Aeijtzsche's Annual Assortment of potentially unsolvable BB mysteries.

[DonnyL]

I don't think anyone tuned the danelectro A-A in the '60s; the "baritone" tuning concept is a more modern approach.

That's not true - there were players (by far not as many) using the baritone setup A-to-A or B-to-B in the 60's but I think the concept started by Danelectro in the 50's was the octave below E-to-E configuration.

What I need to do is play through all the classic Danelectro tracks like "The Lonely Surfer", "Wichita Lineman", and "La Bamba" to see if they *could* be played in A-to-A tuning. Not saying the original players like Pitman used that, but just to compare.

I think it says a lot that Danelectro with the baritone like my Hodad and Fender with their baritones like the "Bajo Sexto" Tele shipped those instruments with the thinner strings for baritone tuning. All in all, it's a better sound.

fair enough, but i'm reasonably certain most recordings on BB records would be tuned E-E.  there are always exceptions.

[DonnyL]

Re: 12-string standards: I believe most studio guys in the '60s and '70s used either a Fender Electric XII (as used on "sloop john b" for sure; and incidentally a completely different instrument than the strat XII reissues) or a Gibson 335 12 model).

I think you're probably right, but there's always an outlier or two, just like Joe Osborn and his Jazz Bass or perhaps the small handful of people that had A-A tuned guitars.  Check out Glen Campbell's 12-string Mosrite:  (And yes, there is supposed to be a photo now:)



Perhaps this was the 12-string heard of Glen's Pet Sounds tracks?  Who knows?

true, i forgot about the mosrite.  that's one cool guitar.

[guitarfool2002]

they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

I was trying to find a nice way to say how much I disagree with this statement.

I haven't found one yet so I'll just mention how much I disagree with this statement.

Isn't that what a lot of them thought at the time though?  I don't think Donny thinks Teles and Danos are kid's stuff, but I don't see Bill Pitman doing a dano bass record, you know?  And Barney did sort of reserve his classic Gibson for his jazz records.

I think much of that sentiment was spun out of Tommy Tedesco's comments through the years more than anything else. Tommy was sarcastic, he was funny as hell, he was a jokester, and it's not out of line with that part of Tommy's humor to say things about the records he was making for guys like Brian and Spector. This is the guy, remember, who once got Brian in the studio and asked him "What is surf music?", and that could be taken as humor, sarcasm, and a serious question all at once. The guys who came up with and just after Hal, like Randi, Melvoin, Gordon, Deasy, Osborn, etc. may have been jazzers at heart and played jazz in their free time but the label of kids music wasn't something that group thought of as they were making records like "Bridge Over Troubled Water" or "Aquarius/Let The Sunshine In". Or even Good Vibrations for that matter.

I would say more but I'm tying it into something with video and audio I'll hopefully have posted on the blog in the next day. It centers around Barney Kessel, and sessions he played in the 50's on Danelectro 6-string bass when it was a brand new instrument and music he recorded with Jimmy Bryant, who was the first player to really be in the spotlight with a Telecaster and a jazz-leaning country guitarist whom Barney admired and complimented...and who could play the living hell out of the guitar.

It should also be noted that the session guys from the pre-Wrecking Crew days, guys like Barney and Howard Roberts, used Gibsons but would often customize them, cut into and modify them, and sometimes change them radically in cases like Roberts' to the point where the guitar is almost unrecognizable as the Gibson model that came from the factory.

Barney used a Gibson for some things, Fender for others, and Danelectro for others still - it was whatever the song or the date called for with all those guys. They were like tools for an auto mechanic or carpenter or any trade.

[guitarfool2002]

To clarify one more issue, I think Tommy's sentiments about the music he was being hired to play may have held up more in the early days of Spector, 62-64, and definitely held up for all those sessions centered around hot rods and car music (and surf music) which could be, in musical standards, pretty basic rock and roll, where you'd have players like Tommy and Bill Pitman riffing over Chuck Berry rhythms.

But all that changed, I'd say it was a pretty radical shift actually, when a musician on the level of Frank Sinatra started working with that same core group of musicians and got others in his Reprise peer group like Dean and Sammy to do the same. Frank was a musician guys like Hal Blaine and Tommy were in awe of and a singer who was respected as a musician's musician, and to have him coming into that scene and in the process scoring several chart hits that crossed over from AC to pop, using that same crew that was playing what Tommy might have termed the kids' stuff...that seemed to be the turning point. After that, a lot of Tommy's jabs and comments have to be taken as humor because it was miles away from kids' music.

[monicker]

When we say jazz in relation to members of the wrecking crew, and how they were "jazz guys" (sorry Carol), what are we talking here, in relation to this time (1960s)? Like a Bill Evans, or a west coast/cool sort of sound? Wes Montogomery rehash? Because the WC guys were certainly not doing Eric Dolphy, Ornette, Coltrane, Archie Shepp, Albert Ayler, Cecil Taylor, etc. or even Mingus. Those were different worlds, which makes sense because "jazz" in the 1960s was so divided. I can't even see them doing hard bop. 

The direction this thread has taken here at the very end--talking about attitudes amongst certain circles of musicians--is something that has always fascinated/annoyed me. Jazzbos, especially, can be annoying and exhibit the most condescending attitudes (kid's stuff, disposable [granted, a lot of it was], passing fad, etc.) toward those "below" them, which is funny because then the "classical" people never took the "jazz guys" seriously. It always seemed to me that jazz musicians needed to find something to put below them and belittle because they got no respect from conservatory musicians, being sandwiched between these two worlds, one being the "elite" and the other being those who attained wide recognition, wealth, and celebrity status through "teen" records. Also, while people like Brian Wilson couldn't PLAY like the session musicians, could any of those session guys really WRITE and ARRANGE well? It seems they were just all about showcasing "chops," which is what so much of that world is. Which makes it all the funnier (to me, at least) when they hold that dismissive attitude. The whole musicians vs. composers dichotomy is so weird. And how rare it is to come across those who can do them both.

I am wondering when session musicians from that time started changing their attitude about pop music and going from viewing it as lightweight fluff to something *a little more* serious and substantial. I'm guessing around '67 when pop became more "sophisticated"? Then again, you have contemporary accounts by some of these people like Tommy Tedesco and others who still had a dismissive attitude about the stuff they were getting paid to play on.

 
 

[monicker]

Oh, my last post was written while another response came in, which addresses the very question i was asking at the end.

[DonnyL]

they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

I was trying to find a nice way to say how much I disagree with this statement.

I haven't found one yet so I'll just mention how much I disagree with this statement.

Isn't that what a lot of them thought at the time though?  I don't think Donny thinks Teles and Danos are kid's stuff, but I don't see Bill Pitman doing a dano bass record, you know?  And Barney did sort of reserve his classic Gibson for his jazz records.

Right, these guys didn’t typically use Teles and Danos for “serious” music, but “teenager”/rock n roll dates. 

For the record, I prefer the kids’ stuff; I’ve been amassing a collection of Beach Boys-type gear for a few years now.  Ampex 440, ’65 Fender Electric XII,  RMI rock-si-chord, Maestro Rhythm King, old Electro-Voice and Shure mics, bass harmonica, etc.  Had a Dano 6-string bass for awhile and will probably get one again in the future.  And I use NOS 3M/Scotch tape from the ‘60s; I find tape type to be a very important (though often neglected) ingredient to the ‘60s sound.

i'm also not convinced that the attitude about rock/pop sessions was specific to Tommy Tedesco.  These guys had a certain respect for the music (and as it would turn out, for Brian particularly), but they were hired guns and were not playing this rock music because it was their preference.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

they had their Gibsons for serious work, and their Teles and Danos for the kid stuff.

I was trying to find a nice way to say how much I disagree with this statement.

I haven't found one yet so I'll just mention how much I disagree with this statement.

Isn't that what a lot of them thought at the time though?  I don't think Donny thinks Teles and Danos are kid's stuff, but I don't see Bill Pitman doing a dano bass record, you know?  And Barney did sort of reserve his classic Gibson for his jazz records.

Right, these guys didn’t typically use Teles and Danos for “serious” music, but “teenager”/rock n roll dates.  

For the record, I prefer the kids’ stuff; I’ve been amassing a collection of Beach Boys-type gear for a few years now.  Ampex 440, ’65 Fender Electric XII,  RMI rock-si-chord, Maestro Rhythm King, old Electro-Voice and Shure mics, bass harmonica, etc.  Had a Dano 6-string bass for awhile and will probably get one again in the future.  And I use NOS 3M/Scotch tape from the ‘60s; I find tape type to be a very important (though often neglected) ingredient to the ‘60s sound.

i'm also not convinced that the attitude about rock/pop sessions was specific to Tommy Tedesco.  These guys had a certain respect for the music (and as it would turn out, for Brian particularly), but they were hired guns and were not playing this rock music because it was their preference.

So, as the owner of a '65 Fender XII, if you plug that right into the board and add copious amounts of reverb, play around with the pickup settings a bit, and play the WIBN part as notated above by me, does it sound anything like the record?

[DonnyL]

hmm, i didn't think of recording direct.  i can go directly from the board to the mono Ampex 440, and use the same kind of tape PET SOUNDS was cut on (Scotch 203).  I do have a good old spring reverb system with a built in limiter, which emulates an echo chamber about as good as a spring can.

BUT ...

the problem is, i did try out playing it on this guitar and it's so F-ing high on the fretboard, i can't imagine how he would have fit his fingers in there on this guitar.  i'll try to work out maybe a different way to play it and see what it sounds like.   but yeh, the tone of the guitar sounds close to me.   the difficulty with the finger position makes me feel like it may have been something like a the Gibson 335 or mosrite.  you'd have to have a guitar that really allows you to access the higher registers properly.  i don't have a UA desk or preamp unfortunately !

may be a few days before i can get to it; the only sound samples i have online are here --

http://magichero.bandcamp.com/

the tracks "ripple and wind" and "he's gone" have the Fender XII in more of a traditional rhythm guitar role, but you'll kind of be able to hear what i'm talking about -- it doesn't really sound like a traditional 12-string.

[DonnyL]

oh, PS, i can't see the tab photos that you guys posted for some reason, but i always have played it like this (usually an octave lower, depending on the guitar):

http://www.xguitar.com/guitar-tabs/beach_boys/pet_sounds/wouldnt_it_be_nice.txt

but i was messing around with playing it on just the higher 3 strings, i just haven't had time to transpose it all yet.

[guitarfool2002]

Also, while people like Brian Wilson couldn't PLAY like the session musicians, could any of those session guys really WRITE and ARRANGE well? It seems they were just all about showcasing "chops," which is what so much of that world is. Which makes it all the funnier (to me, at least) when they hold that dismissive attitude. The whole musicians vs. composers dichotomy is so weird. And how rare it is to come across those who can do them both.

Some of these Wrecking Crew musicians went on to have great success, and in some cases win Grammy awards and other accolades, as writers and arrangers. Even more of them became successful producers and worked as musical supervisors on various very successful recordings.

Just a few:

1. Larry Knechtel won a Grammy for his arrangement on Bridge Over Troubled Water among other arranging work
2. Mike Post started as a studio guitarist and later won a Grammy for Classical Gas as well as becoming one of the most successful television composers in America. His music is everywhere.
3. Don Randi was nominated for a Grammy for his original jazz group, besides opening up and running the Baked Potato which is where all the jazzers in LA hung out and jammed for decades.
4. Billy Strange - loads of credits as a producer and arranger
5. Don Peake - composed for TV, film, and arranged for Marvin Gaye and was band leader for Sonny And Cher, arranged a few Mike Nesmith Monkees sessions
6. Mike Melvoin scored dozens of television shows as well as a handful of feature films
7. Lee Hazelwood...'nuff said!
8. Leon Russell - started out playing dates with the Wrecking Crew, got into production with Gary Lewis, the rest is rock history

I could look up more but those were first in my mind. Naturally some musicians are better readers and players than composers, some prefer to play gigs and session dates to producing and writing, and some like Leon Russell and Larry Knechtel took all of their talents to the public at one time or another. But that short list shows that many were just as successful and made their mark as writers and producers as well as session musicians.

And I've heard more than a few of them tip their hat to Brian Wilson who they did admire and take as an influence in their own work.

I think ultimately this was a very *special* group of talented and driven musicians who found their niche, and the timing and locations of the whole scene in LA couldn't have worked out better for all these people to be in the same pool of talent. It is really quite amazing to consider the wealth of talent at that place and time.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

oh, PS, i can't see the tab photos that you guys posted for some reason, but i always have played it like this (usually an octave lower, depending on the guitar):

http://www.xguitar.com/guitar-tabs/beach_boys/pet_sounds/wouldnt_it_be_nice.txt

but i was messing around with playing it on just the higher 3 strings, i just haven't had time to transpose it all yet.

Whoa!  That's way higher than necessary.  Hmm...  Try this (There should be a photo below):

[guitarfool2002]

oh, PS, i can't see the tab photos that you guys posted for some reason, but i always have played it like this (usually an octave lower, depending on the guitar):

http://www.xguitar.com/guitar-tabs/beach_boys/pet_sounds/wouldnt_it_be_nice.txt

but i was messing around with playing it on just the higher 3 strings, i just haven't had time to transpose it all yet.

I tried that voicing on my 12-string - it's all but impossible. Try it from the other tab, first finger at the 14th fret position, it's an easier grip. And there is *one* note missing from that tab...

[monicker]

Some of these Wrecking Crew musicians went on to have great success, and in some cases win Grammy awards and other accolades, as writers and arrangers. Even more of them became successful producers and worked as musical supervisors on various very successful recordings.

Just a few:

1. Larry Knechtel won a Grammy for his arrangement on Bridge Over Troubled Water among other arranging work
2. Mike Post started as a studio guitarist and later won a Grammy for Classical Gas as well as becoming one of the most successful television composers in America. His music is everywhere.
3. Don Randi was nominated for a Grammy for his original jazz group, besides opening up and running the Baked Potato which is where all the jazzers in LA hung out and jammed for decades.
4. Billy Strange - loads of credits as a producer and arranger
5. Don Peake - composed for TV, film, and arranged for Marvin Gaye and was band leader for Sonny And Cher, arranged a few Mike Nesmith Monkees sessions
6. Mike Melvoin scored dozens of television shows as well as a handful of feature films
7. Lee Hazelwood...'nuff said!
8. Leon Russell - started out playing dates with the Wrecking Crew, got into production with Gary Lewis, the rest is rock history

I could look up more but those were first in my mind. Naturally some musicians are better readers and players than composers, some prefer to play gigs and session dates to producing and writing, and some like Leon Russell and Larry Knechtel took all of their talents to the public at one time or another. But that short list shows that many were just as successful and made their mark as writers and producers as well as session musicians.

And I've heard more than a few of them tip their hat to Brian Wilson who they did admire and take as an influence in their own work.

I think ultimately this was a very *special* group of talented and driven musicians who found their niche, and the timing and locations of the whole scene in LA couldn't have worked out better for all these people to be in the same pool of talent. It is really quite amazing to consider the wealth of talent at that place and time.

Craig, with due respect, i think your list is a bit of a stretch. I’ll definitely give you Lee Hazelwood. You cited one song for Larry Knetchel, Bridge Over Troubled Water. Did he arrange the whole song or just do the piano arrangement? Either way, it doesn’t particularly strike me as a much of an arranging accomplishment. Mike Post? I know his music is everywhere but ehhhh. I think the key here is that a lot of the stuff with these guys was TV work, which is not to say there wasn’t good TV music, but, well, it was certainly not where you heard the best stuff. To be clear, i wasn’t saying that the studio musicians were totally incapable of composing and arranging, i was just questioning whether they did it really well and produced memorable results. Were they special talents in this area was more of the question. It wasn’t their forte certainly. I recently listened to some stuff from Don Randi and Jerry Cole albums and found it to be rather pedestrian and lightweight. It’s funny that you didn’t even mention the most obvious one--Glen Campbell.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Rockford Files theme is one of my favorite tracks--I'd put it on my desert island mix, I think.

I'm not really sure what the argument here is, anyway.  We're talking about a group of people who excelled at all kinds of different things, and it's up to subjective taste which is more enjoyable.  If Jazz isn't your bag, then it's not.

And don't forget how many of these guys were A&R too, or even some level of executive at record companies.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Rockford Files theme is one of my favorite tracks--I'd put it on my desert island mix, I think.

I'm not really sure what the argument here is, anyway.  We're talking about a group of people who excelled at all kinds of different things, and it's up to subjective taste which is more enjoyable.  If Jazz isn't your bag, then it's not.

And don't forget how many of these guys were A&R too, or even some level of executive at record companies.

Incidentally, here's how I play the intro to WIBN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlPwkQuy2bM

[guitarfool2002]

Some of these Wrecking Crew musicians went on to have great success, and in some cases win Grammy awards and other accolades, as writers and arrangers. Even more of them became successful producers and worked as musical supervisors on various very successful recordings.

Just a few:

1. Larry Knechtel won a Grammy for his arrangement on Bridge Over Troubled Water among other arranging work
2. Mike Post started as a studio guitarist and later won a Grammy for Classical Gas as well as becoming one of the most successful television composers in America. His music is everywhere.
3. Don Randi was nominated for a Grammy for his original jazz group, besides opening up and running the Baked Potato which is where all the jazzers in LA hung out and jammed for decades.
4. Billy Strange - loads of credits as a producer and arranger
5. Don Peake - composed for TV, film, and arranged for Marvin Gaye and was band leader for Sonny And Cher, arranged a few Mike Nesmith Monkees sessions
6. Mike Melvoin scored dozens of television shows as well as a handful of feature films
7. Lee Hazelwood...'nuff said!
8. Leon Russell - started out playing dates with the Wrecking Crew, got into production with Gary Lewis, the rest is rock history

I could look up more but those were first in my mind. Naturally some musicians are better readers and players than composers, some prefer to play gigs and session dates to producing and writing, and some like Leon Russell and Larry Knechtel took all of their talents to the public at one time or another. But that short list shows that many were just as successful and made their mark as writers and producers as well as session musicians.

And I've heard more than a few of them tip their hat to Brian Wilson who they did admire and take as an influence in their own work.

I think ultimately this was a very *special* group of talented and driven musicians who found their niche, and the timing and locations of the whole scene in LA couldn't have worked out better for all these people to be in the same pool of talent. It is really quite amazing to consider the wealth of talent at that place and time.

Craig, with due respect, i think your list is a bit of a stretch. I’ll definitely give you Lee Hazelwood. You cited one song for Larry Knetchel, Bridge Over Troubled Water. Did he arrange the whole song or just do the piano arrangement? Either way, it doesn’t particularly strike me as a much of an arranging accomplishment. Mike Post? I know his music is everywhere but ehhhh. I think the key here is that a lot of the stuff with these guys was TV work, which is not to say there wasn’t good TV music, but, well, it was certainly not where you heard the best stuff. To be clear, i wasn’t saying that the studio musicians were totally incapable of composing and arranging, i was just questioning whether they did it really well and produced memorable results. Were they special talents in this area was more of the question. It wasn’t their forte certainly. I recently listened to some stuff from Don Randi and Jerry Cole albums and found it to be rather pedestrian and lightweight. It’s funny that you didn’t even mention the most obvious one--Glen Campbell.

The stretch is using your opinions of Don Randi and Jerry Cole solo albums to make a statement like "it wasn't their forte certainly" to describe the rest of the Wrecking Crew's careers in writing and arranging.

Glen Campbell was known as a stage performer and television personality after his session days, but  he was known as a singer like Sinatra or Elvis who performed and sang brilliantly but did not write, arrange, or produce his records. Guys like Al DeLory and Jimmy Webb did that for Glen.

"Bridge Over Troubled Water"...Have you listened to that song recently? The last 2 minutes are the building of the arrangement, strings in both channels, harmonies and counterpoints, soaring string lines and countermelodies alongside Art's vocal, it is a stunning arrangement (opinion). The fact is Larry Knechtel won the Grammy for arranging that song, and they don't give that out to a piano player playing pretty chords under a vocal. The award is for the full arrangement, and Knecthel won it that year.

Mike Post...look him up on AllMusic or Wiki or something, all the facts are there.

"Hill Street Blues" is my desert island tune, and I barely watched the show. There's something memorable about that melody....

[monicker]

Most everything here is opinion, obviously, however...you're saying that (the majority of) the Wrecking Crew members...their forte was, not musicianship, but composing and arranging? I was not basing my statement solely on Don Randi and Jerry Cole solo albums, by the way.

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Most everything here is opinion, obviously, however...you're saying that (the majority of) the Wrecking Crew members...their forte was, not musicianship, but composing and arranging? I was not basing my statement solely on Don Randi and Jerry Cole solo albums, by the way.

Musicianship includes composing and arranging.  I would say the strength of the Wrecking Crew types is musicianship in general, and then obviously they found their specific niches.  Just like almost any other profession.

I still don't really see what the argument is...The Wrecking Crew is far too large and divers of a body to make sweeping generalizations about, except to say that they all were musicians of the finest caliber.  Many were great arrangers, many could produce.  A few wrote great songs.  Some had a knack for the behind the scenes, A&R stuff.  Some were chops monsters that won jazz polls for best player on some instrument.  That's what makes their story so interesting, I think.  All they had in common was that they all were so good at music that people wanted to pay them money, again and again, to play it and shape it.

[hypehat]

Hate to derail the thread, but I remember running across the Wrecking Crew guys displaying insane chops in big band stuff on 50's telly. Any chance someone can help me out, I'm having no luck on youtube....

[DonnyL]

alright, i figured out the part (still couldn't see the photo, but clicked on the video link, which cleared it up enough for me to figure it out).

sounds pretty close to me.  i'll see about getting a recording together this weekend.

[donald]

Which parts were played by plucking the strings on a piano?    Seems I recall Tony Asher or VDP talking about doing this along with BW.  I had the idea that some of the unusual string sounds being discussed on this thread were created that way.

[LetHimRun]

Which parts were played by plucking the strings on a piano?    Seems I recall Tony Asher or VDP talking about doing this along with BW.  I had the idea that some of the unusual string sounds being discussed on this thread were created that way.

The opening of You Still Believe in Me.

[hypehat]

Tack pianos create a similar effect, I would say. The only instance in the BB's discography is You Still Believe in Me, though.

[guitarfool2002]

Tack pianos create a similar effect, I would say. The only instance in the BB's discography is You Still Believe in Me, though.

It's very cool that a tape of that session revealed how they did "You Still Believe In Me". One guy was actually under the cover of the piano where the strings are, with a mallet that I believe (correct if wrong...) was a dog toy of some kind, and he'd strike the actual strings with that thing. The other guy was at the keyboard holding down the keys of the piano for that melody, and possibly holding down the sustain (loud) pedal on the piano which lifted the felt dampers so you'd get the notes ringing through the cabinet, which gives it that haunting sound. I think they actually used something like a felt marker or pieces of tape to mark the strings that needed to be struck, otherwise you wouldn't be able to tell them apart.

A tack piano would have the metal on metal sound, but it wouldn't sustain like the effect they got with the 2-man team of Asher and Brian at that piano.

A wonderful sound, and it was edited onto the beginning of the track.