The Smiley Smile Message Board

Clearly, there was Fire (based on the labeling of the tapes). I've read the quote from Brian about Air being an instrumental piano piece. There's Frank Holmes drawing that seems to indicate Vega-Tables as part of The Elements (though it also seems that was already out of "The Elements" by the time the booklet was printed, since the tracklist had them separate). And then there's the "Water Chant" which would appear to be water.

But are there quotes that nail down what "The Elements" was supposed to consist of? Like did Brian ever say, "it's going to be Fire, Earth, Wind, and Water", or, "there are four elements", or, "one of the elements is earth"?

I'm not claiming it was never stated, just want to nail down things where possible. As it stands now, it seems to me that "Earth" got its own track and the best version of "The Elements" you could put together (based on evidence) would be "Fire" "Water", and "Air".

No. Some people speculate that maybe Country Air was "Air", but there's 0 evidence for that. Some believe that Fall Breaks is Earth (even though it's clearly a reworking of Fire).

Brian one time said something that Air was only ever a piano demo that never was finished, but honestly who knows. This is probably the strongest evidence we have for the existence of tracks for all 4 elements. But it's really not much.

Some people say that the chants from the Psychedelic Sounds boot were supposed to be The Elements. Again, no real evidence of that.

In the end, nobody has even the faintest clue what Air or Earth were supposed to be, and it's questionable that Brian even ever intended to represent all four elements. We just assume that.

It's all speculation. There's almost nothing to go on. We even assume that it would be earth, air, water, fire, but what about wood instead of earth? or metal? why not aether? And aren't air and wind two different things? I think there was probably only going to ever be Fire and Water.

Brian told Tom Nolan that his direction for SMiLE was based on 2 LSD trips. Those two trips (based upon Bri's bio) relate to fire & water based on the bio & Crawdaddy.

He never even bothered to include the fifth element!

From the resident "speculation" exepert...  ::)

As Fall Breaks is concerned, it sounds earthy to these ears...not saying it is or isn't but I hear a woodpecker on a tree playing with the bark, the vox sound lost like in a jungle, and the bass arrangement reminds me of the slowly-lurking growth of fauna across terra-firma.

I am of the school that The Elements COULD have (with even a LITTLE bit of evidence supporting it) been a theme and variations notion...but who the heck knows...not I, so feel free to shoot me down...

Musically it's fire.
Also, woodpeckers aren't earth, trees aren't earth, bark isn't earth, jungles aren't earth, fauna isn't earth. Elements are indivisible, the four classical elements make up everything. Wood and bark contain earth, but they also contain fire, which is "released" when wood burns. In the scheme of the classical elements everything is made up of the four elements. Why would the things you listed ever be specifically linked to earth? Because plants grow out of earth? Don't they also need water to grow? Why are you singling earth out specifically? I just don't see the connection. You're taking Earth to mean just some ambiguous concept of nature, but all four elements are equally natural and equally represented within nature. A jungle isn't any more earth than it is fire, water or wind.

And that's only if any of those things you listed are actually conveyed by the song, which is certainly debatable. It's a nice description to be sure, but to me the song is just clearly a rerecord of Fire totally unrelated to SMiLE or "The Elements". There are no jungles or bark in there.

Earth is associated with weight, gravity, mass, sturdiness, practicality. In what way does Fall Breaks convey any of those things?  If anything the background vocals sound like wind. Earth is clumsy. Plato thought each of the elements was composed of a different solid, Earth was made up of a bunch of cube shaped atoms basically, which caused it to crumble. Wind flowed. The background vocals flow like wind or water, not Earth.
To me Fall Breaks has nothing in common with Earth.

Simple and entirely accurate answer: beyond "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" (as Brian called it at the time) or "The Elements (FIRE)" (as the AFM sheet tags it, the engineer adding "part one")... no-one knows. Everything else is speculation. The only other pieces of hard(-ish) evidence for the composition of "The Elements" are Brian's description of "Air", the booklet suffixing "My Vega-Tables" with "The Elements" and an exchange I had with VDP over a decade ago: when inquiring about the possibility of Smile being a double album with tracks cross-faded a la Pepper, he refuted that but qualified it slightly by saying there would be cross-fading within one track, that track being "The Elements". So, allowing for his memory, it seem "The Elements" was at least a two-part "suite".

"Fall Breaks... is unquestionably a close musical relation to "Fire" - that struck me the first time I heard the latter over three decades ago and the fact was reinforced in 2004 when the band sang the "FB..." chant during "Fire" in London. Brian used the "bicycle rider" riff as a common theme running through Smile, so maybe "Earth" was a variation on "Fire"  that became "FB...". Maybe not. No-one knows.

As for "Air", the phrase "piano instrumental" covers more ground than Manhattan Island. Back in the 70s, I edited the choruses out of "Country Air", just on a whim. Sounded good to me, but I can't prove it's "Air". Maybe it is, maybe not. No-one knows.

Will we know anything better after the box comes out in late summer/early fall ?  I'd like to think so, but I'm not expecting it. That disc 1 of the 2CD set is using BWPS for a template tells me that nothing like Brian's hand-written track sequence for the album has turned up.

AGD on the money as always with the facts but I wonder if there is a doing down of the BWPS template which from VT through to BH clearly sets out an Elements Suite.

Now whether the inclusion of the FB vox and the re-editing of WC and new lyrics to ILTSD were Brian's original intentions we will probably never know, but the ease with which VT/WC/MOC/BH become the Elements makes its dismissal as a pure BWPS concoction to difficult to wear.

The main problem I have with BWPS representing Smile 66/67 are the new interludes, Song for Children, On A Holiday and the positioning/linking of IIGS/IWBA.

For me IWBA/WS makes a perfect part two of MOC but I'm not a certain BW.

But as AGD says we will know more in late Summer/Fall

Always remember that in every interview when he was asked about it, Brian stated that the 3rd 'movement' of BWPS was entirely a 2003/04 construct. The sequence might work, but it didn't work in 1966/67, because it didn't exist then.

At least on tape - maybe in BW's head it existed but we don't know for sure.

He was referring to the 3rd Movement which also included IIGS/IWBA/WS/OAH/GV not just the VT/WC/MOC/BH four part suite that many believe to be the Elements

It may have been a BWPS construct but if I remember the key boots all had that sequence for the Elements - it seemed a common thought back in the day and judging from this board even today

... and that makes it credible ?  ::)

Only in the sense that Darian was the boot-meister and didn't he help construct and sequence Movement 3? Though, not credible from the 1967 perspective.

Credible - the boots?????????? or the fact that the four part sequence is in BWPS

Like I said.


... and that makes it credible ?   ;D  Remember, Darian has all the boots in existence... plus it's entirely possible that all the subsequent 'leggers are following one original sequence.

Crap - sorry about this... I seem to have cloned my original post while editing it.

Movement 3 -

OK we've got VT, WC, MOC, ILTSD - what else have we got left over that isn't part of Movements One and Two - can we fit that all together and add GV to the end

Yes we can - Let's do that then

Try again Andrew

I would say that the lack of a track entitled "The Elements" on BWPS strongly suggests that the suite as originally envisioned by Brian in '66 was nowhere near complete and/or was abandoned shortly after that December song list was written up. Whatever Brian may have had in his mind for it, it's possible that only one part, "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", was recorded. Or, was "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" all that "The Elements" was ever going to be? "Pt. 1 - Fire" was the first section; "Part 2" was the tag where the drums cancel out the basses (the two parts sound like they are crossfaded together on the boots - could this be what Van Dyke Parks was talking about?).

An imagined scenario: When sequencing BWPS, Darian is probably aware that there should be an "Elements Suite" of songs and proposes "Vegetables", "Wind Chimes", "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow" and "I Love To Say Dada" in that order (widely accepted sequencing proposed by Priore and bootleggers). Brian says "fine", but then wants new lyrics written for "Holidays" which he takes a fancy to and thinks it sounds good coming after "Vegetables". He also feels that "I Love To Say Dada" is nowhere near complete and wants Van Dyke to write some lyrics that deal with Hawaii. Darian now fears that the "Elements Suite" is in jeopardy. "Um, shouldn't 'Dada' be about water", he asks, "you know, as part of the Elements". "Don't worry about that", replies Van Dyke, "I'll work it into the lyrics."

While the above is speculative fiction, the end result on BWPS only alludes to what we think of as "The Elements" in a very vague, subtextual way. Almost like the participants are saying "We know you hard-core fans are expecting some kind of four elements represented, but we're not going to draw attention to it because we have no idea what that was supposed to be."

I'm holding to my theory on the chants: When you have Brian leading group chants with themes of water (the ocean), earth (vegetables, etc), and air (breathing), and the only "element" missing was fire for which he had already written music more visual than anything he could have done, I think he was testing ideas for his "suite".

And I say "suite" deliberately because of Peter Brown's book reporting that McCartney dropped in on a session for Brian's "Four Elements Suite", and now we have Mr. Doe's report of Van Dyke mentioning crossfading between musical sections related to the elements, making it a "suite" of sorts. I believe 100% that Brian wanted to work in some kind of vocal/chant aspects into his music, and it's something he definitely explored later.

The evidence of the chants cannot be dismissed as fantasy: It's too damn easy to plug that material into an "Elements" theme if he covers 3 out of the 4!

I agree that the chants were probably Brian experimenting with different sounds for "The Elements," perhaps demos for things he wanted to try with the Beach Boys later.  They do fit somewhat nicely if you consider that "The Elements" would have been a suite of 4 cross-faded pieces of approximately 1 minute each (which is the particular theory I subscribe to).  But I think AGD and Roger Ryan are as close to the truth as we can get - beyond the Fire element, we just don't know, and may never know.  Brian himself may never have known, and if he did, a lot of what was in his head never made it to tape. 

I think it's a mistake to look at BWPS for answers - remember, they were taking what had already been recorded and sequencing the pieces in the way they thought would work best.  Beyond a few lyrics and lead vocal melodies, there wasn't much in the way of new composition to speak of, and who's to say that Brian was done composing when Smile was abandoned?  Maybe he hadn't come up with Earth yet, and had a few different thoughts about Air and Water that he hadn't really figured out.  Shoehorning the existing pieces/songs into something that can be loosely passed off as "The Elements" on BWPS doesn't necessarily give it credibility as such.  It's a good sequencing job, no doubt, but I don't put much stock in it beyond that.

Is there an echo in here?

More of a high-pitched whine.

Come on guys, keep it to PMs. I love what both of you bring to the table (I've lurked for a long time), but the sniping you do at each other does nothing other than bring down otherwise useful threads.

I don't think any of us need you to defend us against the other and we'd probably all be best off if you just ignored each others posts at this point.

Sniping ? Moi ??  Shome mishtake, shurley.

But yes, you're right: I'll reprise the tactic that worked pretty well with irritants on other MBs.

Common thought, as Andrew seems to be saying, doesn't mean credible.  DaDa (which you call "BH") didn't even exist until May '67, but for whatever reason, that reality seems to be routinely disregarded.  And what would the water chant have been for if not to go in The Elements?  And since The Elements, Wind Chimes and Vega-Tables were listed as separate tracks, how could the latter two have been part of The Elements?  There are so many inconsistencies here, but people seem to just tune them out.

The water section of elements was originally to be actual water sounds used as notes. I think it's in the Vosse article... Brian could find all the notes on the musical scale in the water sounds recorded and make something of it.

The Woody Woodpecker Symphony sounds murky and lonely... I looked at that one maybe a few months back thinking it could have been the earth element due to the murkiness or mossy forest sound... it does conjure that image of a lonely sad woodpecker... and there are the deep frog-like sounds too... gives it an earthy quality... but another interesting thing I found is that The Woody Woodpecker show was in syndication until 1966... it went off the air... but the other thing about Woody Woodpecker is that he is a Cuckoo Bird or crazy as in on his way to the funny farm... the first cartoon featuring Woody is "Knock Knock"... So I decided Fall Breaks into Winter is about a lonely woodpecker, off the air, everybody thinks he is crazy, walking all by himself in a murky forest, winter coming... something like that.

It's difficult to say if it is a toned down fire because there are other chromatic scales used in other places in the music including Cabinessence... but it could be if you think if it as a toned down Woody Woodpecker who was on fire and is now but a single flame lost somewhere in the forest... or maybe even brought down to earth... regardless it does conjure up images.

There is a school of though that says "Vega-Tables" was originally going to be part of "The Elements" (as per booklet) until Brian decided to make it a separate track (as per back cover). I'm cool with that. Of course, you're left with a "Vega-Tables" shaped hole in "The Elements", then...

And that's probably why the "cornucopia" version of "Vega-Tables" is so short and doesn't really go anywhere else after a few verses - it was intended to be short and then segue into the next section.  Of course, that version has always sounded like a demo to me, but I can get on board with the idea that Brian cannibalized it from "The Elements" and it became it's own track.  That would signal to me that he wanted to ditch the idea of "The Elements" altogether, not necessarily creating a hole in the suite.  By January (if not earlier), I'd venture to guess that Brian considered "The Elements" dead, and tried to find other places to use the parts he'd already done.  By that time, the single was the priority, not an experimental album cut.

Here's a question:

Is "Water Chant" the actual name written on the session sheets or on the tape box?

Or do we call it "Water Chant" because it showed up in "Cool, Cool Water" three or four years later?

Sure, it sounds like the voices are saying "water", but the nonsense syllables are actually "wa-doo". I have a feeling the segment ended up in "Cool, Cool Water" the same way the "workshop" sound effects ended up at the end of "Do It Again": "hey, here's something we recorded but didn't use - let's stick it in this song".

I'm not saying it wasn't a very creative choice. I think the chant bridges the two sections of "Cool, Cool Water" beautifully. But unless the '66 session is documented as "Water Chant" (or "The Elements, Part 2"), I don't think there's any evidence in the track itself that it belonged in "The Elements". More likely that it would represent "water" than "I Love To Say Dada", but still no real evidence.

Only 8 posts on the board and this guy is playing Admin already.  ::)    But he's doin nothin.

It's called "Constructive confrontation". It makes for a good all-balls-out healthy discussion! Go with it! Have a thick skin! No wimps!

You think if there was a wind track it would sound like eden ahbez's song "Tradewind" from his 1960 LP. An instrumental song with wind sound effects. Could that track have been the impetus of the whole enterprise? One would think a wind section would have had wind fx or perhaps the boys going "whooooooooooooosh" over it. Nothing like that exists though. Brian never had anyone make recordings of wind. You have to wonder why Brian never put in any work on this track. After some 10 months and 80 sessions isn't it a little odd that he never just knocked that one out? It certainly wasn't the most innovative premise for a song, why this would have given Brian any particular trouble is a mystery. Earth I can understand, how do you put earth sound effects in a song? But Wind?

Listening to BWPS the elements, to me, start in the middle of Great Shape and go all the way to the finish...wake up jump out of bed eat your breakfast and then face the elements... wood metal earth wind fire water ether... it's all in there.

As far as we know... plus it contradicts Brian's own description of "Air" as just a piano track. Also, assuming Brian was doing the classical elements thing, it would be Air, not Wind.

Of course, applying logic to Brian Wilson, The Beach Boys and/or Smile is at best a fruitless exercise.  ;D

SLIGHTLY off topic (but in a way not), that kind of reminds me of the synthesizer bit in Cool, Cool Water, which to my ears sounds like water dripping

According to SWD, they had to do that because all the Chamberlain tapes he'd spent months making had been wiped.

Yeah, the moog... maybe the water sounds would have ended up in cool water from '67, but that song was on hold for awhile, but Cool Water and Da-Da and the water sound idea, I believe stem from the Water Element. Something else I noticed... the rythmic piano sound on "Cool Cool Water" is the same sound used on Aren't You Glad on Wild Honey. Gives a raindrop quality to the piano tone.

Dagnabbit! I was hoping we were going to get to hear some that stuff.

Why were The Elements part of SMiLE anyway? What does that have to do with America?

Good question.
What even inspired Brian to do songs about the elements? Was it just a lark? Maybe you can provide some quotes about the elements from some books Brian read.

It seems like the elements are most closely connected with Brian's new age beliefs. Each astrological sign falls under one of the four elements. Is that possibly where Brian was coming from? What's really interesting is that Brian chose to focus on the negative aspect of fire. I think many approaches to the elements are respectful, recognizing the potential for each element to be not only destructive but also positive and creative. After all everything in the universe is made up, and depends on the four elements. Brian's version of fire is really purely negative, showcasing only the destructive aspect of fire. I really wonder where he got that from.

Or they were the basic foundations of the whole thing. That's what elements are.

Bad LSD trip, maybe?

And good LSD trip maybe?

Love to Say Dada   :angel:   

This is starting to read like a parody of the worst aspects of this forum.

How so? People just keep saying stuff like this for no reason. It's really not clear what exactly you dislike about this discussion. Instead of contributing anything you just thread merda. It's old hat. You can't even be bothered to say what upsets you about any of this.

Are you referring to "Love to Say Dada" I'd agree that it's unlikely as wouldn't it be LSDD? If not ILTSDD. It's an interesting observation, very probably incorrect, but it's totally harmless and is at least worth considering. But noooooo, wouldn't want to spoil your precious SMiLE discussion.  ::)

And what's wrong with wanting to understand Brian's motivations? What's the harm in asking WHY Brian wanted to do songs for the elements? Or WHERE he first got the inclination from? I think that's a totally appropriate and useful line of inquiry. Even AGD admits Brian had a lasting interest in astrology, the four elements are an important factor in astrology, three signs correspond to each of the four elements and these groupings are called triplicities. Is it in some way beyond belief that Brian may have been talking to his astrologer about the elements? Perhaps that connection might shed light on the elements mystery. That's only one possibility, the four elements are important in a number of esoteric beliefs that Brian was exposed to.

Understanding specifically what Brian's interest in the elements is, is totally prudent, on topic, interesting etc etc etc etc. There's absolutely no reason not to talk about it, and nobody in here is saying anything particularly outlandish. You're just being a grump.

"Oh no, people aren't talking about what I want to talk about, boo hoo hoo, woe is me"

Get over yourself.

I think that we need to make a new thread to serve as sort of a kid's table for Mr. Moise and his kind, sort of like people have at holiday meals. Just a place where the children can sit and play with their mashed potatoes so that the adults can get a little break from constant cries of "MOM, I'm booooooooored" and "But I don't like cranberries!"  

Well, I have no reason to consider Smile to be a concept album. There are certainly thematic concerns but nothing that applies to every track either sonically or lyrically. This was a period for Brian where he was trying to come up with the most creative ideas that simply had not been done in pop music before, such as a religious hymn, a Western, and a Baroque-style conception for a suite, which is The Elements.

Here you go again...

blah blah blah, if you want to come in here and bitch don't act stunned when somebody calls you on it. You challenge the validity of this discussion? Well I challenge your challenge. Put up or shut up.

'Cause the track is listed on the back cover ?  :)

OK, to apply your methods...

People crossed the water to reach America.

They cleared the land and the forests with fire.

They planted their crops in the earth.

They came to find a place they could breath the air of freedom.

Please don't stink up another thread.

I really think you have issues, not sure if they are drug related at this point don't care. You are going round and round in circles contradicting your self is it so hard to let go of a false reality. I have a great life and have met some great people on here and other forums and whilst we don't always agree we respect each others knowledge and informed opinions.

We do ?  Damn, no-one told me...

I don't even know how to respond anymore. I could write something, try and express my views on this whole never-ending cycle of rudeness but it makes no difference. You all claim to have so much respect, but you're all equally rude and bitchy and discussion was going along perfectly well until Chris Moise came in here to tell everyone how dumb they were. Can we just knock it off? Is there really a reason to swoop into ongoing discussion to insult the participants? Maybe if we could all just lay off we could actually make some progress in this discussion. But I doubt that will happen, likely 18th of May will heroically stand up to tell me how many drugs I do. Seriously dude, my personal experience with drugs is none of your business, I have never posted anything on here talking about my own use of drugs, and for all you know I may have never so much as touched a joint in my life. Stop being a dick.

I thought we did :-X

Good

Deal. Game on.

Just one point: the problem I have with 'alternate interpretations' - specifically the zen thing - is being told, outright or by insinuation, that I'm too dumb to grasp and or appreciate it.  Someone wants to educate me, fine, but telling me I'm stupid if I don't fall into line isn't the brightest way to go about it.

Back to what we were talking about ...


I was always think of SMiLE as half "American Gothic Trip" and half "Teenage Symphony to God". The Elements seem to fall on both sides of the fence (as other tracks) -- Fire being referred to as Mrs. O'Leary's Cow fits neatly into the Americana theme and into a celebration of the natural world (and presumably God's creation of it).

In reference to the astrological relationship to the Elements -- I don't think I really go along with it, but presuming Vega-Tables was a part of The Elements at some point, "Vega" is the second brightest star -- "Star"-Tables = Astrology? I don't think it mounts to much, but maybe it'll mean something to you.

I've done no such thing, at least not intentionally. If I left that impression then I apologize.

The star Vega came to mind due to the spelling of Vega-Tables, plus there are astrological signs on the back of the original back cover. It's just one thought. Words are suggestive and can take you anywhere depending on what you think they might mean. Audience participation.

Brian has a huge interest in astronomy as a boy, which lasted until at least the Smile era.

more accurately it lasted until at least the Love You era.

SMiLE, thematically, is a mess.

A cornucopia of stars... I used to look at the stars all the time, not as much anymore. You can't see much of anything in the city anymore. I don't read horoscopes, although I did when I was younger. I read that due to the earths precession.. the wobble... that the alignments have shifted, anyway. Also, because we have free-will, our lives are dictated by our choices. So, you can be born under a sign, but everything after that is up to you. I read a book called the Message of the Sphinx and they talk about how they could determine when the Great Pyramid was built by using the stars. That the Giza Plateau is a map of Orion's belt. And then there are all the stone markers all over the planet that mark time. It's pretty amazing that the conditions allow us to exist here, at all.

Yup, that's been my contention: Brian tried to document all his current interests, whims and fancies, but they were too diverse.

Your mileage may of course vary.

The 'Elements' are totally part of America. The four elements are linked with Native Americans.

And/or he didn't fully understand the things he was getting into. He absorbed so much information so quickly without taking the time to FULLY understand anything. Like the Zen deal-I believe that, sure, there may be some influence of Zen somewhere, but I don't think Brian fully understood the entire concept. He bounced from one thing to another so quickly, it all became a mess in his head.

Well, you could link the concept of elements to most major cultures in history.

Let's not forget that while the lyrical content of the album is often at times offering a counter-narrative on American history and doing so in the style of writers like Poe and Emerson, there is also a fairly significant indebtedness to English Romanticism. "Wind Chimes" is virtually a modern update of Coleridge's "Eolian Harp." In fact, the same poem's description of the "Cot o'ergrown" has a few similarities with Cabinessence. And, of course, "Child is Father of the Man" is a nod to Wordsworth. So, there is more going on here than just Americana.

ELEMENTary, my dead Watson ^_^

If all 4 elements are equally represented and equally natural in nature, hence my own interpretation of Fall Breaks is dead wrong, then why doesn't MOC contain or evoke all 4 elements? Must not be the fire element then...

Tell me again why trees, plants, and the like are not the earth element? Maybe they could represent them? Or is that too easy for you- maybe we need a thread about Plato's cubical molecules at the center of the earth to truly understand...

Also, since these elements are soooo ambiguous, then a theme and variation notion would make all the more sense...

That was well said. It is creative and I like it...audience participation and interpretation was such a key factor of the music and lyrics of SMiLE! Besides, you didn't come across as the sole person with all the knowledge whilst eveyone else is wrong...

Spoken like a true Brit!!

I think this is a good theory...at least as a foundation for a track with other aspects added...

There are 67 press accounts of the elements suite describing  earth, air, fire and water as the sections - so we know that was at least the intention at one point.

Vegatables (cornucopia version) was likely earth (the Holmes drawing caption, which could only have come from Van Dyke), fire we know, water - water chant for sure, but was that all that was going into the water section?

Brian was asked by Byron Preiss's researchers about the Elements and although I don't have the quote handy, the question went something like this:  We know water was I Love to Say Dada, and earth was Vegetables, what was Air going to be?  To which he responded with the now famous reply about an unfinished piano instrumental.

This was in 1978 - if Country Air had been air, that had been finished on Wild Honey, and surely Brian would have mentioned the title.

He didn't contradict the interviewers' assumption that water was Dada and earth was Vegetables, but he may have (and likely did) ignore that part of the question and simply address the air issue.  Interestingly, when the Preiss book described the Dada track, it is clear they are really describing the water chant.  Dada was first linked to Water by Carl in 1972 when he announced that Smile would be coming out and one track would be I Love to Say Dada (incorporating Cool Cool Water) - of course, Cool Cool Water was a Wild Honey track but was first attempted June 67.  Cool Cool Water is  similar musically to Dada.  And Brian made Dada part of the Elements on BWPS (but of course that was Darian's decision! :)).

With Vegetables becoming its' own track, what could have replaced it as Earth?  Something that had been bumped out of it's original song, Heroes and Villains, perhaps?  Although I think Barnyard would have moved to I'm in Great Shape, it might make an interesting earth section.  Have to do an edit of that when I get the upgraded Barnyard in the new set.

Finally read Goodbye Surfin... saw that in there... thing about that article I think might be happening.. I think the writer was looking for ways to give Brian an edge, but it comes off as manic at times... I had to go back and put time and space between certain happenings or quotes(if the quotes are verbatim). Without air, it all runs together and left me feeling like I would run out of breath trying to keep up. Interesting read, nonetheless... especially that pile of acetates mentioned.

Sadly, he wasn't - all those boxed quotes are taken from various magazines down the years. Which would have been cool, if they'd been given a source... but they weren't and the few mystery quotes remain just that.

Suggested reading - Light The Lamp! - Peter Reum sheds a light on SMiLE
http://www.vandykeparks.com/miscfiles/opensky.html

I hope it's okay to post the link here. Everything you need to know is there.

The song fire is just about fire, fire doesn't contain earth water or air. These things are pure, they can't be divided up any further. They are simply themselves. They're elements. Today we've replaced this notion with the chemical elements on the periodic table. But the idea is the same. All matter can be broken down into some combination of the four elements. I didn't say that each element must contain elements of the other three. That's actually precisely the opposite of what I said. The fact that MOC doesn't evoke the other four elements is exactly what makes it elemental. I'm not quite sure what you're getting at with the above comment.

Trees are not the same thing as earth. Yes, Earth is a planet, and plants and animals live on it. But earth, the element, is dirt. The element earth does not include just everything within the planet Earth's biosphere. Plants grow out of dirt, but that does not mean they are the element earth. Plants and animals, by mass, are mostly water after all. Why would slowly creeping fauna (i.e. animals that are >50% water) represent the earth element in particular? In the scheme of the classical elements plants and animals contain different proportions of all four elements. A jungle just isn't any more aligned to the element earth than it is to the other three elements. Wood contains fire, plants need water to grow, and all the animals of the jungle breath air. I just don't feel like the connection is there. If the song is about plants and animals, why does that mean it has to be about earth? Why couldn't the song just as easily be about water, air, or fire?

So okay, jungles are not any more earth than they are fire wind or water, right? But you say, maybe Brian was using these things to represent earth. But why? Earth represent itself. Earth is earth. Earth embodies lethargy, mass, weight, gravity, practicality etc etc. Any song about earth would likely want to represent those qualities. In astrology, an earth person is supposed to be more conventional, safe, sturdy, and practical. A massive jungle full of wild animals would never be called any of those things. So why would Brian use those things to represent earth? They don't embody any of the traits earth is supposed to possess.

It seems to me, and this of course isn't meant as an insult or anything, that you're making too strong a connection between the element earth and just nature. You're thinking about earth more in a "Mother Earth" type way, but that's not the same thing as the element earth.

Personally I just don't see a good reason to believe that Fall Breaks is Earth. So the song evokes plants and animals for you. That doesn't make the song about earth, the element. The fact that the song is called "Fall Breaks and Back to Winter" tells you what the song is about, it's about winter. When I listen to the song I don't hear anything about jungles, I hear howling winter winds. Whether or not the song evokes that for you, you can't deny that the title does indicate going "back to winter". I'd say that Brian simply took his one riff that he liked, the MOC riff, that, yes, was also connected to other songs as well, and simply re-purposed it yet again into a totally new song that was conceptually completely unrelated to either "The Elements" or SMiLE.

Um.........
Right..

So, you cracked first.

In the case of the infamous "Air" quote, Brian was asked *something* related to that while the band was at MIU as Bicyclerider mentioned, and the "piano piece" quote was Brian's answer: This one at least can be pegged to an actual event rather than an unnamed source or random article. I know this because that researcher (we'll call him JD...) was a visitor on an earlier BB's board and answered the question directly. If he is still around, I hope he chimes in on this: The only contact I had was posting a question to him on a board and reading the reply. If someone knows him personally maybe they could ask him directly too and clear it all up.

That single quote has carried a lot of weight in the past 30+ years! I guess because folks like Vosse and Anderle have said they didn't know what Air would have been, in quotes only a year or so removed from the actual Smile project.

Hang on, 18th of May, Fishmonk *does* have a point there that it's not fair to simply dismiss out of hand. Even if a given song from the SMiLE sessions has some connection to a later track on Smiley Smile (and as we all know, several of them do, either lyrically or musically), it's not necessarily fair to assume that the Smiley number has the SAME underlying concept (musically OR lyrically) as its SMiLE ancestor.

OK, so Wind Chimes, H&V, Wonderful and Vegetables on Smiley Smile have *direct* antecedents in the SMiLE sessions (and I guess Good Vibrations, kinda - it's just the same song). And there are many musically related SMiLE/Smiley Smile parts. But the later tracks are often completely different lyrically, musically, or in thematic terms. Obvious examples first: even amongst the tracks with the same names, Wind Chimes is a ton creepier, more discordant and 'darker' on Smiley Smile. Wonderful and parts of Heroes & Villains too (in my opinion).

And amongst the less closely related tracks... well, as I sort of said on another thread recently, "Keeni Wak A Pula" doesn't mean 'Remember The Day, Remember the Night', and worms have nothing obvious to do with whistling (or, more specifically, 'Whistle In'), despite the strong musical connection between the two. The ancient concept of four underlying, indivisible Elements and a famous fire-raising cow don't have anything to do with the end of Autumn and the beginning of Winter (or Woody Woodpecker, come to that). And if you put the circular piano riff from the end of 'Child Is Father Of The Man' (well, the ending of that track as it was on Brian's 2004 version of SMiLE, anyway - that bit with the muted trumpet, anyway...) from a minor key into a major one, you get the intro riff for 'Getting Hungry'... but the theme of 'Getting Hungry' is not a happier version of 'Child Is Father Of The Man'. In fact, it seems to be about a man, uh, well, consumed with desire, frankly.

There are those here that have said that 'Little Pad' is a simplified 'Cabin Essence', reduced in scope and ambition both musically and thematically. I can't say I see it myself — I see a very little bit of a musical connection (the quarter-note feel in the opening verses of 'CE' is also there in 'LP', for example, but that's hardly a huge connection that uniquely binds these two songs). And there's a whole load of OTHER stuff in Little Pad that ISN'T in Cabin Essence (a Hawaiian theme; beautiful humming vocals; an organ-driven semi-chorus; and a stoned-sounding intro), and vice versa (*dramatic* dynamic contrasts between the verses and chorus; chromatic bass runs; 'orientalised' instrumentation with non-Western scales; and complex, elegant 'Parksian' lyrics encompassing concepts as diverse as the feeling of a dwelling on a frontier settlement, the all-consuming effect of the coming of the railroad on the same, and 'the oriental mind going off on a different track'. To say nothing of the dear old crow and his cornfield which were so beloved of Mr Love, and the thresher and his wheatfield!). Surely it's more accurate to say that there are more differences than similarities between these two tracks?

Put simply: if something planned for SMiLE resembles something on Smiley Smile, doesn't mean it *necessarily* ended up as the same kind of artistic statement there. And that surely holds true for SMiLE-era fragments that were recycled *later* than Smiley Smile, too. So just because the bass line from a SMiLE-era version of Wind Chimes ended up in 'Can't Wait Too Long', doesn't mean the latter was about some wind chimes. And, perhaps more controversially, I would contend that just because I Love To Say Dada musically resembles Cool Cool Water on Sunflower, and because that 1970 track also incorporates the SMiLE-era 'Water Chant', it still doesn't *necessarily* follow that 'I Love To Say Dada' was going to be the 'Water' section of The Elements on SMiLE in 1966-7.

I mean that the relationship in the later tracks doesn't guarantee that the relationship was definitely there in the earlier tracks at the time they were originally recorded.

MattB

apologies in advance, you've probably answered this elsewhere, but which fragment do you feel best represents earth? swedish frog? was it a pythagorean trip and the earth element was to represent the sphere in its placement in the frequency spectrum of the heavens?

according to fludd's universal music terra is Γ, or low G. is swedish frog grunting in a low G? maybe you would need to speed it up to determine. what other chants did he compose in G?

i like this as a model for the proper smile element suite: http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta19.htm (http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/sta/sta19.htm)

earth, water, air, fire...or maybe the other way around

sorry im still pretty new to smile. the elements are really fascinating! i appreciate all the knowledge you guys provide.

I can't see any specific fragment representing "earth", however something around the "vegetables" concept would be my best guess. Look to the chants: water is pretty obvious, air is pretty easy to spot if "air" represents breathing rather than wind, and that leaves earth, which would be the vegetables theme.

The confusing thing is how Brian's interests were literally scattered all over the place at this time, as someone has mentioned. So he could have been referencing astrology, numerology, alchemy, Subud, or simply eating healthy vegetables at one point or another. It's very hard to pinpoint, which makes it fun.

"Swedish Frog"? Goofing around in the studio is my guess for that fragment's origin rather than something that could be attached to another theme. But again, it's all in what you hear.

That would be seriously helpful. That said, my faith in the accuracy of 1977 BDW answering a question about something that happened 11 years previously is very low.

To be honest, I put "Air as a piano piece" in the same category as Barnyard Billy and strings on Surf's Up Pt. 2

The accuracy and dependability of a single quote from Brian can be debated all day long, but it remains a direct quote from Brian himself. The only hard audio evidence to possibly connect something to an air theme other than Wind Chimes is the breathing clip, and that was far from a musical statement, more like a studio experiment.

Barnyard Billy loves his chickens...that was kind of funny for Brian to throw all the Smile folks a bone like that. It would be better if an outtake surfaced on this box with that very vocal line somewhere on Barnyard! :-D

Hurrah!!! I've been dying for someone to get into this side of SMiLE, i'm a bit weak on this but really really interested in it!!

Anymore info on this and SMiLE?? please say yes!!

I suppose if we had never heard the Fire element and he described it as a string and timpani piece, we would be as equally incredulous. In my mind when he says a piano piece, I just imagine some tinkering on a piano, which of course couldn't possibly represent Air. I still find it somewhat improbably, but who knows?

Dude, you couldn't even make ONE post that wasn't like this. All your stuff about being respectful is smoke, you're just a troll and that should be clear to everyone now.

Well firstly I think an order of the elements would go, Fire, Earth, Air, Water. The fact that Brian started with Fire says something. Even when he might not have had an idea of what the other three elements would be, he was still pretty clear on Fire being first. Why? Well in astrology the first sign is Aries, a fire sign. Then Taurus, Gemini, and Cancer, Earth, Air, and Water. That pattern then repeats another two times. Might Brian have been following this order? That would make Earth second.

Let's talk about I Wanna Be Around as earth. Now we know Carol Kaye said that this represented earth and was to follow Fire. How true is this? This comment is mostly dismissed, did it turn out Carol wasn't actually at that session? Or did other people there contradict her?

In the early 60s a number of artists recorded I Wanna Be Around, it's a popular song, established, safe, practical. A standard. A popular cover. That sounds like earth doesn't it? In a way, this would be very clever I think. Earth is sturdy, what's sturdier than a cover? Even the lyrics "I wanna be around to pick up the pieces, When somebody breaks your heart" have an air of dependability and reliability, like "you can count on me".

Lots of people say that the elements were separate from the rest of SMiLE, and didn't really thematically fit in. But Fire clearly snaps into the Americana theme. Do you think a completed Elements would have looked like this?

The Elements
-Mrs. O'leary's Fire (Fire)
-Earth
-Air
-Water

Which of those things is not like the others? If you're going to do a suite of four songs representing four members of a group, why have one of them stand out like that? Could it be possible that all four elements were to be based in americana? If Earth was a cover, then that's a continuation of that theme. Could we have the same thing for air and water?

Air is about intellectualism. Air is more about rationality and thought. Water is the element of the subconscious, it's tied with emotion, creativity and sentimentality. I think the two songs representing air and water would represent those traits. Any ideas?

No, not in the same way that Fire sounds like Fire. When I hear Mrs. O'Leary's Cow, I don't need to be told that it's part of an Elements suite, or any contextual information. Nor do I need to know a single solitary thing about astrology, Ancient Greece, Buddhism, etc. The track simply evokes the sounds of Fire to any casual audience in the Western world. The same can be said for the Water Chant, whether it was meant to be part of the Elements or not. I think why so many people are compelled to believe that the Water Chant was Water is because it plays the same aural trick that MOC does.


Well, you're specifically thinking about one of the particularly astrological understandings of Earth. In the meantime, you are omitting not only the other astrological meanings, but also all the other cultural assumptions regarding the Earth element. There's nothing about MOC that leads me to believe that Brian was inserting astrological characteristics into the sound of the Elements. Sure you could say that Fire sounds "rebellious" and "angry". But you can also say it sounds like Fire, which would naturally sound angry. Don't forget too that Wilson later said that you could make a track called Fire and have it sound like a candle. So, clearly, he was more about sonically capturing the word, not capturing other words that are associated with that word. Word?

I also don't really think that it's clever because it just requires too much work on the part of the listener in order for it to make sense. Part of Wilson's genius, after all, was making something very complex appear to be not complex at all.


Well, if the theme of Smile is experimental music that had not really been heard much in pop music, then it absolutely fits in.


In title only, unlike H&V, DYLW, Wonderful, and Cabin Essence. Am I missing anything?


No, I think the elements would have looked like a track called "The Elements", just as it appeared on the note to Capitol. In fact, we know that that is indeed how it would have looked on the album jacket.

Anyway, I'm not too sure on this, but wasn't MOC simply referred to as "Fire" during the Smile sessions?

Random observation:

I have been listening to The Versatile Henry Mancini this afternoon and, not only does it have a tremendous Pet Sounds feel (I've read this album did influence Pet Sounds), but I noticed the song 'The Breeze and I' opens with what sounds like wind-chimes (to signify wind). Granted, this doesn't have to do with the supposed piano track dubbed 'Air' - but perhaps Brian carried over his influence of Mancini from Pet Sounds to SMiLE for the song 'Windchimes'.

I know there was the photo of Brian with Ahbez taken during the SMiLE sessions, but has Brian ever talked about Ahbez influencing his music? Or is the answer in the elusive 'Dumb Angel Gazette #4'?

Actually, we don't know that at all, because it isn't true: what CK said was that Brian told her it represented the rebuilding after the fire (the 'woodshop' part) - nothing about Earth - and yes, she was on the 11/29/66 session, playing guitar. No-one else has ever said anything like that... but irrespective, she never said it was Earth.

The AFM sheet says "The Elements (Fire)", and in the Siegel article, Brian calls it "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" - the 'cow' bit seems to be a reasonably recent addition.

Lots of good points rockandroll.
The title MOF comes from the Goodbye Surfing article, Brian told Jules Siegel that it would be called that.

I think capitol really jumped the gun printing the sleeves. If Brian had finished SMiLE in 1967 the tracklisting on the back may well have been totally incorrect. Capitol may have printed all new sleeves, and if not I think all future printings would have a revised tracklisting printed on the back to you know, match the actual content of the album.

So maybe on the second printing we'd have:

The Elements:
Mrs. O'leary's Fire
Earth
Air
Water

You say that Fire was americana "in title only", well isn't title important? The title pretty clearly places the song in the americana context. Why Brian would introduce this naming convention for only the first part and then simply leave the other three with boring titles like that seems kind of odd.

I think the only reason that we all universally agree the song evokes fire is that the title leaves no question that it is fire. If it wasn't for the title, we'd probably have some people saying that it evoked something different. Maybe most of us would hear fire, but if it wasn't for the title I don't think we'd ever know concretely, I'm sure some fans would argue all types of things about the song.

Thanks for the clarification. I really didn't know which is why I asked.
If there is any truth to the order Fire-Earth-Air-Water, if Brian picked up on that ordering as it exists in astrology, then part 2 of The Elements would likely be earth, and if IWBA/Friday Night/Woodshop/Workshop would follow Fire, then, well you get the picture.

I really think the whole thing is questionable. Would The Elements have even included all four elements? Would it have included just four sections only? Would it even have been all a single continuous medley? We have evidence pointing in different directions, but it's all very fuzzy, I think we can say very little about the track.

Quite likely, but Capitol didn't jump the gun: based on what Brian had told them, i.e. that he would "in all probability" deliver the Smile master by 1/15/67 (internal memo from Karl Engemann dated 12/16/66), they needed something to put on the back of the cover. Remember, previously Brian had always delivered on time. I know some folk here don't care for my fact based nuts and bolts approach to Smile, but there are some things you can't just wish away or ignore. Capitol were doing what they did because they trusted Brian to fulfil his side of the deal.

I think the elements/astrology notion has merit - Brian was into astrology in a big way then and it ties in nicely with the back sleeve.

Only in the context of Smile would as early as 1972 be considered "recent."  :lol

Well, like AGD suggests above, they had to print up something assuming that the album would be finished.


I think that the order would have been different on the album itself, certainly. Nevertheless, the track listing is a pretty good indication of where Brian's head was at for Smile in December '66, which was pretty much when his vision for the album reached its climax. After December 15th, the album was largely abandoned.


I don't think they would have wasted the money of making new sleeves. Wasn't there a note about "see the vinyl for correct playing order" or something to that effect? I think they accepted the list knowing that the actual track list on the album wouldn't correlate.


Maybe. But "Fire" was understood to be simply part of "The Elements" both in its recording and in its listing to Capitol. So my hunch is that "Mrs. O'Leary's Fire" wasn't official at the time despite Brian calling it that in an interview or it may have been the title before Brian conceived of The Elements as a track.


Well, ultimately, "Fire" is simply part of a track that has the title The Elements, which I think is important.

Yes, titles are important but I'm simply saying that it doesn't quite fit in with the other tracks in the same way you are suggesting.


No one is suggesting that, though. Some people argue that, say, Air is Wind Chimes. Others will argue that Air is something we don't know. I, meanwhile, am suggesting that there was really just one title.


Maybe, but that's not really to my point. I am comparing Fire to your assertion that "I Wanna Be Around" could be Earth. For MOC, I could see someone saying, "Hey that totally sounds like a fire" and someone else saying, "No, it sounds like a fire engine, not a fire." That would be very likely. But I can't imagine sitting in a room, listening to "I Wanna Be Around" on its own (completely divorced from any known context of The Elements) and someone saying, "This totally sounds like Earth." I can only assume that the follow up would be: "What do you mean?" "Well, it's a cover." "Yeah?" "Well, you know a cover is something durable." "It is?" "Well, sure. It's something you can depend on." "It is?" "In that it's safe. You know, it's been recorded a bunch of times so people know it. It's part of a tradition." "Oh, I see. Wait a minute - why is that like Earth?" "Well, stability is a characteristic of the Earth sign in astrology." "I thought it was sensuality." "Well, that's one of them. But stability is one too." "Oh." "So, it sounds like Earth, doesn't it?" "I guess. If by Earth you really mean stability and therefore every cover of a traditional song sounds like Earth. Then, yes, it sounds like Earth." "Boo ya!"

I am not trying to be silly here. I'm just saying the differences between the two examples are too astronomically different. But it also shows the kind of difficulty that Brian certainly would have had in creating a piece where someone could say: "That sounds like Earth" and someone else would say: "I was just about to say that too!" After all, what the hell does Earth sound like? I couldn't tell ya, but something tells me the same man who wrote Mrs. O'Leary's Fire and the Water Chant could in November 1966.

i wanna be a round like a dough nut slamma jamma canon balla outta space man

Troll.....Yeah sure champ no worries! I was posting from my phone and a significant portion failed to appear! What I said was that you provided a really long post from a one sentence quote. And it was impressive... Nevertheless

Found an interesting history page on the Chicago Fire. http://www.thechicagofire.com/index.php
Did the cow do it?

Another thing I remembered today was the Stone Soup story...
The stone is put into a pot of water and cooked on an open fire. Passersby add ingredients, or additional elements, and the tasty aroma fills the air.
A story of cooperation... working together. 

Music of the Spheres. I thought about that, as well. The idea that the song keys were important and the track list would create a chromatic road map.
From the link provided... "These sounds of the seven planets, and the sphere of the fixed stars, together with that above us [Antichthon], are the nine Muses, and their joint symphony is called Mnemosyne.'" (See The Canon.)This quotation contains an obscure reference to the ninefold division of the universe previously mentioned." Reminds me of string theory or M-theory... vibrating strings.

Air - Piano piece????? - could be anything from a multiple piano thing to a rough demo type thing a la Don't Talk - don't all of Brian's songs start life as a piano piece

Why are we over complicating this

MOC - obviously is Fire
VT - obviously Earth - the song title and the booklet
WC - very likely Air despite what Brian says - the title says it all - plus all those pianos

Water - well probably DaDA - see BWPS for the answer

Except that it's listed as a separate song by mid-December.

Yes but the name, the cartoon, BWPS all outweigh a tracklisting that was still awaiting final final sign off (sequence, artwork proofs etc). Also a tracklisting can be presented in any way you choose - I know its one of the great mysteries but I can be a dickwad for 10 minutes too

Um. As evidence of how "The Elements" was going to sound in 1966/67, I'd call a 2004 BWPS sequence pretty shaky.  ;D

We shall see

Seeing as BWPS is being used as a template for the 'reconstruction', no contest.

ahh that word 'template' -such agood one ;)

You run into the same problem with vegetables though as you do with Fall Breaks. Vegetables aren't really earth are they? They're plants that grow out of earth. Vegetables aren't elemental. Earth is dirt, not anything that grows out of dirt. Vegetables contain water don't they? They're just not elemental...

"well he was just using vegetables as a metaphor for dirt", well I still believe that he was doing that with vegetables=drugs. Drug song, not element song.

Or as I believe, "Vega-Tables" = vegetables. Health food song, not element - or drug - song.

I think that Brian probably, very early on, had an idea for all the elements-for example, Vega-Tables was earth-and then around the end of November decided that Elements was only gonna be Fire and Water. Just a hunch.

I hesitate to bring this up again, but we don't really know that "Water Chant" was a water chant, right?

We know that the Beach Boys decided to use it as part of "Cool, Cool Water" and may have done so, in part, because the "wa-doo" vocals sound an awful lot like "water". But do we believe the chant sounds like water flowing because we're conditioned by "Cool, Cool Water" to hear it that way?

Was this segment actually labeled "Water Chant" in '66/'67?

No, not for sure, Roger... but something very *like* the Water Chant was described in the article 'Smile, Brian, and pull them strings', reprinted in LLVS, where it was described how Brian was directing the creation of an evocation of  'underwater life'. That's close enough for me, although I grant you that it's not a definitive identification. And it could refer to those 'Fishy Swim' chants, I suppose (which I can't remember if I've ever actually heard or not... one SMiLE-era chant starts to sound very like another after all these years...!).

It's a good point though, and one I made the other day here... just because something was stitched together in a certain way on a later album (like the Water Chant and a track  musically resembling I Love To Say Dada to form 'Cool, Cool Water' on Sunflower), doesn't mean that's how it might have been on SMiLE if it had been finished in 1966-7. It also doesn't necessarily mean that particular SMiLE-era chant is a 'Water Chant', just because it was in a track with 'Water' in the title three years later. Or, indeed, that 'I Love To Say Dada' was 'the Water section of The Elements'. If there even WAS one of those...

Question everything...! The only problem with that approach is... you end up with many more questions than answers...!

MattB

I'm pretty sure the article is describing the "Fishy Swim" chant - if I'm not mistaken, it goes on to quote Brian saying that he'll try something similar with the Beach Boys when they're back in town.  He wouldn't say that if he was talking about Water Chant, which was already recorded with the Beach Boys, whereas "Fishy Swim" wasn't - then again, maybe he recorded a demo with the Vosse posse that he later re-did with the Boys, and that's what he's describing.

The two are too similar, imo.

I don't know, they've never sounded very similar to my ears - one contains singing (albiet very odd non-traditional singing) and a lot of echo and the other is all spoken word with no studio effects to speak of.

I was thinking today about the elements as a soup recipe, but then the recording session described in Goodbye Surfin' has Brian saying that Fire will scare people. Fire references The Chicago Fire... what if Earth was to be The San Francisco Earthquake? Water might have been a flood and Air could have been... not sure, maybe a Hurricane or something. Fire didn't become negative until actual fires broke out and that's when the direction would change. So it is very possible the original idea was to have these elements exhibit an actual historical disaster. Nature's reminders. Ever see George Carlin's take on how Mother Nature deals with us stupid humans? All that changed and now we have the elements relating to spiritual matters... Fire is probably the only recording made of the original concept, but it still works on a different level. Mrs. O'Leary really doesn't know how the fire started, but was told someone went into the barn to milk her cows. It could be the cow never actually started the fire, but history has Mrs. O'Leary carrying that weight. The cow ends up as a metaphor for that burden... lay before me holy cow... lay my burden down.

That's exactly what I assumed Brian meant, Chris - in other words, that he'd sort of 'demoed' something he liked the idea of with the Vosse Posse, and he was going to record it 'properly' for the album with the voices of the other Beach Boys when they returned from tour. And then THAT 'proper re-record' ends up being what we know as Water Chant.

You say:


IS there a definite date for the recording of the Water Chant with the Boys? And if so, when was it? Sorry, didn't know that.

The 'Smile, Brian, and pull them strings' article has to have been written in late 1966 from the sessions it describes which *can* be tied to specific dates. And for some reason I had it in mind that the Water Chant was undated or was thought to have been a 1967 recording. Really not sure though...!

MattB

The track list Brian Wilson sent to Capitol was awaiting Brian Wilson's final sign off?  The way you wrote it makes it sound like someone just put together a track list and they were waiting for Brian to veto or approve it. As the producer of the album Brian was the source of the list. Of course, as producer he was the one person that could change his mind, make revisions, etc.

I don't understand why the '66 handwritten list isn't given more weight. It came from Brian and it's the only 1966/67 track list known to exist. Obviously there is still much unknown/unfinished but that list is by far the best we have.

It's not given the weight it once was because...

1 - it's not Brian's handwriting (looks to be Carl's or Diane's, I forget which)...

2 - when Peter Reum showed it to him in the early 80s (granted, not the best period of his life), he said he'd never seen it before.

The feeling is that Capitol were screaming for something to put on the back cover and someone (not BW) hastily scrawled down the titles that they knew about.

That's more to do with the idea. Fishy Swim is a casual recording with people who can't sing and are quite stoned. And there is some echo on some of the them, iirc. But it's still evoking water, in my eyes (or ears). They still drone, with repetition (mumma-mumma-now vs. down on the ocean, down on the ocean floor) and the same 'vibe', i suppose.

1 - whether Diane (it's Diane according to the Blueboard, isn't it?) - Brian's assistant and musical contractor for the Smile sessions - or Carl, it still came from Brian - whether a hasty list or not.  And he knew it would be used as the track list for the back cover, that was the purpose of submitting the list.

2 - is this really surprizing? While Brian's memory can be remarkable at times, there are definite holes and many of his statements can't be taken as fact.  As you point out, particularly in the early 80's cocaine days.

The evidence exists in those chants from 1966: Vosse's "Teen Set" piece is indeed describing the underwater chant session exactly as it appears. And the "Water" themed section of those chants develops into a droning, meditative, and rhythmic chant onto which Brian is inspired to add tape echo effects...and it's quite amazing to consider it all came from Brian's basic directive to improvise an underwater scene as they were in the studio. That one skit worked, it worked very well to my ears, and as Vosse reported, Brian wanted to try it with the Beach Boys when they returned from the tour because he got something worthwhile on tape during this improvisation session, unlike other failed attempts.

It's as obvious as it can be when you hear the similarities between Water Chant and the "Underwater" skit by Vosse and the crew. I'd take that one to the bank, it's all on tape.

The experimental chant dates to November 1966, as the band was touring Europe. The Water Chant a.k.a. "Wha-Doo" chant was recorded later.

I haven't heard the "underwater" skit, but if the similarities are there, then it does seem pretty probable that the "Water Chant" would have found its way into "The Elements". As it is, BWPS does segue directly into it from "Mrs. O'Leary's Cow", although the "water" aspect of the chant is obscured by the new lyrics.

I don't think suggesting that Brian never got around to recording the Earth and Air sections of The Elements track is complicating anything. I think that's much more convincing than suggesting that Vegetables is Earth and Wind Chimes is Air. If Wind Chimes is "Air" because of the title, then that would make I'm In Great Shape an even likelier candidate as it has "'freshin' air around my head" in the lyric.

Right but (as you know) none of that changes that it almost certainly came from Brian. Regardless of any extenuating circumstances that is what he delivered to the label and absent the discovery of any later list it's the best we have.

I'd be inclined to give it less weight if it wasn't for the fact that Brian didn't do any significant work outside of those titles in the preceding 3 months not to mention be period up to Derek Taylor's announcement. If there was a glut of Look or Holidays sessions in, let's say, Jan. 1967 I'd say it diminishes the importance of the tracklist but this is not the case.

That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf or Cabinessence is water because it has Grand Coolie Dam in the song

How do we know he never recorded Earth and Air???

So you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion now?


Good question. Here's a good one along the same lines: how do you prove a negative?

According to the Preiss book, he started "Air".

A. Not really cos my view is based on more than just a name - booklet, piano piece in WC, BWPS and various boots, etc, etc

B. How do you prove a negative - in a court of law or on a Smile Sessions Box Set but I suppose that even if Wind Chimes is identified as the air element then there will be many here who will say its not right

So you're going back on your position that "the title says it all"?


What booklet suggests that Wind Chimes was Air?


Just because Wind Chimes has a piano piece in it doesn't make the song a piano piece. You could make this claim about a lot of Smile material based on that kind of reasoning.


Neither of which are useful models for helping our understanding of Brian's 1966 vision for the album.

The fact is that by December of 1966, neither Wind Chimes nor Vegetables were considered part of The Elements. Furthermore, the recording sheet for Mrs. O'Leary's Fire lists the track as "The Elements: Fire". The same cannot be said for either Wind Chimes or Vegetables. In that case, we can say without question that neither at the recording stage nor in the track listing stage were either track considered part of The Elements.


What do you mean "identified"? How will it be identified? Maybe some studio notes or a word spoken at sessions - but I would find that very surprising given that Wind Chimes appears to have been recorded well before Brian began work on The Elements, since nearly four months passed between the recording of Wind Chimes (recorded at the beginning of the Smile sessions) and Mrs. O'Leary's Fire (one of the last musical pieces recorded for Smile before Brian began focusing on vocals, H&V, and Vegetables). But if such documentation does exist, how could anyone "say its not right"?

A. I think you'll find I was just referring to WIND Chimes re titles. The clue to air is in the word WIND

B. Booklet - I never said Air was in a booklet - I said Vegetables

C. Wind Chimes piano piece - yes agree you could say that about probably all of Smile - in fact I made that point myself - but in Wind Chimes case listen to 1.31 onwards on the 30 years box set - if I am not mistaken they sound awfully like a whole load of pianos.

D. BWPS/Bootlegs - Actually I partly agree although I think BWPS DOES offer an insight to 1966 SMILE that is supported by various bits and pieces - eg Prayer opens the album, H&V is a Cantina version, Worms is virtually untouched apart from the addition of 66 lyrics, OMP/YAMS as is, Barnyard virtually untouched and with 66 lyrics, Surf's Up virtually untouched apart from addition of 2nd movement strings, etc. Whilst I agree there are some parts I find difficult to accept as 66 Smile (segues, OAH, SFC and the make up of the 3rd movement for example), I think BWPS rightly forms the template for the forthcoming release.

The problem we all have is that we don't really know what the finished SMILE was going to be because it was never finished. And when you count them up how many tracks were totally finished - ie finally constructed and mixed before Smile was abandoned. Personally I don't think any were completely finished and in a state to be mastered with the exception of GV and maybe Prayer (if that counts).

E. What evidence do you have that by December 66 that neither Wind Chimes or VT were NOT part of the Elements??? As we know a load Smile stuff got recorded for certain songs then removed and sometimes put back in - the HV/IIGS/Barnyard piano demo for example, the endless Bicycle Rider themes, and so on

F. Identified - quite simply that the sleeve notes say that WC or part of it is the air part of The Elements. If it doesn't I will be totally cool with that - whatever the Elements turns out as (with explanations) is fine with me - I won't be arguing whether its right. I shall accept the integrity of those who put it together.

G. I accept that the timing of WC recording sessions may appear to be too early for the Elements although some took place after CE sessions) that doesn't rule out a decision to make it Air later - the only fact we know is that so far no firm evidence has ever surfaced about exactly what air was/is. Like everyone else on this board, I am speculating

H. Vegetables does have the booklet irrespective of recording dates - when did FH deliver the artwork by the way????

Anyway on the wider issue, we all have our theories about what Smile would have been and we all respect each others views which is great.

I can't wait for the boxset to be released - it will no doubt divide the board just as BWPS has

I love the Smile music I have heard (66 or BWPS although I think the instrumental tracks from 66 are far far superior to the BWPS versions). It is the perfect blend of Brian's musical genius, VDP fitting lyrics, the musicianship of the Wrecking Crew, and where we've heard them the vocals of the Beach Boys.

Again from a personal point of view Smile is all about, Heroes and Villains (whatever version you can dream up with IIGS, Cantina, YAMS etc) but not Smiley Smile), Wonderful, Cabinessence, Surf's Up. Those songs were written in the sandbox (there may be a couple more), VDP and Brian working together on their Gothic Trip.

A Smile album with the following tracks

H&V, IIGS, BY, SU, CE, YAMS, OMP, W, DYLW would be good enough for me

They're listed as separate tracks on the back cover, which means that for at least a few days in mid-December 1966, they weren't part of "The Elements".

AGD - you yourself said the list was unreliable and that wasn't Brian's - Diane's writing at least I think you said. Also was the back cover properly printed - and add to the fact they can't even spell properly means that back cover wasn't signed off by The Beach Boys - diminishing its status. Does the specific absence of Barnyard, Prayer and YAMS means they weren't going t be included in December 66???

Yes, but now we're back to where we were before. If you think that the clue to air is the word "WIND", then why is it perposterous that the clue to air may be the word "AIR" that basically begins I'm In Great Shape - a song, one could suggest, about getting outdoors in the open country.

I think it's amusing that you find that idea perposterous that I'm in Great Shape is "air" because it contains the word "air" but absolutely plausible that Wind Chimes is "air" because the contains the word "wind". Your attempts to critique IIGS as air only served to contradict your own position. You noted: "That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf". What's interesting is that the word "Surf" is not the same as the word "Water" but the word "Air" is the same as the word "Air" but not the same as the word "Wind". By your own standards, IIGS is more likely a candidate for Air than Wind Chimes. But, of course, my own position is that there isn't much evidence to suggest that either track was Air.


That's funny because if you follow the thread that led you to use the booklet as a clue, you'll find that in fact we have been specifically talking about Wind Chimes. Let me show you how the conversation went:

You: WC - very likely Air despite what Brian says - the title says it all - plus all those pianos
Me: If Wind Chimes is "Air" because of the title, then that would make I'm In Great Shape an even likelier candidate as it has "'freshin' air around my head" in the lyric.
You: That's like saying Surf's Up is Water because of the word surf or Cabinessence is water because it has Grand Coolie Dam in the song
Me: So you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion now?
You: Not really cos my view is based on more than just a name - booklet, piano piece in WC, BWPS and various boots, etc, etc
Me: What booklet suggests that Wind Chimes was Air?
You: I never said Air was in a booklet - I said Vegetables

Yes, we have talked about Vegetables throughout but you'll note that my point that "you're highlighting the poorness of your own assertion" was strictly connected to our discussion on Wind Chimes. The fact that you brought up the booklet in response to that was mere confusion if you didn't mean to be talking about Wind Chimes.



Of course. But that has nothing to do with what Brian has said about Air. He has never described as a song that has "a whole load of pianos" that come in about halfway through.


Well, that's not BWPS offering insight. BWPS itself was led to picking Our Prayer as the opening track because we know that that's where Brian intended the track to go, as per the original recording sessions. It was the original sessions that offered insight for the construction of BWPS, not the other way around.


We always knew there was a Cantina version of H&V in the Smile era. Like Surf's Up on BWPS though, the BWPS version of H&V shows how the primary goal of BWPS was plainly to not to try to replicate any conclusive intentions that Brian may have had for Smile. After all, H&V on BWPS is mostly the Smiley Smile version recorded after Smile had been junked with Cantina thrown in for good measure.


How does Brian leaving songs untouched give us any insight into Smile that we didn't already have?


And the Child ending that wasn't added until 1971.


I'm not sure what you mean by that. How will it be a template?


Andrew dealt with this above. The track listing given to Capitol stressed that Wind Chimes and Vegetables and The Elements were all separate tracks. The difference between the HV/IIGS/Barnyard example is that there is no proof that Wind Chimes was EVER part of The Elements and, I don't believe, much proof to suggest that Vegetables as we know it was part of it either.


Is or was? There is no doubt that in absence of an actual "Air" track, Wind Chimes has performed that role many a-time but that doesn't give us any indication of what The Elements was.


But we're not just talking about what "the Elements turn out as". If they don't have an existing track for "The Elements: Air" or "The Elements: Earth" then there's only so much explaining they can do.


Yes. So, then, if that's the case, why did you introduce your speculation as an attempt to make things less complicated?


Great question - I was wondering that myself.

Maybe Andrew can clear this up but I would imagine that the drawings for Vegetables were done largely before the Smile version of Vegetable was tracked (I thought it was a later Smile number)

In the Vosse interview he talks about The Elements. He says it had 4 parts,

"For example, he was doing a four part suite called "The Elements", and the fire section of its was all done with percussion instruments. It was like Stravinsky. It was beautifully done, and lasted about two minutes. You've heard all about that thing, with the tape and the fire destroying it. Well that happened, but it didn't mean anything. But at the same time he did that, he took the tail end of "Wind Chimes" - which the way it was originally recorded, was again much more beautiful than on Smiley Smile - and he had a minute and a half tag on it where he took a stand-up tack piano and a grand piano and a track at a time did little music-box overdubs; and then he went in and mixed them with different echoes on different channels into...I've never heard anything like..."

Could he be saying that part is Air? Maybe, it's not clear if he means to relate the two tracks.
Both Anderle and Vosse have said it was a four part suite. Which is seeming like a stronger confirmation that as it was originally conceived it had four parts.

As for the Tracklist note, eh, I'm pretty sure this was something like, Carl was trying to gingerly get Brian to finish. Maybe he convinced Brian to just let him do it, so he went to the tape vault and wrote down a bunch of titles. I don't think Carl had a lot of knowledge of SMiLE, but it does sound like he sat in on sessions when he was around, so he probably knew enough to pick out the 12 songs he thought most important. Like he knew that Heroes was a big deal, and Surf's Up, and he had to put GV on there, but when it came to Holidays or Child is the Father? Maybe he was less sure. I don't think it means anything, it's not a reliable indicator of anything. it just marks a really bad event in the SMiLE timeline, when the backcover has a different lineup than the actual album.

I know you didn't ask me but I would find it very hard to believe that Brian didn't have input into that list. Whoever wrote the list, it shows a pretty intimate familiarity with the tracks. The list indicates that Brian was very much involved in its creation. He probably dictated the list, is my thought. See my remarks regarding "Prayer" below.


Barnyard very early on was just a "section" of Heroes and Villains and clearly it was never meant to be anything other than a section within another song. There is also a "specific absence" of Who Ran the Iron Horse? despite sessions devoted to it, but we know damn well why that's the case.

Brian himself indicated in the vocal sessions for "Prayer" that the Prayer was not meant to be a track but an opener - obviously attached to whatever the first track was going to be. The fact that both Brian's own words and the list corroborate each other is, I think, pretty compelling evidence that Brian had a strong part to play in that list, whether it was his handwriting or not.

Sunshine would have been part of Old Master Painter.

I really think it's Carl. Carl was at the Prayer session so he would have remembered that. Also why would Brian's wife be asked for a tracklisting? Was she that involved with Brian's affairs? Was she present at Band meetings and meetings with Capitol? Maybe someone who knows more than me can answer that, but to me it sounds unlikely and I wouldn't have guessed she was that involved. They say the woman makes the man, but it sounds like Diane was kind of lax in her relationship with Brian, otherwise wouldn't we have SMiLE? Of course all that is just my interpretation of the situation.
Carl on the otherhand? It sounds like he was more up on the project than anyone, he's always been it's strongest supporter. It seems far more likely that he would have been asked for a tracklisting. I imagine Brian didn't have any input other than just telling Carl that if he wanted to give something to Capitol he could.

Marilyn was Brian's wife at the time, not Diane.

Diane did a lot of office work for the Beach Boys, filling out session time sheets, etc. It's not a complete stretch to imagine that she might have wrote down that list based on something Brian told her.

The list does seem to be fairly substantial in correctly identifying the tracks we know Brian was working most intently on around December, 1966. The parentheses around "The Old Master Painter" suggests that the person writing the list wasn't certain that track was going to be included (or maybe it would be under a different title); the fact that the parentheses were scratched out suggests that the writer of the list got confirmation that a track under that title would be included.

All good points but a lot of this discussion (yours and mine got lost in translation)

I am going to stick with what I said - we are in danger of over complicating simply because we don't know - the truth may be a lot simpler than many of us believe

Its been fun - I've been waiting for a discussion like this

Happy to have a pint on it with you

My Elements - MOC, VT, WC, ILTSD

Yours???

 :thud

The purchase order for the booklets was requested December 8th, and issued by 12/19: working backwards, I'd say the artwork had to have been handed in by early October at the latest.

Excuse me ? All done with percussion instruments ? I think the credibility of someone's recollection just took a big hit.  ;)

Diane did much more than "office work" - she was the contractor for just about every Smile session we have documentation for.

Apart from the Diane/Marilyn thing, I don't think the list gives us any inidication who was "asked for a tracklisting". To be honest, I highly doubt Capitol would have asked Carl. Maybe if it was 1970. But it wasn't. Aside from the stage show, Carl was hardly the kind of leader-figure at this point that he became a few years later. In 1966, Carl was a 20-year old Wilson brother who only even only just started getting lead vocal parts. If anything, the person who would have been asked ultimately, would have been Brian. If Brian didn't write the list, then whoever did (maybe Carl, maybe Diane, maybe someone else) had some tremendous insights into Brian's plans for the album - so much so, that I would ultimately be very surprised that Brian didn't dictate or, at the very least, approve of the list.

Furthermore, Brian had some pretty solid ideas about the album at a certain point. The fact that he knew that Our Prayer wouldn't be a track but would instead just be an intro shows that he had a notion about how certain things, at least, would be structured. And more over, he freely would share that information with others. Now, I think at a certain point, his idea about the album became less firm and it probably would be something different every day. But I think there were times when he had a pretty clear picture about the album and I think, if anything, early to mid-December 1966, was right in that wheelhouse.

And again, I'm confused why you think that saying that "Air" and "Earth" were never recorded is more complicated than saying that Air is Wind Chimes and Earth is Vegetables? Does the former really require that much untangling?

Like you say, "the truth may be" that WC is Air and V is Earth, but there is certainly little evidence to support that at the moment.


Deal!


Well, I don't really have one. If I were to compile Smile - the last time I tried was around 2001 and I haven't listened to it in probably eight years - I would either not have a track called The Elements or The Elements would just be MOC and the Water Chant, and maybe I Wanna Be Around to close things up, not that it would really represent one of the Elements. It's just that it was recorded the day after Fire, Carol Kaye has stressed a connection, and it just reminds me of a scene from the movie Pleasantville where they put out a fire.

That bit rang a bell - took me a while, but I found it: Teen Set 1966

"It is a balmy afternoon in Hollywood.

Brian Wilson comes into Studio 3 at Western Recorders for an overdubbing session.

In the booth his personal eight-track tape machine is ready to roll (bit of artistic license here  :)).

In the studio an old, upright honky-tonk piano and Brian's beautiful black grand piano wait under the microphones (again, nonsense).

"I have an idea, I'm not sure exactly how this is going to work, but we'll try it."

Brian goes to his piano and signals Chuck, the engineer to roll the tape.  He plays a simple music box melody.  The tape is run back.  On a second track he adds some tinkles on the honky-tonk piano.

For about half an hour Wilson goes over the same piece, filling the eight tracks with counterpoints, syncopated gates and notions.

"OK, let's hear it."

Wilson in the control room close to the centre speaker, listens to the playback.  He rushes to the board and supervises the throwing of switches and turning of knobs.  More echo on the third track, a touch of reverb on the second honky-tonk overdub, this track dry and the other with more highs.  Something happens to the sounds; they change, they move around and are transformed into a work of sheer beauty.

Everyone in the booth has seen and heard the entire process."

Sounds awfully like the "Bicycle Rider" theme to me.

Sounds like the tag to the Smile Wind Chimes to me.

Just working out the rough dating... looks like late October/early November-ish.

"Office work" was really the wrong term to use and, looking back on it now, it sounds really sexist! I was indeed trying to relate how important Diane was to the business side of the SMiLE sessions.

I remember reading somewhere that the Bicycle Rider theme was imagined as a Bicycle flying through the air from east to west.

In my Smile mix I have stuck IWBA/FN on the end of MOC - it sounds good - but then again I've stuck IIGS/BY/YAMS/OMP all within an H&V mix.

We sure are gonna have fun when the box set hits -  I think VDP said in an article he'd seen it and it looks beautiful

Bells & Whistles version? Lots more off-the-wall instrumentation in there, which might be regarded as percussive even if much of it weren't…