How would the band of done under Bruce's Direction

[GuyOnTheBeach]

The "Tears in The Morning" thread got me thinking, how well would they have done with Bruce taking control in the 70's (I know he wasn't in the band for the majority of this time, but bare with me), of all the Beach Boys (except maybe Dennis) he was the one who could probably compete with Brian's sound to a degree, he's a classically trained musician and has respect for Brian and his work (not saying that the other's don't but he seems to respect Brian on a level of artistry that most the other's didn't really until later). He also seemed to be the best commercial writer of the band in the 70's (Disney Girls having 2 covers my popular musicians, "I Write The Songs" being more than a little popular), he was also onto disco before it had started to fade, having a minor success with the track "Pipeline", although I'm not a huge fan of disco, I think had the "Here Comes The Night" remake been done for "15 Big Ones" instead of "L.A" it would have been a much bigger hit.

Although not being a family or founding member probably would have ruled this out even had he of been in the band throughout the 70's it's still a thought that I find interesting to mull over.

[adamghost]

1974, yeah, I could see it.  He would have been in tune with pop radio at the times, and ENDLESS SUMMER would have put the band in a different marketplace environment.  At the point when he left, there was still the counterculture gap to contend with, and Bruce was out of sync with that. 

[runnersdialzero]

[Mr. Cohen]

It wouldn't have worked. Bruce doesn't have a commandeering type of personality. He could never have successfully pushed his vision on the group. In fact, Bruce was sole producer of Keepin' The Summer Alive, and look at how THAT turned out.  It has touches of Bruce, but it ends up becoming a weird hodgepodge between Bruce ideas and Beach Boys ideas.

We got "Endless Harmony" from Bruce, which is a decent song, but it has less genuine emotion than the songs he wrote earlier in his career had.

He also was the one that insisted that "When Girls Get Together" be released. I personally like that song, but most Beach Boys fans seem to hate it.

However, I do really like Bruce's work on "Santa Ana Winds", though. I can't prove it, but those strings sound like Bruce to me.

"Goin' On" is a travesty, though. He took a song about lost love and hopelessness, and gave a super saccharine sound that seems disconnected emotionally from the lyrics and main melody.

[b00ts]

It wouldn't have worked. Bruce doesn't have a commandeering type of personality. He could never have successfully pushed his vision on the group. In fact, Bruce was sole producer of Keepin' The Summer Alive, and look at how THAT turned out.  It has touches of Bruce, but it ends up becoming a weird hodgepodge between Bruce ideas and Beach Boys ideas.

We got "Endless Harmony" from Bruce, which is a decent song, but it has less genuine emotion than the songs he wrote earlier in his career had.

He also was the one that insisted that "When Girls Get Together" be released. I personally like that song, but most Beach Boys fans seem to hate it.

However, I do really like Bruce's work on "Santa Ana Winds", though. I can't prove it, but those strings sound like Bruce to me.

"Goin' On" is a travesty, though. He took a song about lost love and hopelessness, and gave a super saccharine sound that seems disconnected emotionally from the lyrics and main melody.

I agree with most of what you said, but I think the production of "Goin' On" works precisely because it juxtaposes the slick, 1980 pop sound with a heartbroken love song.

Then again, I have never heard the allegedly superb early version of "Goin' On."  If anyone can describe it to me in great, evocative detail almost akin to actually hearing the track, please Private Message me.

[JohnMill]

"Disney Girls" in my opinion the best Beach Boys song that Brian didn't write.  Man I love that song especially the middle eight with the acapella bit like "Sloop John B." ("Church...bingo chances and old time dances") and then the hum - Wow love it!

[Jim V.]

It wouldn't have worked. Bruce doesn't have a commandeering type of personality. He could never have successfully pushed his vision on the group. In fact, Bruce was sole producer of Keepin' The Summer Alive, and look at how THAT turned out.  It has touches of Bruce, but it ends up becoming a weird hodgepodge between Bruce ideas and Beach Boys ideas.

We got "Endless Harmony" from Bruce, which is a decent song, but it has less genuine emotion than the songs he wrote earlier in his career had.

He also was the one that insisted that "When Girls Get Together" be released. I personally like that song, but most Beach Boys fans seem to hate it.

However, I do really like Bruce's work on "Santa Ana Winds", though. I can't prove it, but those strings sound like Bruce to me.

"Goin' On" is a travesty, though. He took a song about lost love and hopelessness, and gave a super saccharine sound that seems disconnected emotionally from the lyrics and main melody.

I agree with most of what you said, but I think the production of "Goin' On" works precisely because it juxtaposes the slick, 1980 pop sound with a heartbroken love song.

Then again, I have never heard the allegedly superb early version of "Goin' On."  If anyone can describe it to me in great, evocative detail almost akin to actually hearing the track, please Private Message me.

I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about, but there is something called "Why Didn't I Tell You" which is an early version of "Goin' On" with cool dream breaks that aren't featured in the final song. Is that the supposed "superior" version?

[b00ts]

"Disney Girls" in my opinion the best Beach Boys song that Brian didn't write.  Man I love that song especially the middle eight with the acapella bit like "Sloop John B." ("Church...bingo chances and old time dances") and then the hum - Wow love it!

"Disney Girls" is a beautiful song, and it is defiantly and aggressively square, almost the polar opposite of "Student Demonstration Time," which seems to strive to be edgy and political and falls somewhat flat.

In contrast, "Disney Girls" is so far away from the tone of most of "Surf's Up" that is paradoxically fits perfectly right in the middle of the album; it is a respite from the socio-political turmoil of the time that is discussed elsewhere on the album, and in the greater context it serves as a much more melancholy, yearning song than it might appear upon first listen.

[b00ts]

It wouldn't have worked. Bruce doesn't have a commandeering type of personality. He could never have successfully pushed his vision on the group. In fact, Bruce was sole producer of Keepin' The Summer Alive, and look at how THAT turned out.  It has touches of Bruce, but it ends up becoming a weird hodgepodge between Bruce ideas and Beach Boys ideas.

We got "Endless Harmony" from Bruce, which is a decent song, but it has less genuine emotion than the songs he wrote earlier in his career had.

He also was the one that insisted that "When Girls Get Together" be released. I personally like that song, but most Beach Boys fans seem to hate it.

However, I do really like Bruce's work on "Santa Ana Winds", though. I can't prove it, but those strings sound like Bruce to me.

"Goin' On" is a travesty, though. He took a song about lost love and hopelessness, and gave a super saccharine sound that seems disconnected emotionally from the lyrics and main melody.

I agree with most of what you said, but I think the production of "Goin' On" works precisely because it juxtaposes the slick, 1980 pop sound with a heartbroken love song.

Then again, I have never heard the allegedly superb early version of "Goin' On."  If anyone can describe it to me in great, evocative detail almost akin to actually hearing the track, please Private Message me.

I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about, but there is something called "Why Didn't I Tell You" which is an early version of "Goin' On" with cool dream breaks that aren't featured in the final song. Is that the supposed "superior" version?

Thanks Jim. That sounds like the one. I wasn't aware of the alternate title. Hope I get to hear it one day.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Me too.

I personally believe that KTSA could have been a lot better with Bruce not at the helm. The earlier version of Oh Darlin' for instance was so much better. Carl may have had a better voice than Brian at that point, but Brian's vocal IMHO had more soul. So yeah, that is something that I one day would love to hear.

[b00ts]

Me too.

I personally believe that KTSA could have been a lot better with Bruce not at the helm. The earlier version of Oh Darlin' for instance was so much better. Carl may have had a better voice than Brian at that point, but Brian's vocal IMHO had more soul. So yeah, that is something that I one day would love to hear.

This is the thing - we sort of know how the band would do under Bruce's direction from the results of Light Album and, to a greater extent since he was sole producer, Keepin' The Summer Alive.

Second-guessing any Beach Boys decision post-1976 seems futile because they often almost pathologically chose the least artistically credible and least aesthetically pleasing options when it came to track sequencing/selection, production, and arrangements. Love You is an exception to this, of course, and truly great songs would slip through the cracks here and there. About the only consistent thing that survived was the group's harmonic ability.

This in spite of the fact that the group had superbly talented people working with them. Perhaps there were too many cooks; listening to Beach Boys 1985 and looking at the songwriting credits, or the three producers on Light Album, makes me think that things may have been simplified by having the group be relatively self-sufficient, as they were on Sunflower and Surf's Up.

"Love You" is the work of an auteur, and is a very consistent album, so it stands as a delightful exception to all of the above. Design by committee can work when it is a close-knit group like The Beach Boys were in the late 60s/early 70s, but by this time the boys were dealing with myriad personal and business problems, combined with discord within the group. This is a huge reason for the quality drop and no one could save them - witness the events of the late 90s for an example.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I have mixed feelings. LALA and KTSA were actually an approvement to the MIU production. Although, I am convinced that the LA songs were produced more by Carl and Dennis then Bruce. Except for HCTN. I respect Bruce's music from 69-71, but he also released an uninspired solo album in 77. To me Bruce was an excellent musician with very little soul.

On another not, does anyone know how much Carl produced after Love You? Did he control his own songs?

[kookadams]

Creatively the Beach Boys were done by that time anyway. LA Light and KTSA are very hit&miss, overall very weak albums compared to anything before em. Its been said before and I concur that Love You was the last great album they made. In the early 60s, and late 60s/early 70s Bruce was great but as far as producing the BBs and his '77 solo album are fuckin lame.

[b00ts]

Creatively the Beach Boys were done by that time anyway. LA Light and KTSA are very hit&miss, overall very weak albums compared to anything before em. Its been said before and I concur that Love You was the last great album they made. In the early 60s, and late 60s/early 70s Bruce was great but as far as producing the BBs and his '77 solo album are f*ckin lame.

His production formula on "Goin' Public" is basically this:

- Take Beach Boys or other song that I have already written
- Slow down the tempo
- Record it blandly
- Profit!

I think a weakness of Bruce's is that he is not a prolific songwriter judging by his recorded output. It's a shame because he is very good at writing. He also makes a great bellhop.

[brother john]

This is the thing - we sort of know how the band would do under Bruce's direction from the results of Light Album and, to a greater extent since he was sole producer, Keepin' The Summer Alive [...]

You're joking, right? LA Light Album is superb. Its not Pet Sounds, but its brilliantly produced and has great songs on it.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

This is the thing - we sort of know how the band would do under Bruce's direction from the results of Light Album and, to a greater extent since he was sole producer, Keepin' The Summer Alive [...]

You're joking, right? LA Light Album is superb. Its not Pet Sounds, but its brilliantly produced and has great songs on it.

Even though Bruce was considered the producer, I bet that Good Timin, Goin South, Full Sail and Angel Come Home were produced by Carl, Love Surrounds Me and Baby Blue produced by Dennis, Lady Lynda by Al? and I heard Dennis helped him arrange it (according to Stebbons I believe) and Brian produced Shortnin Bread. So that leaves Here Comes the Night and Sumahama.

[GuyOnTheBeach]

It's true that Bruce didn't have the most prolific songwriting, but I do enjoy his tracks a lot (with the BB, even I can't tolerate much of Goin' Public), did some GREAT pre-Beach Boy stuff too. The songs of his which are on BB lps I've found are usually amongst my favourite on their respective album, specifically "She Believes In Love Again" that should of been the lead single from that album, it had the right sound for 1985, wasn't trying to creepily sing like an 18-year old again and had that catchy middle-8, but being the 3rd single from any album is usually a fate worse than being left unreleased for a track's success, it was doomed... doomed I tell ya!

Anyway back to point, that lack of proficiency probably was something I neglected to realize when I started this thread haha. Still something to ponder anyways.

[Aegir]

This is the thing - we sort of know how the band would do under Bruce's direction from the results of Light Album and, to a greater extent since he was sole producer, Keepin' The Summer Alive [...]

You're joking, right? LA Light Album is superb. Its not Pet Sounds, but its brilliantly produced and has great songs on it.

Even though Bruce was considered the producer, I bet that Good Timin, Goin South, Full Sail and Angel Come Home were produced by Carl, Love Surrounds Me and Baby Blue produced by Dennis, Lady Lynda by Al? and I heard Dennis helped him arrange it (according to Stebbons I believe) and Brian produced Shortnin Bread. So that leaves Here Comes the Night and Sumahama.

What you're doing here is "I like these songs so they weren't produced by Bruce, which means Bruce only produced the worst two songs on the album."

[willy]

LALA is a lovely shimmering warm late-afternoon long shadows album. (Apart from, that is, HCTN which I actually quite like.)

[adamghost]

I've heard L.A.'s production criticized by people whose opinions I respect, but I personally love the production on that record.  Vocally one of my very favorite BBs albums (I found out later a lot of my favorite parts are just Carl and Bruce multitracked).  The production on KTSA is pretty bad though.  The tracks themselves are not horrible, but they lack punch and the whole album sounds really thin and processed in a bad way.  It sounds like someone took the master tapes and squeezed the bejeesus out of them.  That does lend some credence to Carl's hand at the board...and let's not forget James William Guercio.

Sometimes, and especially in the Beach Boys' case, you just need someone that every player can talk to and doesn't hate.  In '79-'80, that was Bruce.

[STE]

I've heard L.A.'s production criticized by people whose opinions I respect, but I personally love the production on that record.  Vocally one of my very favorite BBs albums (I found out later a lot of my favorite parts are just Carl and Bruce multitracked).  The production on KTSA is pretty bad though.  The tracks themselves are not horrible, but they lack punch and the whole album sounds really thin and processed in a bad way.  It sounds like someone took the master tapes and squeezed the bejeesus out of them.  That does lend some credence to Carl's hand at the board...and let's not forget James William Guercio.

Sometimes, and especially in the Beach Boys' case, you just need someone that every player can talk to and doesn't hate.  In '79-'80, that was Bruce.

True, and in 2011 that guy seems to be Joe Thomas..


I always thought that the production is not the only reason why KTSA sounds so thin and weak.
If I'm not mistaken (I don't have it in front of me) KTSA was recorded at Mike Love's mobile studio. 
The recordings could have been of poor quality to start with and Bruce didn't have much to work with.  I find it hard to believe that in about one year Bruce would change his production style and values so radically.
Also, KTSA doesn't sound too different than "Looking Back with Love", which also (if I recall correctly) was recorded at Mike's mobile studio.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

This is the thing - we sort of know how the band would do under Bruce's direction from the results of Light Album and, to a greater extent since he was sole producer, Keepin' The Summer Alive [...]

You're joking, right? LA Light Album is superb. Its not Pet Sounds, but its brilliantly produced and has great songs on it.

Even though Bruce was considered the producer, I bet that Good Timin, Goin South, Full Sail and Angel Come Home were produced by Carl, Love Surrounds Me and Baby Blue produced by Dennis, Lady Lynda by Al? and I heard Dennis helped him arrange it (according to Stebbons I believe) and Brian produced Shortnin Bread. So that leaves Here Comes the Night and Sumahama.

What you're doing here is "I like these songs so they weren't produced by Bruce, which means Bruce only produced the worst two songs on the album."

I don't have proof, just saying the Dennis and Carl songs sound like something they would do themselves. In fact Love Surrounds Me is not much different then on the Bambu cd. Although, Full Sail and Goin South I suppose could've been Bruce. As for Al's song, Jon Stebbons (I believe it was him) mentioned that Dennis helped him arrange it.

The only reason I left out Sumahama is because Mike didn't likely get into arrangements and producing as much.

[GuyOnTheBeach]

I've heard L.A.'s production criticized by people whose opinions I respect, but I personally love the production on that record.  Vocally one of my very favorite BBs albums (I found out later a lot of my favorite parts are just Carl and Bruce multitracked).  The production on KTSA is pretty bad though.  The tracks themselves are not horrible, but they lack punch and the whole album sounds really thin and processed in a bad way.  It sounds like someone took the master tapes and squeezed the bejeesus out of them.  That does lend some credence to Carl's hand at the board...and let's not forget James William Guercio.

Sometimes, and especially in the Beach Boys' case, you just need someone that every player can talk to and doesn't hate.  In '79-'80, that was Bruce.

If I recall, I read something about some kind of processor used on KTSA, I can't remember the technicalities but I believe it had some negative impact on the sound in the end, if anyone knows more about what I'm going on about they may be able to shed some more light on it.

[shelter]

Here's a thought...

Maybe Bruce SHOULD have been in charge after 1967. Just think about it: he is a classically trained but open minded musician, an easy going person and someone who's not too proud to help someone else take the spotlights... He could've been The Beach Boys' own George Martin. I think that Dennis and Carl (and maybe Al) never fully lived up to their creative potential (especially as songwriters I feel that they had more in them than what eventually came out), they probably could have used their own George Martin...

[SMiLE Brian]

I disagree about the idea of Bruce being in charge, he would have taken them in the direction of groups like Bread.