How would the band of done under Bruce's Direction

[adamghost]

I've heard L.A.'s production criticized by people whose opinions I respect, but I personally love the production on that record.  Vocally one of my very favorite BBs albums (I found out later a lot of my favorite parts are just Carl and Bruce multitracked).  The production on KTSA is pretty bad though.  The tracks themselves are not horrible, but they lack punch and the whole album sounds really thin and processed in a bad way.  It sounds like someone took the master tapes and squeezed the bejeesus out of them.  That does lend some credence to Carl's hand at the board...and let's not forget James William Guercio.

Sometimes, and especially in the Beach Boys' case, you just need someone that every player can talk to and doesn't hate.  In '79-'80, that was Bruce.

If I recall, I read something about some kind of processor used on KTSA, I can't remember the technicalities but I believe it had some negative impact on the sound in the end, if anyone knows more about what I'm going on about they may be able to shed some more light on it.

Yeah, I remember someone saying that (it may have been the Aphex Aural Exciter), and I think they have a point.

I run a small studio out of my home, and I'm consistently amazed at how many times I take my stuff into bigger studios with a lot of gear and the stuff done here with just a small amount of outboard gear sounds better.  If you don't know to use the gadgets, they can really screw up your sound.  Especially something new where no one has enough experience with it to say "dude, this sucks."

[GuyOnTheBeach]

I've heard L.A.'s production criticized by people whose opinions I respect, but I personally love the production on that record.  Vocally one of my very favorite BBs albums (I found out later a lot of my favorite parts are just Carl and Bruce multitracked).  The production on KTSA is pretty bad though.  The tracks themselves are not horrible, but they lack punch and the whole album sounds really thin and processed in a bad way.  It sounds like someone took the master tapes and squeezed the bejeesus out of them.  That does lend some credence to Carl's hand at the board...and let's not forget James William Guercio.

Sometimes, and especially in the Beach Boys' case, you just need someone that every player can talk to and doesn't hate.  In '79-'80, that was Bruce.

If I recall, I read something about some kind of processor used on KTSA, I can't remember the technicalities but I believe it had some negative impact on the sound in the end, if anyone knows more about what I'm going on about they may be able to shed some more light on it.

Yeah, I remember someone saying that (it may have been the Aphex Aural Exciter), and I think they have a point.

I run a small studio out of my home, and I'm consistently amazed at how many times I take my stuff into bigger studios with a lot of gear and the stuff done here with just a small amount of outboard gear sounds better.  If you don't know to use the gadgets, they can really screw up your sound.  Especially something new where no one has enough experience with it to say "dude, this sucks."

That's the one I think, the Aphex Aural Exciter.

And that's pretty much my argument on the sound quality of the Summer in Paradise album, no one had really used pro-tools before so there wasn't anything to really compare the sound against.. although that still doesn't excuse the quality of most the music on that...

[adamghost]

There were a lot of tech specs on the notes of the KTSA album, weren't there?  Like they sync'd two 24 tracks together, and some other stuff?  Just the psychological need to put tech specs on a pop album like that, with all due respect to Steve Desper (who really was a whiz), spells trouble. 

[filledeplage]

"Disney Girls" in my opinion the best Beach Boys song that Brian didn't write.  Man I love that song especially the middle eight with the acapella bit like "Sloop John B." ("Church...bingo chances and old time dances") and then the hum - Wow love it!

"Disney Girls" is a beautiful song, and it is defiantly and aggressively square, almost the polar opposite of "Student Demonstration Time," which seems to strive to be edgy and political and falls somewhat flat.

In contrast, "Disney Girls" is so far away from the tone of most of "Surf's Up" that is paradoxically fits perfectly right in the middle of the album; it is a respite from the socio-political turmoil of the time that is discussed elsewhere on the album, and in the greater context it serves as a much more melancholy, yearning song than it might appear upon first listen.

That is a really interesting analysis...I really like "Student Demonstration Time," as I was a college student at the time of the height of the Vietnam War protests across the United States...on some level, touring the colleges in those years, the Beach Boys, particularly Mike Love, "felt our pain" and rage as against the war, and protest against other injustices, and did not have their heads in "the sand" as it were, in terms of being in real touch with the world and the positions of their fans.   The whole concept of the danger of a wild mob, the police moving in against them, were well articulated in that song.  Ultimately, protest, activism and all that great music, changed this country, for the better. 

Disney Girls, sort of provides a place to put some hope, that life will go on, after the chaos, with the concept of leisure time, and normalcy, when the country was trapped in a vortex of intensity, winter and summer and determination to bring the troops on.  It was a bright respite from the socio-political turmoil of the day but "defiant, aggressive squareness" seems a mite extreme...I like to think it may have been conceptualized with an idyllic nostalgic rear view mirror, reflecting on a much simpler time...Nothing square about that...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Here's a thought...

Maybe Bruce SHOULD have been in charge after 1967. Just think about it: he is a classically trained but open minded musician, an easy going person and someone who's not too proud to help someone else take the spotlights... He could've been The Beach Boys' own George Martin. I think that Dennis and Carl (and maybe Al) never fully lived up to their creative potential (especially as songwriters I feel that they had more in them than what eventually came out), they probably could have used their own George Martin...

I disagree. First of all, the band seemed quite focus and fairly united under Carl's leadership in the early 70s. Second off, Dennis wrote more songs then anyone after Brian stepped back. Especially after Holland.

[runnersdialzero]

What was it that caused Carl to lose focus/leadership within the band?

[b00ts]

"Disney Girls" in my opinion the best Beach Boys song that Brian didn't write.  Man I love that song especially the middle eight with the acapella bit like "Sloop John B." ("Church...bingo chances and old time dances") and then the hum - Wow love it!

"Disney Girls" is a beautiful song, and it is defiantly and aggressively square, almost the polar opposite of "Student Demonstration Time," which seems to strive to be edgy and political and falls somewhat flat.

In contrast, "Disney Girls" is so far away from the tone of most of "Surf's Up" that is paradoxically fits perfectly right in the middle of the album; it is a respite from the socio-political turmoil of the time that is discussed elsewhere on the album, and in the greater context it serves as a much more melancholy, yearning song than it might appear upon first listen.

That is a really interesting analysis...I really like "Student Demonstration Time," as I was a college student at the time of the height of the Vietnam War protests across the United States...on some level, touring the colleges in those years, the Beach Boys, particularly Mike Love, "felt our pain" and rage as against the war, and protest against other injustices, and did not have their heads in "the sand" as it were, in terms of being in real touch with the world and the positions of their fans.   The whole concept of the danger of a wild mob, the police moving in against them, were well articulated in that song.  Ultimately, protest, activism and all that great music, changed this country, for the better. 

Disney Girls, sort of provides a place to put some hope, that life will go on, after the chaos, with the concept of leisure time, and normalcy, when the country was trapped in a vortex of intensity, winter and summer and determination to bring the troops on.  It was a bright respite from the socio-political turmoil of the day but "defiant, aggressive squareness" seems a mite extreme...I like to think it may have been conceptualized with an idyllic nostalgic rear view mirror, reflecting on a much simpler time...Nothing square about that...

Yes, I think you stated it with more nuance, and more articulately than I did. In my defense, I wasn't yet alive at the time. And for the record, I do love Disney Girls!

[adamghost]

What was it that caused Carl to lose focus/leadership within the band?

That's a great question.  I don't know the definitive answer, but I'm going to take a stab at answering it and then step back and let others who know better pick it apart:

1.  Jack Rieley's departure as manager.  Rieley had championed Carl as leader of the group, and had backed Carl's desire to reinvent the band.
2.  The success of ENDLESS SUMMER in 1974, which basically wrecked the band's reinvention process, coupled with Carl's inability to deliver a hit record for the band (and, I'd guess, the excessive amount of tinkering he did on the IN CONCERT album in '73 causing the band to lose patience).
3.  Ricky Fataar's departure in '74.  A minor detail perhaps, but Ricky was a key in-band ally of Carl's.
4.  Steve Love's instillation as manager -- which basically set the political framework for Mike Love to take control of the band.  It was Steve Love, I believe, that really hammered through the "Brian Is Back" campaign.
5.  Once the writing was on the wall with 15 BIG ONES, Carl and Dennis both basically lost heart.  It's clear from the setlists of '76-'77 that (contrary to popular belief), there was still an attempt to respect the band's later material, but the execution and pacing of the shows were not good, which added to the general restlessness of the crowd during the new numbers, which strengthened Mike's case that the crowds really wanted to hear the oldies.  For the next couple of years it's bad times for Carl as the band's artistic direction drifts away from him, his marriage breaks up, and he flirts with heroin and alcoholism.

Carl pulled back, but never again became the dominant figure in the group, though he played a major role on L.A., KTSA and especially BB '85 -- but even then, a careful look at the credits and listen to the records reveals he did a lot of his vocal and recording work apart from the rest of the group, not to mention the period he went solo from '81-'82, which basically ended in a stalemate -- the band couldn't really function without him nor he without them.  In later years, the power dynamic seemed to be that Mike would be the one to initiate ideas (or at least the ones that were seriously considered), and they would do the ones that Carl didn't shoot down.  In later years it seems more like Carl was the guy who had veto power, and used it, but he wasn't calling the shots.

[runnersdialzero]

I'm not sure if this is the one you are talking about, but there is something called "Why Didn't I Tell You" which is an early version of "Goin' On" with cool dream breaks that aren't featured in the final song. Is that the supposed "superior" version?

I would hope not. Just found this, I really have to wonder what in the f*ck was intended? I mean they're at an entirely different tempo/time signuture from the entire rest of the song, and not in any creative way, it seems.

[Curtis Leon]

What was it that caused Carl to lose focus/leadership within the band?

That's a great question.  I don't know the definitive answer, but I'm going to take a stab at answering it and then step back and let others who know better pick it apart:

1.  Jack Rieley's departure as manager.  Rieley had championed Carl as leader of the group, and had backed Carl's desire to reinvent the band.
2.  The success of ENDLESS SUMMER in 1974, which basically wrecked the band's reinvention process, coupled with Carl's inability to deliver a hit record for the band (and, I'd guess, the excessive amount of tinkering he did on the IN CONCERT album in '73 causing the band to lose patience).
3.  Ricky Fataar's departure in '74.  A minor detail perhaps, but Ricky was a key in-band ally of Carl's.
4.  Steve Love's instillation as manager -- which basically set the political framework for Mike Love to take control of the band.  It was Steve Love, I believe, that really hammered through the "Brian Is Back" campaign.
5.  Once the writing was on the wall with 15 BIG ONES, Carl and Dennis both basically lost heart.  It's clear from the setlists of '76-'77 that (contrary to popular belief), there was still an attempt to respect the band's later material, but the execution and pacing of the shows were not good, which added to the general restlessness of the crowd during the new numbers, which strengthened Mike's case that the crowds really wanted to hear the oldies.  For the next couple of years it's bad times for Carl as the band's artistic direction drifts away from him, his marriage breaks up, and he flirts with heroin and alcoholism.

Carl pulled back, but never again became the dominant figure in the group, though he played a major role on L.A., KTSA and especially BB '85 -- but even then, a careful look at the credits and listen to the records reveals he did a lot of his vocal and recording work apart from the rest of the group, not to mention the period he went solo from '81-'82, which basically ended in a stalemate -- the band couldn't really function without him nor he without them.  In later years, the power dynamic seemed to be that Mike would be the one to initiate ideas (or at least the ones that were seriously considered), and they would do the ones that Carl didn't shoot down.  In later years it seems more like Carl was the guy who had veto power, and used it, but he wasn't calling the shots.

I've always said that the dual jackhammer of Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones' success was a titanically large blow to the Beach Boys' creativity and public image, one that they still haven't truly recovered from, even today.

[Emdeeh]

Carl pulled back, but never again became the dominant figure in the group

As far as I'm concerned, Carl remained a dominant figure onstage -- said in all seriousness. Carl had a whole lot of stage presence, and when he sang a lead -- wowza!