Frankie Valli or Brian Wilson - who had the better falsetto?

[pixletwin]

....the distinction is interesting to me, as I've said before, because if we make it, then Brian is that much more impressive a singer.

Exactly. That is what it all comes down to.

[Pretty Funky]

I've got a few Four Seasons albums and have never even felt the need to compare between Brian and Frankie, in the same way I would not compare between Frank and Dean!

Frankie had the best Falsetto by far.......for "Four Season' songs just as Brian had the best for 'Beach Boys' songs.

[drbeachboy]

...and Dean the best for 'Jan & Dean' songs? 

[Ron]

Ok, I'll play dumb here. Why would a vocal technique forum not care about The Beach Boys?

Well, they tend to either be into operatic singing or their own singing.  In any case, they certainly wouldn't be as into as we are here.

Anybody who tells me Brian sang the chorus of California Girls in full voice is full of merda.  That's falsetto, you don't have to be a vocal expert to know that.

Well, I ask this honestly, did you read any of the links I set up up there?  I mean, I think vocal pedagogues and physiologists can have differing opinions without being full of merda.  The voice is a tricky thing to pin down, the thing that produces it buried within our throats.  That said, the distinction is interesting to me, as I've said before, because if we make it, then Brian is that much more impressive a singer.

I suspect the reason Brian calls it falsetto is the same reason most people mistake what he sings as falsetto: because most people aren't voice teachers.  It's not an important distinction to the guy on the street.  It's technical language.  Unless you're going around discussing the ins and outs of technique, there's no reason to be accurate as long as you are understood.  It's like any specialized field.  Being Beachboysologists here, I'd just sort of like to get it right, much like we want to have dates of recording sessions right.  I find it interesting, anyway--I'm always reading books about vocal technique, so it's bound to spill over here.

You're a good guy.  We all like you.  But you don't have to make up sh*t that Brian was capable of doing, to make him a better singer.  You don't have to say he sang with a special voice to say that he's one of the greatest.  He sang falsetto.  Period!  Brian says he sang falsetto.  Most people say he sang falsetto.  Everybody in the band said he sang falsetto.  Because you want to change what it's called to somehow represent that he was a space alien or whatever is irrelevant.  I didn't read any of your links because it's a common sense thing that doesn't need research.  I sing.  I know how to sing falsetto, and I know falsetto when I hear it, and he's singing falsetto. 

The funny thing is you KNOW he's singing falsetto, you just want to argue it for the sake of arguing it.  He has a thicker, much more full falsetto than most people, but it's STILL FALSETTO.  Posting a quote from someone who says that Brian's falsetto didn't sound like most people's falsetto doesn't lead to the assumption that it's not falsetto.  He's simply got a different voice.  On "In My Room" and things like that, most of it is just head voice, like everybody's been saying, but some of the notes are in false voice.  On many of his tracks, Brian sang falsetto lower than most people do, which lead to it losing the shrill sound generally associated with it.  He's singing "Let Him Run Wild" much, much, much higher than he's singing "In My Room", hence the difference in the shrill tone in his voice.  Sing "In My Room" in the same key and octave as "Let Him Run Wild" and you'll see why one's shrill and one isn't. 

You're doing what a lot of apologists do.  You try to point out ways to show why most people don't 'get' why he or the Beach Boys were so great.  It's unnecessary.  In this instance, you're saying "Oh, he wasn't simnply a falsetto singer! Anybody can sing falsetto! Instead, Brian was singing in FULL VOICE LIKE A WOMAN when he sang those songs!"  What your suggesting is impossible, genetically, and you know it.

He was simply a great singer.  His voice stands on it's own merits, it doesn't need people making it out to be more than it is.


This is the same attitude that denegrates the bands early work... people say "Oh, yeah, the Surf Songs? That's all you've heard?  All their best stuff was done in the early 70's!" .  The surf songs were fucking awesome too.  The Beach Boys aren't great because of only what they did in the later years, part of the reason they are the greatest is because of Surfin' Safari! 

I just hate when people sell them short.  You're saying it makes Brian more impressive if he had a voice that wasn't falsetto, f*** that.  He was impressive period.  He's DEMONSTRABLY the greatest Falsetto singer of all time. 

When you have an opinion about something, you should be able to back it up without inventing things.  Brian was a great singer. Listen to him step into history on Surfin' USA when he sings "Everybody's Gone Surfin' !"    He's been great ever since.  You can prove they were one of the greatest bands of all time with their first 3 albums.  The rest just added onto the legacy. 

[Sam_BFC]

On something like the Wouldn't It Be Nice verses Brian sings pretty high and it is easy to tell not in falsetto IMO...but with something like 'She looks in my eyes...' from Don't Worry Baby, the tone is comparatively different and more suggestive of falsetto to me...

Yes, suggestive of, but in my opinion, it sounds that way because he has just skipped up a seventh there, anytime you skip like that the difference in timbres will be evident.

Aside from the difference in timbre within that particularly song, my point was more directed towards the difference in tone between the songs themselves...I think WIBN goes up to the A above middle C in the verses (?) as does DWB ('I don't know ho-ow long...'?).

I was suggesting that the tonal difference between these two examples - both featuring very similar ranges/notes - is the fact that one is head voice and one is falsetto...of course one was recorded a couple of years later however, but still.

[Don_Zabu]

@Ron's megapost:

Holy merda, man.

[Autotune]

Ron said it best.

Thick, expressive, smooth, whaterver. It IS falsetto. And the best one you can get.

Heck, on later recordings Brian obviously tries to do the same physically but a more pedestrian falsetto sound was produced. But physically, he was doing the same thing on BW88 it's just that he lost the sound. It's falsetto all the way. He's using his upper resonators, it's smooth, thick, you name it. But it's falsetto.

[Runaways]

i think his point was that if we're getting technical between chest, head and falsetto, brian was head voice.  but most are.  people just say falsetto now. 

chuck britz said it wasn't falsetto either. 

my example is the backing vocals in sloop john b.  Those high notes at the "let me go home".  That's pretty deep back in the throat.  I don't think that counts as falsetto, cause you aren't really singing out the top/nasal cavities.  I'd consider that "head voice". 

[Chris Brown]

Calm down guys - I don't think Josh was trying to be argumentative or cause any discord.  All he was trying to do was explain the difference between what Brian did and a true falsetto and correct a very technical misnomer that is commonly used to describe a high voice.  The difference isn't made up at all - it's very real, and those links explain it quite well.  Obviously many posters here have found it to be an interesting subject, so I don't see any harm in bringing it up for discussion.

Bottom line, we all know that Brian's voice in the 60's was incredible and unique, no matter how he was producing the sound. 

[Fall Breaks]

A couple of month ago, I first came across one of Josh's (older) posts about the difference between head voice and falsetto. Before that, I didn't know there even was a difference! Since I sing myself, I tried staying in head voice while going up the scale in Don't Worry Baby. Then I tried singing it as I'd sang it before, and yes, there is a difference. Head voice = louder and stronger, harder to control. Falsetto = weaker but easier to control.

[Runaways]

really? i find head voice a lot easier to control.  Falsetto, in the technical definition sounds pretty bad to me. 

[Fall Breaks]

Maybe it's a practise thing then. I'll be at the piano... 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Well, I'm content to drop it for now, after one last comment.  It's really not an especially important debate, though i was hoping to have a more technical discussion which to me seems more interesting than debating a matter of taste like whose voice you like better.  I'm totally puzzled why you would criticize me without looking at the links Ron, because they, along with a huge body of literature, confirm that I'm not making this up, and that this idea is backed up by most people in the voice and voice pedagogy world.  Somebody might be making it up, but it's not me.  I mean, I don't feel like the voice-teacher industry is out there trying to brainwash people, but it it possible.  If "it's a common sense thing that doesn't need research" you mean you've intuited the terminology without recourse to any outside source?  I'm honestly confused.  Certainly you would concede that the human voice is created by vibrations of the vocal folds when air is passed through them?  When you say that Brian is "demonstrably" in falsetto, are you denying that his vocal folds/cords are adducted, or are you denying that lack of adduction is necessary for falsetto production?  Or, are you simply saying that, normatively speaking, there is no need to distinguish between these very different physiological mechanisms?

I may try to record an example of myself singing in a few different ways sometime, so you can hear what I'm getting at, not that it will be pretty.  By all means, continue to call it falsetto, or George, if you like.  Falsetto more or less gets the point across to most people.  On the other hand, that Hal Blaine played on drums on every Beach Boys hit worked for most people too.

[Runaways]

there's other voices that i don't get.  I think it's just a high chest voice, but on like sam cooke's "a change is gonna come".  Those high notes on "born" in "i was booooorn by the river".

what is that?  I can do that on a clear throat day lol.  But it's like a high chest, but you open up so much.  I'm curious if it's considered chest voice i guess, or a really low head voice??  but then no...it's easy if head voice.  hmm.

[guitarfool2002]

I like this discussion very much, I'm actually very interested in the differences between a falsetto and a high chest or head voice.

For the record, it is amazing how Brian makes it sound effortless when he does hit those high notes, and he has such a smooth quality in those notes which Valli lacked. Carl Wilson would seem to have strained a bit, for an example listen to Wild Honey, or I Was Made To Love Her - it's a solid Carl vocal but at the same time he's forcing the higher notes a bit, and gets more of a Frankie Valli quality on some of them.

And it's not to put some accolades on Brian or anything which he hasn't already received, but it's awesome for me to hear a session tape where he's in the control room singing a part he wants to hear played over the talkback and he's in perfect tune with the part, without having a piano in front of him.

Semi-off topic: Was Minnie Ripperton or Mariah Carey doing a falsetto when they hit those really high notes on a song like Lovin You?

[monkeytree5]

Well, I'm content to drop it for now, after one last comment.  It's really not an especially important debate, though i was hoping to have a more technical discussion which to me seems more interesting than debating a matter of taste like whose voice you like better.  I'm totally puzzled why you would criticize me without looking at the links Ron, because they, along with a huge body of literature, confirm that I'm not making this up, and that this idea is backed up by most people in the voice and voice pedagogy world.  Somebody might be making it up, but it's not me.  I mean, I don't feel like the voice-teacher industry is out there trying to brainwash people, but it it possible.  If "it's a common sense thing that doesn't need research" you mean you've intuited the terminology without recourse to any outside source?  I'm honestly confused.  Certainly you would concede that the human voice is created by vibrations of the vocal folds when air is passed through them?  When you say that Brian is "demonstrably" in falsetto, are you denying that his vocal folds/cords are adducted, or are you denying that lack of adduction is necessary for falsetto production?  Or, are you simply saying that, normatively speaking, there is no need to distinguish between these very different physiological mechanisms?

I may try to record an example of myself singing in a few different ways sometime, so you can hear what I'm getting at, not that it will be pretty.  By all means, continue to call it falsetto, or George, if you like.  Falsetto more or less gets the point across to most people.  On the other hand, that Hal Blaine played on drums on every Beach Boys hit worked for most people too.

Who in the world of music DO you consider falsetto?  I mean, under your criteria, Brian Wilson, Del Shannon, Frankie Valli, Jackie Wilson, Barry Gibb, Marvin Gaye, Al Green, Lou Christie, Jeff Lynne, and Michael Jackson didn't sing falsetto!!

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Semi-off topic: Was Minnie Ripperton or Mariah Carey doing a falsetto when they hit those really high notes on a song like Lovin You?

Whistle register, which most vocal theorists think is only available to women, but yeah, the vocal folds create a little hole like you'd whistle the Andy Griffin theme through, and you get another octave or two up there.

Who in the world of music DO you consider falsetto?  I mean, under your criteria, Brian Wilson, Del Shannon, Frankie Valli, Jackie Wilson, Barry Gibb, Marvin Gaye, Al Green, Lou Christie, Jeff Lynne, and Michael Jackson didn't sing falsetto!!

I haven't put in the same amount of hours on those guys as I have listening to Brian, so I wouldn't care to speculate.  As I mentioned, it can be hard to tell, because some people are able to cultivate a reasonably strong falsetto.  I was listening to some ELO at my workplace, the bookstore, and thought that Lynne seemed pretty falsetto-ish to me, but I could be wrong.  The only reason why I'm so adamant about Brian is because I've listened to him so much.

Part of the reason the distinction can be useful is because there are so many effects you can use with your voice.  For instance, Mike Love sings his lowest bass notes in what Voice teachers etc. call "vocal fry" register, which is actually like a low falsetto.  This is also what the extreme Russian basses use to go way down to low C1s or whatever it is they hit.  And then there's whistle register, and then there are the different things you do with your larynx, so like for Broadway kind of singing, there's this thing called belt, which is a specific larynx/register combo that just gets you a certain sound.  It's kind of like music notation actually.  You don't need to know how to notate a C chord to know what a C chord is or to play one, and likewise you can memorize very complicated pieces of music by ear.  But when you want to communicate subtlety very quickly, nothing works better than writing it down for somebody who reads music well, can see the dynamics and articulations and the notes.  And so in the Jingle voice over world, let us say, having this terminology makes sense.  "Yeah, we're looking for a more falsetto sound for this coommercial,"  or "can you make it less belty?"

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

Alright, so here is me singing the California Girls chorus in three different ways:

https://www.yousendit.com/download/T2pFK3BQYWIwZ252Wmc9PQ

1.  A quite breathy falsetto, best I can do because I don't work to cultivate this very much.

2.  This is fully supported head voice, in pop mode.  The cords are firmly adducted, and I'm really going for a Briany sound here, holding off any kind of vibrato.

3.  This is my opera voice, for what it's worth.  I haven't sung this way for very long, but you can hopefully hear the difference between this and the last one, same register, but different stuff going on to make it sound fuller.  You can hear that the vibrato is there.  If I were better, it would sound even more full, of course.  You'll also notice that I slide up from F sharp 4 to B4 to D sharp 5, without a break of any kind, in full head voice the whole time.  Note that i intentionally made this sound ridiculous because to sing it any other way would make it sound even more ridiculous.

Keep in mind that I move the mic back each repetition, 1 is about an inch away, 2 a foot, 3 about 3 feet away, there's a big volume difference and part of the reason it can be difficult to tell the difference between registers is that Mics can make falsetto sound bigger than it is, although not in my case.

[Runaways]

so i guess in the true sense of the word, nobody really sings falsetto

[hypehat]

The problem here might be that Brian was never formally trained in his prime. I myself have never heard of him having dedicated vocal training during the 60's. He would never have thought of himself as singing a proper falsetto, or proper head voice, as he sung his high parts. He just sang depending on how his voice worked that day.
This doesn't make them any less musical, obviously, but somewhat harder to peg with ordinary musical terms.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It's not really a theremin on "Good Vibrations", you know... 

[Sam_BFC]

aeijtzsche - to try and clarify my understanding of the differences further I would like to refer to Carl's singing for a minute.

If we take the I Can Hear Music verses as an example, I hear this to be sung in head voice until breaking into falsetto for a moment at the last line of the verses such as on 'maybe that's why...' in the first verse.  Do I understand this correctly, or is it rather a case of high chest voice breaking into head voice rather than head voice breaking into falsetto at that moment?

[Runaways]

aeijtzsche - to try and clarify my understanding of the differences further I would like to refer to Carl's singing for a minute.

If we take the I Can Hear Music verses as an example, I hear this to be sung in head voice until breaking into falsetto for a moment at the last line of the verses such as on 'maybe that's why...' in the first verse.  Do I understand this correctly, or is it rather a case of high chest voice breaking into head voice rather than head voice breaking into falsetto at that moment?

the main verse to me is not head.  You can hear the push in his voice from the chest, but it's so high that it blends a bit with the head.  That's how I do it, but it's really hard to do it from the chest, opposed to nothing but head, which is easy.  And I'm preeeetty sure it's also chest cause doing it from the chest is how i get the same tone/voice that carl gets.

I'd say on the the "the way that it iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiIIIS" at the very very end it pushes up to low head voice, but still in the back of the throat.  That's where that quick vibrato at the end comes from i think. 

[Joshilyn Hoisington]

It's not really a theremin on "Good Vibrations", you know... 

Surely you would like to be precise with terminology, AGD?  I would think you would get this, as a tireless corrector of misconception and misguided historiography, the desire to question long-held ideas in search of truth.

 

so i guess in the true sense of the word, nobody really sings falsetto

Not at all.  Think of Matt Sharp of Weezer singing on the Blue album.  That is pure falsetto through and through.  "Say it Ain't So"...  Matt couldn't do anything with that tone, dynamically.


Listen, I know you all have better things to do than read scholarly articles on the voice, but I can tell none of you have read those links and very likely not listened to my clip.  I don't expect you to.  But unless you do, how do you expect to understand the distinction?  Ron says it's common sense.  No it's not.  There is information out there, hundreds of years of singing tradition, cutting edge research (not just for singing but for therapy for people who have voice injuries or speech pathologies), and really quite a critical mass of information that backs me up.  If you choose to ignore that, that's your business.  I can see where it would be quite fun to wind me up and get me all worked up here--and that is certainly what will happen if people pretend that you don't need to research something to understand it.

Nevertheless, it's still not that important of a debate, rather silly in fact, but there you go.

[Andrew G. Doe]

It's not really a theremin on "Good Vibrations", you know...  

Surely you would like to be precise with terminology, AGD?  I would think you would get this, as a tireless corrector of misconception and misguided historiography, the desire to question long-held ideas in search of truth.

Just throwing a little humor into the pot, as things were getting a tad heated.  I see your point, but in this instance, "falsetto or not ?" is considerably less cut and dried than looking at something and saying "that's not a theremin".  To Joe Q. Public, saying "falsetto" is akin to saying "xerox" or "hoover", in that he's not thinking of the absolute technical term, but rather "singing in a high voice" as a catch-all phrase.  You're right, very probably, but you'll never convince 99.9% of the listening public - or even fans - of that, so the battle is, in essence, doomed to failure. Or as my father used to say, "it's a wise man who knows when to say "**** it !"".