Why did the BBs use Al and Bruce as producers?

[gxios]

The problem with the sound of KTSA is the recording set up.  The notes say it was recorded with two synched 24 track machines and everything stereo miked.  That's 47 (with a synch track) or 48 tracks with all the tape hiss that is generated.  I'm sure they used some sort of noise reduction, resulting in the sludgy mess that disappointed me when I first heard it.

[oldsurferdude]

To bring this board back to it's proper dead-seriousness: I was referring to the very dramatic track # 4 on the 20/20 album that was written/produced by Dennis: lead vocal by Mike, with some very scholarly bed-squeaking at the end.

There.

Along with some very animalistic vocals that accompany the noisy springs.

[adamghost]

The problem with the sound of KTSA is the recording set up.  The notes say it was recorded with two synched 24 track machines and everything stereo miked.  That's 47 (with a synch track) or 48 tracks with all the tape hiss that is generated.  I'm sure they used some sort of noise reduction, resulting in the sludgy mess that disappointed me when I first heard it.

Ding ding ding!  We have a winner.  I think you may be right; some kind of overall noise reduction or some such is exactly what it sounds like.

[Sam_BFC]

Would this not apply to any album recorded in this way though?

[Rocker]

The interesting thing imo is, that Bruce said in the TV-special that he wante to underproduce the album, yet heavy noise-reduction would be very heavy produced. I don't know too much about it, but that's what it seems like to me. "Underproducing" to me would be something like "Wild honey"

[Ron]

First it must be said that Beach Boys stoped being musically compatable after Holland. Sure they had always been diverse but they seemed to have a unified sound or goal in mind. After 1972 nobody's music sounded remotely like the others. They grew apart and began to want different things for the band.

One must remember that Dennis  produced the band with no problem before Manson got accused. After that they probably didn't want him in charge as much. Ed has said several times that Dennis had a lot more respect before Manson was arrested. Also you have take in account that the basically healthy Dennis of say 1968-72 was a long gone memory by the time of MIU let alone KTSA. By 1978 even people working with Dennis on his solo albums were beginning to back off. Carli etc.

Carl himself was in no shape to produce the band by 1977 and I think he too lost some respect after his drug period. Maybe had Dennis and Brian gotten healthy with him in 1979 he could have been back in charge but I don't think he would have been a great choice  either. Let's face it after Angel Come Home he lost his edge with the exception of Heaven.

Al did get the vocals to sound pretty good but his style was faux (later seasons of Happy Days) retro. I don't hate MIU myself. I don't love it but it's the only Beach boy album after Holland that I can play without too much cringing.  Well not counting Belles Of Paris. Oh that track is horrid but hey at least it wasn't a ten minute waste of space like HCTN.

Getting Bruce back was the worst decision they could have made at least musically. He led them into a really sappy soft arena. First he tried to graft them onto bad and fading trends, then he went along blindly without a fuss as the Beach Boys totally went to waste.  He was fine from 1965-72 but like Carl I think he developed creatively in a real lightweight direction. Of course even Disney Girls and Deirdre would not hold up like they do without the class the Beach Boys vocal blend brought them, but there he managed to adapt to the Bach Boys instead of making them adapt to him. Funny thing is that Bruce and even worse Beach Boys producer Terry Melcher made some fantastic records in the sixties. Listen to something like My World Fell Down and tell me if Bruce was the sap meister then. Hint he sure as hell wasn't.

So why did Al and Bruce take over in the late seventies? Well the real producers of the band couldn't get it together anymore and somewhat understandably had lost the respect and control of the rest of the band. I'm not saying the Wilson's are bad people, or that I don't feel sincerely sad they went the way they did but would you have liked to work with them circa1978? It was a desperate move in some ways having Al and Bruce take charge but I suppose the idea was to keep it in the family.

This is a great, well thought out, well spoken post.  I agree completely.  My thoughts on this are that I'm a pretty go with the flow guy, so I actually appreciate SOME of the sappy stuff too, but it strikes me that the band became neutered. 

They're not the only band or artist that did this, as a matter of fact almost ALL of them do it.  They just lose their edge, they lose their teeth, they lose their balls.  In a way, the stuff they did through the 60's was pretty damn ballsy, the stuff was EXCITING.  They lost the excitement somewhere along the way.  The problem with those later albums is there's nothing crazy on there.  I would rather listen to "Wipeout" with the Fat Boys than most of that drivel they did in the later years, because at least it was fucking INSANE.  It had Balls, and it had Brian Wilson. 

Most of the bands do this though, they just start to suck after they get 1. Rich, 2. Famous, 3. Married, 4. Educated   . I mean a lot of the reason Brian's early production was so cool was because he didn't KNOW what he could and couldn't do.  That's how he invented greatness.  That's Rock & Roll!  Fake it 'till you Make it.  God Given talent, just raw as hell, their voices were like listening to God, and God was singing about everything from Love to Big Block Engines and girls on the beach.  F'in Amazing. 

Once they got content and like you said, Carl had his issues and Brian had his issues and Dennis had his issues, the band sounded neutered.  "Faux Retro" is the absolute perfect way to describe Al's style.  It's not even real retro like the White Stripes or Paul McCartney would do, it's this half-assed retro.  Horrible.  The only thing missing is the nuts.

I'm serious.  Great post.  I don't blame them, I know the next level for Al was to produce and hell he's even producing still... but I don't know if we'll ever get to the point as fans where we want him to do anymore than stand there and sing "Help Me Rhonda" the perfect way that he does.  He's just not going to be a good producer.

Bruce had Disney Girls and it's a great song, I love it.  You can only do that about 3 times, though.  He did that, he did 'I Write the Songs' or whatever, and he probably had another great one somewhere, and then it's worn out.  He doesn't have the go go juice to produce anything that's going to be great... the testosterone came from the Wilsons; Brian was burnt out, Dennis was burnt out, Carl was burnt out, and Mike was smart enough to know he can't produce sh*t. 

Really though they've got to be commended for doing what they did as long as they did.  Who the hell can consistantly put out good albums for 30 years?  I don't lose any respect for them that some of the later albums sucked, it's amazing that they were great as long as they were.  God bless all of 'em, including Bruce and Al.  Hell at least they TRIED to produce something. 

[MBE]

I'm glad you liked my post. You make a lot of sense with what you say too. Yes most bands lose it along the way but it's sad that the Beach Boys ruined their reputation going the way they went. It's been restored more or less njow, but the Full House era was hard to live through.

[Bill Ed]

I think it can be argued that Al Jardine has been a successful producer, at least in the sense that his "batting average" is relatively good. His version of "Cotton Fields" achieved international success. "Peggy Sue" got considerable airplay on at least one station in my hometown, and "Come Go with Me" charted reasonably well nationally. (Of course Ron Altbach  co-produced both with Al.) These covers may represent rather modest successes, but they came at a time when Beach Boy singles rarely charted.  Also, several Beach Boy albums credit the group as the producer(s), and I wouldn't be surprised if Al had a hand in the production of  recordings  on Sunflower, Surf's Up, and Holland, all albums which seem to meet with some approval on this board.

If I recall correctly, Bruce Johnston had done some production work for Art Garfunkel on his Breakaway album and had done production work with Elton John. Both Art Garfunkel and Elton John were successful recording artists in the 1970's, and both thought Bruce worthy. So why would it be the least bit surprising that the Beach Boys, of which Bruce had been a member, would call him in as a producer? (By the way,  the Beach Boys brought in Johnston to produce LA after Brian lost interest as opposed to Brian's losing interest in the project when Bruce rejoined the group. How could someone screw this one up?)

And finally, I hope that when folks here disparage some of the Beach Boys' work in strident terms that they do possess enough perspective to realize that they are pissing upward, not downward.  But piss away, if you must.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Everyone seems to have overlooked the very obvious reason why Al - and Ron Altbach - produced M. I. U.: he was Johnny-on-the-spot.  Carl was in Fairfield for maybe four, five sessions, Dennis less than that. Mike doesn't do producing and at the time, Brian was beginning his slide back down into the pit again. In other words, no other viable candidates.

[lance]

Thats what I meant when I said Al and Bruce stepped up to the plate and I commend them for it.

[ESQ Editor]

I always felt that Al got a bad reputation for this album. He obviously wasn't "ready" to be a producer, but he did a great job with the hand he was dealt.

Ideally, it would have behooved the group to wait until they were through the L.A. sessions to release a stronger album. This song list/breakdown is strictly for fun.

SIDE 1:
It's A Beautiful Day
She's Got Rhythm
Come Go With Me
Sweet Sunday Kind Of Love
Belles Of Paris
My Diane
Match Point Of Our Love
Winds Of Change


SIDE 2:
Good Timin'
Lady Lynda
Full Sail
Angel Come Home
Love Surrounds Me
Sumahama
Baby Blue
Goin' South

[phirnis]

I actually don't mind the overall sound of the Light Album, in fact I think that Bruce Johnston managed to capture a deeply melancholy (if occasionally sappy) side of the group not heard on too many of their post-Endless Summer records. Now personally I'll always prefer the sometimes sloppy but heartfelt Brian-isms of 15BO and Love You, but I still think of L.A. as one of their most underrated albums, whereas KTSA doesn't work for me at all.

[lance]

Yeah, it took awhile for me, but I think so too. What I think Bruce did well on that album is manage to make very different songwriter-producers almost sound like they made an album together. Shortenin Bread sticks out like sore thumb, but otherwise, its a bunch of pleasant ballads, plus Here Comes the Night.

[adamghost]

I love the Light Album.  It always has been one of my favorite Beach Boys albums.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

Agreed! It's a kick ass Dennis-Carl album with some of Carl's best vocals ever! Sumahama is a lovely Mike showcase, and the whole record just feels good!

[filledeplage]

I always felt that Al got a bad reputation for this album. He obviously wasn't "ready" to be a producer, but he did a great job with the hand he was dealt.

Ideally, it would have behooved the group to wait until they were through the L.A. sessions to release a stronger album. This song list/breakdown is strictly for fun.

SIDE 1:
It's A Beautiful Day
She's Got Rhythm
Come Go With Me
Sweet Sunday Kind Of Love
Belles Of Paris
My Diane
Match Point Of Our Love
Winds Of Change


SIDE 2:
Good Timin'
Lady Lynda
Full Sail
Angel Come Home
Love Surrounds Me
Sumahama
Baby Blue
Goin' South

ESQ - Recently, as a result of loading what had been LP's originally then double CD's, and now ipod, I have started to listen to MIU/Light Album and think you are correct.  It was a favorite of one of my late brothers, who was into meditation, and conjures a gentle, soothing and perhaps a "calm in the storm" (of life) and I find that Winds of Change reminds me of Al's And I Always Will on his new album with that great mellow piano, and Lady Lynda, I just have always loved, with its Bach underpinnings (Jésu, Joy of Man's Desiring.) Love that authenticity of the harpsichord opening and closing the song.  

Goin' South has new meaning, almost visionary, yearning for a warm, green place to winter...(Carl does sound as if he had a cold at the time of recording.) The makeup of the album was about 35% rock, but it was done thoughtfully...Mike's vocals are tremendous on Winds of Change and despite the lack of critical acclaim, it is far from anything to cast aside.  Good Timin' and Come Go With Me, sort of emerged as those that hit the AM/FM radio stations.  

It is an old gem to be rediscovered...

[Dunderhead]

Does anybody have a list of alternate versions and mixes of these songs that circulate? I have heard a few, most notable the awesome version of Santa Ana Winds.

[jeremylr]

Here's another relevant section of a new interview with Mark Lindsay, lead singer of Paul Revere & The Raiders.  It was conducted by Pop Culture Classics, whoever they may be.  Great interview, but doesn't really discuss their music in-depth.  Anyway, Lindsay recalled how he met Bruce Johnston, as well as the story that Bruce produced "Steppin' Out."  

Lindsay also discussed Manson, so I added that bit in the Manson/Dennis old thread.

The full interview is here:  http://www.popcultureclassics.com/mark_lindsay.html





PCC:
And was Bruce Johnston involved in producing The Raiders at one point?

LINDSAY:
Yeah. I met Terry Melcher and Bruce Johnston at the same time. I walked into the studio. One of the suits took me into Studio And said, ‘Here’s your new producer, Terry Melcher.’ And we met and he said, Hey, listen to this, man. We’re doing a great song.’ And it was ‘Hey Little Cobra.’ And Bruce Johnston was out in the studio, with his head in a wastebasket, with an RCA 44 mic in there with him, to get the resonance, singing, ‘Shut ‘em down... ‘

So I met those two guys and... Ah, coming back to what I was going to say earlier. You asked how Terry found out about what we did. Well, basically, other than ‘Louie Louie,’ our repertoire was all of these black tunes and New Orleans and stuff. So we went in and just played what we would normally play at a dance and recorded it. And Bruce took over those sessions, because Terry wasn’t really into that kind of music at the time. And Bruce was a little more adventuresome, I guess.

So Bruce actually produced our first single for CBS, or the first chart single, which was ‘Steppin’ Out.’ And sang background on it. So after the success of that, Terry came back and said, Well, you know what, Bruce? I’m going to take over here.’ [Laughs] And we’d liked this song that I’d written, so he then said, ‘Look, I just leased this house. Got a piano. You like to write. We can write some tunes together.’ So that’s when I moved up with Terry and I started cranking out album tunes and we started doing some singles. And that’s how that all came to fruition with Bruce doing the first thing that was commercial and Terry coming back and realizing the commercial potential of the band, which he hadn’t really heard in [Sings] Somethin’s got a hold on me, whoooo!’

PCC:

[Rocker]

Sounded something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4feSrawr2rA

[adamghost]

What a great clip!  I like everything about it.

[bgas]

What a great clip!  I like everything about it.

yes it was! I have to think it was an example of Mark singing while the rest of them did the "synch" thing. 

The posted interview was a great read also. 

[Don_Zabu]

This thread has made me look back and really re-appreciate how well the LA Album was produced.

[adamghost]

What a great clip!  I like everything about it.

yes it was! I have to think it was an example of Mark singing while the rest of them did the "synch" thing. 

The posted interview was a great read also. 

Lead vocal definitely live.  The backups sounded like they may have been too, though I didn't listen closely.

[hypehat]

They really didn't have much to work with, in any case. Poor bastards were working with risible Mike Love originals, of which there was an abundance, Bruce didn't bother, Carl was no doubt saving or had spent his songwriting muscle on solo projects and Brian was running on fumes. The production is hardly the worst thing about these records.

[bgas]

What a great clip!  I like everything about it.

yes it was! I have to think it was an example of Mark singing while the rest of them did the "synch" thing. 

The posted interview was a great read also. 

Lead vocal definitely live.  The backups sounded like they may have been too, though I didn't listen closely.

Well...  the guitars had no cords attached to them, and I don't think they had wireless ones yet, so, I say not. Hard to say about the electric piano