SPOILER!!- Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations from TSS

[ghost]

IMO these mixes are kewl and all to hear but are really just officially sanctioned fan mixes. I'm more excited for the real substance of the box set - the sessions.

[John Manning]

Also will I be the first with the guts to suggest that besides the better sound quality there is nothing much better than many fan mixes here? And certainly not better than the singles - Heroes and Villains on the single is like it or leave it THE one, because Brian felt strongly for it. It was at the height of a big trip for him, it meant a lot. And the harpsichord is in that version too you just might not have your eq set right. it's low in the mix, subliminal. mozart on acid a couple rooms away. The humbedum was left out of Good Vibrations not for time constraints but because it makes the song drag into mediocrity, the Ahhhhh! becomes a non-climax, deadened. Someone didn't get this in the room. They should've hired me as spiritual over seer of project. Mark Linett, you made the Ahhhhhs a premature ejaculation.

Those "Aaahs" – and the "breath" in Surf's Up '71, which strike on (or a millisecond prior to) the "D" in "Dove nested towers…" – are two of the quintessential moments in rock music. Peerless.

i know, which is why i am saying that strripped of their context made to follow the mediocre humbedum recording are made to sound weak, inferior, a non-climax. in the single, the Ahhhh is a powerful orgasm. it's perfectly placed.

In total agreement. Would love to hear both those moments in total isolation – by which I mean without any other instrument's/overdubs etc, just those sounds.  I don't mean I want to listen to them in a big empty field.

[ghost]

Also will I be the first with the guts to suggest that besides the better sound quality there is nothing much better than many fan mixes here? And certainly not better than the singles - Heroes and Villains on the single is like it or leave it THE one, because Brian felt strongly for it. It was at the height of a big trip for him, it meant a lot. And the harpsichord is in that version too you just might not have your eq set right. it's low in the mix, subliminal. mozart on acid a couple rooms away. The humbedum was left out of Good Vibrations not for time constraints but because it makes the song drag into mediocrity, the Ahhhhh! becomes a non-climax, deadened. Someone didn't get this in the room. They should've hired me as spiritual over seer of project. Mark Linett, you made the Ahhhhhs a premature ejaculation.

Those "Aaahs" – and the "breath" in Surf's Up '71, which strike on (or a millisecond prior to) the "D" in "Dove nested towers…" – are two of the quintessential moments in rock music. Peerless.

i know, which is why i am saying that strripped of their context made to follow the mediocre humbedum recording are made to sound weak, inferior, a non-climax. in the single, the Ahhhh is a powerful orgasm. it's perfectly placed.

In total agreement. Would love to hear both those moments in total isolation – by which I mean without any other instrument's/overdubs etc, just those sounds.  I don't mean I want to listen to them in a big empty field.

imagine that recording slowed down 50% until it sounds like a wave of angelic youthful energy. the reverb is perfect on the single, it works perfectly in mono. in my understanding, "good vibrations" on BWPS is the Key for understanding the relationship of BWPS to Smile. Does that Good Vibrations sound better than the single? Almost as good? Or really not even in the same ball park at all, even though it's 'similar'? That is the rest of the album too, so how can we say it's the definitive piece of Smile when Smile originally was a youthful [teenage] symphony to God. Leonard Bernstein spoke about the youth - that included Brian, he was a leader of the youth and the youth himself.

[pixletwin]

The only thing I am missing in the new H&V s the spacey WHHOOOOOIIIRRRLLLL!!!! just before the "Cantina" section.

[theCOD]

Also will I be the first with the guts to suggest that besides the better sound quality there is nothing much better than many fan mixes here? And certainly not better than the singles - Heroes and Villains on the single is like it or leave it THE one, because Brian felt strongly for it. It was at the height of a big trip for him, it meant a lot. And the harpsichord is in that version too you just might not have your eq set right. it's low in the mix, subliminal. mozart on acid a couple rooms away. The humbedum was left out of Good Vibrations not for time constraints but because it makes the song drag into mediocrity, the Ahhhhh! becomes a non-climax, deadened. Someone didn't get this in the room. They should've hired me as spiritual over seer of project. Mark Linett, you made the Ahhhhhs a premature ejaculation.

I love the single versions too, but I already have them.

Also, I've never heard a fan mix of Heroes that didn't sound awful. Even Mok's SMiLE (which is my favorite) doesn't get it right and I skip it 99% of the time.

[Wirestone]

Only an observation -- funny that with the shellacking many want to give BWPS, there is such joy over this mix of H&V.

It's exactly the same assemblage of elements in the same order.

To rejoice in this as some sort of great success is to credit the work that Brian and Darian did in '03. There's no way around it now.

[The Heartical Don]

Only an observation -- funny that with the shellacking many want to give BWPS, there is such joy over this mix of H&V.

It's exactly the same assemblage of elements in the same order.

To rejoice in this as some sort of great success is to credit the work that Brian and Darian did in '03. There's no way around it now.

Good call. I was wondering about the writing about BWPS too. In fact, my admiration for that one is undiminished: 5 stars, no gripes.

And the assemblage is the same, and it's a beauty.

[Jon Stebbins]

Only an observation -- funny that with the shellacking many want to give BWPS, there is such joy over this mix of H&V.

It's exactly the same assemblage of elements in the same order.

To rejoice in this as some sort of great success is to credit the work that Brian and Darian did in '03. There's no way around it now.

That would assume that the assemblage choice is aesthetic and not political.

[seanmurd]

Also, I've never heard a fan mix of Heroes that didn't sound awful.

You've never heard mine... 

[theCOD]

Only an observation -- funny that with the shellacking many want to give BWPS, there is such joy over this mix of H&V.

It's exactly the same assemblage of elements in the same order.

To rejoice in this as some sort of great success is to credit the work that Brian and Darian did in '03. There's no way around it now.

Of course this is exactly what a militant would say. Are you never going to buy a Beach Boys product again because you love BWPS so much?



I think most people hate on BWPS because they don't want to accept an official running order, despite it being the best and most logical way to present the album. They have their own ideas and Brian just doesn't get it, obviously because he's old. They like to dismissively call it Darian's fan mix. It's not exactly what Brian wanted to do in 66/67 so therefore it's invalid and it sucks. Fake harpsichords!

It seems like most of the people who were introduced to the music through BWPS feel differently. They just think it's a brilliant album, probably because it is.

[drbeachboy]

Only an observation -- funny that with the shellacking many want to give BWPS, there is such joy over this mix of H&V.

It's exactly the same assemblage of elements in the same order.

To rejoice in this as some sort of great success is to credit the work that Brian and Darian did in '03. There's no way around it now.

Of course this is exactly what a militant would say. Are you never going to buy a Beach Boys product again because you love BWPS so much?



I think most people hate on BWPS because they don't want to accept an official running order, despite it being the best and most logical way to present the album. They have their own ideas and Brian just doesn't get it, obviously because he's old. They like to dismissively call it Darian's fan mix. It's not exactly what Brian wanted to do in 66/67 so therefore it's invalid and it sucks. Fake harpsichords!

It seems like most of the people who were introduced to the music through BWPS feel differently. They just think it's a brilliant album, probably because it is.

I like BWPS well enough and I have no complaints about the running order or production. My two issues with it are: 1) I heard too many of the RFH shows first, so it lacks in energy. Those first few shows were fantastic and very well done. 2) It's not the Beach Boys. On record there is just no substitute for those vocals, no matter how good Brian's band is on the recordings. The Beach Boys blend is just unique and I'm very prejudiced to it, I suppose. BWPS should have been released as a live album, as the original intent was just that.

[pixletwin]

Only an observation -- funny that with the shellacking many want to give BWPS, there is such joy over this mix of H&V.

It's exactly the same assemblage of elements in the same order.

To rejoice in this as some sort of great success is to credit the work that Brian and Darian did in '03. There's no way around it now.

Of course this is exactly what a militant would say. Are you never going to buy a Beach Boys product again because you love BWPS so much?



I think most people hate on BWPS because they don't want to accept an official running order, despite it being the best and most logical way to present the album. They have their own ideas and Brian just doesn't get it, obviously because he's old. They like to dismissively call it Darian's fan mix. It's not exactly what Brian wanted to do in 66/67 so therefore it's invalid and it sucks. Fake harpsichords!

It seems like most of the people who were introduced to the music through BWPS feel differently. They just think it's a brilliant album, probably because it is.

I like BWPS well enough and I have no complaints about the running order or production. My two issues with it are: 1) I heard too many of the RFH shows first, so it lacks in energy. Those first few shows were fantastic and very well done. 2) It's not the Beach Boys. On record there is just no substitute for those vocals, no matter how good Brian's band is on the recordings. The Beach Boys blend is just unique and I'm very prejudiced to it, I suppose. BWPS should have released as live album, as the original intent was just that.

Agreed. The only version of BWPS that I listen too has vocals from 66-67 flown in.

[Micha]

Maybe I was misunderstanding the original question - I apologize if that's the case. Perhaps I thought you meant the original single version, or was it that you thought the "hiccup" note was the result of the editing rather than the player playing it?

Right, I did not mean the original single version, and the funny thing is that it was only last Saturday that I analysed the Humbeedum part on the 1990 "Good Vibrations (Various sessions)" and discovered that hiccup note and someone else brings it up a few days later.

And Yes, having just come home from work and not having had the time to check the SOT session yet, I still think the hiccup results from editing because of the missing flute and the fact that the hiccup isn't in the new version. And I have to leave right away again, but I will check tomorrow, I promise, and may find you are right. I'll get back to you.

One more questions, speaking of bars: In this case 4 bass notes are to be considered one bar? Or is it 8 notes?

[Micha]

Frankenmixes.

In a way, yes, but beautiful!  

[Micha]

BWPS should have been released as a live album, as the original intent was just that.

I recorded the live DVD, burned that to CD and prefer that much to the studio version.

So, I'm off till tomorrow.

[Chris Brown]

Only an observation -- funny that with the shellacking many want to give BWPS, there is such joy over this mix of H&V.

It's exactly the same assemblage of elements in the same order.

To rejoice in this as some sort of great success is to credit the work that Brian and Darian did in '03. There's no way around it now.

Of course this is exactly what a militant would say. Are you never going to buy a Beach Boys product again because you love BWPS so much?



I think most people hate on BWPS because they don't want to accept an official running order, despite it being the best and most logical way to present the album. They have their own ideas and Brian just doesn't get it, obviously because he's old. They like to dismissively call it Darian's fan mix. It's not exactly what Brian wanted to do in 66/67 so therefore it's invalid and it sucks. Fake harpsichords!

It seems like most of the people who were introduced to the music through BWPS feel differently. They just think it's a brilliant album, probably because it is.

I like BWPS well enough and I have no complaints about the running order or production. My two issues with it are: 1) I heard too many of the RFH shows first, so it lacks in energy. Those first few shows were fantastic and very well done. 2) It's not the Beach Boys. On record there is just no substitute for those vocals, no matter how good Brian's band is on the recordings. The Beach Boys blend is just unique and I'm very prejudiced to it, I suppose. BWPS should have been released as a live album, as the original intent was just that.

Completely agreed.  I wish I were able to listen to BWPS and not wish to hear the vintage production and Beach Boys voices, but I do.  The running order is great, I've never had any qualms about that.  It just pains me to hear the sterile production and Brian's voice trying to sing parts that were never meant for a 62 year old man to sing.  I appreciate it for what it is (that is, the most completed presentation of the music we're ever going to get), but I'll always prefer the vintage sessions, unfinished or not.

[theCOD]

Brian and his current band don't even come close to being as great as the Beach Boys, but I still love BWPS, and it's puzzling to me why people trash it the way they do. The running order is by far the best I've heard, and I can't wait to hear an official re-creation with the Beach Boys (Purple Chick's SMiLE nauseates me). The first disc in the box will be the definitive SMiLE as far as I'm concerned.

[The Heartical Don]

Mike Love IS the Baldwin Organ on "girls, boys" part. his voice merges with it.

Mike Love is a Bald Organ indeed. The rest I do not know.

[Wirestone]

That would assume that the assemblage choice is aesthetic and not political.

While I agree the choice is most likely the latter, my _point_ was that people on this thread were praising it as the former.

I was actually introduced to the original material through the 93 box set, various boots, etc., etc.

But BWPS was definitely the best sequence I'd heard. And I guess I'm with Robert Christgau in thinking that Brian's older-sounding vocals are part of what make that album so special.

But yeah, quite obviously nothing beats the original sessions for sheer sound and production chops. I guess I just wish that BWPS wasn't being used as the template. It devalues both the work done in 03-04 (making it seem to be some sort of historical reconstruction, when it seems clear there was contemporary creative impulses behind it), and the work done in 66-67 (making it seem as though the BW of that time had no idea of how to fit it together).

[hypehat]

In a way, it is the most legitimate sequence Linett and Boyd can produce, being Brian and Van Dykes (with help from Darian, but he himself has stated how deferential he was to the pair) creation. It is the only sequence they have committed to, be it in 2003 or 1967, so I guess if they don't want to be accused of just stitching together their fan mix with no heed paid to Wilson they have to think of that.

I don't think Brian knew how to finish SMiLE back then, because he didn't.

[Iron Horse-Apples]

That would assume that the assemblage choice is aesthetic and not political.

While I agree the choice is most likely the latter, my _point_ was that people on this thread were praising it as the former.

I was actually introduced to the original material through the 93 box set, various boots, etc., etc.

But BWPS was definitely the best sequence I'd heard. And I guess I'm with Robert Christgau in thinking that Brian's older-sounding vocals are part of what make that album so special.

But yeah, quite obviously nothing beats the original sessions for sheer sound and production chops. I guess I just wish that BWPS wasn't being used as the template. It devalues both the work done in 03-04 (making it seem to be some sort of historical reconstruction, when it seems clear there was contemporary creative impulses behind it), and the work done in 66-67 (making it seem as though the BW of that time had no idea of how to fit it together).

When I talked to Darian, he was in no doubt that some of the sequencing on BWPS is vintage. Brian was very quick to fit some pieces together. The most important in my opinion is Wonderful/Look. These so obviously belong together. Barnyard/Old Master Painter is another, and having CIFTTM before Surfs Up. Also, not sure how many people are aware of this, but putting the Rock Rock Roll lyrics onto Holidays was explicitly a vintage idea. Brian said those lyrics were supposed to go there.

My thoughts on BWPS are many, and not all positive, but I have to say that if you'd told me 10 or 15 years ago that Brian and Van Dyke would not only finish SMiLE, but record a new version of it that worked really well, then I would not have believed it. Also we have the vintage melody to DYLW, and a vintage clarinet line on Look. For these reasons alone it is worth celebrating.

Also, without BWPS, we probably wouldn't be getting this box, certainly not with the quality and presentation it has. The success of BWPS paved the way for this release.

I sat in the front row at the first concert, so got to sit just feet away from Brian as he unveiled SMiLE for the first time. That was unreal. This box will be on a par with that.

[drbeachboy]

I remember hearing the premier concert of BWPS just a day or two after it was performed, and all I can tell you is that I never heard anything so beautiful as Movement 2. Though it was not intended that way for for the 1967 Smile, I have to say that it is one of the most touching pieces of music that I ever heard. Talk about being Moved....

[Wirestone]

The sequence of the album in 66-67 was clearly a work in progress. My point is that Brian did know (or at least have strong ideas) at that time about how the individual songs should go together. He made mixes of them.

In the case of H&V, he actually released the song as a single. Monkeying with these songs to fit them with a decades-later re-collaging of the material may be politically and practically necessary, but I don't have to like it. And don't get me started on the strangeness of then deciding to mix it in mono. Huh? If you were genuinely assembling the album based on the contemporaneous tracklist, maybe.

[seanmurd]

Mixing the "album" portion of disc one to mono is the LEAST mysterious "mystery" of the whole project. They simply don't have all the parts to mix all the songs into stereo, so for continuity's sake (and indeed because that's how Brian mixed in 1967), they're doing the "album" in mono. And so far, it sounds fantastic -- and it's not easy to mix mono effectively. Kind of a lost art, actually.

[monicker]

When I talked to Darian, he was in no doubt that some of the sequencing on BWPS is vintage. Brian was very quick to fit some pieces together. The most important in my opinion is Wonderful/Look. These so obviously belong together. Barnyard/Old Master Painter is another, and having CIFTTM before Surfs Up. Also, not sure how many people are aware of this, but putting the Rock Rock Roll lyrics onto Holidays was explicitly a vintage idea. Brian said those lyrics were supposed to go there.

Also we have the vintage melody to DYLW, and a vintage clarinet line on Look. For these reasons alone it is worth celebrating.

Can you elaborate any on what he said? This is fascinating.
I had never heard of the rock, rock, roll lyrics as part of Holidays being an original idea! Is there more you can say about this? Did you also hear this from Darian? Do you know how exactly the story goes of Brian remembering the DYLW melody?