Were the sections of The Elements ever enumerated?

[doinnothin]

Clearly, there was Fire (based on the labeling of the tapes). I've read the quote from Brian about Air being an instrumental piano piece. There's Frank Holmes drawing that seems to indicate Vega-Tables as part of The Elements (though it also seems that was already out of "The Elements" by the time the booklet was printed, since the tracklist had them separate). And then there's the "Water Chant" which would appear to be water.

But are there quotes that nail down what "The Elements" was supposed to consist of? Like did Brian ever say, "it's going to be Fire, Earth, Wind, and Water", or, "there are four elements", or, "one of the elements is earth"?

I'm not claiming it was never stated, just want to nail down things where possible. As it stands now, it seems to me that "Earth" got its own track and the best version of "The Elements" you could put together (based on evidence) would be "Fire" "Water", and "Air".

[Dunderhead]

No. Some people speculate that maybe Country Air was "Air", but there's 0 evidence for that. Some believe that Fall Breaks is Earth (even though it's clearly a reworking of Fire).

Brian one time said something that Air was only ever a piano demo that never was finished, but honestly who knows. This is probably the strongest evidence we have for the existence of tracks for all 4 elements. But it's really not much.

Some people say that the chants from the Psychedelic Sounds boot were supposed to be The Elements. Again, no real evidence of that.

In the end, nobody has even the faintest clue what Air or Earth were supposed to be, and it's questionable that Brian even ever intended to represent all four elements. We just assume that.

It's all speculation. There's almost nothing to go on. We even assume that it would be earth, air, water, fire, but what about wood instead of earth? or metal? why not aether? And aren't air and wind two different things? I think there was probably only going to ever be Fire and Water.

[Bill Tobelman]

Brian told Tom Nolan that his direction for SMiLE was based on 2 LSD trips. Those two trips (based upon Bri's bio) relate to fire & water based on the bio & Crawdaddy.

[Myk Luhv]

He never even bothered to include the fifth element!

[Mahalo]

Some believe that Fall Breaks is Earth (even though it's clearly a reworking of Fire).
Some people say that the chants from the Psychedelic Sounds boot were supposed to be The Elements. Again, no real evidence of that.
It's all speculation.

From the resident "speculation" exepert... 

As Fall Breaks is concerned, it sounds earthy to these ears...not saying it is or isn't but I hear a woodpecker on a tree playing with the bark, the vox sound lost like in a jungle, and the bass arrangement reminds me of the slowly-lurking growth of fauna across terra-firma.

I am of the school that The Elements COULD have (with even a LITTLE bit of evidence supporting it) been a theme and variations notion...but who the heck knows...not I, so feel free to shoot me down...

[Dunderhead]

Some believe that Fall Breaks is Earth (even though it's clearly a reworking of Fire).
Some people say that the chants from the Psychedelic Sounds boot were supposed to be The Elements. Again, no real evidence of that.
It's all speculation.

From the resident "speculation" exepert...  

As Fall Breaks is concerned, it sounds earthy to these ears...not saying it is or isn't but I hear a woodpecker on a tree playing with the bark, the vox sound lost like in a jungle, and the bass arrangement reminds me of the slowly-lurking growth of fauna across terra-firma.

I am of the school that The Elements COULD have (with even a LITTLE bit of evidence supporting it) been a theme and variations notion...but who the heck knows...not I, so feel free to shoot me down...

Musically it's fire.
Also, woodpeckers aren't earth, trees aren't earth, bark isn't earth, jungles aren't earth, fauna isn't earth. Elements are indivisible, the four classical elements make up everything. Wood and bark contain earth, but they also contain fire, which is "released" when wood burns. In the scheme of the classical elements everything is made up of the four elements. Why would the things you listed ever be specifically linked to earth? Because plants grow out of earth? Don't they also need water to grow? Why are you singling earth out specifically? I just don't see the connection. You're taking Earth to mean just some ambiguous concept of nature, but all four elements are equally natural and equally represented within nature. A jungle isn't any more earth than it is fire, water or wind.

And that's only if any of those things you listed are actually conveyed by the song, which is certainly debatable. It's a nice description to be sure, but to me the song is just clearly a rerecord of Fire totally unrelated to SMiLE or "The Elements". There are no jungles or bark in there.

Earth is associated with weight, gravity, mass, sturdiness, practicality. In what way does Fall Breaks convey any of those things?  If anything the background vocals sound like wind. Earth is clumsy. Plato thought each of the elements was composed of a different solid, Earth was made up of a bunch of cube shaped atoms basically, which caused it to crumble. Wind flowed. The background vocals flow like wind or water, not Earth.
To me Fall Breaks has nothing in common with Earth.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Simple and entirely accurate answer: beyond "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" (as Brian called it at the time) or "The Elements (FIRE)" (as the AFM sheet tags it, the engineer adding "part one")... no-one knows. Everything else is speculation. The only other pieces of hard(-ish) evidence for the composition of "The Elements" are Brian's description of "Air", the booklet suffixing "My Vega-Tables" with "The Elements" and an exchange I had with VDP over a decade ago: when inquiring about the possibility of Smile being a double album with tracks cross-faded a la Pepper, he refuted that but qualified it slightly by saying there would be cross-fading within one track, that track being "The Elements". So, allowing for his memory, it seem "The Elements" was at least a two-part "suite".

"Fall Breaks... is unquestionably a close musical relation to "Fire" - that struck me the first time I heard the latter over three decades ago and the fact was reinforced in 2004 when the band sang the "FB..." chant during "Fire" in London. Brian used the "bicycle rider" riff as a common theme running through Smile, so maybe "Earth" was a variation on "Fire"  that became "FB...". Maybe not. No-one knows.

As for "Air", the phrase "piano instrumental" covers more ground than Manhattan Island. Back in the 70s, I edited the choruses out of "Country Air", just on a whim. Sounded good to me, but I can't prove it's "Air". Maybe it is, maybe not. No-one knows.

Will we know anything better after the box comes out in late summer/early fall ?  I'd like to think so, but I'm not expecting it. That disc 1 of the 2CD set is using BWPS for a template tells me that nothing like Brian's hand-written track sequence for the album has turned up.

[desmondo]

Simple and entirely accurate answer: beyond "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" (as Brian called it at the time) or "The Elements (FIRE)" (as the AFM sheet tags it, the engineer adding "part one")... no-one knows. Everything else is speculation. The only other pieces of hard(-ish) evidence for the composition of "The Elements" are Brian's description of "Air", the booklet suffixing "My Vega-Tables" with "The Elements" and an exchange I had with VDP over a decade ago: when inquiring about the possibility of Smile being a double album with tracks cross-faded a la Pepper, he refuted that but qualified it slightly by saying there would be cross-fading within one track, that track being "The Elements". So, allowing for his memory, it seem "The Elements" was at least a two-part "suite".

"Fall Breaks... is unquestionably a close musical relation to "Fire" - that struck me the first time I heard the latter over three decades ago and the fact was reinforced in 2004 when the band sang the "FB..." chant during "Fire" in London. Brian used the "bicycle rider" riff as a common theme running through Smile, so maybe "Earth" was a variation on "Fire"  that became "FB...". Maybe not. No-one knows.

As for "Air", the phrase "piano instrumental" covers more ground than Manhattan Island. Back in the 70s, I edited the choruses out of "Country Air", just on a whim. Sounded good to me, but I can't prove it's "Air". Maybe it is, maybe not. No-one knows.

Will we know anything better after the box comes out in late summer/early fall ?  I'd like to think so, but I'm not expecting it. That disc 1 of the 2CD set is using BWPS for a template tells me that nothing like Brian's hand-written track sequence for the album has turned up.

AGD on the money as always with the facts but I wonder if there is a doing down of the BWPS template which from VT through to BH clearly sets out an Elements Suite.

Now whether the inclusion of the FB vox and the re-editing of WC and new lyrics to ILTSD were Brian's original intentions we will probably never know, but the ease with which VT/WC/MOC/BH become the Elements makes its dismissal as a pure BWPS concoction to difficult to wear.

The main problem I have with BWPS representing Smile 66/67 are the new interludes, Song for Children, On A Holiday and the positioning/linking of IIGS/IWBA.

For me IWBA/WS makes a perfect part two of MOC but I'm not a certain BW.

But as AGD says we will know more in late Summer/Fall

[Andrew G. Doe]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

[desmondo]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

[Andrew G. Doe]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

... and that makes it credible ? 

[drbeachboy]

Only in the sense that Darian was the boot-meister and didn't he help construct and sequence Movement 3? Though, not credible from the 1967 perspective.

[desmondo]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

... and that makes it credible ? 

Credible - the boots? or the fact that the four part sequence is in BWPS

[Andrew G. Doe]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

Like I said.

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

... and that makes it credible ?    Remember, Darian has all the boots in existence... plus it's entirely possible that all the subsequent 'leggers are following one original sequence.

Crap - sorry about this... I seem to have cloned my original post while editing it.

[desmondo]

Only in the sense that Darian was the boot-meister and didn't he help construct and sequence Movement 3? Though, not credible from the 1967 perspective.

Movement 3 -

OK we've got VT, WC, MOC, ILTSD - what else have we got left over that isn't part of Movements One and Two - can we fit that all together and add GV to the end

Yes we can - Let's do that then

[desmondo]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

Like I said.

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

... and that makes it credible ?    Remember, Darian has all the boots in existence... plus it's entirely possible that all the subsequent 'leggers are following one original sequence.

Crap - sorry about this... I seem to have cloned my original post while editing it.

Try again Andrew

[Roger Ryan]

I would say that the lack of a track entitled "The Elements" on BWPS strongly suggests that the suite as originally envisioned by Brian in '66 was nowhere near complete and/or was abandoned shortly after that December song list was written up. Whatever Brian may have had in his mind for it, it's possible that only one part, "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", was recorded. Or, was "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" all that "The Elements" was ever going to be? "Pt. 1 - Fire" was the first section; "Part 2" was the tag where the drums cancel out the basses (the two parts sound like they are crossfaded together on the boots - could this be what Van Dyke Parks was talking about?).

An imagined scenario: When sequencing BWPS, Darian is probably aware that there should be an "Elements Suite" of songs and proposes "Vegetables", "Wind Chimes", "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and "I Love To Say Dada" in that order (widely accepted sequencing proposed by Priore and bootleggers). Brian says "fine", but then wants new lyrics written for "Holidays" which he takes a fancy to and thinks it sounds good coming after "Vegetables". He also feels that "I Love To Say Dada" is nowhere near complete and wants Van Dyke to write some lyrics that deal with Hawaii. Darian now fears that the "Elements Suite" is in jeopardy. "Um, shouldn't 'Dada' be about water", he asks, "you know, as part of the Elements". "Don't worry about that", replies Van Dyke, "I'll work it into the lyrics."

While the above is speculative fiction, the end result on BWPS only alludes to what we think of as "The Elements" in a very vague, subtextual way. Almost like the participants are saying "We know you hard-core fans are expecting some kind of four elements represented, but we're not going to draw attention to it because we have no idea what that was supposed to be."

[guitarfool2002]

I'm holding to my theory on the chants: When you have Brian leading group chants with themes of water (the ocean), earth (vegetables, etc), and air (breathing), and the only "element" missing was fire for which he had already written music more visual than anything he could have done, I think he was testing ideas for his "suite".

And I say "suite" deliberately because of Peter Brown's book reporting that McCartney dropped in on a session for Brian's "Four Elements Suite", and now we have Mr. Doe's report of Van Dyke mentioning crossfading between musical sections related to the elements, making it a "suite" of sorts. I believe 100% that Brian wanted to work in some kind of vocal/chant aspects into his music, and it's something he definitely explored later.

The evidence of the chants cannot be dismissed as fantasy: It's too damn easy to plug that material into an "Elements" theme if he covers 3 out of the 4!

[Chris Brown]

I'm holding to my theory on the chants: When you have Brian leading group chants with themes of water (the ocean), earth (vegetables, etc), and air (breathing), and the only "element" missing was fire for which he had already written music more visual than anything he could have done, I think he was testing ideas for his "suite".

And I say "suite" deliberately because of Peter Brown's book reporting that McCartney dropped in on a session for Brian's "Four Elements Suite", and now we have Mr. Doe's report of Van Dyke mentioning crossfading between musical sections related to the elements, making it a "suite" of sorts. I believe 100% that Brian wanted to work in some kind of vocal/chant aspects into his music, and it's something he definitely explored later.

The evidence of the chants cannot be dismissed as fantasy: It's too damn easy to plug that material into an "Elements" theme if he covers 3 out of the 4!

I agree that the chants were probably Brian experimenting with different sounds for "The Elements," perhaps demos for things he wanted to try with the Beach Boys later.  They do fit somewhat nicely if you consider that "The Elements" would have been a suite of 4 cross-faded pieces of approximately 1 minute each (which is the particular theory I subscribe to).  But I think AGD and Roger Ryan are as close to the truth as we can get - beyond the Fire element, we just don't know, and may never know.  Brian himself may never have known, and if he did, a lot of what was in his head never made it to tape. 

I think it's a mistake to look at BWPS for answers - remember, they were taking what had already been recorded and sequencing the pieces in the way they thought would work best.  Beyond a few lyrics and lead vocal melodies, there wasn't much in the way of new composition to speak of, and who's to say that Brian was done composing when Smile was abandoned?  Maybe he hadn't come up with Earth yet, and had a few different thoughts about Air and Water that he hadn't really figured out.  Shoehorning the existing pieces/songs into something that can be loosely passed off as "The Elements" on BWPS doesn't necessarily give it credibility as such.  It's a good sequencing job, no doubt, but I don't put much stock in it beyond that.

[Dunderhead]

Simple and entirely accurate answer: beyond "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" (as Brian called it at the time) or "The Elements (FIRE)" (as the AFM sheet tags it, the engineer adding "part one")... no-one knows. Everything else is speculation. The only other pieces of hard(-ish) evidence for the composition of "The Elements" are Brian's description of "Air", the booklet suffixing "My Vega-Tables" with "The Elements" and an exchange I had with VDP over a decade ago: when inquiring about the possibility of Smile being a double album with tracks cross-faded a la Pepper, he refuted that but qualified it slightly by saying there would be cross-fading within one track, that track being "The Elements". So, allowing for his memory, it seem "The Elements" was at least a two-part "suite".

"Fall Breaks... is unquestionably a close musical relation to "Fire" - that struck me the first time I heard the latter over three decades ago and the fact was reinforced in 2004 when the band sang the "FB..." chant during "Fire" in London. Brian used the "bicycle rider" riff as a common theme running through Smile, so maybe "Earth" was a variation on "Fire"  that became "FB...". Maybe not. No-one knows.

As for "Air", the phrase "piano instrumental" covers more ground than Manhattan Island. Back in the 70s, I edited the choruses out of "Country Air", just on a whim. Sounded good to me, but I can't prove it's "Air". Maybe it is, maybe not. No-one knows.

Will we know anything better after the box comes out in late summer/early fall ?  I'd like to think so, but I'm not expecting it. That disc 1 of the 2CD set is using BWPS for a template tells me that nothing like Brian's hand-written track sequence for the album has turned up.

Is there an echo in here?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Simple and entirely accurate answer: beyond "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" (as Brian called it at the time) or "The Elements (FIRE)" (as the AFM sheet tags it, the engineer adding "part one")... no-one knows. Everything else is speculation. The only other pieces of hard(-ish) evidence for the composition of "The Elements" are Brian's description of "Air", the booklet suffixing "My Vega-Tables" with "The Elements" and an exchange I had with VDP over a decade ago: when inquiring about the possibility of Smile being a double album with tracks cross-faded a la Pepper, he refuted that but qualified it slightly by saying there would be cross-fading within one track, that track being "The Elements". So, allowing for his memory, it seem "The Elements" was at least a two-part "suite".

"Fall Breaks... is unquestionably a close musical relation to "Fire" - that struck me the first time I heard the latter over three decades ago and the fact was reinforced in 2004 when the band sang the "FB..." chant during "Fire" in London. Brian used the "bicycle rider" riff as a common theme running through Smile, so maybe "Earth" was a variation on "Fire"  that became "FB...". Maybe not. No-one knows.

As for "Air", the phrase "piano instrumental" covers more ground than Manhattan Island. Back in the 70s, I edited the choruses out of "Country Air", just on a whim. Sounded good to me, but I can't prove it's "Air". Maybe it is, maybe not. No-one knows.

Will we know anything better after the box comes out in late summer/early fall ?  I'd like to think so, but I'm not expecting it. That disc 1 of the 2CD set is using BWPS for a template tells me that nothing like Brian's hand-written track sequence for the album has turned up.

Is there an echo in here?

More of a high-pitched whine.

[doinnothin]

Come on guys, keep it to PMs. I love what both of you bring to the table (I've lurked for a long time), but the sniping you do at each other does nothing other than bring down otherwise useful threads.

I don't think any of us need you to defend us against the other and we'd probably all be best off if you just ignored each others posts at this point.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Come on guys, keep it to PMs. I love what both of you bring to the table (I've lurked for a long time), but the sniping you do at each other does nothing other than bring down otherwise useful threads.

I don't think any of us need you to defend us against the other and we'd probably all be best off if you just ignored each others posts at this point.

Sniping ? Moi ??  Shome mishtake, shurley.

But yes, you're right: I'll reprise the tactic that worked pretty well with irritants on other MBs.

[Jeff]

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

Common thought, as Andrew seems to be saying, doesn't mean credible.  DaDa (which you call "BH") didn't even exist until May '67, but for whatever reason, that reality seems to be routinely disregarded.  And what would the water chant have been for if not to go in The Elements?  And since The Elements, Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables were listed as separate tracks, how could the latter two have been part of The Elements?  There are so many inconsistencies here, but people seem to just tune them out.

[OBLiO]

The water section of elements was originally to be actual water sounds used as notes. I think it's in the Vosse article... Brian could find all the notes on the musical scale in the water sounds recorded and make something of it.

The Woody Woodpecker Symphony sounds murky and lonely... I looked at that one maybe a few months back thinking it could have been the earth element due to the murkiness or mossy forest sound... it does conjure that image of a lonely sad woodpecker... and there are the deep frog-like sounds too... gives it an earthy quality... but another interesting thing I found is that The Woody Woodpecker show was in syndication until 1966... it went off the air... but the other thing about Woody Woodpecker is that he is a Cuckoo Bird or crazy as in on his way to the funny farm... the first cartoon featuring Woody is "Knock Knock"... So I decided Fall Breaks into Winter is about a lonely woodpecker, off the air, everybody thinks he is crazy, walking all by himself in a murky forest, winter coming... something like that.

It's difficult to say if it is a toned down fire because there are other chromatic scales used in other places in the music including Cabinessence... but it could be if you think if it as a toned down Woody Woodpecker who was on fire and is now but a single flame lost somewhere in the forest... or maybe even brought down to earth... regardless it does conjure up images.