Was "Love To Say Dada" finished?

[Jim V.]

So, as everybody on here probably knows, "Love To Say Dada" was recorded after Derek Taylor announced the release of SMiLE had been scrapped (as far as I know. It remains to be seen what "Da Da" is, but it's probably its successor). But for all intents and purposes, we all still consider the recordings for it a "SMiLE session." But anyways, was the song considered finished after the vocals were added? I see the last session for it was cancelled, but who knows why? Anyways, I myself feel that it possibly was finished, but at the same time, even with those vocals on top, it does seem a bit bare. So anyways, does anybody know?

And yes, I know it somewhat mutated into "Cool, Cool Water", but I still consider them basically different entities.

[edit]: I know it was "finished" in '03/'04 as "In Blue Hawaii", but who is to say that was the plan.

[puni puni]

he probably junked the last session because he couldn't come up with an ending

in blue hawaii was probably very close to how he wanted the vox to be

[Iron Horse-Apples]

he probably junked the last session because he couldn't come up with an ending

in blue hawaii was probably very close to how he wanted the vox to be

I'm not sure. The first bot of the melody "Lose a dream"  sounds  like they just based it on the woodwinds. Usually on a BW production the woodwind and saxes would act more like background vox, lines of counterpoint to the lead vox. It was unusual for the woodwinds to mimic the leads (though not unheard of, I'm Waiting For The Day)

The vox line for "I could use a drop to drink right now" up to "Hawaii" sounds like a VDP melody to me, not modern day Brian and certainly not vintage SMiLE.

Also, most importantly, I asked Darian which new additions were vintage. This melody was not mentioned.

I know a lot of people think of this as a stand out track on BWPS, but I've always preferred it as a instrumental. When I first heard it in 93' it just blew my mind, blew it bad.
Especially the bits where it just stops. Never liked that filled with a melody

[Matt Bielewicz]

I think this track is, and always has been, a mystery: where it came from, what the plan was for it, and indeed, whether what was recorded in May 1967 can possibly be considered 'finished'. I don't think anyone can say anything very much with any certainty (unless there are clues on the tapes that we'll get to hear on the new sessions box). It's certainly the case that very little that was recorded around this time in 1967 was ever released, not for at least 20 years, anyway. (In March, you've got H&V Intro and maybe that major-key, piano-driven Child Is Father Of The Man chorus/intro... in April you've got a SMiLE version of Vega-Tables and an incomplete piano version of Wonderful with only a couple of backing vocal overdubs here and there... and in May, you've got this. None of which was released in any way officially until the GV box in 1993 - and some of it which *still* hasn't come out, to this day!)

From the dates on the new box set track listing, it looks as though Dada started in December 66, although who knows if it was called that then (I guess if Brian calls out that name on the Dec 66 sessions when we finally hear the box, we'll know that it really was called that as far back as 1966). But then in January 67, it was tracked as a possible section for H&V, under the name All Day, right? This has been known on here a while, since the SMiLE Shop days if I remember rightly, and the new box's track listing confirms it (the All Day session is dated January 67 on the track list, right?).

I know it subsequently mutated slightly and sort of 'became' Cool Cool Water, but I think it's far from certain that you can deduct backwards from that knowledge that All Day or 'ILTSDada' were necessarily going to be the Water part of the Elements, as so many people have assumed (including over the years Carl Wilson - whose 1972 Tracklist mentioned 'I Love To Say Dada incorporating Cool Cool Water', or something like that, didn't it? - Domenic Priore - who seems to treat ILTSDD and Cool Cool Water almost interchangeably at times - and of course the compilers of BWPS: the 2003 edition of BW himself, VDP, and Darian S). But the January 'All Day' tracking of the same music puts it with H&V, if anything. And yes, I know that the music from Dada was put with the 'Water Chant' on BWPS, but that *still* doesn't necessarily mean that Dada was Water. I mean, do we really even have The Elements at all on BWPS? Sort of - but sort of not. There are even those that say that 'Trombone Dixie' and 'Had To Phone Ya' are possibly related to 'All Day', and if you accept that connection, that doesn't mean that ILTSDD is about playing Dixieland jazz in a trombone ensemble, or indeed that it must be about making a phone call. Unless there are connections that are known that haven't yet been made public, it seems to me that the 'evidence' for ILTSDD definitely being 'Water' from The Elements is equally slender. The two are clearly musically related, but that could be the limit of the connection between them.

Also, by the time ILTSDD was recorded, you can make a case for the fact that Brian had already scrapped SMiLE and was starting to cannabalise parts for a new album. Derek Taylor certainly thought Brian had abandoned the original album by then. And you've got a very 'Do You Like Worms'-like opening section on the start of LTSDD, and evidence (on the booted second day of Dada sessions in May) for another section for the track that sounded awfully like part of Child Is Father Of The Man (although so far, no recordings have made it out that have a completed version of that bridge... now THAT would be a cool thing to find is included on the new box, if it ever existed).

But the problem is, there's two ways of analysing those similar parts in LTSDD. One is that Brian was still going hell-for-leather to finish SMiLE in May 1967 (despite Derek Taylor thinking he'd given up, for some reason), and that the musical 'calls' to Worms and Child is the Father in ILTSDD were part of his attempts to tie the whole album together with cleverly repeated modular snatches of the whole.

The other, totally different way of looking at it is that Brian had abandoned SMiLE at this point, and was recording ILTSDD as a track for something totally new, and thought he might as well recycle some of the broken fragments from the now-scrapped SMiLE which were never otherwise going to make it out on an album. Hence the opening use of the 'Mahalo Keeny Wak A Pula' Worms bridge (later FURTHER recycled as Whistle In on Smiley Smile) on I Love To Say Dada, the possible use of a scrapped Child Is Father section for a bridge to the song, and the verses from an abandoned bit of an H&V tracking session from January ('All Day') that he still liked. There's plenty of evidence for him doing similar recycling throughout the rest of his career: even on what made it out on Smiley Smile a couple of months later, you've got a major-key version of the Bicycle Rider theme from SMiLE jammed into Wonderful (as the musical backing for the 'Hey Baba Ruba' bridge), and that same Worms section finally making it out as Whistle In. And a couple of months later still, there's Wind Chimes (SMiLE version) recycled in Can't Wait Too Long, a bridge from the SMiLE version of Vega-Tables becoming 'Mama Says' and, oh, you know... *dozens* of examples of theme recycling right through to That Lucky Old Sun!

The trouble is, after all these years, it's impossible to tell what Brian's plans were for ILTSDD in May 1967: it could be anything from a cleverly woven-in part of the Elements for a still-to-be completed modular SMiLE album, or a salvage job from some musical pieces (Child, Worms, All Day) that he considered definitively junked.

I hope the new box will shed more light in some way, but I won't be too surprised if it doesn't...!

MattB

[buddhahat]

Excellent points. I have been puzzling over the references to other Smile songs within Dada. I think the cannibalization answer is more viable than him trying to tie it all together with recurring themes. I'm even skeptical as to how much the recurring themes within seperate Smile songs are deliberate cross referencing, and not just the result of Brian's writing style which is to keep using the feels that feel right at any given moment, regardless of whether they appear in another song or not.
For instance, is the GV motif in Look a deliberate attempt to refererence GV, or just a riff he was into at the time? (actually, had he alreaddy recorded Look by the time he took the riff and put it into GV - I'm getting my timeline mixed up?!) I think the latter is true.

[The Demon]

For instance, is the GV motif in Look a deliberate attempt to refererence GV, or just a riff he was into at the time? (actually, had he alreaddy recorded Look by the time he took the riff and put it into GV - I'm getting my timeline mixed up?!) I think the latter is true.

I think both.  He'd have to be really into those riffs and musical ideas.  But, if your plan is to finalize the composition of songs and an album through edits you haven't conceived yet, then recycling ideas will make that a hell of a lot easier than hoping things just kind of line up.

[onkster]

Does anybody besides me think that the "fuller" version of "Had To Phone Ya" is another extension of "Dada"? Because it sure as hell feels like it.

(And Love to Say Da-da has the initials LSD...this one's for you, Ghostie.)

[Iron Horse-Apples]

Does anybody besides me think that the "fuller" version of "Had To Phone Ya" is another extension of "Dada"? Because it sure as hell feels like it.

(And Love to Say Da-da has the initials LSD...this one's for you, Ghostie.)

Not sure what you mean by fuller version, but I always thought Had To Phone Ya was Trombone Dixie

[homeontherange]

Trombone Dixie became Da Da became All Day became I Love To Say Da Da became Cool Cool Water became Had To Phone Ya 


I'm very interested to hear this Da Da. I've been thinking that it might be what brian referred to as an instrumental piano piece which was called Air Da Da. Hence, the air element!?

[The Demon]

Trombone Dixie became Da Da became All Day became I Love To Say Da Da became Cool Cool Water became Had To Phone Ya 


I'm very interested to hear this Da Da. I've been thinking that it might be what brian referred to as an instrumental piano piece which was called Air Da Da. Hence, the air element!?

Either way, air was something.  Anderle said they had some idea what air was.  "Air Da Da" makes as much sense as anything else.

[SMiLE Brian]

Brian is the master at recycling and reusing song parts over time. If he doesn't release a song, expect it to change 3-4 times into something else.

[homeontherange]

If Da Da is the air element, I'm a happy man. Then all I need is an earth element. Maybe it's hidden somewhere on the boxset.

The Elements Part One: Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)
The Elements Part Two: Earth (?)
The Elements Part Three: Air (Da Da)
The Elements Part Four: Water (Water Chant)


Cool.

[The Demon]

If Da Da is the air element, I'm a happy man. Then all I need is an earth element. Maybe it's hidden somewhere on the boxset.

The Elements Part One: Fire (Mrs. O'Leary's Cow)
The Elements Part Two: Earth (?)
The Elements Part Three: Air (Da Da)
The Elements Part Four: Water (Water Chant)


Cool.

I think that early "Vega-Tables" (I hate that they call these demos, now, since that and "Surf's Up" only seem to be demos after the fact) would be a perfect "earth."  It's short and sweet.

[hypehat]

What else would you call a solo piano version of a tune that has a fully recorded arrangement?

[joshferrell]

actually "Da Da" is an art movement from the early 1900's,it's not real well known today but maybe because Brian and VDP were involved with the art community at the time they decided to write an "art" song..for those who don't know Da Da was an art form that involved simplicity in art,in fact most of the art was just regular stuff from peoples homes like sinks,toilets etc a very strange art movement no doubt about it..also I find it kind of interesting that Da Da was simplistic and "smiley Smile" was simplistic as well and Da da used "recycled" stuff and "smiley Smile used "recycled" music,just something to ponder..
http://arthistory.about.com/cs/arthistory10one/a/dada.htm

[The Demon]

What else would you call a solo piano version of a tune that has a fully recorded arrangement?

Yeah, but the full "Vega-Tables" came later when it started to be considered a single.  And the early version isn't totally solo.   So why would it be a demo and not "version 1"?  And as for "Surf's Up," why double track a vocal on a demo?  And why demo a song after you've started the version with the full arrangement?  Brian was batty, but I don't think his concept of space-time was that far gone.

[Matt Bielewicz]

Uh, guys... surely the only reason the recordings from the second day of the 'I Love To Say Dada' sessions are known as 'Air Dada' is because... SMiLE Shoppers started calling the piece that in the early 2000s, when the recordings leaked generally?

As I recall it (and I may have it wrong - I wasn't around ALL the time back then), the stuff from the second day of ILTSDD sessions leaked, and someone on the SMiLE Shop board said 'wow, there's a chirping, birdy-like flute in the gaps in between the piano bits... flutes need air... and birds FLY in the Air... and Brian said that Air was an unfinished piano piece... this is an unfinished piano piece... so perhaps THIS was Air from the Elements!!!'. Or the thinking went something like that, anyway. And maybe it wasn't all one person that reached that conclusion, but I can't remember.

But anyway, that recording became known as 'Air Dada'. But not because it was SLATED as that, or because Brian called it that back in the day, or anything like that.

Lets not turn ourselves completely into ourobouroses here, where something one of us suggested as a vague theory a good while back ends up being taken as gospel years down the road... and we all end up chasing and eating our own tails... ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros , before anyone accuses me of using big Van Dyke Parks-style words without knowing what I'm talking about...!)

MattB

[joshferrell]

here's a youtube video showing some examples of Da Da art..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O06YV6awc5g&feature=related

[onkster]

By "fuller" version of "Phone Ya", I mean the instrumental backing track on "Get the Boot II", I think. Supposedly the final "real" mix of this dropped some of the arrangement.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But man, does that track sound like an offshoot of "Dada", just as "Cool Cool Water" is an offshoot of "Dada/Water Chant"...

[Chris Brown]

What else would you call a solo piano version of a tune that has a fully recorded arrangement?

Yeah, but the full "Vega-Tables" came later when it started to be considered a single.  And the early version isn't totally solo.   So why would it be a demo and not "version 1"?  And as for "Surf's Up," why double track a vocal on a demo?  And why demo a song after you've started the version with the full arrangement?  Brian was batty, but I don't think his concept of space-time was that far gone.

During the Katrina calls Brian made back in 2005, I asked him why he recorded that version of "Surf's Up."  Naturally, anything Brian says should be taken with a grain of salt, but essentially he said that it was just something he felt like doing on a whim (pretty much his M.O. during this period), for no particular reason other than he wanted to.  Even before that, I'd never viewed it as a demo necessarily, just something Brian felt like doing one night, either for fun or maybe posterity.  I don't buy the idea that it was an attempt at another version, or was done in contemplation of Brian going solo. 

I think the fact that he came back to it in late 1967 is far more interesting than his motivations for doing the piano version.

[The Demon]

What else would you call a solo piano version of a tune that has a fully recorded arrangement?

Yeah, but the full "Vega-Tables" came later when it started to be considered a single.  And the early version isn't totally solo.   So why would it be a demo and not "version 1"?  And as for "Surf's Up," why double track a vocal on a demo?  And why demo a song after you've started the version with the full arrangement?  Brian was batty, but I don't think his concept of space-time was that far gone.

During the Katrina calls Brian made back in 2005, I asked him why he recorded that version of "Surf's Up."  Naturally, anything Brian says should be taken with a grain of salt, but essentially he said that it was just something he felt like doing on a whim (pretty much his M.O. during this period), for no particular reason other than he wanted to.  Even before that, I'd never viewed it as a demo necessarily, just something Brian felt like doing one night, either for fun or maybe posterity.  I don't buy the idea that it was an attempt at another version, or was done in contemplation of Brian going solo. 

I think the fact that he came back to it in late 1967 is far more interesting than his motivations for doing the piano version.

Very cool   I always figured he meant to overdub the other guys' vocals on top, but keep the music the same.

[runnersdialzero]

(And Love to Say Da-da has the initials LSD...this one's for you, Ghostie.)

Not really. imo.

[Summertime Blooz]

Uh, guys... surely the only reason the recordings from the second day of the 'I Love To Say Dada' sessions are known as 'Air Dada' is because... SMiLE Shoppers started calling the piece that in the early 2000s, when the recordings leaked generally?

As I recall it (and I may have it wrong - I wasn't around ALL the time back then), the stuff from the second day of ILTSDD sessions leaked, and someone on the SMiLE Shop board said 'wow, there's a chirping, birdy-like flute in the gaps in between the piano bits... flutes need air... and birds FLY in the Air... and Brian said that Air was an unfinished piano piece... this is an unfinished piano piece... so perhaps THIS was Air from the Elements!!!'. Or the thinking went something like that, anyway. And maybe it wasn't all one person that reached that conclusion, but I can't remember.

But anyway, that recording became known as 'Air Dada'. But not because it was SLATED as that, or because Brian called it that back in the day, or anything like that.

It occurred to me today looking at the sessionography for TSS box that maybe the title for LTSDD  Part 2 (Second Day) had some special significance. I always assumed it just meant the second day of sessions for LTSDD, but what if that is not the proper interpretation? 5/18/67 was actually the third day of sessions for LTSDD, although it was the second day for LTSDD Part 2. But why is the session labeled this way? I don't see anything else in the sessionography notated as Second Day or Third Day etc. We do know that at one point in December LTSDD was being labeled as 'All Day'. Not being a Bible reader, I thought I would check out how the Second Day fits into the story of the 7 Days of Creation, and found out that it was on the Second Day that God created the sky. I wonder now if LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was intended to be  it's own thing, separate from the standard issue LTSDD. If sky might be considered to equal Air, I think it could does give extra mileage to the theory that LTSDD Part 2 (Second Day) was indeed intended for The Elements as Air. There was a session scheduled for 5/19/67 (vocals  for Second Day perhaps?) that was canceled. Am I reading too much into this, or do you think there might be something to this theory?

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Dada not element. Song about infantilism. More in common with "Child is Father of the Man", "Wonderful", "Old Man & Baby" train of thought.

[Chris Brown]

Dada not element. Song about infantilism. More in common with "Child is Father of the Man", "Wonderful", "Old Man & Baby" train of thought.

Agreed.  I think people misinterpret the "wa-wa" as being water in the elemental sense, rather than water as a toddler would say it.  Marilyn's anecdote about bringing Brian chocolate milk in a baby bottle lends credence to such an interpretation.