Mike Love wanted the Beach Boys to finish SMiLE

[guitarfool2002]

45's did start to see a decline at that time in the US as albums became more in vogue.  
  

There is no proof of this, but I do have to clarify that statement and assume this is from your own experiences at that time. The 45 rpm format was alive and well into the 1980's, and I can attest to that having bought 45rpm records after hearing them on my Philly local station Hot Hits 98, whose format was as influential to FM Top 40 at that time as a station like KHJ's "Boss Radio" format had been for AM radio in 1966. Many of the 45's were also being packaged in picture sleeves just like the old days, and I remember friends of mine bringing a stack of 45's over to listen.

You'd hear a song on Hot Hits 98, then at the stores they'd have the surveys above the record racks where the songs could be bought on 45's, and it was great if you didn't know the full title or artist. KHJ pioneered the tight format of the "Boss 30" weekly survey which directed which singles received the most airplay, and the Hot Hits format in the 80's copied that formula and rode a few years of incredible ratings until about 1986 when the music business changed.

I will say, having listened to as many of the airchecks from stations like KHJ and KRLA that I can find, that Sgt. Pepper was THE game-changer as far as playing album tracks alongside the singles. From summer of 67 forward, the DJ's would play Beatles album tracks alongside the singles, so you'd hear KRLA play "Blue Jay Way" in Dec 1967 or "Within You Without You" in summer 67. But it was still a singles-driven market.

We're talking about the time in which Smile was being readied for release had it been released, and the 45 rpm single was the main format for the intended audience for pop music, which was kids under 18 especially those in high school. Again, the game changed after Sgt. Pepper but singles and 45's were the bread-and-butter of the industry.

Which must explain why Brian put so much time, effort, money, and thought into the singles GV and H&V. Not because he was confused or unsure but because this was the best foot forward.

Not only the best foot forward but also the standard practice at the time, and essentially the way it worked in the record business in pop music at that time. This was before Pepper, before FM radio took hold, all of that stuff. The single, the radio airplay, the 45 RPM format, and the requisite television appearances to promote that single were the way it was done, and where the focus was directed.

What Cam said is also the reason why something exists resembling a final mix and single edit of Heroes done prior to the "Smiley" version, and how it was possible to include the Cantina version of Heroes on the two-fer releases. There was simply more focus and energy on getting a single mixed and ready to release than there was all the legends of extended "part 2" mixes and test edits and all of that, and why that "Cantina" version of Heroes even exists as a final mixdown which would have been timed for 45 pressings and radio airplay. That single was a major focus.

[filledeplage]

45's did start to see a decline at that time in the US as albums became more in vogue.  
  

There is no proof of this, but I do have to clarify that statement and assume this is from your own experiences at that time. The 45 rpm format was alive and well into the 1980's, and I can attest to that having bought 45rpm records after hearing them on my Philly local station Hot Hits 98, whose format was as influential to FM Top 40 at that time as a station like KHJ's "Boss Radio" format had been for AM radio in 1966. Many of the 45's were also being packaged in picture sleeves just like the old days, and I remember friends of mine bringing a stack of 45's over to listen.

You'd hear a song on Hot Hits 98, then at the stores they'd have the surveys above the record racks where the songs could be bought on 45's, and it was great if you didn't know the full title or artist. KHJ pioneered the tight format of the "Boss 30" weekly survey which directed which singles received the most airplay, and the Hot Hits format in the 80's copied that formula and rode a few years of incredible ratings until about 1986 when the music business changed.

I will say, having listened to as many of the airchecks from stations like KHJ and KRLA that I can find, that Sgt. Pepper was THE game-changer as far as playing album tracks alongside the singles. From summer of 67 forward, the DJ's would play Beatles album tracks alongside the singles, so you'd hear KRLA play "Blue Jay Way" in Dec 1967 or "Within You Without You" in summer 67. But it was still a singles-driven market.

We're talking about the time in which Smile was being readied for release had it been released, and the 45 rpm single was the main format for the intended audience for pop music, which was kids under 18 especially those in high school. Again, the game changed after Sgt. Pepper but singles and 45's were the bread-and-butter of the industry.

Which must explain why Brian put so much time, effort, money, and thought into the singles GV and H&V. Not because he was confused or unsure but because this was the best foot forward.

Not only the best foot forward but also the standard practice at the time, and essentially the way it worked in the record business in pop music at that time. This was before Pepper, before FM radio took hold, all of that stuff. The single, the radio airplay, the 45 RPM format, and the requisite television appearances to promote that single were the way it was done, and where the focus was directed.

What Cam said is also the reason why something exists resembling a final mix and single edit of Heroes done prior to the "Smiley" version, and how it was possible to include the Cantina version of Heroes on the two-fer releases. There was simply more focus and energy on getting a single mixed and ready to release than there was all the legends of extended "part 2" mixes and test edits and all of that, and why that "Cantina" version of Heroes even exists as a final mixdown which would have been timed for 45 pressings and radio airplay. That single was a major focus.

The FM influence you mention was a huge factor...it was a forum for anti-war discussion, in the US, and there were many obscure FM stations which almost overnight became very popular with young people and which featured "album play" with discussion in between as opposed to the top 40 hit parade.  Someone mentioned Breakaway as their last single and I think that was probably mine as well.

What was surprising as I recall is that the FM radio was playing a lot of Holland/Carl and the Passions, after its release, but not the girlie-car-surf earlier 1960's work.  And they were "critically appreciative" in a way you might not hear on AM radio of the newer work. 

It was shocking (pleasantly) to hear Smiley and less well known Pet Sounds stuff, on FM alongside "I Heard it through the Grapevine," while shopping the boutiques in Harvard Square. That is around '68-'69.   

This is getting to be a hot discussion and I think it is important to sort of identify what continent you are on, because not only did the technology change, and the record companies responded with appropriate versions, for each particular market.  EP's would have been great, but LP's became sort of an "identity" thing for young people and particular kids in high school and college, particularly in the Woodstock era.        

[Cam Mott]

"There was simply more focus and energy on getting a single mixed and ready to release than there was all the legends of extended "part 2" mixes and test edits and all of that, and why that "Cantina" version of Heroes even exists as a final mixdown which would have been timed for 45 pressings and radio airplay. That single was a major focus."

Yep, I agree. Not that my personal experience counts for much but my family didn't even have anything we could play an album on until Christmas 1967. I bought singles, still, long after I was also buying albums. The single was king in my experience.

Re. "part 2" mixes: I think more and more that "part 2" must have been a b-side of the SMiLE-era H&V single and that it was intended to be a sort of sampler of the SMiLE album. If so, you would have a homage to the album on the single. Has anyone ever heard of something like that being done before then? Can anyone comfirm or deny that there is indeed a never released side B sampler of PS for a PS era single sitting in the vault?

[bgas]

"There was simply more focus and energy on getting a single mixed and ready to release than there was all the legends of extended "part 2" mixes and test edits and all of that, and why that "Cantina" version of Heroes even exists as a final mixdown which would have been timed for 45 pressings and radio airplay. That single was a major focus."

Yep, I agree. Not that my personal experience counts for much but my family didn't even have anything we could play an album on until Christmas 1967. I bought singles, still, long after I was also buying albums. The single was king in my experience.

Re. "part 2" mixes: I think more and more that "part 2" must have been a b-side of the SMiLE-era H&V single and that it was intended to be a sort of sampler of the SMiLE album. If so, you would have a homage to the album on the single. Has anyone ever heard of something like that being done before then? Can anyone comfirm or deny that there is indeed a never released side B sampler of PS for a PS era single sitting in the vault?

Of course, why worry about PS? 
They did it anyway with WYW, correct? No H&V Pt 2, but an invite into Smile/Smiley, nonetheless. 

[guitarfool2002]

It was shocking (pleasantly) to hear Smiley and less well known Pet Sounds stuff, on FM alongside "I Heard it through the Grapevine," while shopping the boutiques in Harvard Square. That is around '68-'69.   

This is getting to be a hot discussion and I think it is important to sort of identify what continent you are on, because not only did the technology change, and the record companies responded with appropriate versions, for each particular market.  EP's would have been great, but LP's became sort of an "identity" thing for young people and particular kids in high school and college, particularly in the Woodstock era.        

I mentioned in my earlier post my radio station of choice in the 80's was Hot Hits 98 WCAU in Philadelphia, I speak strictly of the US market and have done research on US Top 40 radio of the 60's and 80's - I know little or nothing of the UK or European radio or record markets and how the business was run there.

It's ironic that Harvard Square is mentioned because when I lived in Boston (Back Bay - Mass Ave) we'd also go there to browse the record stores! We'd take the Green Line from Hynes and eventually get to the Red Line at Harvard Square and browse the record and CD stores - great times! Bought some great music there.

[LostArt]

I was 10 years old in 1966, and I could not afford to buy albums.  Everyone I knew was buying 45s well into the early '70s.  Heck, many bands were still releasing songs on 45s only (until they were put on later greatest hits releases) into the 70's.  

I think that Mike probably wasn't fond of the Smile material.  I don't think he liked Good Vibrations all that much until he put his lyrics in there and it went to #1.  Most of the Smile stuff was recorded in 1966.  1966.  This music was way ahead of it's time in 1966.  Nobody was doing stuff like Cabinessence or Wonderful or Surf's Up in 1966.  Yes, Mike did sing well on everything that we've heard from those sessions, all of the guys did.  That was their job, and they did it well.  But this music was such a far cry from stuff that they'd recorded just a year before.  I think, though, that the success of Good Vibrations (and Strawberry Fields Forever and other 'forward thinking' music of the day) showed the boys that you could have success with that type of material.  So, by spring of '67 I think he did want Brian to finish the album.  They'd put an awful lot of time and money into the project, and you know that they had heard all of the 'buzz' surrounding the album.  Yeah, I think they all (eventually) wanted Smile to be released.  All, of course, except Brian.

[Cam Mott]

"Of course, why worry about PS?  
They did it anyway with WYW, correct? No H&V Pt 2, but an invite into Smile/Smiley, nonetheless."

Well, maybe - but what I'm saying is: it seems to me that H&V Part 2 was a homage to SMiLE as a sampler of the album. All tracks based on a part of an album track but altered to be not identical to the album - ie. all from the album but in a different key, or different mood, different instrumentation, some minor adjustment from the actual album track it was referencing. Right, or is it just me?

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

[filledeplage]

It was shocking (pleasantly) to hear Smiley and less well known Pet Sounds stuff, on FM alongside "I Heard it through the Grapevine," while shopping the boutiques in Harvard Square. That is around '68-'69.   

This is getting to be a hot discussion and I think it is important to sort of identify what continent you are on, because not only did the technology change, and the record companies responded with appropriate versions, for each particular market.  EP's would have been great, but LP's became sort of an "identity" thing for young people and particular kids in high school and college, particularly in the Woodstock era.        

I mentioned in my earlier post my radio station of choice in the 80's was Hot Hits 98 WCAU in Philadelphia, I speak strictly of the US market and have done research on US Top 40 radio of the 60's and 80's - I know little or nothing of the UK or European radio or record markets and how the business was run there.

It's ironic that Harvard Square is mentioned because when I lived in Boston (Back Bay - Mass Ave) we'd also go there to browse the record stores! We'd take the Green Line from Hynes and eventually get to the Red Line at Harvard Square and browse the record and CD stores - great times! Bought some great music there.

Yes!  It was/is a very cool area!  My first BB tix came from the Out of Town News (Ticket) kiosque at Harvard Square where they had daily newspapers and magazines from all over the world in all those languages and had "real" tickets.  I would go after school on the day they went on sale ( I should have "played hooky" from school because I worried all day staring out the window at school, that all the "good" seats would be gone.) 

But as a ticket dealer, they had great seats and then afterwards to go to a place called "Bailey's" ( a local ice cream parlor and candy chain) for a sundae, where the hot  fudge (or butterscotch) and marshmallow dripped onto a little silver-plated tray. 

And, yes, on the "Red Line!"  We are buried now under about a foot and a half of snow!  Time to take Carl's advice and start "Goin' South for the Winter..."   

[bgas]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

HA!
45 years later, you want to invent the possibility that Brian was thinking about a Smilish sampler intro to an LP, to be issued on a 45, before he ever thought of doing Smile, and  this intro would be for Pet Sounds. 
"So far uncorroborated" my butt. 
When Brian first began writing songs he was really thinking about how he was going to be able to meld his then-current musical ideas into the Dumb Angel project which he wouldn't start for some years. This is , THO, "So far uncorroborated"

[Andrew G. Doe]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

"Uncorroborated" as in 'non existent', maybe ? 

[Cam Mott]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

"Uncorroborated" as in 'non existent', maybe ? 

Possibly, that's why I keep asking if anyone else has seen this. This BE told to me by this researcher who used to BE highly regarded and had even BEen in the tape vaults; so I'm curious if anyone else can say whether it BE or not BE, that BE the question.

[Cam Mott]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

HA!
45 years later, you want to invent the possibility that Brian was thinking about a Smilish sampler intro to an LP, to be issued on a 45, before he ever thought of doing Smile, and  this intro would be for Pet Sounds. 
"So far uncorroborated" my butt. 
When Brian first began writing songs he was really thinking about how he was going to be able to meld his then-current musical ideas into the Dumb Angel project which he wouldn't start for some years. This is , THO, "So far uncorroborated"

We got off track somewhere, the supposed PS B-side sampler was supposedly for like the GOK single and was supposedly a collection of PS recordings intended presumably to promote PS. Allegedly. Anybody? Anybody?

Anyway, now we have more witness that H&V single was indeed to cover the A & B sides and we have always had the evidence that the H&V 2 tracks had there own master number which ran concurrent with the H&V master number and we have always known that the H&V Part2 tracks are snippets of other SMiLE tracks but somewhat rejiggered. Am I off-base or over stating any of that? Correction welcome.

Even if the PS sampler B-side for a PS single turns out to be false it still leaves the H&V Part 2 tracks as SMiLE album samples with there separate master number and reported intention of an H&V with an A and B side in my view.

[Andrew G. Doe]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

"Uncorroborated" as in 'non existent', maybe ? 

Possibly, that's why I keep asking if anyone else has seen this. This BE told to me by this researcher who used to BE highly regarded and had even BEen in the tape vaults; so I'm curious if anyone else can say whether it BE or not BE, that BE the question.

Cam... I've been part of this mad whirl since summer 1975... active 'researcher' since 1977... and this is the very first I've ever heard of anything like this. I think you've BEen had. 

[Cam Mott]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

"Uncorroborated" as in 'non existent', maybe ? 

Possibly, that's why I keep asking if anyone else has seen this. This BE told to me by this researcher who used to BE highly regarded and had even BEen in the tape vaults; so I'm curious if anyone else can say whether it BE or not BE, that BE the question.

Cam... I've been part of this mad whirl since summer 1975... active 'researcher' since 1977... and this is the very first I've ever heard of anything like this. I think you've BEen had. 

I think you might BE right.

[guitarfool2002]

I'm still wondering what BEcame of those Smile photo reprints! 

[guitarfool2002]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

HA!
45 years later, you want to invent the possibility that Brian was thinking about a Smilish sampler intro to an LP, to be issued on a 45, before he ever thought of doing Smile, and  this intro would be for Pet Sounds. 
"So far uncorroborated" my butt. 
When Brian first began writing songs he was really thinking about how he was going to be able to meld his then-current musical ideas into the Dumb Angel project which he wouldn't start for some years. This is , THO, "So far uncorroborated"

We got off track somewhere, the supposed PS B-side sampler was supposedly for like the GOK single and was supposedly a collection of PS recordings intended presumably to promote PS. Allegedly. Anybody? Anybody?

Anyway, now we have more witness that H&V single was indeed to cover the A & B sides and we have always had the evidence that the H&V 2 tracks had there own master number which ran concurrent with the H&V master number and we have always known that the H&V Part2 tracks are snippets of other SMiLE tracks but somewhat rejiggered. Am I off-base or over stating any of that? Correction welcome.

Even if the PS sampler B-side for a PS single turns out to be false it still leaves the H&V Part 2 tracks as SMiLE album samples with there separate master number and reported intention of an H&V with an A and B side in my view.

I just remember Chuck Britz saying something about a H&V part 2 for a B-Side, and Chuck was usually reliable as anyone but as soon as Brian carried the tapes out of there Chuck wasn't involved in the inner workings of what would be released.

I'm thinking hard and I know there may be others, but the only example I can think of which sounds like this B-Side "promo" for pet Sounds is a super-rare Paul McCartney promo that he sent to radio stations to promote Ram in '71. If I remember it was a string of album cut previews mixed in with McCartney talking about the record so DJ's could play it, I guess, similar to any radio ad. If my memory is right that would sound incredibly close to the Pet Sounds thing.

Maybe the Pet Sounds deal was intended for radio stations and not a release to the public? Assuming it did exist of course.

[A Million Units In Jan!]

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

"Uncorroborated" as in 'non existent', maybe ? 

Possibly, that's why I keep asking if anyone else has seen this. This BE told to me by this researcher who used to BE highly regarded and had even BEen in the tape vaults; so I'm curious if anyone else can say whether it BE or not BE, that BE the question.

Cam... I've been part of this mad whirl since summer 1975... active 'researcher' since 1977... and this is the very first I've ever heard of anything like this. I think you've BEen had. 

I think you might BE right.

Don't feel bad, though. You're not the first to have BEen had. Merely another numBEr in a long list of numBErs.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

Yup...he BEen lyin'

[Cam Mott]

OK, here is what I was told for what it is worth: The Capitol 5706 single was originally to be GOK on the A side with a 5 minute 23 second medley of Pet Sounds tracks as the B side and that the master tape of the medley still existed [1999] in Capitol's vault and was assembled on June 29 1966.

Anyone with knowledge of Capitol's tape vault ever seen or heard this?

[Andrew G. Doe]

OK, here is what I was told for what it is worth: The Capitol 5706 single was originally to be GOK on the A side with a 5 minute 23 second medley of Pet Sounds tracks as the B side and that the master tape of the medley still existed [1999] in Capitol's vault and was assembled on June 29 1966.

Anyone with knowledge of Capitol's tape vault ever seen or heard this?

A 5 minute 23 second single side... in early 1966 ?  As a sampler for an album that had been in the racks for well over a month by the time it was allegedly assembled, and which album was already beginning to slip back down the charts ?

Anyone see a small degree of illogic here ?

[Cam Mott]

OK, here is what I was told for what it is worth: The Capitol 5706 single was originally to be GOK on the A side with a 5 minute 23 second medley of Pet Sounds tracks as the B side and that the master tape of the medley still existed [1999] in Capitol's vault and was assembled on June 29 1966.

Anyone with knowledge of Capitol's tape vault ever seen or heard this?

A 5 minute 23 second single side... in early 1966 ?  As a sampler for an album that had been in the racks for well over a month by the time it was allegedly assembled, and which album was already beginning to slip back down the charts ?

Anyone see a small degree of illogic here ?

I'm not seeing a logic problem, PS was still on its way up to its Billboard peak [July 2] at the time.

If it did exist, it seems that it was decided within a couple of weeks to go with WIBN anyway because WIBN was already showing up on radio station's boss picks in mid-July. If it did exist, I'm wondering if it might have been a Capitol staff comp rather than a Brian comp. If.

[buddhahat]

"Of course, why worry about PS?  
They did it anyway with WYW, correct? No H&V Pt 2, but an invite into Smile/Smiley, nonetheless."

Well, maybe - but what I'm saying is: it seems to me that H&V Part 2 was a homage to SMiLE as a sampler of the album. All tracks based on a part of an album track but altered to be not identical to the album - ie. all from the album but in a different key, or different mood, different instrumentation, some minor adjustment from the actual album track it was referencing. Right, or is it just me?

FWIW Cam, I think the theory of Heroes part 2 as a Smile sampler is one of the more interesting I've heard on this board. As a concept, Brian constructing a B side that is ostensibly the Heroes riff but refracted through the key Smile songs is a beautiful one and if you listen to some of the purported 'Part 2' fragments there's a good foundation for your theory: Heroes Intro is Fire in miniature, Swedish Frog is a microcosm of the barnyard elements, and so on. More interestingly for me, it would explain the sheer repetitiveness of the potential Part 2 pieces (all those "The Heroes, The Heroes" sections have always seemed odd to me; more like the product of a speed-addled mind than genius at work, and seemingly far less artful than most of the Smile material), but if they were to be intercut with small samplers for the album it makes more sense: A sort of reinforcement of the identity of the song ("The Heroes, The Heroes, don't forget listener: this is H&V b-side, not an incoherent mish-mash of unrelated songs!") despite the apparently unrelated fragments interspersed throughout: Intro, Swedish Frog, All Day etc.

[Mahalo]

I also think some of those H&V pt. 2 pieces were meant to be overdubbed on top of the foundational work of H&V...been thinking about it a lot. If we take H&V from Smiley and then use that as a basis for what Brian was going for, but add some of the more complex parts on top of the chant, then we may have a more definitive rather than stripped down version of what Brian was hearing...still have mixed feelings about the Baldwin overdub during the chant....

[guitarfool2002]

I also think some of those H&V pt. 2 pieces were meant to be overdubbed on top of the foundational work of H&V...been thinking about it a lot. If we take H&V from Smiley and then use that as a basis for what Brian was going for, but add some of the more complex parts on top of the chant, then we may have a more definitive rather than stripped down version of what Brian was hearing...still have mixed feelings about the Baldwin overdub during the chant....

But I don't think we can take the Smiley version of H&V as a basis for much of anything except the version he eventually released after Smiley had begun. Not to detract from the Smiley take, but the fact that a fully edited, mixed, and sequenced version from the time when Smile sessions were going full-speed ahead exists might be more of an indication that the "In The Cantina" version was more of that basis.

That "In The Cantina" mix has not only the surprise/humor element which what Brian's whole trip for Smile, but also the radical sound effects (tape explosion/distortion), the musical effects (French Horn overblowing), the general pulse and drive of the track which was closer to the production feel of Good Vibrations, and a moment of sheer beauty (the whole In The Cantina middle section, which is stunning as a standalone piece of music).

Remember the Anderle and Vosse interviews where they both said several times how the final Heroes version (Smiley) left out some brilliant sections of music? And also how those two dropped hints about how they'd ask Brian to play them mixes of certain Smile sections again and again because they were just so into the music? They were remembering these detailed things several years or more after hearing them, and at that point not many outside that circle had heard them. That's the earlier Heroes for one, and I don't know if the released version was as close to the core of the Smile theme as those earlier mixes, which I think are brilliant.

I take what we call H&V part 2 as a natural continuation of Good Vibrations, the modular songwriting format that made Good Vibrations so innovative provided Brian had the time to cobble together just the right combination and sequence of sections to create a compelling record. The "Cantina" Heroes mix was close, so close, and he held in his bag of tricks a full selection of tape segments which he could fly in and out of song forms at will, again provided he had the time and the focus and which he really didn't have after that initial October-February burst of activity.

So we get a string of available segments instead of a sequenced piece, although I think the compilation of those segments was compelling enough after the fact to stand as a track by itself! Ahhhhh...the irony.

[XY]

OK, here is what I was told for what it is worth: The Capitol 5706 single was originally to be GOK on the A side with a 5 minute 23 second medley of Pet Sounds tracks as the B side and that the master tape of the medley still existed [1999] in Capitol's vault and was assembled on June 29 1966.

Anyone with knowledge of Capitol's tape vault ever seen or heard this?

A 5 minute 23 second single side... in early 1966 ?  As a sampler for an album that had been in the racks for well over a month by the time it was allegedly assembled, and which album was already beginning to slip back down the charts ?

Anyone see a small degree of illogic here ?

A 5 minute Pet Sounds medley? The promo film comes to mind, but I guess that was done earlier.