SMiLE Sessions box set!

[Mike's Beard]

Guess he's dumb.

[UK_Surf]

My only complaints are with Disc 1. I still don't understand that if they stuck that closely with BWPS, then why did they change Look and Child...? Movement 2 of BWPS is the most satisfying piece of music that I have ever heard. The 4 songs just fit together seamlessly. Has Mark or Alan ever explained why this was done?

Of course, they did take some liberties with the BWPS format, most notably with the 'Barnyard Suite' (to good effect, IMO--so glad they got Barnshine back in there!).  Vega-Tables was also significantly different from BWPS and all the better for it.  I don't think there was any way that they were going to be able to replicate the beauty and flow of the second movement of BWPS, given how unfinished Look and Child remain from the original sessions.  Interestingly, that was my favorite part of BWPS and my least favorite piece of the approximation, while the third movement was my least favorite before and now I like it best on disc 1.

Yes, very well observed. And there's a good reason for the differences, apart from the obvious (newly written material etc). BWPS was designed for live performance, which is one of the reasons why the project happened - it allows for a more fluid working environment, where performance-driven demands can actually wick pressure from more sensitive issues, like historical veracity, original (i.e. 66-7 era decision making), and other non-recoverable issues.

Equally, some BWPS revelations were contextualised by new material (new WC bridge), and the new Veggies piece provided a stellar remixing opportunity.

There were some blind spots in some of the historicist decision-making, tho. Why do we get the 71 SU tag & CW vocal fly-ins, but not the 20/20 Prayer overdubs (which were overdubbed sooner)? I know loads of people prefer the earlier Prayer mix, but the end result is discarding historic enhancements in one case, and not in another, based on what seems to be subjective judgement (which will always be a component of any art work).

 I also prefer the 20/20 stereo CE mix. Actually, I wonder what an 'all 20/20' Smile mix would sound like? Stereo mixes in the style of the released Smile 20/20 material? Fabulous, I'm willing to bet...chalk that one up to the endless 'what if' scenarios!
 

[Paulos]

Mikie, the only complaints I would have with TSS is that ending of Wonderful should probably have been faded out rather than just stumbling to an end and the H&V stereo remix which to me just sounds weak and lifeless. Other than that, I love it.

[Tristero]

Just to say a bit more about the sessions discs. I don't think enough has been said about just how incredible it is to hear everything in a basically-linear, song-by-song survey of almost every key session you'd want to have, all in (generally) excellent audio quality.  It's brought a level of cohesion to the Smile experience that I never thought even remotely possible.

I wasn’t sure how much I would enjoy all of the raw session material on TSS initially, but I was quite pleased with how they presented it.  There was just the right amount of studio chatter to help tell the story of how the music developed, but not so much as to be plodding.  I really enjoy hearing how Brian interacted with the musicians back then—and the extraordinary results that followed from his enthusiastic coaxing.

On the other hand, I’m not sure if they did the best job with disc 2 on the two disc set, aimed more at the masses.  For the most part, I think only hardcore SMiLE enthusiasts are interested in that kind of raw work in progress presentation and I’m not sure how much the casual listener would get into that.  If it were up to me, I would have made disc two more like a natural, stripped down version of SMiLE, with most of the key alternate versions and instrumental backing tracks, without the studio chatter and false starts.  Such a presentation likely would have been more accessible to John Q. Public but it also would have appealed to longtime devotees who may have had problems with the BWPS template and fly-ins on disc 1. 

I don’t mean to second guess the producers too much—I’m sure they must have been under extraordinary pressure all around and lord knows, there were countless different ways that they could have presented this—but that’s how I would have handled it in an ideal world.

[Billgoodman]

I second that, and I'm planning to make my own 'disc 2' with alt. versions just like the last disc of the Pet Sounds Box.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

I have to point out a tendency of yours at this point Andrew. When you explain other people's thought processes & actions you tend to side with the simple. You default to the dumb.

I could make the same claim about you since you are suggesting that Brian is creatively bankrupt since he does nothing with Smile but prove someone else's philosophy, according to you. Hardly brilliant work, if that's what he's doing. Fortunately, no evidence points to it.

[Tristero]

Everything I listed in the list you are trying to discount via this argument has to do with the spiritual experience. It can all be related to the spiritual experience. The only claim to SMiLE that Brian ever made back in the day was that it was spiritual...that was the entire focus of the direction.

Given the length and breadth of your list, it appears that one could argue that anything related to spirituality in some way if one were inclined to look at it that way.  I don't deny that, broadly speaking, this spiritual impulse was at the heart of Brian's inspiration for SMiLE, but I don't think that every creative decision he made for the project automatically goes back that.  This was well before 'concept albums' were commonplace in rock--not everything needs to have a deep thematic explanation or a hidden meaning.

[guitarfool2002]

There is a similarity with this discussion of Smile and spirituality and the brief discussion in another thread here about the George Harrison documentary that was shown this year. I think with Harrison, that documentary in particular had focused primarily on George's spirituality, and as a result may use that as the plug-in explanation behind some of the history when there may be other answers and reasons that have more to do with George's personality and ego than his quest for spirituality. It depends on whose history you read, and which angle you're coming from when telling or reading the story. And it can also be read as "a little bit of everything" contributed to that history, just like the Smile saga. My early impression was that the Harrison documentary may have leaned too heavily on one part of a multifaceted story at times in order to give the audience a focus point when telling them the story.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

it appears that one could argue that anything related to spirituality in some way if one were inclined to look at it that way. 

If you're suggesting that fire hats could have a meaning that isn't related to spirituality then I just don't know what planet you're on.

 

[Mikie]

Mikie, the only complaints I would have with TSS is that ending of Wonderful should probably have been faded out rather than just stumbling to an end and the H&V stereo remix which to me just sounds weak and lifeless. Other than that, I love it.

Agree on Wonderful. It ends too abrubtly I think. Maybe it's because I'm use to hearing it fade, but I think there needed to be some kinda conclusion there. The ending is different, but way too abrubt for my taste.

Heroes & Villains. I love the stereo version. There were no real surprises on this one for me - I think another fan mix could be better, to tell you the truth. The mix isn't the all-time best here. Heroes & Villains Pt. 1 and Pt. 2 works for me, but just keep it stereo, baby! Beats the hell out of the released muddled mono version. Everything's clear as a bell.

[Roger Ryan]

...Why do we get the 71 SU tag & CW vocal fly-ins, but not the 20/20 Prayer overdubs (which were overdubbed sooner)? I know loads of people prefer the earlier Prayer mix, but the end result is discarding historic enhancements in one case, and not in another, based on what seems to be subjective judgement (which will always be a component of any art work).

I feel pretty confident that the "Our Prayer" overdubs were primarily recorded so the track could be issued in stereo on 20/20. Brian's completed '66 version can only be heard in mono. Folding the stereo 20/20 version down to mono probably wouldn't sound that great, so the genuine mono '66 version would be the better choice for the all-mono album assembly. The same thinking resulted in just one channel being used of Carl's "Cabin Essence" lead vocal, so the track would better represent a true mono mix of the song in place of the quasi-stereo approach taken on 20/20 (I say "quasi" because the vocals are in stereo whereas the backing track is strictly mono).

[UK_Surf]

That's a really good point about the technical limitations Roger, thanks for that. It's a shame that the 20/20 versions weren't included on TSS, but then, I guess they would be pretty far down the list against some pretty rigorous competition (BY with backing vox, etc.).

[hypehat]

What on earth would be the point of including the 20/20 versions? YOU OWN THEM.

[Bill Tobelman]

Rock And Roll said:

I could make the same claim about you since you are suggesting that Brian is creatively bankrupt since he does nothing with Smile but prove someone else's philosophy, according to you. Hardly brilliant work, if that's what he's doing. Fortunately, no evidence points to it.

This is not accurate. Brian had a flashback interpreted as a riddle. That experience is completely original to Brian. Brian had a wonderful spiritual experience...once again completely his. To combine his original experiences with Van Dyke's America suggestion via Koestler is very original in my book. Plus, to be honest, 'complete originality' is an illusion on the part of a consumer of a piece of art. Creators of art know where their references come from.

Tristero said:

If you're suggesting that fire hats could have a meaning that isn't related to spirituality then I just don't know what planet you're on.

If you compare the "Good Vibrations" film to Brian's 2nd trip description in his bogus bio--there are many similarities. The film honors a religious experience as LSD was thought equatable to the highest level of religious experience (& it includes the hats). Check out period literature from 1963 through 1967.

Anazgnos said:

Is there some universally agreed-upon definition of what a "spiritual experience" is?  When people talk about music in "spiritual" terms, I gather that they tend to be talking more about emotional experiences rather than mystical or esoteric ones.  I'm guessing out of any number of people who'd say they found music "spiritual" you'd find very few who claimed to have actually seen god.

Brian saying the album was supposed to be a "spiritual experience" is like him saying it would contribute to world peace, or something - a nice enough thought, but also toothless and benign.  It's entirely too vague a sentiment from which to derive any kind of ironclad intent.

I agree with you about the broad scope applicable to the term "spiritual experience." You should check out the book Brian requested prior to taking on SMILE in 2004. The book is The Joyous Cosmology by Alan Watts & this should give you insight into what Brian meant by "spiritual experience." Also when Tom Nolan asked about Brian's musical direction Brian said 'spiritual' & elaborated by bringing up his LSD experiences.

[Chocolate Shake Man]

This is not accurate. Brian had a flashback interpreted as a riddle.

You mean, according to his discredited biography or is this mentioned elsewhere? Furthermore, what's your evidence that this is related to the music on Smile aside from your earlier meaningless point that he had the flashback in a bookstore and heroes and villains can be found in books.

That experience is completely original to Brian. Brian had a wonderful spiritual experience...once again completely his.

Unfortunately the fact that the spiritual experience was Brian's really has diddly squat to do with your argument, which is that the album is trying to evoke the kind of spiritual experience as per Koestler, right? I mean, Coleridge's Kubla Khan was written after he had an experience on opium and while that opium experience was completely his own, that doesn't mean the work is.

To combine his original experiences with Van Dyke's America suggestion via Koestler is very original in my book.

Unfortunately, with the bizarre logical leaps you have repeatedly taken, I am not too concerned about what's in your book.

Plus, to be honest, 'complete originality' is an illusion on the part of a consumer of a piece of art. Creators of art know where their references come from.

Well, since I'm not demanding complete originality, then we can put this one to rest. Of course, there is no such thing as complete originality. Maybe you should take a lesson from Koestler and not assume that there are only two possibilities - a completely original work and a work that reinforces someone else's philosophy. I would suggest maybe reading some actual academic articles on great works of art in order to, perhaps, comprehend what the general consensus is on how to evaluate them.

If you compare the "Good Vibrations" film to Brian's 2nd trip description in his bogus bio--there are many similarities. The film honors a religious experience as LSD was thought equatable to the highest level of religious experience (& it includes the hats). Check out period literature from 1963 through 1967.

Shoddy analysis would be too kind a phrase for this. There may be "many similarities" -- I don't know, I haven't read the book -- but under absolutely no circumstance does that mean we can conclude that the Good Vibrations video is directly related to the acid trip, if we want to be taken seriously and if we want to be intellectually honest. In that case, can we say that "The film honors a religious experience"? Absolutely not. This entire conclusion is not only speculative but it is based on a spurious connection for which there is exactly zero evidence (evidence in this case would mean that someone involved in the project would have to have come forward admitting to the connection) other than the two things feel similar to you. This is putting aside the fact that this has nothing to do with fire hats other than the fact that fire hats happen to appear in the video. And then THAT is putting aside the very elementary truism that I was referring to, which is that fire hats simply do not function either in real life or symbolically (conventionally) as a spiritual object.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Bill, here's my theory as to why the fire hats are included in the "GV" promo, and I think it's just as valid as yours, if not actually more compelling. Sit down, it's a good one, it'll blow your socks off.

The movie was shot in a fire station.

Also, as you rightly state, said source (sole source, in fact) for Brian's alleged fire-themed flashback is his "bogus" autobiography. I'd call that a James Watt moment. If you allow that the event almost certainly never happened, then everything else collapses in on itself like a house of cards.

[18thofMay]

Bill, here's my theory as to why the fire hats are included in the "GV" promo, and I think it's just as valid as yours, if not actually more compelling. Sit down, it's a good one, it'll blow your socks off.

The movie was shot in a fire station.

Also, as you rightly state, said source (sole source, in fact) for Brian's alleged fire-themed flashback is his "bogus" autobiography. I'd call that a James Watt moment.

It was shot where?

The most striking feature of the paranoiac's delusional system is its inner consistency, and the patient's uncanny persuasiveness in expounding it

[punkinhead]

My Smile set arrived 2 days ago...can't wait to re-open it for Christmas.


"If you wanna find me, I'll be out in my sandbox, listening to SMiLE SeSSioNS"

[Bill Tobelman]

Rockandroll said:

And then THAT is putting aside the very elementary truism that I was referring to, which is that fire hats simply do not function either in real life or symbolically (conventionally) as a spiritual object.

In the "GV" promo film you can see Brian wearing a fire hat & closing his eyes as if to go off into a dream.

As you may know firsthand--dreams do not conduct themselves in a strict logical fashion. If anything the opposite is true.

There have been many hints that SMiLE is relatable to a dream, a hallucination, something to do with the unconscious & I will be happy to supply you with numerous examples of this.

The fact that one cannot logically make sense of SMiLE is because SMiLE is an unconscious/hallucination/dream. SMiLE is consistent in its dream-like qualities and therefore consistent in its lack of logical qualities.

The dream/trip is mentioned in Brian's "Surf's Up" lyric explanation. "He's off on a trip-creating it like a dream." Eventually Brian's explanation leads to "the joy of enlightenment," and this same pattern was what was intended with SMiLE.
 
The bookstore flashback in Brian's bio explains how this all works. And if you think that anyone other than Brian came up with the bookstore account....I'd say it's Bellvue time for you.I'd love to know who!!!!

[Aegir]

dude, just calm down.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The dream/trip is mentioned in Brian's "Surf's Up" lyric explanation. "He's off on a trip-creating it like a dream." Eventually Brian's explanation leads to "the joy of enlightenment," and this same pattern was what was intended with SMiLE.
 
The bookstore flashback in Brian's bio explains how this all works. And if you think that anyone other than Brian came up with the bookstore account....I'd say it's Bellvue time for you.I'd love to know who!!!!

Like shooting fish in a barrel. OK, firstly that explanation of "Brian's" bears all the hallmarks of him parroting what VDP told him. Now, I can't prove that's the case, any more than you can disprove it, but does that look like the kind of thing BW would say off the cuff back in 1966 ? Nope.

Secondly, setting aside the fact - which you've freely admitted in the past - that "My Own Story" is hugely unreliable and in parts fabricated where it's not plagiarised, there are pictures of Brian in a 'new age' book store that have been doing the rounds since 1966, thus it would be the work of moments for Todd Gold to use said image as the setting for Brian's alleged (and almost certainly imaginary) flashback: again, the language that purports to be Brian's is nothing like any he's ever used, then, previously or since. There is only one source for this alleged incident: a book that is universally regarded with suspicion if not outright disdain.

Bill, you've really got to stop using Brian's discredited pseudobiography as any kind of evidence for your already shaky theories: it's up there alongside using "The Protocols Of Zion" as an argument pro anti-semitism (i.e. using a discredited text to support your personal theory)

[Bill Tobelman]

The thing about that flashback passage is that works. It basically explains SMiLE and helps create an alternate view of all the events from that time.

Your personal integrity may require you to dismiss it altogether and leave SMiLE unexplained. That's fine. You have your high standards.

But what are the odds that there was an album attempted whose goal was to prompt a profound spiritual experience/enlightenment & that the passage (from the album creator's bio) that explains how such a thing could be done are unrelated?

[hypehat]

dude, just calm down.

seriously dude, just CALM DOWN.

Aegir, that's not telling you to calm down - that is hopefully making a mass pile of 'Calm Down' for the dude who really needs to calm down itt.

[Aegir]

But what are the odds that there was an album attempted whose goal was to prompt a profound spiritual experience/enlightenment & that the passage (from the album creator's bio) that explains how such a thing could be done are unrelated?

BECAUSE IT WAS WRITTEN AFTER THE FACT BY SOMEONE FAMILIAR WITH THE ALBUM

[Andrew G. Doe]

The thing about that flashback passage is that works. It basically explains SMiLE and helps create an alternate view of all the events from that time.

In your mind. I think you'll find the vast majority of the rest of us remain unenlightened, primarily because we don't come up with a theory then start looking for evidence to support it: we gather evidence and develop our ideas from it.