SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[Chris Brown]

I think 5/11/66 was the first recording session of H&V?

If so, does anyone know if that session can be found on anything out there?

Since it doesn't look as if it's appearing on the box, I think the safest answer to that would unfortunately be no.  Presumably, whatever was done that day was either recorded over, erased or lost.

[theCOD]

Fades = safe. Hard cuts = not safe. Disc 1 is most probably playing it safe.

I'm sure if Mark and Alan had gone with rough cuts people would be complaining that it wasn't what Brian would have done, they sound unnatural, etc.

I love the new mixes, maybe because I couldn't care less about historical accuracy. If I want to listen to the tracks Brian produced, I have Smiley Smile. These were produced by Mark and Alan in 2011, not Brian in 1967 trying to assemble the next Beach Boys single. I prefer them to be safe because it's not their music - their job is simply to present it. They are in no position to be as bold as Brian would have been.

I have a feeling that if all the tracks on the "album" were determined to be historically accurate, most of the people complaining here would suddenly find these mixes to be a work of unparalleled genius. Some people can't seem to determine if they like it or not until they know for sure whether this is vintage Brian Wilson or two dudes friggin' with history.

I only see a few options to present SMiLE:

1. BWPS
2. Mark and Alan put it together with input from Brian, using BWPS as a template.
3. Mark and Alan put it together with little or no input from Brian, creating an official fan mix based on their own ideas.

I prefer option 2. I would love more than anything to have a SMiLE produced by 60's Brian, but that is impossible, and I believe what we're getting is the next best thing.

[monicker]

Bridge to indians is rushed in this new version. There needs to be that tiny gap of silence between the end of the chorus and that a cappella part. Here we hear bridge to indians start over the trailing off the cello tremolo. BWPS got this transition "right."

I have to respectfully disagree. I personally enjoyed the smoothness of the transition 

Yeah, everyone's gonna have a different take on it, of course. It's interesting though, because if Mark was using BWPS to the T, would he not have recreated the transition exactly as it appears on BWPS? Makes you wonder what went into the decisions of these minute details. One thing i was thinking: is Mark a songwriter? I wonder if as strictly an engineer, he's so wrapped up in that end of things, that MUSICAL details slip his mind, not really having a producer to pick up the slack? I have no idea obviously. And i wonder, too, Brian at age 69, listening to what Mark came up with and mid-song stopping it and saying, no there needs to be less of a gap there. I kind of can't imagine him caring too much about something like that at this point. I'd love to be wrong. I would love to be a fly on the wall when he was first shown disc 1 for approval. Did he PRODUCE it? No, right?

[theCOD]

I'm pretty sure it says in the press release that Brian had a hand in producing it. To what extent we'll probably never know.

[Chris Brown]

Bridge to indians is rushed in this new version. There needs to be that tiny gap of silence between the end of the chorus and that a cappella part. Here we hear bridge to indians start over the trailing off the cello tremolo. BWPS got this transition "right."

I have to respectfully disagree. I personally enjoyed the smoothness of the transition 

Yeah, everyone's gonna have a different take on it, of course. It's interesting though, because if Mark was using BWPS to the T, would he not have recreated the transition exactly as it appears on BWPS? Makes you wonder what went into the decisions of these minute details. One thing i was thinking: is Mark a songwriter? I wonder if as strictly an engineer, he's so wrapped up in that end of things, that MUSICAL details slip his mind, not really having a producer to pick up the slack? I have no idea obviously. And i wonder, too, Brian at age 69, listening to what Mark came up with and mid-song stopping it and saying, no there needs to be less of a gap there. I kind of can't imagine him caring too much about something like that at this point. I'd love to be wrong. I would love to be a fly on the wall when he was first shown disc 1 for approval. Did he PRODUCE it? No, right?

I doubt Brian was in there with them as they made these decisions - from what we've heard, it seems like it was just a matter of sending him some CDs and him saying yes or no on a track-by-track basis.  And even if he had been in there overseeing the process, as you point out, at this point Brian doesn't concern himself with little details like that anymore (and he's absolutely earned that right).

[bossaroo]

the "la la la" verse after the first chorus at 1:26 is definitely rushed. it's been buggin' me...

[monicker]

Before someone starts attacking (because i can feel it coming), i just want to say that as someone who writes and produces music, my ear is tuned to these sort of things. I am a highly critical person when it comes to all music, certainly not just Smile. That said, i know that i am going to thoroughly enjoy the box set when it comes out. That's an understatement, i am going to lose my mind with excitement. If i could, i would have myself cryogenically frozen until October 31st. I'm just overwhelmed and anxious and shooting the sh*t talking about all this. So it would be great if people wouldn't start with the YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE ANY CRITIQUES OF THE MUSIC.

[Ron]

I'm pretty sure it says in the press release that Brian had a hand in producing it. To what extent we'll probably never know.

Everything you hear, Brian produced in 1966, or 1967.

[John Manning]

Here's a thought that (I don't think) has been expressed before.

Using BWPS as a template, in a way,  gives more credibility to the 2004 release's tracklist, given.

It also makes the new release more identifiable to those who came on board seven years ago, given.

It also lends itself to one hell of a Beach Boys gig, either as an anniversary re-union, as a late promo of the box set, or both. Think about it: Brian's band is already fully conversant with the set list and would only need refresher rehearsals. By taking BWPS back on the road, only renamed as the Beach Boys Smile Sessions gig, you've a tour that would light up the rock press. Instead of Brian sat at his piano, you'd have Brian, Mike, Al and Bruce up front.

Okay, so a few more politics might come into play - like where do you put Ed Carter, Matt Jardine, John Cowsill and a few others – bit I reckon it could work, and work fairly simply.

Might it even have been one of the considerations in collating Disc 1?

[ghost]

Oh come on man, a Smile Sessions Tour is never going to happen. Are you tripping? You seriously imagine Mike Love & Bruce Johnston standing around on stage for an hour singing Smile stuff? Ladies and gentlemen, Bruce Johnston, to do a solo rendition of his "la la la" parts from Wonderful. Thank you Bruce, see you next time.

[John Manning]

Start of this year you'd've said we'd never see a release of the Smile sessions material in Brian's lifetime.

 You'd've said Mike Love and Al Jardine would never share a stage again.

You'd've said no frickin' way would EMI contemplate re-issuing the Christmas album yet again.

Strange things happen on this beach!

I doubt a tour but any anniversary re-union gig in the wake of this release has to acknowledge it, and go a little bit further in doing so than playing H&V and GVs.  My scenario might not seem realistic but it's an (comparatively) easy answer.

[desmondo]

Before someone starts attacking (because i can feel it coming), i just want to say that as someone who writes and produces music, my ear is tuned to these sort of things. I am a highly critical person when it comes to all music, certainly not just Smile. That said, i know that i am going to thoroughly enjoy the box set when it comes out. That's an understatement, i am going to lose my mind with excitement. If i could, i would have myself cryogenically frozen until October 31st. I'm just overwhelmed and anxious and shooting the sh*t talking about all this. So it would be great if people wouldn't start with the YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE ANY CRITIQUES OF THE MUSIC.

Dude - that's all cool and its good to hear the OPINIONS of someone who is involved in producing music - the SMILE stuff is simply amazing to me. - I am a drummer and hip-hop beatmaker and the Smile stuff has taught me so much

What I object to is people saying they could do better than Brian et al or that the TSS/BWPS album is all wrong

Look forward to your input on other stuff as it appears

Regards

[SG7]

 The H&V blew my brain out. I have never heard this song so clearly before. It finally makes sense to what Brian had in mind for it.

[punkinhead]

I have wanted that "dum de dum" bit to be part of "Good Vibrations" ever since I heard it on the GV box 17 years ago. Finally. Sounds great.

I agree, it's PERFECT!
One of the best outtakes for Good Vibes

[monicker]

Ok, so it just became obvious to me why the edit going out of the chorus into the peace in the valley verse is cleaner in the single version than it is in this new one. Since there are no multitracks for the peace in the valley verse and the single version had to be used for this new mix, it had to be cut right after the organ leading out of the chorus, and, as you all know, there is no space at all between the organ and the first la.

Also, i don’t know if my brain is deceiving me and filling this in, but does anyone else hear the toy whistle in the a cappella break of the single version very very faintly in the same exact spot it appears now in this new version? Was it there all along?

[37!ws]

My thoughts:

- On both "H&V" and "Good Vibrations," the edits are MUCH smoother -- except the "La la laaaa..." part of H&V...I too very much noticed part of the "L" was lopped off. It seems that every time there's a new mix of H&V (cf. the stereo mix on Hawthorne, CA), that edit gets worse.

- The sound is amazingly clear. I'm betting they come from much earlier-generation tapes than the previously-released versions, as H&V has noticeably less hiss.

- The Mrs. always said that the edits in "Good Vibrations" are so obvious that you can actually tell what color the editing tape is. We both agree that the edits are MUCH improved...

- Having said that, an "HQ" "Good Vibrations" from TSS was just posted on BW's official Facebook page. I'm not going to be able to hear it for a while (no access to a sound card); anybody listen to it yet? Is it the same GV that's part of the video contest? It clocks in at 4:11.

[tansen]

My thoughts:

- On both "H&V" and "Good Vibrations," the edits are MUCH smoother -- except the "La la laaaa..." part of H&V...I too very much noticed part of the "L" was lopped off. It seems that every time there's a new mix of H&V (cf. the stereo mix on Hawthorne, CA), that edit gets worse.

- The sound is amazingly clear. I'm betting they come from much earlier-generation tapes than the previously-released versions, as H&V has noticeably less hiss.

- The Mrs. always said that the edits in "Good Vibrations" are so obvious that you can actually tell what color the editing tape is. We both agree that the edits are MUCH improved...

- Having said that, an "HQ" "Good Vibrations" from TSS was just posted on BW's official Facebook page. I'm not going to be able to hear it for a while (no access to a sound card); anybody listen to it yet? Is it the same GV that's part of the video contest? It clocks in at 4:11.

Pretty much the same as the mp3, S (without the obvious artefacts mp3-encoding will introduce).

[runnersdialzero]

Didn't realize they'd go all out fan mix-style editing on the main release. I suppose it makes sense in some ways, but isn't really the most accurate presentation. Ah well, fan mixes have existed for ages and will continue to, I suppose.

Scratch that - what's with the weird, fabricated H&V ending? Again, sounds very fan mix-ish. The great but ultimately excluded on the final version "hum bee"-ness on "Good Vibrations"? I knew they were using BWPS as a template, but they didn't have to go to this extent. I never understood fan mixes (and now official mixes) screwing with "Good Vibrations", which Brian finished back then. Would've been cool as an extra, but on the official tracklist, it feels kind of weird. Just me.

Edit: Concerning the "weird, fabricated H&V ending" comment, is there a legit edit out there of this with the strings? I saw people talking like it exists that way on bootlegs.

[pixletwin]

Ah well, it's still really cool. However, if there is any Purple Chick-style ridiculousness (ala the ending of "Holidays", editing "Look", etc.), I will not be happy.

I wouldn't mind it. The other 4 discs have the originals if I want them.

[runnersdialzero]

edit: oppzz

[Mooger Fooger]

If you listen to the album version of Crimson and Clover there are edits into the completed mix of the song. Tinkering with GV to "albumize" it seems OK with me. And for the record I think alot of you will be saying WTF? when you hear Teeter Totter Love. To quote Spinal Tap, "...better left unsolved..."

[hypehat]

Edit: Concerning the "weird, fabricated H&V ending" comment, is there a legit edit out there of this with the strings? I saw people talking like it exists that way on bootlegs.

Not a legit edit, really. However, it's on boots in incredibly poor sound quality from the Western Theme session. And now it all sounds clear as a (slide) whistle!

[runnersdialzero]

Edit: Concerning the "weird, fabricated H&V ending" comment, is there a legit edit out there of this with the strings? I saw people talking like it exists that way on bootlegs.

Not a legit edit, really. However, it's on boots in incredibly poor sound quality from the Western Theme session. And now it all sounds clear as a (slide) whistle!

Noice = )

[ghost]

- The Mrs. always said that the edits in "Good Vibrations" are so obvious that you can actually tell what color the editing tape is. We both agree that the edits are MUCH improved...

Is your wife Phil Spector?

[Roger Ryan]

Something to keep in mind regarding these new mixes/edits is that this kind of reworking has been going on for at least 20 years.

Tracks like "Soulful Old Man Sunshine", "Can't Wait Too Long", "Old Man River", "Fourth Of July", "Loop de Loop", "Fallin' In Love" (CD version), the GV Box Set versions of "Do You Like Worms?", "Vegetables", "Wind Chimes" and "Heroes & Villains (Sections)" all debuted in versions mixed and edited years after their actual recording. These were not historically accurate representations of what the recordings sounded like in the late 60s / early 70s. The same approach is being used for Disc 1 of TSS.

The only way to experience a true historically accurate SMiLE is to listen to all of the unedited snippets on repeat shuffle (which actually sounds like fun). I'm thinking that the TSS set will let us know when a vintage edit has been used (I don't expect this will happen too often); otherwise, I will enjoy the presentation in the same way I've always enjoyed previous archival releases from the Beach Boys.