Classic Rock Outtakes Industry:where do we go from here?

[hypehat]

As were the press and most of the teen-mag reading world. Articles were written detailing Brian in the studio with session musicians, how he wasn't using the boys on his records, and the Dennis quote you mention also features the interviewer asking whether they can get the sound of GV without all the extraneous musicians, and so on. It was hardly a big secret!

[PhilCohen]

Al said "Sometime this summer", but Capitol has yet to say that officially.  The Grammy awards have never been taken seriously by Rock musicians or fans. Here's why: after awarding The Beatles a "best new artist" award in 1964, NARAS didn't award a Grammy to a self containing(singing/playing/writing) rock group again, until 1976, when they gave some awards to The Doobie Brothers. As a result, they glaringly ignored some of rock's greatest works. Some voting members(session musicians and tin-pan alley songwriters) felt that their livelihoods were being threatened by groups that  followed The Beatles' example and didn't need to use outside writers or backing musicians unless they chose to, while some have surmised that some voting members didn't want them long-haired hippie types being the industry's ambassadors to the public.
                              
Here's some examples of Grammy's questionable judgement: Elvis Presley & Bob Dylan received their only Grammys for their religious music, and, in one competition between "Emerson Lake & Palmer", Chase(a Jazz-Rock horn band) &  "Hamilton,Joe Frank & Reynolds", the award went to (you guessed it), Hamilton,Joe Frank and Reynolds.......presumably because they were a vocal group(I.E. they weren't a self-contained band and had to employ sessionmen).

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

None of that applies to the category The Smile Sessions qualifies for: Best Historical Album. According to a voting member of the NARAS I've been talking to, that's a very prestigious category.  Hopefully there's no New Vaudeville Band 1966 Sessions box out before 10/1/11.

Anyhoo... you carry on playing a combination of Doubting Thomas and Victor Meldrew, and I'll carry on waiting for a release I never really thought I would see.  

PS: if this be so - "NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people" - care to explain why "Good Vibrations" & Pet Sounds didn't win multiple Grammys ?

Because, The Beach Boys(or Brian specifically) were Choosing to use sessionmen. With much longer, more frustrating & difficult sessions, Brian could have made the records with The Beach Boys playing. Like many producers in that era, who opted to use sessionmen instead of group members on backing tracks, it was because the sessionmen could cut the tracks more quickly, and being trained musicians, they could take instructions from a producer more easily. That was how Mark Lindsay explained the use of sessionmen on Paul Revere & The Raiders records starting in late 1966, through 1967 & 1968. The Beach Boys were, on stage(in the mid-1960's) a self-contained band, of the type which some NARAS members despised.

Phil, I don't need the spurious lecture about why Brian used session players - I've been up to speed on the why, when, who and where of that for a couple of decades: my point, which you've entirely avoided, is that you claim the NARAS folk favoured a "type of group who gave lots of work to session people", as Brian did on "GV " and Pet Sounds - ergo, if your claim has any validity, both those records should have won Grammys. So... why didn't they ? The voting members of the NARAS were well aware of what happened in the studio.

...but The Beach Boys(mostly) recorded original material. Groups like The Fifth Dimenson didn't, and they provided work for (mostly) non-performing writers. Yes, you'll note that Jimmy Webb & Laura Nyro(who wrote songs for The Fifth Dimension) were also performers....but not commercially successful. Their primary income was in writing for others. NARAS favored non-playing, non-writing vocal groups. The Beach Boys had two writers in house, composer Brian Wilson & lyricist Mike Love, and The Beach Boys occasionally played instruments in the studio(though rarely on "Pet Sounds" & "Smile")

[Andrew G. Doe]

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

Or is it...

NARAS favored non-playing, non-writing vocal groups.

Phil... work out what you're trying to say, construct an argument that's both logical and not self-contradictory, and doesn't require further qualification every time I pick a hole in it, then get back to us.

I'm not denying the NARAS have made some outstandingly dumbass awards in the past, but according to your basic tenet, you use session musicians in the mid/late 60s, cool, have a Grammy. And yes, I'm oversimplifying  for effect (and the yucks), but that's essentially what you said originally.

Oh, and this ?

..but The Beach Boys(mostly) recorded original material. Groups like The Fifth Dimenson didn't

First album - five Jimmy Webb originals.

Second album - aside from one Beatles cover left over from the first album sessions, entirely Webb originals (11).

[PhilCohen]

Andrew, the proof is in the pudding: the choices for Grammy Awards 1965-1975 made NARAS' anti-rock views obvious. The greatest rock music of those years was repeatedly snubbed by NARAS, making The Grammys a total joke to people whose childhood or teenage years were during that era......such as myself.

[PhilCohen]

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

Or is it...

NARAS favored non-playing, non-writing vocal groups.

Phil... work out what you're trying to say, construct an argument that's both logical and not self-contradictory, and doesn't require further qualification every time I pick a hole in it, then get back to us.

I'm not denying the NARAS have made some outstandingly dumbass awards in the past, but according to your basic tenet, you use session musicians in the mid/late 60s, cool, have a Grammy.

...and don't write any songs of your own(but rather use old-school office-based songwriters), and yeah, in that era, COOL: have a Grammy. That's exactly what I'm saying.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Andrew, the proof is in the pudding: the choices for Grammy Awards 1965-1975 made NARAS' anti-rock views obvious. The greatest rock music of those years was repeatedly snubbed by NARAS, making The Grammys a total joke to people whose childhood or teenage years were during that era......such as myself.

No argument there... but I'm talking about the Grammys now, not 35 years ago. Aside from a communal brain fart by the NARAS voting members next spring, I cannot foresee any scenario in which The Smile Sessions doesn't win Best Historical Album (assuming it gets released before 10/1/11, and I have every confidence it will be).

[PhilCohen]

Andrew, the proof is in the pudding: the choices for Grammy Awards 1965-1975 made NARAS' anti-rock views obvious. The greatest rock music of those years was repeatedly snubbed by NARAS, making The Grammys a total joke to people whose childhood or teenage years were during that era......such as myself.

No argument there... but I'm talking about the Grammys now, not 35 years ago. Aside from a communal brain fart by the NARAS voting members next spring, I cannot foresee any scenario in which The Smile Sessions doesn't win Best Historical Album (assuming it gets released before 10/1/11, and I have every confidence it will be).

Yes, The Grammys have changed a little bit in the past 3 decades; they started a "Heavy Metal" award.....then gave the first "Best Heavy Metal Group" award........to Jethro Tull.(not exactly heavy metal). If I were a musician, I would consider the greatest and most relevant award to be hit records, sold out concerts and audience loyalty.

[rogerlancelot]

The original unaltered version is actually one of the highlights of the Get Back sessions.

This really isn't saying much about "Mailman", as I think The Beatles tear into this song with all the enthusiasm and energy of waking up with a hangover and realizing you have to be at work in an hour.

I never understood the appeal of the "Get Back" stuff. I enjoy listening as a fan, but it sounds so dreary, especially the time they spent at Twickenham, where they sound cold and tired most of the time. The highlights are there but are few and far-between. Just personal preference.

I think it's just a case of too much of one thing.  Back when "Sweet Apple Trax" came out in the seventies, many collectors wore the grooves out of those records.  They were a revelation at the time as bootleggers coincidentally (or wisely?) chose one of the more enjoyable sessions musically (1-9-69) to canonize.  However as time wore on and more and more material began to get pressed to wax we all came to realize how dreary these sessions were.  So by the time some thought was put into the process as far as organizing and releasing this material in both chronological order and high sound quality most of us were already sick of it.

To me the best way to listen to the "Get Back" sessions is to get yourself a copy of Sulpy's DDSI and the "A/B Road" set and when something that Doug mentions interests you, cue up the track and hear for yourself what he is writing about.  For me the best part of having all the "Get Back" sessions at my fingertips after all these years was being able to go back and hear first hand some of the conversations between The Beatles which were detailed in DDSI but for time constraint reasons were left unbooted for many years.

Forget Sulpy's book (rubbish!). But don't forget the notes by a certain rogerlancelot.....  Unlike Sulpy, I HAVE listened to the whole damn thing (more than once).

[PhilCohen]

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

Or is it...

NARAS favored non-playing, non-writing vocal groups.

Phil... work out what you're trying to say, construct an argument that's both logical and not self-contradictory, and doesn't require further qualification every time I pick a hole in it, then get back to us.

I'm not denying the NARAS have made some outstandingly dumbass awards in the past, but according to your basic tenet, you use session musicians in the mid/late 60s, cool, have a Grammy. And yes, I'm oversimplifying  for effect (and the yucks), but that's essentially what you said originally.

Oh, and this ?

..but The Beach Boys(mostly) recorded original material. Groups like The Fifth Dimenson didn't

First album - five Jimmy Webb originals.

Second album - aside from one Beatles cover left over from the first album sessions, entirely Webb originals (11).

By "Original" I mean written by a member of the group. Webb wasn't a member of The Fifth Dimension.

[Andrew G. Doe]

NARAS felt most comfortable with a Fifth Dimension, Simon & Garfunkel, Mamas & The Papas type of group who gave lots of work to session people. Each group had only one instrument player or writer in-house, or in the Fifth Dimension's case no players or writers in house.

Or is it...

NARAS favored non-playing, non-writing vocal groups.

Phil... work out what you're trying to say, construct an argument that's both logical and not self-contradictory, and doesn't require further qualification every time I pick a hole in it, then get back to us.

I'm not denying the NARAS have made some outstandingly dumbass awards in the past, but according to your basic tenet, you use session musicians in the mid/late 60s, cool, have a Grammy. And yes, I'm oversimplifying  for effect (and the yucks), but that's essentially what you said originally.

Oh, and this ?

..but The Beach Boys(mostly) recorded original material. Groups like The Fifth Dimenson didn't

First album - five Jimmy Webb originals.

Second album - aside from one Beatles cover left over from the first album sessions, entirely Webb originals (11).

By "Original" I mean written by a member of the group. Webb wasn't a member of The Fifth Dimension.

I think you'll find that when talking about a band/artist doing 'original' material, the overwhelming majority of folk mean "not cover versions of existing songs", i.e "Sloop John B" or "Misty Roses".

[vintagemusic]

I Think Simon and Garfunkel won a number of Grammy's and Simon
wrote all their tunes.

Maybe who won had more to do with which record companies did the best political wrangling.
Perhaps the voting members tended to be older and square and generally thought
the records they picked to win were best.

I remember blanching in a meeting in the late eighties, when a senior record company
executive associated with MCA, told me things like Elvis were good and wholesome
but most of the rest was just fringe music that would come and go. He was probably
a voting member of NARAS at one time.

I don't know if anyone can ever explain the picks the Grammy committee's made over
the years, in retrospect they seem even more awful than they did at the time.

I'm sure Capitol and the Beach Boys would still like to win one for SMiLE however.


Perhaps the future of Classic Rock Outtakes lies in something new like, selling
multitasks so people can mix their own. Or some new physical format to replace
the CD. Or perhaps going to more recent bands from the eighties or nineties
and hyping their outtakes the way sixties and seventies bands have been hyped
up until now. Maybe there are second tier bands from the sixties, that haven't had
their catalogues plundered for outtakes yet. Maybe when the major bands are depleted
in the archives, maybe some of these second tier bands will become bigger than
they ever were in the sixties and seventies until the hunger from us older fans
dies off, as we begin to die off. I cant wait to see what happens next!

[Jason]

How do you sell multitasks?

[PhilCohen]

I Think Simon and Garfunkel won a number of Grammy's and Simon
wrote all their tunes.

Maybe who won had more to do with which record companies did the best political wrangling.
Perhaps the voting members tended to be older and square and generally thought
the records they picked to win were best.

I remember blanching in a meeting in the late eighties, when a senior record company
executive associated with MCA, told me things like Elvis were good and wholesome
but most of the rest was just fringe music that would come and go. He was probably
a voting member of NARAS at one time.

I don't know if anyone can ever explain the picks the Grammy committee's made over
the years, in retrospect they seem even more awful than they did at the time.

I'm sure Capitol and the Beach Boys would still like to win one for SMiLE however.


Perhaps the future of Classic Rock Outtakes lies in something new like, selling
multitasks so people can mix their own. Or some new physical format to replace
the CD. Or perhaps going to more recent bands from the eighties or nineties
and hyping their outtakes the way sixties and seventies bands have been hyped
up until now. Maybe there are second tier bands from the sixties, that haven't had
their catalogues plundered for outtakes yet. Maybe when the major bands are depleted
in the archives, maybe some of these second tier bands will become bigger than
they ever were in the sixties and seventies until the hunger from us older fans
dies off, as we begin to die off. I cant wait to see what happens next!

Over the years, as studio technology changed, going to 24 & 48 tracks, and, in particular, after the changeover to digital tape, and then to hard drive-based recording systems, it became more commonplace for recordings to be built up one instrument at a time(or perhaps even be computer-programmed using digital samples of drum sounds), and not have their basis in a basic live-in-the-studio take with a group of musicians playing together. I would say that for artists from the late 80's onward, there may be alternate mixes(with some different vocal or instrumental elements), but(generally) no entirely alternate takes as there were in the 4-track, 8-track & 16-track analogue tape era. I doubt that an artist(if you could call her that) like Madonna has any alternate takes, though she may have truckloads of alternate mixes.

[PhilCohen]

O.K.: let's assume that Alan Boyd, Mark Linett & The Beach Boys are seeking a Grammy for "The Smile Sessions". There will be some serious competition from "Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc "Immersion" box set. The "Smile" box will have to be incredible to win a Grammy.

[vintagemusic]

How do you sell multitasks?

LOL

MULTI TRACKS... I had trouble getting the thing to correct the spelling.

As far as Pink Floyd competing against The Beach Boys for the Historical grammy

The American group has the edge with the voting members of the academy I would
think.. and there could be two different categories, SMiLE was never released and the
FLoyd albums were, they are just being re-released



I would think, technically SMiLE is eligible for plain old rock or pop album of the year
as it's a new release, when it was recorded is sort of irrelevant, technically is that not so?

[John Manning]

O.K.: let's assume that Alan Boyd, Mark Linett & The Beach Boys are seeking a Grammy for "The Smile Sessions". There will be some serious competition from "Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc "Immersion" box set. The "Smile" box will have to be incredible to win a Grammy.

Serious competition indeed, and given the scale of the Floyd's reissue programme, not just from Dark Side of the Moon.

However, as Gilmour attended one of the 2002 RFH Pet Sounds gigs (he was in the row behind me), perhaps he'll generously stand aside by delaying the reissue's 'til 2012.

[Andrew G. Doe]

O.K.: let's assume that Alan Boyd, Mark Linett & The Beach Boys are seeking a Grammy for "The Smile Sessions". There will be some serious competition from "Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc "Immersion" box set. The "Smile" box will have to be incredible to win a Grammy.

Fair point... but Smile has one huge ace up the sleeve: it was never released. This is the... what, fourth, fifth reissue of DSOTM ?. Even Floyd fans, on hearing the news of the latest reissue series, are going "again ?". The Smile project is truly historic.

[PhilCohen]

O.K.: let's assume that Alan Boyd, Mark Linett & The Beach Boys are seeking a Grammy for "The Smile Sessions". There will be some serious competition from "Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc "Immersion" box set. The "Smile" box will have to be incredible to win a Grammy.

Serious competition indeed, and given the scale of the Floyd's reissue programme, not just from Dark Side of the Moon.

However, as Gilmour attended one of the 2002 RFH Pet Sounds gigs (he was in the row behind me), perhaps he'll generously stand aside by delaying the reissue's 'til 2012.

Not likely. Unlike The Beach Boys' "Smile" box, Pink Floyd has revealed the tracklistings(and photos of the finished products) for the first three "Immersion box sets("The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc, "Wish You Were Here" 6-disc & "The Wall" 7-disc), and there will be further large box sets in 2012. Drummer Nick Mason has admitted that it will be a "race against time" to get their complete series of box sets released while the record companies are still releasing physical product.
On the other hand, the "Smile Sessions" box is in such an uncertain, unfinalized state that EMI isn't able to reveal a tracklisting.

[PhilCohen]

O.K.: let's assume that Alan Boyd, Mark Linett & The Beach Boys are seeking a Grammy for "The Smile Sessions". There will be some serious competition from "Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc "Immersion" box set. The "Smile" box will have to be incredible to win a Grammy.

Fair point... but Smile has one huge ace up the sleeve: it was never released. This is the... what, fourth, fifth reissue of DSOTM ?. Even Floyd fans, on hearing the news of the latest reissue series, are going "again ?". The Smile project is truly historic.

Yes, but this reissue(the 6-disc box set) of "The Dark Side of The Moon" has something that no previous reissue did: unreleased live & studio material.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Well, people, there you have it - obviously Phil doesn't want The Smile Sessions released, and even if they are (and imagine his pain !), he sure as hell doesn't want them to win the 2012 Grammy for Best Historical Album. 

[John Manning]

Well, people, there you have it - obviously Phil doesn't want The Smile Sessions released, and even if they are (and imagine his pain !), he sure as hell doesn't want them to win the 2012 Grammy for Best Historical Album. 

Phil's gotta valid point. The SMiLE set has always appeared to be a wonderful package but the newly announced Floyd sets do appear to exceptionally well-hung, as it were. SMiLE has the historical edge for sure, but the Grammy judges might well be blinded by the sheer quantity associated with the Floyd set.

Let's hope SMiLE's freshness, the luxuriance of the box set and the dedication of Mark and Alan wins the recognition it deserves.  Quality vs quantity perhaps!

[PhilCohen]

Well, people, there you have it - obviously Phil doesn't want The Smile Sessions released, and even if they are (and imagine his pain !), he sure as hell doesn't want them to win the 2012 Grammy for Best Historical Album. 

I DO want "The Smile Sessions" to be released, but the Pink Floyd sets have now been compiled, the tracklistings for 2 of the 3 Floyd "Immersion" box sets have been revealed, and they are certain to be released, while an air of uncertainty hangs over the "Smile" box. Based on what we know at this point, The Pink Floyd "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc box set will be difficult to beat in a contest over "Best Historical Release". If the "Smile" box will be equally impressive, I say "Show us what you've got!". The Pink Floyd projects are well into the mastering and manufacturing stages, while The Beach Boys "Smile Sessions" box still looks like what the computer industry calls "Vaporware"; advertised, but non-existent product.

[guitarfool2002]

Artists rework, re-record, and demo songs all the time. To say there is some kind of a shortage of that kind of material in general is a little too broad.

Many bands today have setups where any band member can work up a demo on their Mac laptop either at home or on the road, and some have full blown studios where they can either get the ideas together or start tracking the actual parts of a song. Shades of Tom Scholz with Boston, Pete Townshend...heck, the entire "Lifehouse" set was Townshend doing that very same thing, and those "demos" which are closer to all-out takes before the other band members got to them, are fascinating and very enjoyable listening.

This goes back several pages: I'm confused as to why there is an issue with the semantics throughout this discussion between alternate takes, alternate mixes, etc. No matter what the technology may develop into, there will always be different mixes and different versions of songs in an artist's archives. And demos of those songs will exist too - that never changes. Fans will always want to hear that stuff, some more than others. It will be a chance to hear a familiar song in a different way, and to me that is a neat opportunity.

But I see no signs of that drying up. Again maybe I'm just not clear on the semantics being debated.

[vintagemusic]

I don't understand how, a Pink Floyd re-issue program, where they are releasing the same
albums for the fourth, fifth or sixth time, can be in the same category with an album that is
being released for the first time. That is SMiLE by the Beach Boys. SMiLE has never been issued.
Some various versions of some of the songs appeared on several different albums and singles.
But the SMiLE recordings have for the most part not been issued. How can this be the same category
as old Pink Floyd albums that have already been through the Grammy process in years past.


As to re-issues going on endlessly. I think the majority of the seminal bands and artists. Beatles
Dylan, The Who, Beach Boys, Kinks, CSNY, Pink Floyd, Byrds etc etc. I think at this late date
most of those previously unreleased songs and alternate takes and mixes, have already
been issued and are available.

So I think it is fair to say what else can they do? The people who care most about these bands
are generally perhaps 40-70 years of age, as we die off, what purpose does it serve to issue
the albums yet again?

Floyd is a special case in that they were so succesful, and they are such a visual band with so much
fancy conert footage they can assemble along with the albums.

I can see a few more seminal bands with archival material yet to be released, but after that, then what?

sell the multitracks so geeks can mix their own versions. The new Cedar software used on the Beatle
rockband game, showed you can take old sixties recordings with everything locked together on one track
and seperate it, so you could then sell Pet Sounds or Sgt Pepper for 89 bucks on multitrack!


What about using computer technology to create new songs as the new Tron Movie made Jeff Bridges
appear 30 years old in certain scenes in the film when he was actually sixty.

I don't know if technology can do that yet, create virtual new beach boy or beatle songs, But I bet they will
be able to do that within a decade

[bgas]

O.K.: let's assume that Alan Boyd, Mark Linett & The Beach Boys are seeking a Grammy for "The Smile Sessions". There will be some serious competition from "Pink Floyd's "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc "Immersion" box set. The "Smile" box will have to be incredible to win a Grammy.

Fair point... but Smile has one huge ace up the sleeve: it was never released. This is the... what, fourth, fifth reissue of DSOTM ?. Even Floyd fans, on hearing the news of the latest reissue series, are going "again ?". The Smile project is truly historic.

Yes, but this reissue(the 6-disc box set) of "The Dark Side of The Moon" has something that no previous reissue did: unreleased live & studio material.

In this case are these alternate versions of released songs,official releases of booted live songs(presumably in better quality) or songs that have never been released at all?
Simply for myself, I don't care, unless they are never released songs.

Well, people, there you have it - obviously Phil doesn't want The Smile Sessions released, and even if they are (and imagine his pain !), he sure as hell doesn't want them to win the 2012 Grammy for Best Historical Album. 

I DO want "The Smile Sessions" to be released, but the Pink Floyd sets have now been compiled, the tracklistings for 2 of the 3 Floyd "Immersion" box sets have been revealed, and they are certain to be released, while an air of uncertainty hangs over the "Smile" box. Based on what we know at this point, The Pink Floyd "The Dark Side of The Moon" 6-disc box set will be difficult to beat in a contest over "Best Historical Release". If the "Smile" box will be equally impressive, I say "Show us what you've got!". The Pink Floyd projects are well into the mastering and manufacturing stages, while The Beach Boys "Smile Sessions" box still looks like what the computer industry calls "Vaporware"; advertised, but non-existent product.

I fall on the side of a definite release. Their( Capitol/EMI) plan was upset by Al's announcement, so a quickie statement was released, but this isn't a "vaporware" release. Capitol/EMI is simply playing it close to the vest, until Alan and Mark get all their ducks in a row; then they'll announce the details/ tracklists.  If it was a non-existent product, there's no way they would have announced the different versions