Previously released material on The Smile Sessions?

[John Manning]

I know with technology today you can pretty much clean any recording up but some of the "SMiLE" acetates that we already know of aren't what you would call up to releasable standard.

I know what you're saying from the POV of the man in the street wanting clean copies, but I suspect from most of our POVs there's no such thing as unreleasable quality when it comes to SMiLE material.

If they put out a box set of cruddy unique-to-acetate mixes I suspect a lot of people here would bite their hands off.  I'm already queuing.

[buddhahat]

Oh, so now I see how they get around the issue of including things recorded post 67.  According to Dom (link to interview below), apparently the compilers of this box feel the Smile Sessions didn't end in 67, but went on til about 71/72 - hence they can include the tag to Surff's Up, The lead vocals on Cabin Essence, etc. 
"Pretty sneaky, sis."   

http://www.examiner.com/vintage-rock-n-roll-in-national/author-beach-boys-smile-release-will-tell-story-bootleg-releases-couldn-t

 

"Brian Wilson wasn't hiding information, or what the sequence would be from anyone during 1966/1967," Priore says. "He was quite lucid not only with talk on the session tapes, but in Pop magazine interviews, private conversation with the musicians, with notation on tape boxes and so on. Alan Boyd has, since the release of "Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE" (the 2004 Brian Wilson release that featured the 'finished' album) really gotten into the science behind this kind of detail, with complete access to the Beach Boys' tape archive. Mark Linett has been properly cataloging 'SMiLE' tapes since at least 1987; I met him that year at Brian's session for "Rio Grande," when he played for me the first part of what would have been the original 'Heroes and Villains' single, with the 'cantina' section."

Rereading this article, particularly the section above, it seems to me Mark and Alan have really been trying to work out Brian's original intentions as much as possible. The article implies that there are a lot of clues in session tapes and contemporary interviews. From the 1000s of threads devoted to piecing smile together here I would say the opposite is true. How many clues about the original sequence do we know of? Outside the handwritten tracklist and the 'our Prayer as opener' I can think of very few. Even trying to work out what Brian planned to do with Great Shape leaves us all scratching our heads . Let's hope they've found a lot of info that is new to us. I wonder also if "private conversation with the musicians' have reaped a few choice nuggets that we wouldn't be privee to.

Of course there may be a fair bit of spin in the above article. Also, on the one hand Dom is suggesting they've found answers to Brian's original intentions, but that those answers point towards decisions brian made for BWPS such as putting SU in the middle. That definitely sounds like spin, but I guess it could be possible that Brian planned it that way originally.

It certainly looks promising that Mark and Alan are going to every effort to investigate what Brian's original plans were. Presumably they'll match this info with some of the sequencing of BWPS and we will get a hybrid Smile with a personality quite distinct from the 04 piece. I do hope there are some vintage sequencing ideas within tracks that distinguish it from BWPS, however much I love that album.

Dom makes it sound like it's easy peasy and was all mapped out from the start! Gotta question that a bit, but perhaps they know more than we think they know.

[desmondo]

Why does everyone want another version and/or mix of H&V? If Disc 1 is a close approximation of what would have been released, then doesn't it stand to reason that the released H&V would have been the version used? Most here want the hit version of GV, so why not the same with H&V?

All I want is THE Smile version of H&V -whatever that turns out to be (personally I would settle for a full band version of the HV/IIGS/BY mix

Dude, THERE IS NO SMILE VERSION OF HEROES AND VILLAINS. There are sessions and varying types of test mixes.

Errr - Cantina???

And how exactly do we know there is no Smile version of H&V

Well unless they dug it up since the release of HAWTHORNE, there is LIKELY NO completed "SMiLE" version of H&V.  The simple reason is due to the fact that it would've already been released by now either on the GV box, SS/WH two-fer or the Hawthorne collection.  It wouldn't likely be something that would've been passed on for all these years especially when they've been reissuing that "Cantina" mix for almost two decades now.  

I also think the fact that they once again included "Cantina" on the recent GV/H&V 45 is more evidence to the fact that if there is to be a new version of H&V appearing on this new collection it will be a modern mix done by Mark Linett incorporating material from the multi-tracks.  I'd be extremely surprised if they have a completed 1966/1967 mix of the song that we haven't yet heard.

I think I would be happy with a new mix done by Mark if there was evidence from BW, session chatter etc that it was intended in ^^ or it is a reconstruction of an acetate

That would be very acceptable

[desmondo]

I know with technology today you can pretty much clean any recording up but some of the "SMiLE" acetates that we already know of aren't what you would call up to releasable standard.

I know what you're saying from the POV of the man in the street wanting clean copies, but I suspect from most of our POVs there's no such thing as unreleasable quality when it comes to SMiLE material.

If they put out a box set of cruddy unique-to-acetate mixes I suspect a lot of people here would bite their hands off.  I'm already queuing.

Yeah you are right - now what would be cool is if they got all the acetates and then cleaned them up or reconstructed the mixes and stuck em all on vinyl - so we could have our own DP acetates

[Micha]

I'm not so sure that Wind Chimes will be just the box set version. Actually that would surprise me. On BWPS, the famous "blueprint", they follow the earlier recorded version of Wind Chimes. Actually only the arrangement for the first section is used from the box set version.

It will be very interesting if they will use a H&V version with the Bicycle Rider theme in it. The cantina version for sure doesn't have it.

[tansen]

I wonder where 'He Gives Speeches' fits in. And what about 'Way too long' which is on Linett's 1988 tape?

[buddhahat]

I wonder where 'He Gives Speeches' fits in. And what about 'Way too long' which is on Linett's 1988 tape?

I don't think way too long dates before wild Honey though, so I doubt it'll be on there.

[Bicyclerider]

It certainly looks promising that Mark and Alan are going to every effort to investigate what Brian's original plans were. Presumably they'll match this info with some of the sequencing of BWPS and we will get a hybrid Smile with a personality quite distinct from the 04 piece. I do hope there are some vintage sequencing ideas within tracks that distinguish it from BWPS, however much I love that album.

Dom makes it sound like it's easy peasy and was all mapped out from the start! Gotta question that a bit, but perhaps they know more than we think they know.

Alan has made it clear in posts on this board that he is VERy interested in the evolution of Heroes and Villains and the alternate mixes that Brian assembled - he shared with us the cryptic notes on the tape box that the safety copy of the cantina mix was in!  He really wants to solve some of the mysteries around this track and after the tape search and now the acetates becoming available, I am confident we are going to hear some new vintage mixes that will give us lots to talk about in the months following the box set release.

[Jason]

I wonder where 'He Gives Speeches' fits in. And what about 'Way too long' which is on Linett's 1988 tape?

I don't think way too long dates before wild Honey though, so I doubt it'll be on there.

Can't Wait Too Long dates from sessions in November 1967 and April-May 1968.

[Ian]

Interestingly enough-Bruce told a reporter in Albuquerque on July 15 1968 that "Can't Wait Too Long" would be the BB's next single.  An interesting might have been-clearly the release of that single in July 1968 would have been a critical event-it really has all that Brian dynamism that was fading at that point and would have been greeted as a return to form.  In my opinion it is the best unreleased Brian song of the late 60s.  If it had been completed-it would have been an awesome single-less retro than "Do It Again."

[tansen]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

[buddhahat]

It certainly looks promising that Mark and Alan are going to every effort to investigate what Brian's original plans were. Presumably they'll match this info with some of the sequencing of BWPS and we will get a hybrid Smile with a personality quite distinct from the 04 piece. I do hope there are some vintage sequencing ideas within tracks that distinguish it from BWPS, however much I love that album.

Dom makes it sound like it's easy peasy and was all mapped out from the start! Gotta question that a bit, but perhaps they know more than we think they know.

Alan has made it clear in posts on this board that he is VERy interested in the evolution of Heroes and Villains and the alternate mixes that Brian assembled - he shared with us the cryptic notes on the tape box that the safety copy of the cantina mix was in!  He really wants to solve some of the mysteries around this track and after the tape search and now the acetates becoming available, I am confident we are going to hear some new vintage mixes that will give us lots to talk about in the months following the box set release.

I seriously hope you're right. It would be fantastic if we get a version of Smile that contains some previously unheard vintage edits, even if it's a case of Mark reconstructing H&V to match a version from one of the BB's acetates as you suggest. Amazing if they can reconstruct OMP + Barnshine too, although if they go down this route, how will they reconcile these edits with the overall sequence of BWPS which they're obviously using as a guideline?

Can't wait for a tracklist so we can get a better sense of the approach they'll be taking with this.

[Andrew G. Doe]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

[tansen]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

No need to get cheeky Andrew - I am well aware of the title of the boxset.
I didn't realize that the November version was the WH version - the version I am talking about is the one found on the Mark Linett 1988 Smile tape ("Way too long"), and I presume this one was in fact a part of Smile, since it was on that tape.

[buddhahat]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

No need to get cheeky Andrew - I am well aware of the title of the boxset.
I didn't realize that the November version was the WH version - the version I am talking about is the one found on the Mark Linett 1988 Smile tape ("Way too long"), and I presume this one was in fact a part of Smile, since it was on that tape.

That version too is from the Wild Honey sessions although it does sound smile era.

[tansen]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

No need to get cheeky Andrew - I am well aware of the title of the boxset.
I didn't realize that the November version was the WH version - the version I am talking about is the one found on the Mark Linett 1988 Smile tape ("Way too long"), and I presume this one was in fact a part of Smile, since it was on that tape.

That version too is from the Wild Honey sessions although it does sound smile era.

You're right - did some bad research here. I do still wonder why it was on the Linett-tape, maybe he wanted to include it as a bonus track or something (Linett that is).

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I'm not so sure that Wind Chimes will be just the box set version. Actually that would surprise me. On BWPS, the famous "blueprint", they follow the earlier recorded version of Wind Chimes. Actually only the arrangement for the first section is used from the box set version.

Again, I don't think that Linett is using the word blueprint in the way that you're suggesting here.

[Jason]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

No need to get cheeky Andrew - I am well aware of the title of the boxset.
I didn't realize that the November version was the WH version - the version I am talking about is the one found on the Mark Linett 1988 Smile tape ("Way too long"), and I presume this one was in fact a part of Smile, since it was on that tape.

That version too is from the Wild Honey sessions although it does sound smile era.

You're right - did some bad research here. I do still wonder why it was on the Linett-tape, maybe he wanted to include it as a bonus track or something (Linett that is).

Back in 1988 it wasn't known to be a November 1967/April-May 1968 outtake. Hence the confusion. Research has proven otherwise. There should be nothing left to the imagination. It's on paper. Documented. Period. End of story.

[tansen]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

No need to get cheeky Andrew - I am well aware of the title of the boxset.
I didn't realize that the November version was the WH version - the version I am talking about is the one found on the Mark Linett 1988 Smile tape ("Way too long"), and I presume this one was in fact a part of Smile, since it was on that tape.

That version too is from the Wild Honey sessions although it does sound smile era.

You're right - did some bad research here. I do still wonder why it was on the Linett-tape, maybe he wanted to include it as a bonus track or something (Linett that is).

Back in 1988 it wasn't known to be a November 1967/April-May 1968 outtake. Hence the confusion. Research has proven otherwise. There should be nothing left to the imagination. It's on paper. Documented. Period. End of story.

Cool. Excellent. Did not know that. Thanks. Stop.

[Jason]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

No need to get cheeky Andrew - I am well aware of the title of the boxset.
I didn't realize that the November version was the WH version - the version I am talking about is the one found on the Mark Linett 1988 Smile tape ("Way too long"), and I presume this one was in fact a part of Smile, since it was on that tape.

That version too is from the Wild Honey sessions although it does sound smile era.

You're right - did some bad research here. I do still wonder why it was on the Linett-tape, maybe he wanted to include it as a bonus track or something (Linett that is).

Back in 1988 it wasn't known to be a November 1967/April-May 1968 outtake. Hence the confusion. Research has proven otherwise. There should be nothing left to the imagination. It's on paper. Documented. Period. End of story.

Cool. Excellent. Did not know that. Thanks. Stop.

Only when your facts are right shall I stop. 

[tansen]

And the November 67 version of 'Can't Wait too Long' (or 'Way too long' which it's called on the Linett tapes) is quite different from the released version, definitely more Smile'esque than the WH version.
I have a strong feeling we'll get it on the box set, but not sure it'll be on - lack of a better word - the "ultimate" version (Disc 1 or whatever).

The title of the release is The Smile Sessions - not The Smile (And A Bit Of Wild Honey) Sessions.

BTW, the November (and October) 1967 recording of "CWTL" is the Wild Honey version. The released 5.34 version of "CWTL" on the Smiley Smile/Wild Honey 2fer comprises both the 1968 and 1967 recordings.

No need to get cheeky Andrew - I am well aware of the title of the boxset.
I didn't realize that the November version was the WH version - the version I am talking about is the one found on the Mark Linett 1988 Smile tape ("Way too long"), and I presume this one was in fact a part of Smile, since it was on that tape.

That version too is from the Wild Honey sessions although it does sound smile era.

You're right - did some bad research here. I do still wonder why it was on the Linett-tape, maybe he wanted to include it as a bonus track or something (Linett that is).

Back in 1988 it wasn't known to be a November 1967/April-May 1968 outtake. Hence the confusion. Research has proven otherwise. There should be nothing left to the imagination. It's on paper. Documented. Period. End of story.

Cool. Excellent. Did not know that. Thanks. Stop.

Only when your facts are right shall I stop. 

Oh, that was just a reference to the good old Telegraph, please continue laying the facts on me - perhaps no need to do it as a telegram, but nevertheless

[The Song Of The Grange]

Historical integrity is huge, in my opinion, when it comes to the Smile box set. BWPS is just not '67 Smile. BWPS was an amazing gift to be given, but we are talking about BW and VDP in 2004 vs. BW and VDP at the very height of their creative powers in '66/'67. I think it would be a big mistake to use BWPS as a template. There are a number of historical inaccuracies. What BWSP is, essentially, is a live show that was put on disc, which collected the legends of Smile together and used them to help finish the album.

Look at the session logs. Half of Smile was pretty much dead by February 1967. Surf's Up was gone, Cabinessence was gone, Do You Like Worms was gone, The Elements were gone. Pretty much all that remained was Wonderful, H&V, and a revamped version of Vegetables. Smile with out Surf's Up is not Smile. BW appears to have been working with some kind of modified vision for the project post-2/67--a vision that comes pretty close to the track list of Smiley Smile. For whatever reason after Jan/Feb 1967 a big chunk of Smile was off the table, having been vetoed by either the band or BW or a combo of both. There is a middle era between the death of the "classic" notion of Smile and the beginning of Smiley Smile sessions in June. I think this stuff does belong on the box set, but I think it needs to be presented in it's proper context as a post-Smile re-use of Smile tracks, just as Smiley Smile is. Really, a box set called "The Smile Sessions" should include everything from post-Pet Sounds GV until the end of the Smiley Smile sessions. That is the real span of the era of music making. But still, I think it is important to any attempt to assemble a "zombie-Smile", to not use post March '67 tracks. The phase ends with BW's "finishing" H&V in early March.

This fact, and other modern additions to the concept make BWPS a great Smile tribute, but decidedly NOT Smile.

I Love to Say Da Da probably wasn't even a Smile track. Sure there is the Jan '67 demo called "All Day", but I'm not convinced. The H&V intro wouldn't have been the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". We've established on this message board that the H&V intro was recorded long after "Fire" was scrapped. Taking H&V intro onto "Fire" was David Leef's idea. There is some decent evidence, especially from Vosse, that "Surf's Up" would have been the last track on the album. There is also some decent evidence, coming even from BW himself, that "Wind Chimes" wasn't the "Air" section of the Elements (though I admit with the level of disinformation BW has given over the years, I really don't know what to think about this). There is also an inference that can be made that the "Water" section of the Elements was actually going to involve a whole lot of recordings of water itself (again see the Vosse interview in Fusion mag.). GV would have most certainly had the Mike Love lyrics, and it would be a decent guess to say that GV would have either ended side one (alla "Sloop John B") or started side two (as it did on Smiley Smile). Holidays, if it would have made the cut at all, probably wouldn't have had words. "Look"/"Song for Children" has a shakey case for making the album at all. The order and relationship between OMP, Barnyard, My Only Sunshine, I'm In Great Shape, Woodshop, the outtake we call Barnshine, and the song Vegetables is not fully clear or understood. The Elements and the "Barnyard suite" seem to be related in a web of associations that may have never been fully realized, even in late 1966. Plus, just to get nit-picky, the instrumental crossfades in BWPS wouldn't have been there in 1967.

I think if you want to know what Smile '67 would have flowed like, take a look at Frank Zappa's We're Only in it for the Money and Lumpy Gravy albums. Both those albums contain a big (and pretty unacknowledged BW influence), and I think with the skits BW was recording and his descriptions of 'talking in between tracks", that these Frank Zappa records give us a glimpse into the all-important context of the era and the LA scene.

So I would urge the makers of the box set to follow the historical facts, even if they lead to more questions than answers. Smile is a labyrinth after all. I could go on forever (maybe I just did).

[Chris Brown]

^Agreed completely, and an excellent overview.  A few random musings:

-- I would venture a guess that "Holidays" and "Look" were both gone by the end of '66, even before the project became a search for the next single.  I think they were things that Brian just sorta threw against the wall to see if they stuck, and after the initial enthusiasm of recording them, he re-assessed and decided they weren't strong enough.

-- I agree about the Water element.  "Water Chant" notwithstanding, I think that had he continued to work on "The Elements," Brian would have made something of Vosse's extensive work recording various water sounds.  As innovative as "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" is from a sound perspective, I think Brian would have attempted similarly innovative techniques for the remaining elements.

-- "DaDa" has always been a big mystery for me.  As you say, by early '67 Brian's approach to the project had changed dramatically, and he was essentially only focused on finding and finishing the next single.  I'd consider March (or April, which might be a stretch) a reasonable estimate of when Smile as an album was dead to Brian.  The question then becomes: once the album is no longer an option, where did Brian's focus get diverted to, and how does that lead him to recording "DaDa" (under Smile's project number, no less)?  We know he continued to tinker with "Heroes," but to what end did he record "DaDa"?  Another possibility for the next single?  Just for kicks?  For the next project (whatever his idea of that was at the time)? 

- I really hope that the upcoming box set gives us some more clues as to the relationship between "Old Master Painter," "You Were My Sunshine," "I'm In Great Shape," "Barnyard" and "I Wanna Be Around/Friday Night." Obviously they probably aren't all linked (and we know that at least 3 of these titles were, at one point or another, tied in with "Heroes and Villains"), but I feel like there had to have been more ties among these tracks than we know about right now.  Brian didn't record things for no reason, and it's highly unlikely that they would have been used on their own a la BWPS.

[buddhahat]

Historical integrity is huge, in my opinion, when it comes to the Smile box set. BWPS is just not '67 Smile. BWPS was an amazing gift to be given, but we are talking about BW and VDP in 2004 vs. BW and VDP at the very height of their creative powers in '66/'67. I think it would be a big mistake to use BWPS as a template. There are a number of historical inaccuracies. What BWSP is, essentially, is a live show that was put on disc, which collected the legends of Smile together and used them to help finish the album.

Look at the session logs. Half of Smile was pretty much dead by February 1967. Surf's Up was gone, Cabinessence was gone, Do You Like Worms was gone, The Elements were gone. Pretty much all that remained was Wonderful, H&V, and a revamped version of Vegetables. Smile with out Surf's Up is not Smile. BW appears to have been working with some kind of modified vision for the project post-2/67--a vision that comes pretty close to the track list of Smiley Smile. For whatever reason after Jan/Feb 1967 a big chunk of Smile was off the table, having been vetoed by either the band or BW or a combo of both. There is a middle era between the death of the "classic" notion of Smile and the beginning of Smiley Smile sessions in June. I think this stuff does belong on the box set, but I think it needs to be presented in it's proper context as a post-Smile re-use of Smile tracks, just as Smiley Smile is. Really, a box set called "The Smile Sessions" should include everything from post-Pet Sounds GV until the end of the Smiley Smile sessions. That is the real span of the era of music making. But still, I think it is important to any attempt to assemble a "zombie-Smile", to not use post March '67 tracks. The phase ends with BW's "finishing" H&V in early March.

This fact, and other modern additions to the concept make BWPS a great Smile tribute, but decidedly NOT Smile.

I Love to Say Da Da probably wasn't even a Smile track. Sure there is the Jan '67 demo called "All Day", but I'm not convinced. The H&V intro wouldn't have been the intro to "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow". We've established on this message board that the H&V intro was recorded long after "Fire" was scrapped. Taking H&V intro onto "Fire" was David Leef's idea. There is some decent evidence, especially from Vosse, that "Surf's Up" would have been the last track on the album. There is also some decent evidence, coming even from BW himself, that "Wind Chimes" wasn't the "Air" section of the Elements (though I admit with the level of disinformation BW has given over the years, I really don't know what to think about this). There is also an inference that can be made that the "Water" section of the Elements was actually going to involve a whole lot of recordings of water itself (again see the Vosse interview in Fusion mag.). GV would have most certainly had the Mike Love lyrics, and it would be a decent guess to say that GV would have either ended side one (alla "Sloop John B") or started side two (as it did on Smiley Smile). Holidays, if it would have made the cut at all, probably wouldn't have had words. "Look"/"Song for Children" has a shakey case for making the album at all. The order and relationship between OMP, Barnyard, My Only Sunshine, I'm In Great Shape, Woodshop, the outtake we call Barnshine, and the song Vegetables is not fully clear or understood. The Elements and the "Barnyard suite" seem to be related in a web of associations that may have never been fully realized, even in late 1966. Plus, just to get nit-picky, the instrumental crossfades in BWPS wouldn't have been there in 1967.

I think if you want to know what Smile '67 would have flowed like, take a look at Frank Zappa's We're Only in it for the Money and Lumpy Gravy albums. Both those albums contain a big (and pretty unacknowledged BW influence), and I think with the skits BW was recording and his descriptions of 'talking in between tracks", that these Frank Zappa records give us a glimpse into the all-important context of the era and the LA scene.

So I would urge the makers of the box set to follow the historical facts, even if they lead to more questions than answers. Smile is a labyrinth after all. I could go on forever (maybe I just did).

Good, valid points.

However I think we have to accept that disc 1 will be not so much try to replicate a realistic snapshot of what form a finished Smile may have taken at any point in 66/67. That would result in a lot of the best material being left on the cutting room floor as your post above identifies. The purpose of disc 1 (as far as I know)  is to present the best material from the sessions as a playable album and as such I see its intention mirrors the original aim of BWPS very closely.

Hopefully, they take a historical approach to certain tracks where the evidence is there, e.g. they may try to reconstruct a H&V based on any acetate discoveries that have been made (or just use the Cantina mix). Where there is no solid evidence they may defer to BWPS as the 'next best thing'. Of course this is all conjecture, and they may well do something entirely different, but my point is an entirely historically sound Smile is just not possible as there are too many blanks. Hopefully they don't just mould it on BWPS but mix the two approaches.

[Micha]

Thank you for this opportunity for arguing! 

Historical integrity is huge, in my opinion, when it comes to the Smile box set. BWPS is just not '67 Smile.

Yeah, you see, the problem is just that there IS NO 1967 SMiLE. BWPS is about decisions being taken that Brian "at the height of his creativity" was unable to take. A 1967 SMiLE might just as well have featured the Rock Me Henry version of Wonderful, would you have wanted that? I think it was a wise decision to stick to the box set version of Wonderful, just as I think it was a good decision to do Wind Chimes like they did and not have Surf's Up as the closer. There are lots of decisions that I don't like that much, too, like using the Asher GV lyrics, but it's the only SMiLE with definite decisions about what to use that there is. Creators' decisions too!

I think it would be a big mistake to use BWPS as a template. There are a number of historical inaccuracies.

Actually, trying to do a "definite complete as possible 66/67 version of SMiLE" is as historically inaccurate as you can get.

Half of Smile was pretty much dead by February 1967.

I'm totally with you there. Actually I'm wondering if using the BR theme as H&V chorus meant that DYLW was scrapped even at that early stage - instead of using it in both songs like on BWPS.

and it would be a decent guess to say that GV would have either ended side one (alla "Sloop John B") or started side two (as it did on Smiley Smile).

Yes, that's just a guess. The single from "Party" was last on side two, so why not put GV there? (Yes I know, "Barbara Ann" wasn't meant to be a single, and it was Capitol's decision to make it one after the album had been delivered...) Makes a better closer to me than Surf's Up no matter what Vosse says.

So I would urge the makers of the box set to follow the historical facts

That would mean not to release it at all! 
Well, at least not to "complete" a "1966/67 version", cause there just isn't one.