When was Dennis Point of no return?

[letsmakeit31]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but when was the point of no return for Dennis.... I'm going to say after 1979 when Brother studios and his Yacht was taken from him. Very sad subject I know but so many things went wrong in Dennis's life esp toward the end. I wish he was satill around now to see Smile being sold in the shops. Dennis was a big supporter of Smile and Brian in his life. Much love Denny

[Andrew G. Doe]

He was never the same after Murry died. Same goes for Brian. The real downhill slope started late 1978.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

He was never the same after Murry died. Same goes for Brian.

Hmmm...interesting. Do you think it's because they both had unresolved issues with him that they never got to clear up (and probably wouldn't have even if he lived for another 20 years).

[letsmakeit31]

Murry died in 1973? Was that one of the reasons why there wasn't any Beach Boys album between 73-76?

[runnersdialzero]

Murry died in 1973? Was that one of the reasons why there wasn't any Beach Boys album between 73-76?

One of them, I'd say.

[c-man]

He was never the same after Murry died. Same goes for Brian. The real downhill slope started late 1978.

Yep, like I've always said...they started sounding different, acting different, and overdoing the naughty stuff BIG time after Murry's death.  Note how Carl, who had it much "easier" than the other two in the Murry dept., managed to remain relatively "sane" and was basically still the same guy. 

[Mikie]

Carl Wilson was doing Smack and drinking heavily in 1978.  That ain't sane!  

And Brian was doing coke as far back as 1968. If anything, his intake increased a little after Murry's death, but he was already in the drugs big time before Murry checked out. And Dennis was drinking his head off and smoking pot years before Murry died. Ask Daryl Dragon and Greg Jacobsen!

Murry's death may have temporarily  exacerbated an already serious drug habit amongst the Wilson brothers, but I never really bought into Murry's demise really causing his family members to go DOWN HILL any further than they were already headed. In 1974 they were doing stuff at the Guercio Ranch and still writing songs and were on the upsurge in popularity with Endless Summer and SOA. 1976, same deal.  But agree 1978 was the beginning of the end for Dennis, and almost Brian, and almost Carl if he hadn't bounced back so quickly!

[PongHit]

Carl, who had it much "easier" than the other two in the Murry dept. ...

And Carl, the baby of the family, was the only one of the 3 brothers to attend Murry's funeral.

[c-man]

Carl Wilson was doing Smack and drinking heavily in 1978.  That ain't sane!  

And Brian was doing coke as far back as 1968. If anything, his intake increased a little after Murry's death, but he was already in the drugs big time before Murry checked out. And Dennis was drinking his head off and smoking pot years before Murry died. Ask Daryl Dragon and Greg Jacobsen!

Murry's death may have temporarily  exacerbated an already serious drug habit amongst the Wilson brothers, but I never really bought into Murry's demise really causing his family members to go DOWN HILL any further than they were already headed. In 1974 they were doing stuff at the Guercio Ranch and still writing songs and were on the upsurge in popularity with Endless Summer and SOA. 1976, same deal.  But agree 1978 was the beginning of the end for Dennis, and almost Brian, and almost Carl if he hadn't bounced back so quickly!

1977-1978 was not typical Carl; the years before & after, by all accounts, were.  Audree was quoted in the Leaf book (written in '77, published in '78) as saying "Carl was born 30".  That pretty much sums it up.  We're talking three kids from a dysfunctional family who became rock stars in their teens, so compared to most of us, they're atypical, but within that context, Carl remained pretty normal, while Brian and Dennis, even though they exhibited crazy behavior from the mid-sixites "drug era" on, REALLY hit rock bottom after Murry's death:  and like I've said before, it seems to me that they tried to allow Murry to live on in them by (subconciously, I'm sure) adopting some of his gruff, macho persona.  The Brian and Dennis of the late '70s-early '80s were drastically different guys compared to the Brian and Dennis of Murry's lifetime, whereas Carl remained pretty much the same, his 18 month bender aside.

[Jon Stebbins]

Carl Wilson was doing Smack and drinking heavily in 1978.  That ain't sane!  

And Brian was doing coke as far back as 1968. If anything, his intake increased a little after Murry's death, but he was already in the drugs big time before Murry checked out. And Dennis was drinking his head off and smoking pot years before Murry died. Ask Daryl Dragon and Greg Jacobsen!

Murry's death may have temporarily  exacerbated an already serious drug habit amongst the Wilson brothers, but I never really bought into Murry's demise really causing his family members to go DOWN HILL any further than they were already headed. In 1974 they were doing stuff at the Guercio Ranch and still writing songs and were on the upsurge in popularity with Endless Summer and SOA. 1976, same deal.  But agree 1978 was the beginning of the end for Dennis, and almost Brian, and almost Carl if he hadn't bounced back so quickly!

1977-1978 was not typical Carl; the years before & after, by all accounts, were.  Audree was quoted in the Leaf book (written in '77, published in '78) as saying "Carl was born 30".  That pretty much sums it up.  We're talking three kids from a dysfunctional family who became rock stars in their teens, so compared to most of us, they're atypical, but within that context, Carl remained pretty normal, while Brian and Dennis, even though they exhibited crazy behavior from the mid-sixites "drug era" on, REALLY hit rock bottom after Murry's death:  and like I've said before, it seems to me that they tried to allow Murry to live on in them by (subconciously, I'm sure) adopting some of his gruff, macho persona.  The Brian and Dennis of the late '70s-early '80s were drastically different guys compared to the Brian and Dennis of Murry's lifetime, whereas Carl remained pretty much the same, his 18 month bender aside.

It should be noted that after a somewhat lost and inebriated '73, that Dennis had a bit of an upswing from mid '74 through '76, especially in his studio productivity which was prolific...and there were also sporadic periods of "healthy" living in those years... which beginning in '77 were a permanent thing of the past.

[Jay]

Carl Wilson was doing Smack and drinking heavily in 1978.  That ain't sane!  

And Brian was doing coke as far back as 1968. If anything, his intake increased a little after Murry's death, but he was already in the drugs big time before Murry checked out. And Dennis was drinking his head off and smoking pot years before Murry died. Ask Daryl Dragon and Greg Jacobsen!

Murry's death may have temporarily  exacerbated an already serious drug habit amongst the Wilson brothers, but I never really bought into Murry's demise really causing his family members to go DOWN HILL any further than they were already headed. In 1974 they were doing stuff at the Guercio Ranch and still writing songs and were on the upsurge in popularity with Endless Summer and SOA. 1976, same deal.  But agree 1978 was the beginning of the end for Dennis, and almost Brian, and almost Carl if he hadn't bounced back so quickly!

1977-1978 was not typical Carl; the years before & after, by all accounts, were.  Audree was quoted in the Leaf book (written in '77, published in '78) as saying "Carl was born 30".  That pretty much sums it up.  We're talking three kids from a dysfunctional family who became rock stars in their teens, so compared to most of us, they're atypical, but within that context, Carl remained pretty normal, while Brian and Dennis, even though they exhibited crazy behavior from the mid-sixites "drug era" on, REALLY hit rock bottom after Murry's death:  and like I've said before, it seems to me that they tried to allow Murry to live on in them by (subconciously, I'm sure) adopting some of his gruff, macho persona.  The Brian and Dennis of the late '70s-early '80s were drastically different guys compared to the Brian and Dennis of Murry's lifetime, whereas Carl remained pretty much the same, his 18 month bender aside.

It should be noted that after a somewhat lost and inebriated '73, that Dennis had a bit of an upswing from mid '74 through '76, especially in his studio productivity which was prolific...and there were also sporadic periods of "healthy" living in those years... which beginning in '77 were a permanent thing of the past.

This is what I don't understand about Dennis. He had a period of seemingly intense productivity for two or three years, and suddenly something changed. John, you've said in the past that by 1979-ish, Dennis never really regained control for more than just a few days at a time. Was there something specific between 1977 to 1979 that happened to Dennis? It just seems to me that it happened quite suddenly, somewhere between 1978 and 1979. Was it losing Brother Studios? Losing the support of his brother Carl? The death of Billy Hinsche's dad?

[Jon Stebbins]

Losing the boat, the studio, the band, and most importantly....control of himself.

[Jay]

I wonder, what did Dennis think about Carl's brief bout with drugs and alcohol? Did he try to help Carl out at all? Or did they become drinking and drug buddies, like Dennis and Brian? Carl was always the "stable" one, so I'm just wondering how Dennis(or Brian) took it. I know that the Australian tour of 1978 was the infamous "Heroin bust up" involving Carl.

[Mikie]

Losing the boat, the studio, the band, and most importantly....control of himself.

And his marriage. Twice.

[Ron]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but when was the point of no return for Dennis.... I'm going to say after 1979 when Brother studios and his Yacht was taken from him. Very sad subject I know but so many things went wrong in Dennis's life esp toward the end. I wish he was satill around now to see Smile being sold in the shops. Dennis was a big supporter of Smile and Brian in his life. Much love Denny

I firmly believe there's never a point of no return, so his wasn't until he ran out of air. 

[Slow In Brain]

Poor Denny, nearly the 28th anniversary

[CarlTheVoice]

What made Carl turn his life back around after 1978? He seemed to quickly clean himself up after that. Did he continue to have some kind of drug/drink problem after? Especially with Dennis dying?

[c-man]

What made Carl turn his life back around after 1978? He seemed to quickly clean himself up after that. Did he continue to have some kind of drug/drink problem after? Especially with Dennis dying?

The main reason for Carl's slide to the dark side was the breakdown of his marriage.  Falling down drunk/stoned at that show in Australia may have been the turning point for him.  Maybe that and seeing how bad things were getting for his two brothers.  See, that's why I maintain that Carl stayed basically "sane":  a sane person who momentarily loses control can bounce back much easier than someone who is deeply, permanently scarred.

[runnersdialzero]

Sorry if this has been discussed before but when was the point of no return for Dennis.... I'm going to say after 1979 when Brother studios and his Yacht was taken from him. Very sad subject I know but so many things went wrong in Dennis's life esp toward the end. I wish he was satill around now to see Smile being sold in the shops. Dennis was a big supporter of Smile and Brian in his life. Much love Denny

I firmly believe there's never a point of no return, so his wasn't until he ran out of air. 

Thanks for the insight.

[Ron]

Glad you got something out of it.  Notice Brian was much worse off than Dennis, but by all sources has 'returned'.  By the way, you're a asshole, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop posting in threads I've posted in. 

[runnersdialzero]

Glad you got something out of it.  Notice Brian was much worse off than Dennis, but by all sources has 'returned'.  By the way, you're a asshole, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop posting in threads I've posted in. 

[Mr. Wilson]

JEEZ..!!!

[hypehat]

I wonder, what did Dennis think about Carl's brief bout with drugs and alcohol? Did he try to help Carl out at all? Or did they become drinking and drug buddies, like Dennis and Brian? Carl was always the "stable" one, so I'm just wondering how Dennis(or Brian) took it. I know that the Australian tour of 1978 was the infamous "Heroin bust up" involving Carl.

They just became drinking buddies - I believe that's why there's a lot of Carl on the 'solo' Wilson (both Brian and Dennis) material of the period.

[Mikie]

By the way, you're a asshole, and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop posting in threads I've posted in.

SCORCH! 

[mammy blue]

Jon will know much more about this, but I seem to recall reading about a major showdown occurring at an airport in 1977, when the band almost broke up for good. This seemed to be a pivotal time for Dennis and Carl. It all came to a head regarding the drug use within the band and/or the future musical approach, with Mike and Al advocating looking backward following the success of Endless Summer and 15 Big Ones, and Dennis and Carl wishing to continue forward creatively from where Holland left off. Brian was busy being caught in the middle and was fairly useless; a pawn, but perhaps a knowing and willful one. Judging by Dennis's comments about the MIU album, I think the direction of the band from that crisis point onward was deeply frustrating and when you consider the restrictions that were reportedly imposed upon him regarding his future solo career, events seemed to drain all  the creative inspiration that had previously fueled him. There were of course many other factors in Dennis' downfall, but the musical state of the band following 1977 has to be factored into the equation.