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Author Topic: CD Twofers Sound Quality 1990 vs. 2001  (Read 6702 times)
The Heartical Don
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« on: February 05, 2011, 12:54:11 AM »

Which run of the twofers sounds best? Also: can you elaborate about the quality of the later Caribou vs. Capitol albums (e.g. Surf's Up on Caribou vs. Surf's Up as part of the Capitol twofer with Sunflower)? What difference does HDCD make? Do the more recent series suffer from brickwalling?

All type of replies are welcome!
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 01:37:08 AM »

Which run of the twofers sounds best? Also: can you elaborate about the quality of the later Caribou vs. Capitol albums (e.g. Surf's Up on Caribou vs. Surf's Up as part of the Capitol twofer with Sunflower)? What difference does HDCD make? Do the more recent series suffer from brickwalling?

All type of replies are welcome!

Very well... I have no idea.  Grin
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 01:41:56 AM »

Which run of the twofers sounds best? Also: can you elaborate about the quality of the later Caribou vs. Capitol albums (e.g. Surf's Up on Caribou vs. Surf's Up as part of the Capitol twofer with Sunflower)? What difference does HDCD make? Do the more recent series suffer from brickwalling?

All type of replies are welcome!

Very well... I have no idea.  Grin

Then you're no longer 'our' AGD!  Evil Evil Evil

No, sorry... I see a possibility to get an inexpensive CD machine with a HDCD chip, that is one of the reasons I inquired...
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lance
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 02:14:15 AM »

The 1990 ones have some sort of noise reduction applied, which takes out mid-range sounds, and consequently makes the higher range seem really shrill--it hurts my ears with headphones. Physical pain.

The 2000 ones are mastered loud, which also hurts your ears, but at least the mid range is there.

Friends-2020 from 1990 sounds great, though, Ill tell you that.

I havent heard the Caribou albums. The twofers are mastered loud.
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 02:23:46 AM »

The 1990 ones have some sort of noise reduction applied, which takes out mid-range sounds, and consequently makes the higher range seem really shrill--it hurts my ears with headphones. Physical pain.

The 2000 ones are mastered loud, which also hurts your ears, but at least the mid range is there.

Friends-2020 from 1990 sounds great, though, Ill tell you that.

I havent heard the Caribou albums. The twofers are mastered loud.

Remarkable. I'd say that the 1990 ones could have formed an ideal learning platform. But according to your experiences, the newer ones fell victim to the loudness wars... I'm curious if more people share your views. Thanks anyways for posting this.
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lance
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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 03:01:06 AM »

Yeah, in short, neither twofer edition is ideal.
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Paulos
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 03:27:49 AM »

While we are talking abut the twofers, does anyone know why Today! has such a 'muddy' sound and is this the case with the original vinyl release?
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 03:38:45 AM »

While we are talking abut the twofers, does anyone know why Today! has such a 'muddy' sound and is this the case with the original vinyl release?

Strange... I have a vinyl re-release dating from around 1988 and that sounds brilliant.
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 06:27:21 AM »

I disagree about the 1990 Friends/20-20 cd.  That pressing has the stereo spread folded a bit towards the center (on Friends only, not 20-20), not the wide stereo spread of the lp and 2001 cd.  It sounds wrong to me.  The other comments are pretty much what I believe- the 1990 versions are basically less messed with but have too much noise reduction.  The 2001 versions have less noise reduction but more messing around with the signal, and are louder.  The bonus tracks were remixed for the 1990 and again for the 2001  versions, so there are some differences.  A couple of the 2001's have special bonus material after the end of the disc. "Today" has always sounded a bit muffled in all its incarnations- the best I've heard is the Japanese "Pastmasters" series cd version of it- but it still isn't a night and day difference.
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drbeachboy
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 07:09:57 AM »

If you get the HDCD player, the 2-fers will play 6db lower than on a normal player. The Brother stuff (Sunflower onward) is not HDCD and they are a bit louder than the Caribou issues, but they sound much clearer. Also, the 60's CDs are loud, but they are not brickwalled by a long shot. The only rotten sounding loud CD is Sounds Of Summer. My overall opinion is that the 2000/2001 reissues sound better.

EDIT: The 1990 Capitol CDs are no-noised, which to me makes many of the songs sound kind of flat and lackluster, JMHO.
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 07:14:12 AM »

The 1990 ones have some sort of noise reduction applied, which takes out mid-range sounds, and consequently makes the higher range seem really shrill--it hurts my ears with headphones. Physical pain.

They used Sonic Solutions NoNoise "to remove tape hiss and other defects", so I doubt that any mid-range went AWOL, rather the top end.
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The Heartical Don
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« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 07:23:32 AM »

Thanks to everyone who contributed so far. I am not a Hoffmannite for sure, more someone who probably will purchase a new CD here and there, to have the best possible line-up in the end. So far I do have the 1990 Capitol twofers, a few Caribou ones (single disks), and a couple of Capitol twofers from 2001, covering what used to be on Caribou.

Please keep on posting if you have any additional personal observations.
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« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 07:24:46 AM »

Yeah, I AGD, I'm probably wrong about what was reduced. All I know is that I don't like it--I actually prefer the louder releases to the 1990 ones.
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Roger Ryan
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« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 07:26:45 AM »

Yeah, the top end is gone on the '90 releases. While some folks have complained about audio being clipped on the 2001 issues, they are a long way from the "brickwalling" approach that has become acceptable in the last few years. Speaking specifically to the Warner albums, the Caribou releases were muddy and dull; the Capitol two-fers are much stronger. There is still some channel drop-out apparent, on HOLLAND particularly, but I believe that's inherent in the master tapes (as many audiophiles know, the 70s were not a good time for audio tape).
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« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 07:27:38 AM »

Thanks to everyone who contributed so far. I am not a Hoffmannite for sure, more someone who probably will purchase a new CD here and there, to have the best possible line-up in the end. So far I do have the 1990 Capitol twofers, a few Caribou ones (single disks), and a couple of Capitol twofers from 2001, covering what used to be on Caribou.

Please keep on posting if you have any additional personal observations.
Ifyou want the best possible versions alltogether, chuck your CDs  and buy a 4 Track Player and some mint Original 4 track tapes( at least thru Sunflower)
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« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 07:31:20 AM »

More observations: I think the Good Vibrations box sounds relatively good; it's certainly not harsh.

I downloaded a copy of Ten Years of Harmony and I think that had better sound than the 2001 releases. I noticed some parts on backing tracks that I hadn't heard before.

Sounds of Summer Platinum Edition, which I think is a European-only collection is a great collection but it is absolutely the LOUDEST record I own, by ANY artist.

I'm hoping against hope that Capitol will re-release those records for us fans, not as two-fers but as single albums with loads of outtakes, instrumentals etc. Until they do, I have no choice but to make my own.
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« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 07:40:14 AM »

While we are talking abut the twofers, does anyone know why Today! has such a 'muddy' sound and is this the case with the original vinyl release?

Strange... I have a vinyl re-release dating from around 1988 and that sounds brilliant.

yeah i've always figured it was just how it was made. 
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 07:45:50 AM »

Perhaps this is off track, but doesn't the 70's albums have different mixes.

Notably the oldies, I think.
You'd think I'd have these memorized by now.

I think it was Come Go With Me & Rock and Roll Music that differs.
I'm sure Susie Cincinatti has a different mix on there too...there's like 3 different mixes all together for that one (I think)
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« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 07:57:33 AM »

Perhaps this is off track, but doesn't the 70's albums have different mixes.

Notably the oldies, I think.
You'd think I'd have these memorized by now.

I think it was Come Go With Me & Rock and Roll Music that differs.
I'm sure Susie Cincinatti has a different mix on there too...there's like 3 different mixes all together for that one (I think)

I believe the wrong mix was used for "Come Go With Me" on TEN YEARS OF HARMONY, right? It's the correct one on the available MIU two-fer. Both "Rock and Roll Music" and "Susie Cincinati" had unique single mixes on Capitol's BEST OF THE BROTHER YEARS CD, but, again, I believe the proper album versions are on the 15 BIG ONES two-fer.

If they are different, it didn't really stand out to me and I've been listening to those tracks since they were released in '76.
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« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2011, 08:55:40 AM »

Quoting from memory...

The first digital remastered 1990's CD issue of MIU contained different mixes of Come Go With Me, Peggy Sue and Winds Of Change.

And I think there was a shorter edit of Honkin' Down The Highway (drum intro missing?) on the first CD release of Love You.

And I'm not sure if it was the European or US CD-release, but one of them contained the album instead of single mix (or vice versa) of Callifornia Saga - California and (I think) School Days.
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« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2011, 09:32:34 AM »

Quoting from memory...

The first digital remastered 1990's CD issue of MIU contained different mixes of Come Go With Me, Peggy Sue and Winds Of Change.

And I think there was a shorter edit of Honkin' Down The Highway (drum intro missing?) on the first CD release of Love You.

And I'm not sure if it was the European or US CD-release, but one of them contained the album instead of single mix (or vice versa) of Callifornia Saga - California and (I think) School Days.
I know I have that mix of Winds of Change somewhere among the stacks of discs laying around, but can someone refresh my memory of what the different in the mix was from the album mix?

Also, wasn't there a different mix of Sumahama with waves at the beginning or the waves were at the end...or both? idk if that's a single mix or not.

Also Also, wasn't there a single mix of Lady Lynda that didn't have the slow intro with harpsichord or am I just thinking of the 'early version/mix' from the MIU sessions?
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« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2011, 09:49:40 AM »

While we are talking abut the twofers, does anyone know why Today! has such a 'muddy' sound and is this the case with the original vinyl release?

Yes, the original 1960's vinyl was muddy....and dull. You are best advised to hear the music from either edition of the "Two-Fer". My prefered way of listening to the album is from my homemade stereo disc comprised of a combination of "Sea of Tunes" & Capitol stereo remixes.
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Andrew G. Doe
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« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2011, 10:02:54 AM »

Quoting from memory...

The first digital remastered 1990's CD issue of MIU contained different mixes of Come Go With Me, Peggy Sue and Winds Of Change.

And I think there was a shorter edit of Honkin' Down The Highway (drum intro missing?) on the first CD release of Love You.

And I'm not sure if it was the European or US CD-release, but one of them contained the album instead of single mix (or vice versa) of Callifornia Saga - California and (I think) School Days.

Re: the latter point - that was the European release of 10 Years Of Harmony, which had the correct single mixes of "Saga" and "R&R Music".

Also, wasn't there a different mix of Sumahama with waves at the beginning or the waves were at the end...or both? idk if that's a single mix or not.

Japanese single version.

Also Also, wasn't there a single mix of Lady Lynda that didn't have the slow intro with harpsichord or am I just thinking of the 'early version/mix' from the MIU sessions?

That was the US single edit.
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« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2011, 11:02:50 AM »

Also, wasn't there a different mix of Sumahama with waves at the beginning or the waves were at the end...or both? idk if that's a single mix or not.

Japanese single version.

Didn't know it was also to be found on the Japanese single version. I had read in Brad Elliott's Surf's Up book that it could be found on a Japanese smapler LP called Tropical Sounds.
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Check out the Beach Boys Starline website, the place for pictures of many countries Beach Boys releases on 45.

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« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2011, 08:12:30 PM »

For the albums Pre-Sunflower:

1990 two-fers have noise reduction but not maximized.
2001 two-fers have no noise reduction applied but they are maximized (the music is peak limited so that everything is as loud as possible, sometimes causing digital distortion).

The 2000 two-fers for the albums post-Sunflower are pretty good since they use different mastering engineers than the 2001 project.
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