The Stephen Desper Thread

[Mitchell]

what synths did you guys have in hand when recording 20/20? for example, what made the white noise sound in the beginning of 'Never Learn Not to Love"?  its very 'spacey' and cool for lack of a better term.

The start of Never Learn Not To Love is a cymbal crash, slowed down, played in reverse, if I recall correctly.

[Sir Rob]

I think it was the real Mr. Desper. You have to remember, he is an engineer and a true expert in this area, but he is not a historian.

Hmmm...you don't need to exactly be a historian to choke on your cornflakes reading some of that stuff. 

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT TO ALL --

Yes it was a typo. (Those late night postings again.)  Brian & Parks met in Feb. 1966, not '67.  That does not change the gist of my statement:

"So what I'm saying is that these sessions were not referred to as Smile sessions by those involved with them at that time.  The reference to Smile came later.  I believe it was Brian and Parks that thought up the name "Smile" to replace an earlier reference name or "working title" of Dumb Angle.  This was the album title or concept for an album title Brian had when he started working in 1961 on what was to become SMiLE in 1967 1966 and was completed in 2005. I don't think this is in disagreement with anything that has been printed before . . ."

Maybe my personal perspective is not in alignment with the public historical perspective as told by "historians," but then it is not a second-hand accounting either.

I would add that many of the tidbits I worked with to build on with Carl's direction, as Brian was unavailable, came from the so-called Smile-era. As far as I'm concerned these were pre-smile or before 1966.

When I was engineering for the most part no one referred to the old Smile concept songs as part of a Smile album amoung themselves. Maybe to the public when pressed, but in a working atmosphere they were just independent songs or song parts Brian was working on, had completed or abandon.  At the time Smile was a concept, not an album.

Please don't mis-construe what I said.  I DID NOT say that Smile did not exist as an album concept.  I am saying that the present SMiLE release is a 2005 colaboration by Brian & Parks based on some songs and some song parts that were around since 1961.  Six years after 1961 the idea of Smile came into fruition; thirty-nine years later the reality of SMiLE was released.  

Just because 50,000 record jackets were printed does not an album make.  Record jackets are printed months before release dates as are press stories and publication hype.  Brian changed his mind at the last minute, so Smile remained a concept.

~swd    

[Stephen W. Desper]

what synths did you guys have in hand when recording 20/20? for example, what made the white noise sound in the beginning of 'Never Learn Not to Love"?  its very 'spacey' and cool for lack of a better term.

The start of Never Learn Not To Love is a cymbal crash, slowed down, played in reverse, if I recall correctly.

Correct. ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

Hmmm...you don't need to exactly be a historian to choke on your cornflakes reading some of that stuff. 

What does that mean?  ~swd

[Jonas]

what synths did you guys have in hand when recording 20/20? for example, what made the white noise sound in the beginning of 'Never Learn Not to Love"?  its very 'spacey' and cool for lack of a better term.

The start of Never Learn Not To Love is a cymbal crash, slowed down, played in reverse, if I recall correctly.

thats sexy. the fact that it was slowed down is what tricked my ear to think it was a synth...when I reverse a crash I just keep it at the same speed which gives me a quick white noise, never thought about slowing it down...

but theres something to it...just gives it a haunting feel to the sound...theres nothing else layered into it?

[Jeff Mason]

OK, so you are basically saying the same thing we all are.  It just sounded like you were saying that the term "Smile" was never used in 1966 to describe the work that Brian was undertaking and only after the fact were the sessions labelled "Smile".  Since the album was never finished, it is true to say that Smile was a concept (with many tracks created to try to achieve that concept) and not an album.  Different verbage but the same basic gist.  That's cool.

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

Hmmm...you don't need to exactly be a historian to choke on your cornflakes reading some of that stuff. 

What does that mean?  ~swd

Depending upon how many cornflakes he was eating at the time, it may mean we have one less board member. 

[Stephen W. Desper]

Hmmm...you don't need to exactly be a historian to choke on your cornflakes reading some of that stuff. 

What does that mean?  ~swd

Depending upon how many cornflakes he was eating at the time, it may mean we have one less board member. 

I don't understand the cornflakes reference.  What does that mean?  Is cornflakes a slang term?  In Florida is could mean "corny."  In California it could mean "flaky."  Is my age showing or what?   ~swd

[Charles LePage @ ComicList]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

[Stephen W. Desper]

what synths did you guys have in hand when recording 20/20? for example, what made the white noise sound in the beginning of 'Never Learn Not to Love"?  its very 'spacey' and cool for lack of a better term.

The start of Never Learn Not To Love is a cymbal crash, slowed down, played in reverse, if I recall correctly.

thats sexy. the fact that it was slowed down is what tricked my ear to think it was a synth...when I reverse a crash I just keep it at the same speed which gives me a quick white noise, never thought about slowing it down...

but theres something to it...just gives it a haunting feel to the sound...theres nothing else layered into it?

To be more exact:  The sound is of a cymbal crash or a crash cymbal being beaten into full excitation with a cotton mallet and left to decay. It was recorded using Dolby A-type (professional version) and unresolved.  That gave the slowed down decay of the crash extra emphasis to the high harmonics so it did not sound dull. I also road gain or turned up the volume of the microphone as the sound decayed to stretch it out.  Also there was a normal speed crash or decay of a highly excited cymbal added on top of the slowed-down version to give more high harmonic identification to the sound as the song enters. ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

[Jonas]

Also there was a normal speed crash or decay of a highly excited cymbal added on top of the slowed-down version to give more high harmonic identification to the sound as the song enters. ~swd

I think thats it! Now, if I may ask what is 'Dolby A-type' is it the actual reel-to-reel machine or is it the type of tape you were using? and what does it mean that it was recorded unresolved? (sorry if this is a dumb question, never seen that terminology)

So you turned up the gain as the crash was decaying live? This is the same effect the beatles did for the last note they played on the piano in the song 'A Day in the Life'...cool little coincidence

[Sir Rob]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

Charles is right - I did mean choking on one's cornflakes with astonishment but in connection with what you were saying about Smile rather than any reference to Dennis.   

[Stephen W. Desper]

I think thats it! Now, if I may ask what is 'Dolby A-type' is it the actual reel-to-reel machine or is it the type of tape you were using? and what does it mean that it was recorded unresolved? (sorry if this is a dumb question, never seen that terminology)

Here is a photo of the Professional Dolby A-type used in studios of that time.



Two were needed for stereo.  It is a noise reduction device that upon recording compresses high frequencies and stresses them as they are recorded.  In playback of the Dolby encoding, the decoding reverses the stress of highs and re-instates the dynamics of the top end.  If you don't resolve the encoding it sounds more top-end and elongated due to the applied compression.  Sometimes you use these studio devices in ways than they were otherwise designed to be used to get a sound. 

That was 1966 or so.  Today Dolby type B is used in cassette recording and is on a chip.   Back then it was the size of two large boxes. In professional use, Dolby A-type has been replace by Dolby SR. ~swd

[Stephen W. Desper]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

Charles is right - I did mean choking on one's cornflakes with astonishment but in connection with what you were saying about Smile rather than any reference to Dennis.   

OK.   Well, I hope we have all the SMiLE and Smile confusion resolved now.  ~swd

[Sir Rob]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

Charles is right - I did mean choking on one's cornflakes with astonishment but in connection with what you were saying about Smile rather than any reference to Dennis.   

OK.   Well, I hope we have all the SMiLE and Smile confusion resolved now.  ~swd

Well, I might be missing something here (as I have not been following the thread right through but glancing back after observing the unfolding controversy) but you said: "The earliest reference to a "smile" album name I can find is 1979 in a quote from Mike Love. "  But that Smile album sleeve is from, you say, 1967 (others say 1966).

[Jonas]

Stephen,

So basically anything you recorded that was from the mid-high range you would run through the Dolby-A? As an insert? (Microphone -> Pre-Amp - Dolby-A -> Tape) or would you record everything and then send it to the Dolby-A machine and back? Is the encoding recorded on tape? Ive always seen the DOLBY brand on different equipment but I never really understood what it did (except provide 'hi-fi stereo' :x)

[Stephen W. Desper]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

Charles is right - I did mean choking on one's cornflakes with astonishment but in connection with what you were saying about Smile rather than any reference to Dennis.   

OK.   Well, I hope we have all the SMiLE and Smile confusion resolved now.  ~swd

Well, I might be missing something here (as I have not been following the thread right through but glancing back after observing the unfolding controversy) but you said: "The earliest reference to a "smile" album name I can find is 1979 in a quote from Mike Love. "  But that Smile album sleeve is from, you say, 1967 (others say 1966).

The reference to Mike Love was to show how little Smile was talked about in the press.  It was a dead album by then.  Suggest you go back and read the entire thread if you want to understand how it unfolded.  I think the confusion is cleared up now -- I hope.  I have said nothing new, just in a different way. ~swd

[Sir Rob]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

Charles is right - I did mean choking on one's cornflakes with astonishment but in connection with what you were saying about Smile rather than any reference to Dennis.   

OK.   Well, I hope we have all the SMiLE and Smile confusion resolved now.  ~swd

Well, I might be missing something here (as I have not been following the thread right through but glancing back after observing the unfolding controversy) but you said: "The earliest reference to a "smile" album name I can find is 1979 in a quote from Mike Love. "  But that Smile album sleeve is from, you say, 1967 (others say 1966).

The reference to Mike Love was to show how little Smile was talked about in the press.  It was a dead album by then.  Suggest you go back and read the entire thread if you want to understand how it unfolded.  I think the confusion is cleared up now -- I hope.  I have said nothing new, just in a different way. ~swd

OK - I take your meaning there.  Thanks for clarifying.

[Stephen W. Desper]

Stephen,

So basically anything you recorded that was from the mid-high range you would run through the Dolby-A? As an insert? (Microphone -> Pre-Amp - Dolby-A -> Tape) or would you record everything and then send it to the Dolby-A machine and back? Is the encoding recorded on tape? Ive always seen the DOLBY brand on different equipment but I never really understood what it did (except provide 'hi-fi stereo' :x)

F.Y.I.
How Dolby Noise Reduction Works
~swd

[Andrew G. Doe]

I think cornflakes in this case refers to the breakfast cereal.  As in, reading something astonishing while eating and choking on the food you are eating because you are, well, astonished.

Oh, I see.  There are many stories about Dennis I will take to my grave that would cause you to upheave your cornflakes in astonishment. So his antics at Capitol were just the tip of the iceburg.   ~swd

Charles is right - I did mean choking on one's cornflakes with astonishment but in connection with what you were saying about Smile rather than any reference to Dennis.   

OK.   Well, I hope we have all the SMiLE and Smile confusion resolved now.  ~swd

Well, I might be missing something here (as I have not been following the thread right through but glancing back after observing the unfolding controversy) but you said: "The earliest reference to a "smile" album name I can find is 1979 in a quote from Mike Love. "  But that Smile album sleeve is from, you say, 1967 (others say 1966).

The reference to Mike Love was to show how little Smile was talked about in the press.  It was a dead album by then.  Suggest you go back and read the entire thread if you want to understand how it unfolded.  I think the confusion is cleared up now -- I hope.  I have said nothing new, just in a different way. ~swd

OK - I take your meaning there.  Thanks for clarifying.

Melody Maker  March 1972 - Carl talked in some detail about what was going to be on the Smile album that was set to be released that fall

[Glenn Greenberg]

Melody Maker  March 1972 - Carl talked in some detail about what was going to be on the Smile album that was set to be released that fall

Is there any way of seeing that article? Is it available online, by any chance? I'd love to read it!

[Andrew G. Doe]

NME w/e 27 May 1967: Bruce, interviewed in the dressing room - "I've got some tapes at home of the new tracks to be on the Smile LP"

Disc & Music Echo (I think) w/e 18 February: Brian "I want to keep as much of Smile a surprise as possible".

The Carl thing in 1972 is on p,128 of Look ! Listen ! Vibrate ! Smile!

[Stephen W. Desper]

COMMENT TO ALL --

I did not say there were NO press mentions of a Smile project, I said they were far and few between.  You can dig them up but the point is you must dig to find them.  The Smile name is not in every interview of those times.  I doubt you will find anything before '66.  ~swd