wanted.  Is it all in my head?  I'm not very technical or experienced, which is why i'm asking you . . . 

COMMENT TO UNCOMFORTABLE SEAT LINK:

I can't answer your question "was that flat" because there is no such thing.  Please give me more details and I'll give the answer.

As the engineers evidently knew, 30 IPS will give less noise, but it does suffer from a resonance bumb. This bumb is not eliminated by EQ. So with EQ being used all you get is "almost flat." I think there is an ethical question in using 30 IPS as it costs twice as much in tape costs.  I stopped using it because I found the noise reduction was not worth it.  But that was in the day's of the LP. I ran the multi-track at 30 IPS and the two-track Master Tape at mixdown at 15 IPS.  I liked the sound I got.  Yes, the bass was not true at 30 IPS, but since this was the multi-track running at 30 IPS, any EQ problems could be corrected in the mixdown.  Runing the master at 15 IPS assured that corrections made durning the mix would be true to the master tape. 

In today's day of digital CD with almost no addible noise, there is something to be said for using 30 IPS and then correcting for the bass resonance bumb in mastering to CD.   

However, there still remains the ethical question of should they ask you first.  I would have.  But if you gave the engineer the freedom to do the best recording he could do for you, then I would not make an issue of it.  He made his decision and that is that.  Tape costs are little in comparison to the overall production costs. Given that you are mastering in 1/2 inch (2-track), then 30 IPS is not an unusual mastering speed.

I don't understand why you would not want the highest fidelity you could obtain.  That reasoning is outside of my objectives.  By your line of thinking, maybe you should consider using "your brother's battery operated cassettee recorder" for your next mastering session.  HA  

I think your engineer made the correct decision.  Just kindly ask him to consult with you next time. 

Best to you,   ~swd

[Uncomfortable Seat]

Re: The Stephen Desper Thread