The Smiley Smile Message Board

From an interview in 2007. What do you think, would it have been better than Brian Wilson Presents SMiLE?

from http://www.concertlivewire.com/interviews/beachint.htm

Livewire: I'm curious what your take is on Brian Wilson's release of Smile as a solo record rather than linking up with the rest of the living Beach Boys?

Love: It's historically become one of the most famous unreleased albums and I wasn't in favor of [Brian re-recording and releasing it]. I heard him quoted as saying his new group was better than the Beach Boys and I think that's impossible because we all had pretty darn good vocals together! Smile was sort of the follow-up to Pet Sounds that Brian shelved for many years, but it was re-done without those of us who are still around to accomplish the manifestation of it. I would've preferred it to be a Beach Boys project than a Brian solo album, but if people like it, great.

Yes...it would've been...(if Brian was as involved as the perception was given 4 BWPS)....

Brian's band will never replace the Beach Boys' vocal blend. The bootlegs and released bits we have now with Beach Boys vocals are infinitely better than any of the BWPS recordings. Just my opinion, of course.

Opinion? No, Fact...that blend is a color that is yet to be invented...(till the 7 disc SMiLE boxset comes out his summer)....

....same goes for the instrumental versions of those tunes...

I'm just wondering if Mike had in mind to start from scratch - would the blend have worked without Carl?

No. Obviously Brian's voice has been lost from 1967, and Carl's loss is too painful to talk much about. Regardless, any of the survivng BB's would've contributed greatly to the timbre of BWPS...but Carl's voice adds so much dimension to anything in ever....sigh.

Mike probably is too distracted to start from a creative scratch...

I can't say my opinions are "facts"...they tend to lead to an exodus or two. Horses for courses and all that, right mate?

Comparing "Wind Chimes", I prefer the BWPS SMiLE version to the BB recording. One of Brian's best vocal performances since ages.

i've thought about this and it would have been really cool.  The guys together sounded better, no doubt.  but carl and dennis were pretty key i think. 

I don't prefer any of the BWPS tracks to the ones laid down back in '66-'67. Even the snippets done back then  are better than the full songs on BWPS.
As far as the vocals go, aside from H&V, and 'Who Ran The Iron Horse', how many of the original tracks have full blown BB's vocals on them?

Totally agree! I've listened the hell out of that track...that and 'On A Holiday' - FAR more brilliant sounding than the 66/67 tapes.

Surf's Up from BWPS sounds just amazing....especially Brian's vocal in the coda.

So, MANY of the 66/67 SMiLE boots sound TERRIBLE (Holidays anyone?). (this may be a really stupid/obvious question) when/if they release a boxset, will the instrumentals sound as good as the instrumentals on the Pet Sounds Session box?

I suppose it depends on how many of the original tapes still exist in the vaults.  If they have to use 10th generation tape copies and acetates to fill in any gaps, then don't bet on it.

Do you mean 'Terrible' as in sound quality, or in just overall quality? I can't think of one piece of BWPS that is better than the originals. Not one snippet. I like BWPS, and in fact parts of it are really good. Compared to the original stuff, though, it isn't even close. My opinion, of course.

My interpretation is that the TERRIBLE reference was to sound quality.  I don't see how anyone could knock the performances on the originals.  I also like BWPS, but it's a different animal in some ways.  It's strongest point, IMO, is the fact that it's complete.

-cough-PurpleChickmix-cough-

I was referring to the sound quality....not the performance.


Most boots I've heard have lacked in quality....'Do You Like Worms' from the 1993 boxset was somewhat lacking in quality too....but then again, compared to the latest stereo and mono remasters, many songs on that boxset don't sound that good (to my ears anyway).

Yeah, there are some versions of tracks that sound just terrible, sound-wise. Almost like it was being played through an AM station that wasn't coming in clearly.

I'd guess it pisses Mike off everyday smile never got completed

I am certain that Smile would never have been completed with BB involvement. Brian simply needed to do it with new people. He had excellent support from Darian, who balanced past work and present possibilities when it was in process. It is, like Rhapsody in Blue, a tone poem created for live performance. Smile in the 60s was a record.

Smile`s premier in 2004 was an incredibly moving experience. One I could never get from a record. Records are sonic reproductions of a performance. Music is first and foremost a live art. The thrill of making it is for me in live performance. Brian used his 60s work as a starting point for the finished Smile. It is timeless music, at times haunting in its beauty.

Darian helped VDP by using his knowledge of past Smile to help facilitate Smile as Brian and VDP completed it for live work. The beauty of Smile live is imcoparable to any record--60s or from the 04 sessions. The first movement is deeply disturbing and saddening as it reviews the movement of the Europeans across the North American continent to Hawaii, destroying Native American culture. The second movement to me is my favorite, reflecting as it does from life`s beginning to old age and beyond. There is a profund scope of emotions within. Movement 3 mixes humor and pathos as it runs through several vignettes of human consciousness. Good Vibrations follows a closing reprise of Prayer, invoking the idea of Love being the binding element of our spirituality.

I think that comparing Smile 67 to the completed work is unfair to both pieces of work. Records are records, but live performance is irreplaceable. It is how humans have expressed their music throughout time, and always will be. Brian now writes for live performance. That is probably how he will create for the rest of his creative life. His recorded work in the studio from the 60s is a different  type of creative process, and in my opinion, needs to be regarded as such.

Well said, Peter...and I might I add that "That Lucky Old Sun" seemed to work better live than on record, too (judging from the live recordings I've heard, and comparing those to the finished album).

I think what Peter so eloquently said is what a lot of people feel; that BWPS and the original SMiLE, are almost 2 separate entities. The tracks may be the 'same', however they come from 2 different places.

I was stunned, hearing SMiLE finished, that it came across as a totally different piece of work to me.  Strung together it has a different kind of power and you realize, yes, there WAS an overarching theme to the record, not just a bunch of random thoughts of the moment.  That was the biggest revelation to me.

I hadn't thought of the live angle, but I agree that SMiLE as a finished work hit me in a totally different way than the fragments had.

 The original material is untouchable.  Nobody will ever beat Brian's 1967 vocal of Surf's Up.  When I listen to BWPS, I honestly miss the vocals from the other Beach Boys.   It's Brian's masterpiece, but their vocals add life to it.

Mike and I have that in common...

How about "Our Prayer", "Wonderful"," Vegetables", and "Cabin Essence".  I guess you could also count "Good Vibrations".

Funny thing to see opinions shifting since the initial blasts of BWPS fever, I remember getting into a few heated debates on the old Smile board when I said a similar thing about the 66-67 Smile never being designed as nor considered for a full-blown live performance but rather as the studio creation as it was unfolding at that time from session to session. Remember the only song that was performed live both in 1966 and 2004 needed to have a special instrument *custom designed and created by Bob Moog* just to pull off a competent stripped-down live performance in 1966.

Can you elaborate?


I don't think Wonderful was fully finished...

Great call, Peter. Strongly reminds me of what Sergiu Celibidache thought about a ‘performance’ as a one-off musical event, never to be repeated, but to be approached (perhaps improved upon) in a next attempt.
Makes me reminisce about the first time I heard ‘Ms. O’Leary’s Cow’, live in London, February 2004. A once-in-a-lifetime experience. I had scrupulously avoided hearing anything of it beforehand (I was at the 3rd show at the RFH). The chorus, now that was something… it’s still reverberating in my head, so to speak.
I shudder to imaging having heard it at a listening post in some anonymous record store instead, for the first time I mean.
BTW: Celibidache (‘Celi’ for his loyalists) was bootlegged many, many times by fans. Surely reminds me of someone…

At the peril of opening up a can of worms, I think a lot of what is being said here, is a complete insult to the intelligence of Beach Boys fans who purchased and wore out the grooves of the Smiley Smile album in 1967.  To interject a little humor, I would play the 2004 CD while driving my then 15 year old to school and remind him that I was just 15 when it was released and waited those 37 years for the project to be "completed."  He would do a little "neighing" of his own to the Barnyard song...

The tracks of the 1967 have been rearranged and renamed.  There are tracks which appeared in the Good Vibrations Box Set and a French edition of Smiley (with a 1964 or so photo on the front, so it is not even a Smile era photo) and with the exception of the staged "Fire" scene, which was a pseudo pyrotechnics approach following the catastrophic Great White fire calamity in Rhode Island, USA, when, I, too saw SMiLE live.  Surf's Up, which Brian sang on a Leonard Bernstein young composer series, in 1967 is also included on the 2004 version, although the title track to its own LP, released later in time. 

It is not new music.  In my opinion it is "revisited and re-arranged."  And for those who have listened to this fine crystalline work, since 1967, and compare the music with the tracks, for example "I Love to Say Dada" is "Roll Plymouth Rock" and others use sections of Smiley, which is not a "perfect overlay" but I find the structure is essentially there. 

Was an audience ready to receive a performed Smiley Smile in 1967? No way.  Were they in 2004, after this "living legend" work which had been written on, studied about, and theorized about "took on a life of its own" and perhaps it might have been a vision, which is entirely possible of Brian, that this opus, would be performed without the distractions of "Help Me, Rhonda" or "Wendy" but in that time, at the height of the Vietnam War, and raging race riots in the US, it probably would not have been possible. 

And the whole "colonialism" issues were revisited in "The Trader" on Holland subsequent to this. I think Al Jardine has done a  nice job with his Postcard release, but the sparkling aspect of this work, for me,  is that there are Beach Boys, singing the tracks.  Not unlike Flaubert's Madame Bovary, where he worked 5 years looking for "le mot juste" Al is said to have worked an identical 5 years and it shows.  I am glad I did not get it right off the bat, so I could listen to it later, and decide for myself as to its merit.  Excellent.

It was very cool to see Brian, perform live, mixing both his Beach Boys classic material with his "body of work" material as he did for  his Pet Sounds tour in 2000, which I also saw.  It is what we "lifers" do.  We see these guys, in any format, because the music is of such quality.  But, this whole "revisionist history" concept is vexing to those of us, who, under one umbrella or another have managed to have a fairly close "assembly"  of Smiley and bonus tracks (plus or minus a couple) to line up and compare them.   Is it an exact match?  No. But it is pretty darned close. 

The other aspect of this time lapse is that those who did not have the attention span or the appreciation to have sat for the entire work, in 1967, now have the attention span and the dough.  And the format was not practical in all likelihood to perform this work as a solo performance, given the then-existing format for rock concerts in 1967.   

The "record" was the means of getting the work out to the people, to the furthest reaches of this planet, who have never seen the Boys live, nor will they ever see them.  The Smile legend took on "a life of its own," and for many it was pure curiosity, in my view, which drew them to the newer version of the original work, which many did not really know.  We all love a story with a happy ending.  We rejoice for Brian's return to perform for us.  Lots of grown ups, in their 60's, in tears to see Brian for the first time.  There is a lot of love out there for Brian.   

What worked and was marketable to baby boomers who had the money to pay for a theater seat, a DVD, CD and a beer, were largely teens or college students in the late 1960's. "No money, honey!" was the motto of the late 1960's.  The video link in a thread below provides interviews and work, which is in the musicians own words...Brian's telling why the project was shelved...no one put any words in his mouth...

And, I struggle with the notion of the "superiority of the 04 work" without the voice of Carl Wilson and the other Beach Boys vocals with the allegations of a lack of completion under one umbrella or another.  And, suggest that people line up the 1967 Smiley plus whatever released tracks alongside the newer version and decide for themselves.  If you have listened to this work for 40+ years, I think you're qualified! (in my book)    ;)               

Sure! When the Beach Boys and Brian realized they'd need to tour behind Good Vibrations they needed a Theremin. They asked Dr. Paul Tanner who was the musician on all the sessions and a busy guy in Hollywood to tour with them for that one song. Tanner could not do it. Then they sought out Bob Moog, since he was (and still is) one of the only people making and selling authentic Theremins on the market. They found Moog's associate Walter Sear (current owner of Sear Sound, one of the finest studios in the world for vintage gear). Sear showed them the real Theremin but no one could play it or keep it in tune.

Sear then took the problem to his boss Bob Moog, and Moog came up with the ribbon controller idea, which had the same control basically as Paul Tanner's custom "Tannerin" as heard on the records but which was less complex and easier to play and carry around on tour. That Moog Ribbon Controller is what Mike used on tour from then on, including the Ed Sullivan show which featured closeups of him playing it, and Moog himself incorporated that controller into some of his earliest modular Moog instruments.

That same ribbon controller is what The Beatles used on Abbey Road for all the sweeps and glissando effects. It originated with a request from The Beach Boys to have a touring version of a Theremin that could be played easier than a real one.

Good Vibrations is the only tune played live both in 66 and 40 years later on the various concert tours. They needed a custom instrument built for that *one song* to be done live in a convincing albeit stripped-down way for audiences. Imagine not having Kurzweil, and triggering, and sampling, and a full horn section and trying to do a good, full live version of Smile in 67.

I submit Smile in its origins was never intended to be reproduced live, and some other fans and Smile researchers disagreed a few years ago.

BWPS is not a finishing of Smile. It's a re-recording and completion of fragments  belonging to the Smile sessions. There is no way to assert that what came out is the Smile album as was conceived and left unfinished in 66-67. In fact, there's no way to show that Brian had a full album concept at the time. Nor is it possible to prove that Smile was going to consist only of the tracks that appeard on BWPS, which is almost like saying that it was going to consist of the tracks BW had recorded until  he quit . In the end, what we got is a nice edit and finishing of the tracks that were doing the fanboy rounds for decades.

I like to think people who complain about BWPS are just secretly jealous of Darian being to able to consult Brian about his own Smile mix  ;D

Smile is as finished and unfinished as anyone wants it to be. The original sessions, those original months of creativity, were never _resolved_ per se. They dribbled out and were transmuted into something else. They will never -- can never -- be finished. No one can do it, and the Brian of the 60s is gone.

But I think Smile is finished if you mean the mythical project that really started tormenting Brian in the 80s. The Smile that he _remembered_ and tried to re-create in songs like Rio Grande and Happy Days, the Smile that he had to answer questions about in interviews. When he and Darian and Van Dyke sat down and tackled that material, and put it into a final form for performance, that was finishing _something_. And it's also difficult to deny, as Adam said, that the final, finished running order makes the piece work in a really cool way.

It was an end for Brian. He did his part. But it's not an end for us, or for those original recordings. I fear that the economics of the record business make it increasingly unlikely, but a Smile sessions set has been a no-brainer for years. It would allow the general public to experience both visions of the material -- and I don't think either suffers for the comparison.

I might agree, with you, by why do you say that it started tormenting him in the '80s. You think he was somewhat "over it" from like '67 to the end of the '70s? I think I might agree with you on that actually. I mean, I'm sure it wasn't his favorite issue, but I think he accepted what happened with the songs, like "Surf's Up" being the title-track of the '71 album, "Cool Cool Water," etc. I think the constant questions probably did annoy him, if only because he is an artist, and many artists are into having to revisit their old material, no matter how good that material is. On the concert stage is one thing, but having to go into the studio and try to get in the mindset of where you were, especially if you don't want to, probably isn't something many artists wanna do. I think Brian resolved SMiLE with Smiley Smile and (with the help of Carl and Reilly) the release of "Surf's Up".

Just my opinion. I think this may become "the thread", but maybe not.

I just mean that Smile doesn't seem to have acquired its current status until the 80s -- when boots began to spread far and wide and folks like Dom P. started writing about it in the present tense. This is just a feeling or intuition. But the Brian of Sunflower or Love You or even coked-out 80-83 doesn't seem to really talk about or even be bothered by the project _as much_. He even helped reassemble Surf's Up. So something changed -- probably his near-death experience and second Landy treatment, the publicity around that and nostalgia for the 60s -- and Smile became something much more pressing. It became a symbol of lost promise. And you get to BW88, and Brian -- someone who is not known for doing a lot of self-conscious looking back -- allows himself to be persuaded to do a full-on Smile homage. An odd time.

Aw crap here we go again......



Why don't they just run some old archived SMiLE Shop posts??????

Exactly.  Very well said and an excellent post.

OK, so it's putting unwanted memories behind. But not finishing an album. :)

It is happy that BWPS is a great accomplishment for Brian but it is sad that the other Boys haven't been given closure with SMiLE.

Actually it is. Because it is an album that was finished and released. So while it isn't finishing what would have been the album, and may not be finishing what you wish had been the album, it most certainly is finishing an album.

Exactly!

I have to kinda wonder if it really gave Brian a lot of peace of mind that he finished it. I mean, lets look at the facts. Pre-boxset, he had already released "Heroes & Villains", "Vegetables", "Fall Breaks...", "She's Goin' Bald", "With Me Tonight", "Wind Chimes", "Wonderful", "Whistle In", "Mama Says', "Little Bird", "Our Prayer", "Cabinessence", "Cool Cool Water", and "Surf's Up". That gives quite a lot of insight to the fact, besides "Cabinessence" and "Our Prayer", which apparently were finished without him, he used either SMiLE era ideas in other songs like "Little Bird" and "Cool Cool Water" or outright used the song in a different situation like "Wonderful", "Surf's Up", etc. I think maybe he made peace somewhat with SMiLE after the "Surf's Up" situation in '71, and was content to move his music forward in whatever way he wanted after that. I do agree that until the late-ish '80's he just seemed like he would talk about SMiLE, but kinda with the attitude that it was something that didn't quite work out. After the rumors of the release of it in the late '80's and throughout the '90s and into the 2000's, he seemed a bit more weird about it.

Closure for Brian was BWPS. I don't think the remaining living members care much with exception to royalty checks from a formal SMiLE release.

Whether it was closure or not, I do think that the public adulation and very positive reviews it received was good for his ego, which put him on the road to being more productive.

Seconded. I can't see a can of worms having been opened here. Filledeplage (see above) is entirely entitled to her own experience of the whole enterprise (hmmm, alliteration galore). I described how I felt, in February 2004, a musical sensation that towers above everything else I ever was witness to. Of course I know that many folks haven't been as lucky as I was... getting tickets, traveling to London on a shoestring budget, meeting wonderful people in the process, and so on.

you're right. What was started in 2003/4 was finished and released. What was started in 66-67 was re-recorded, released, but not finished.  :)

How long did the finishing of BWPS take, actually? I seem to recall that it was an amazingly brief period...

Maybe but I don't think so, it seems to me like something the rest of the Boys always wanted to return to, to "finish" but it just didn't happen.

Thanks, Don.  The SMiLE performance was spectacular and not to have been missed (by me.)  I agree wholeheartedly.  [One of my favorite members in his band is Nelson Bragg who is just fabulous.]  But the actual "tracks" which were not on the original Smiley - such as the "Cantina" version of Heroes and Villains, among others, slowly finding their places on subsequent works or in the context of bonus tracks, appear to have been "reconfigured" for what would work in the performance context. 

Sometimes, as you must know academically, I suspect, one might work on a paper or dissertation and, in the interest of improvement, there is a constant "tweaking" to such an extent that you lose the overall global perspective, to make all the sections "mesh."  And you have to "put is aside" for the sake of your perspective and to live. Brian says this on the video in the thread below.

How many artists (painters and sculptors, etc.) have "trashed or shelved" works/ canvasses considered "masterpieces" by everyone else, because it did not  fit the original vision of the finished product?   

The "performance" can be a "distractor" here.  My perception, which may not be shared, is that a gifted pair (certainly Darien is giften and his young eyes are fresh) and it is said that Van Dyke (whose work on the Popeye movie with the arrangements, was a delight for my kids) worked on this as well.  Not the issue. For me, what I look at is whether the music sections were essentially the same as those recorded by "the Brothers et al" in 1966-7. 

Was the performance sort of a "full circle" thing for Brian?  I hope so. 

First - Was there a marked difference in what "the critics" (persons hired for their opinions, often which established biases) had to say as between the 1967 and 2004 versions?  You bet.  Did it affect the sales and promotion?  Ya.

Second - Were the critics kinder and more enthusiastic, given the time-lapse, to Brian's return to live performance (with the support and advocacy of his wife) and loss of his entire family?  Ya, I think so.  The public was overjoyed to see him in person.

Third - Did these critics bother to "examine thoroughly" the music itself (with the lyric changes,) the tracking sequence and the vocal work done by the Band in the earlier version?  I don't think so, to a larger measure.  Most did not know the difference or distinguish as between the two versions.             

What Brian wrote, to a greater extent was ahead of his time.  This is not unlike the construction of Eiffel Tower, with which almost everyone is familiar.  It was criticized as monstrous, ugly and was to have been taken down after the World's Fair in Paris of 1889, and a petition of protest, was sent to the government to promote its removal after the Fair. Alexandre Dumas was a signatory.  Public opinion does change over time.  People were given the opportunity and took a "second look" at both of these works, and they both became "monuments" of a sort...

We try to teach school kids to think critically and examine carefully and this work is no different.  I hope people carefully examine both works and decide for themselves.     ;)   

1966 - Smile

1967 - Smiley Smile

2004 - Brian Wilson Reimagines Smile

@Filledeplage


And please accept my thanks in return, dear Fille. I see your point about the paper/dissertation quite well, as I am currently entangled in a web of 'overinformation'. Loose threads galore, and no knots in sight yet. I tend to get lost in ideas (esp. when trawling through the extant literature), and the process of kitting it all together is, shall we say, not implemented as we speak. An educated guess tells me that it will take about 37 years before I'll be finished.

Looking back on the positive reception Smile did receive in 2004-2005, and the accolades and the sales and everything else, it didn't strike me at that time just how ahead of its time the music itself must have been to still be current and exciting to the audience some four decades after it was begun! 40 years is a much, much longer time now than it was even in 1966. I do think looking back that for as many people as bought the album because of the music itself I think the whole Smile saga and legend played into it too.

I always thought after first hearing the 66-67 Smile tracks that it was way ahead of its time, by leaps and bounds, and was some of the most stunning music I'd ever heard, still to this day. But if Smile fanatics like me were the only ones buying it in 2004, it wouldn't even have charted.

I have to ask: Does anyone have the most current sales numbers for how many copies of "Brian Wilson Presents Smile" have been sold and/or downloaded?

I seem to recall the BWPS instrumental tracks were recorded over three-four days or something. Less than a week. The band had already toured the show, so it's not like there was a lot of part-learning to do.

The vocals took a couple of months.

To Don and "2002" - Don - Will you be performing your thèse in 37 years? it would be nice to think of 37 years in the future! Better you than me wading through "extant literature." Yikes!

2002 - when I see BWPS - I think of Brian Wilson performing "Pet Sounds Live" not SMiLE - so I think we need to all be careful of the nmemonics and acronyms...that is an interesting concept of sales...it makes me wonder how many of the Smileys were sold since the LP release, and as someone pointed out on BBB recently, in some countries, India I think, there were 78rpm's of songs in the late 60's because that was their still-existing format.  Smiley was "repacked with Wild Honey" in a CD, in the 1990's in the States with some "bonus tracks from "the 66-67 project" - and all the subcontracting labels - foreign to the US might make it difficult to ascertain. Then you have to add in the "downloads" from bonafide vendors.  Who counts? And, is it a valid and trustworthy method?  

It would be interesting to see whether the "Old Greenie Smiley" was equal to or surpassing of the 04 release in terms of sales.  It was in the record stores all those decades.  I suspect that the old version has sold more.  And, I have no basis of valid info, just a hunch.  Maybe AGD knows...     ;)  

What seems strange to me is that with Pet Sounds, there is less of the same discussion about "completion and finality" but for the fans, because of the wide acceptance of this work, it is "complete" for the, although there may have been some "addition and subtraction" of various tracks, which did or did not make the "final cut" but the "sessions" seems to fill all of that out, with the vast amount of tracks from which to select the order and rhythm for the listener.  For most people, we look at it (Pet Sounds) as complete.  At the time, the artist/s may not have thought that way.  No one wants to "amend" it.  We look at it as both perfect and complete.   ;)

Also factor in the reissue in 1974 with Friends that charted at #125.


Tough call - worldwide BWPS is alleged to have sold over a million, but the only source for that statement is Jeff. Certainly it's not been ratified gold in the US yet, but it has gone gold - 200,000 - in the UK. Sales for the 1967 release... no idea. Not spectacular, I'm thinking.


We tend to regard any discussion of wether or not Pet Sounds was finished/completed as fairly pointless, seeing as it was mixed, sequenced, mastered and released. Given that Brian was directly involved in all those processes, and a good few more, I'd hazard that he thought it complete too.

Did I miss something or is the issue of whether or not Pet Sounds is "complete" now being discussed?

Color me: confused.  :)

Thanks Andrew for the prompt response...I mentioned Pet Sounds only because there seemed to be discussion of Sloop John B included...at some point or another...I did not know that Smiley was coupled with Friends, so it may be speculative to count...but, that said, it seemed as if everyone I knew (not all strong BB fans) had a Smiley and the reason may have been purely economic.  

A "single" at the time was about a $1.00/US and an album was about $3.00, and with two "name"  singles such as Good Vibrations and Heroes and Villains, it was smarter to pay $3.00 and get 11/12 songs than try to scrounge around with paying $1.00 for each single, and have the music in one place. Good Vibrations was such a huge hit that it seems that it would have been a draw for that album sale, even if was released a little while later.  

That would have been baby-sitting money before any of us had "real jobs" paying $1.35 an hour, which was the minimum wage at the time!  Beach Boys tickets sold for $3, 4 and 5 for the best seats!  That is just as a frame of reference... ;)

Thanks again for the response.      

Totally spurious reasoning: "GV" was certified gold - that is, 1,000,000 units sold - on December 21st 1966, and the chart life of "H&V" was over the week before Smiley Smile charted. I'm willing to wager that the people who bought the album (and at a peak of #41, there probably weren't many of them) bought it because they were BB fans, not due to any economic consideration. Everyone who bought the album would have had the singles already.

Brian did have a full album concept at the time - just look at the track listing submitted to Capitol.  His concept was to make an album with those 12 tracks, and that would have been smile.  OK, some were unfinished, and some kept changing so as to be unfinishable (Heroes) at the time.  But in December 1966 there was most definitely an album concept.

I've always wondered what would have happened if after Van Dyke left in December, Brian had gone to Mike and asked his help to finish the songs.  Like He Gives Speeches was transformed to She's Goin' Bald, what would Mike have done with Child is Father to the Man, rewrites of Cabinessence and Surf's Up, finishing I'm in Great Shape.  I suspect Mike would have lightened the lyrics and injected more of the stoned humor of Smiley into the project (the humor aspect is something Brian always talked about with Smile but never pursued with much seriousness - Vegetables, Barnyard, parts of Heroes - that's about it for humor, isn't it?).  I think it may have been great - a kind of mixture of Smile and Smiley, with light and dark, seriousness and goofiness, which is more his original concept anyway.

"Spurious" is sort of harsh...45's were rather inconvenient to play...on those old machines, you needed a plastic adapter to play on an LP player and you only got 3 or so minutes...so getting the LP was more convenient and there may have been duplication but for convenience, it was worth it.  Not all fans were as "narrow minded" so as to purchase only BB music;  they also were buying Rolling Stones, Beatles, Buffalo Springfield, etc. 

People did not usually carry around 45's in those geeky cases at that point.  Pet Sounds and Rubber Soul seemed to change the landscape as it were, for the "portability thing" - it was the "themed" work that was "in."

And, the LP "under your arm" was a "statement" of sorts. 

to "2002" my thoughts were confined to an artistic standard that is sometimes very hard to achieve and the artists' difficult refinement process to get to their "vision."

 

 

Not harsh at all - I'm stating facts (far more people bought "GV" on a 45 than did on an LP, and that goes for any classic single of the 60s), you're proposing a theory that is, to be polite about it, as watertight as the proverbial colander.  By your reasoning, in the 60s, everyone should have shunned the single releases and bought the albums the songs were on instead, because it made financial sense. Small, inconvenient fact: they didn't. The music industry was overwhelmingly single-based until the late 60s. Economics had nothing to do with it.

I agree with Mr. Doe - singles and the Top 40 radio market were the undisputed kings of the music business for pop artists in 1966-67 and well into the 1980's. THE emphasis was on the single, which would go to the radio stations, which would be heard by listeners, and those listeners would head to the store to buy that song they heard on the radio on a 45rpm single.

It cannot be underestimated how important the single was at that time, and it is also was caused someone like Brian Wilson in 1965 and 1966 (especially) to rush his latest single mix "hot off the press" to someone like Ron Jacobs at KHJ who would voice over something like "KHJ exclusive..." to prevent pirating, and get the song on the air.

For the record I have my original copy of Sloop John B. b/w You're So Good To Me which the original owner bought at JC Penney for the grand total of 67 cents. Price tag is still on the sleeve. And in my own record buying experiences, singles up to 1986 or so which I'd buy after hearing them on 80's Top 40 radio averaged one dollar, when albums were pushing 7-9 bucks.

Take any survey from the years 1967 or 1966, go through the top 50 songs of the year, and try to pick out the "classic album" it came from. It's usually impossible. Singles came first, if they were on an album it was often months after the single had been popular on the radio.

But would Brian have had to have asked Mike for any lyrical contributions?  Other than to change lyrics to make Mike happy?  It seems that the songs listed (if we are to take that list as probable, if not definite) all had lyrics by the end of '66.  I don't see his needing Van around as being for lyric writing, but rather support. 

Andrew - at no time did I suggest that Good Vibrations was not a huge 45 hit as a "single"  It was. However, it was often viewed as a "starter" toward a new album.  If you were lucky you could get the album, at the time time the 45's were released.  That would be Pet Sounds, released in May of 1966, with Sloop John B, released a little earlier, and Wouldn't It Be Nice, later.  If you bought the album, it obviated the need to buy the single.

45's did start to see a decline at that time in the US as albums became more in vogue.  

They were not EP with more music as they were in Europe and were designed to fit in jukeboxes.  It was also a time when Americans were buying stereos to replace Hi-Fi's as they were buying color TV's.  And it did make financial sense, to buy a Rubber Soul album rather than the singles which might hold 7 minutes here, as opposed to 15 minutes in Europe.  

You might buy an album, if you liked the single, even if it meant duplication.  There was also the influence of the films and the movie scores being released on LP's, such as Dr. Zhivago, The Sound of Music, which just re-released with much fanfare, as well as the Disney albums, such as Mary Poppins.  

Lots of children's records were on 45 rpm, and kids would have a kiddie record player with a built in adapter, and record case, but no self-respecting teens or college students were lugging around a case of 45's which played 3 minutes a side.   They might buy a 45 single as a "base" but, if they liked the artist, they would buy the album.    

And, it was a cultural shift in the States, as 45 cases went out with high-button shoes.  There is an interesting section on Elvis' records on 78 rpm because of the equipment that the families owned in several parts of the country.  There is also a section distinguishing the 45 in the States and in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record  

There are some visuals of what 45's looked like.  

p.s.  I still have my copy of Sloop as well as "The Little Girl I Once Knew" (my first BB record) in the original sleeve.  And they did go to the radio stations, as a single and on jukeboxes, but it was my experience that if people could guy an album, that is what they did.  I suppose we can debate it, as long as it is not "hostile" - and there are differences as between the States and Europe.  We did not have EP format.  The 45's might have lasted longer in that format.   

Well he asked him to rewrite He Gives Speeches apparently.  Mike had objected to the lyrics of Cabinessence and Surf's Up, and since those songs were now too controversial, they probably would have either been dropped (as they were from Smiley) or Mike might have rewritten some of the lyrics.  It's hard to imagine partially rewriting Surf's Up - although columnated ruins domino was the phrase that particularly irked Mike, maybe he would have substituted some boy-girl love phrase or surfing terminology there :).  I think Mike would have accepted Cabinessence without the over and over the crow cries line.  Child is father would probably have gotten some Hey Little Tomboy or I Wanna Pick You Up style lyrics, greatly improving the song.

Care to explain why, then, enough people bought the 45 of "WIBN" to push it into the Top 10 while Pet Sounds was still in the LP Top 40 - that's my point.  And where your proffered theory falls down.

It's called fandom - you buy the singles and the albums: that the casual BB fans apparently passed on Smiley Smile very shortly after they'd almost put "H&V" into the Top 10 is hugely significant.

Andrew - I cannot explain why others do what they do.  I can only tell you what I observed in the US as a teen then as a college student, at those respective times.  By the time, Wouldn't It Be Nice was released, I had the album, and did not need to waste my money.   I was saving up for my first concert!

Any more than you can explain the need to release the "Best of" Volume One, (which I bought, to build my LP collection) only weeks after Pet Sounds was released.  There are lots of mysteries in this musical odyssey.   :love

Ah, c'mon, that's silly. Mike wouldn't have been singing the line in question on Surf's Up, so there would have been no issue. After all he DID sing the "Chi-chi-child: father of the man, man, father of the man" part on the released version without any reported incident. I think we all make too much of him asking VDP what the "crow cries" line meant. Being asked to sing the line, the guy had every right to ask.

I agree with Andrew here. My brother who is 9 years older than myself had all the Beach Boys 45s right through Good Vibrations, but did not start buying their LPs until 1965, when he got his first job. That all stopped with Pet Sounds. Except for WIBN/GOK and Sloop John B. he and his friends were not overly receptive to the album and their change in direction. From Heroes & Villains onward the buying of Beach Boys records fell into my hands and wallet. Though I owned 8-Track versions of Wild Honey, Friends and 20/20, I never heard Smiley Smile until I bought the Brother/Reprise 2-fer LP in 1974 or 1975. Except for Friends, I did not hear the other two (Christmas and Birthday gifts) until like 1970 or so. Like most teenage kids, LPs were a bit costly to buy with meager allowance money, but 45s at 69 cents were much more affordable. The only Boys' 45 that I did not buy was the Friends/Little Bird. My last 45 was Break Away until 1976 and Rock and Roll Music was released. By 1971 I had a part time job and money to start buying albums.

No problem - Capitol were very concerned that Brian was way overdue with a proper new album (I doubt they considered Party ! as anything except a stop-gap), so they started compiling a best of. Pet Sounds was mastered on April 16th - I doubt that Capitol in 1966 could conceive and execute such a compilation in under 10 weeks (although it could explain the bizarre track selection !).

I agree, and he sang the infamous "crow" lines as well.  I am not a Mike Love fan, though I respect his right as a human and I do think he is funny sometimes, as well as having some good vocal and lyrical moments, but he certainly had a right to ask WTF?  One of the major things about Smile is that it seems Van and Brian copped out, they folded, they weren't willing or able to defend/explain/follow through with what they were doing.   It was their and our loss.

There is no proof of this, but I do have to clarify that statement and assume this is from your own experiences at that time. The 45 rpm format was alive and well into the 1980's, and I can attest to that having bought 45rpm records after hearing them on my Philly local station Hot Hits 98, whose format was as influential to FM Top 40 at that time as a station like KHJ's "Boss Radio" format had been for AM radio in 1966. Many of the 45's were also being packaged in picture sleeves just like the old days, and I remember friends of mine bringing a stack of 45's over to listen.

You'd hear a song on Hot Hits 98, then at the stores they'd have the surveys above the record racks where the songs could be bought on 45's, and it was great if you didn't know the full title or artist. KHJ pioneered the tight format of the "Boss 30" weekly survey which directed which singles received the most airplay, and the Hot Hits format in the 80's copied that formula and rode a few years of incredible ratings until about 1986 when the music business changed.

I will say, having listened to as many of the airchecks from stations like KHJ and KRLA that I can find, that Sgt. Pepper was THE game-changer as far as playing album tracks alongside the singles. From summer of 67 forward, the DJ's would play Beatles album tracks alongside the singles, so you'd hear KRLA play "Blue Jay Way" in Dec 1967 or "Within You Without You" in summer 67. But it was still a singles-driven market.

We're talking about the time in which Smile was being readied for release had it been released, and the 45 rpm single was the main format for the intended audience for pop music, which was kids under 18 especially those in high school. Again, the game changed after Sgt. Pepper but singles and 45's were the bread-and-butter of the industry.

Which must explain why Brian put so much time, effort, money, and thought into the singles GV and H&V. Not because he was confused or unsure but because this was the best foot forward.

The only way it might have worked was if Brian, Darian, VDP and the band recorded all the instrumental and lead vocals....bringing in Mike, Bruce and Al simply to record backing vox and harmonies. No artistic involvement.

Best guess is that Mike is a bit pissed off that SMiLE was a critical and commercial success....but it is just a guess. At least he's saying favourable comments about it now.

Not only the best foot forward but also the standard practice at the time, and essentially the way it worked in the record business in pop music at that time. This was before Pepper, before FM radio took hold, all of that stuff. The single, the radio airplay, the 45 RPM format, and the requisite television appearances to promote that single were the way it was done, and where the focus was directed.

What Cam said is also the reason why something exists resembling a final mix and single edit of Heroes done prior to the "Smiley" version, and how it was possible to include the Cantina version of Heroes on the two-fer releases. There was simply more focus and energy on getting a single mixed and ready to release than there was all the legends of extended "part 2" mixes and test edits and all of that, and why that "Cantina" version of Heroes even exists as a final mixdown which would have been timed for 45 pressings and radio airplay. That single was a major focus.

The FM influence you mention was a huge factor...it was a forum for anti-war discussion, in the US, and there were many obscure FM stations which almost overnight became very popular with young people and which featured "album play" with discussion in between as opposed to the top 40 hit parade.  Someone mentioned Breakaway as their last single and I think that was probably mine as well.

What was surprising as I recall is that the FM radio was playing a lot of Holland/Carl and the Passions, after its release, but not the girlie-car-surf earlier 1960's work.  And they were "critically appreciative" in a way you might not hear on AM radio of the newer work. 

It was shocking (pleasantly) to hear Smiley and less well known Pet Sounds stuff, on FM alongside "I Heard it through the Grapevine," while shopping the boutiques in Harvard Square. That is around '68-'69.   

This is getting to be a hot discussion and I think it is important to sort of identify what continent you are on, because not only did the technology change, and the record companies responded with appropriate versions, for each particular market.  EP's would have been great, but LP's became sort of an "identity" thing for young people and particular kids in high school and college, particularly in the Woodstock era.   ;)     

"There was simply more focus and energy on getting a single mixed and ready to release than there was all the legends of extended "part 2" mixes and test edits and all of that, and why that "Cantina" version of Heroes even exists as a final mixdown which would have been timed for 45 pressings and radio airplay. That single was a major focus."

Yep, I agree. Not that my personal experience counts for much but my family didn't even have anything we could play an album on until Christmas 1967. I bought singles, still, long after I was also buying albums. The single was king in my experience.

Re. "part 2" mixes: I think more and more that "part 2" must have been a b-side of the SMiLE-era H&V single and that it was intended to be a sort of sampler of the SMiLE album. If so, you would have a homage to the album on the single. Has anyone ever heard of something like that being done before then? Can anyone comfirm or deny that there is indeed a never released side B sampler of PS for a PS era single sitting in the vault?

Of course, why worry about PS? 
They did it anyway with WYW, correct? No H&V Pt 2, but an invite into Smile/Smiley, nonetheless. 

I mentioned in my earlier post my radio station of choice in the 80's was Hot Hits 98 WCAU in Philadelphia, I speak strictly of the US market and have done research on US Top 40 radio of the 60's and 80's - I know little or nothing of the UK or European radio or record markets and how the business was run there.

It's ironic that Harvard Square is mentioned because when I lived in Boston (Back Bay - Mass Ave) we'd also go there to browse the record stores! We'd take the Green Line from Hynes and eventually get to the Red Line at Harvard Square and browse the record and CD stores - great times! Bought some great music there.

I was 10 years old in 1966, and I could not afford to buy albums.  Everyone I knew was buying 45s well into the early '70s.  Heck, many bands were still releasing songs on 45s only (until they were put on later greatest hits releases) into the 70's.  

I think that Mike probably wasn't fond of the Smile material.  I don't think he liked Good Vibrations all that much until he put his lyrics in there and it went to #1.  Most of the Smile stuff was recorded in 1966.  1966.  This music was way ahead of it's time in 1966.  Nobody was doing stuff like Cabinessence or Wonderful or Surf's Up in 1966.  Yes, Mike did sing well on everything that we've heard from those sessions, all of the guys did.  That was their job, and they did it well.  But this music was such a far cry from stuff that they'd recorded just a year before.  I think, though, that the success of Good Vibrations (and Strawberry Fields Forever and other 'forward thinking' music of the day) showed the boys that you could have success with that type of material.  So, by spring of '67 I think he did want Brian to finish the album.  They'd put an awful lot of time and money into the project, and you know that they had heard all of the 'buzz' surrounding the album.  Yeah, I think they all (eventually) wanted Smile to be released.  All, of course, except Brian.

"Of course, why worry about PS?  
They did it anyway with WYW, correct? No H&V Pt 2, but an invite into Smile/Smiley, nonetheless."

Well, maybe - but what I'm saying is: it seems to me that H&V Part 2 was a homage to SMiLE as a sampler of the album. All tracks based on a part of an album track but altered to be not identical to the album - ie. all from the album but in a different key, or different mood, different instrumentation, some minor adjustment from the actual album track it was referencing. Right, or is it just me?

The so far uncorroborated PS sampler side B because it would show a precedent/intention of using a patchwork of samples of album tracks as a B side of a single.

Yes!  It was/is a very cool area!  My first BB tix came from the Out of Town News (Ticket) kiosque at Harvard Square where they had daily newspapers and magazines from all over the world in all those languages and had "real" tickets.  I would go after school on the day they went on sale ( I should have "played hooky" from school because I worried all day staring out the window at school, that all the "good" seats would be gone.) 

But as a ticket dealer, they had great seats and then afterwards to go to a place called "Bailey's" ( a local ice cream parlor and candy chain) for a sundae, where the hot  fudge (or butterscotch) and marshmallow dripped onto a little silver-plated tray. 

And, yes, on the "Red Line!"  We are buried now under about a foot and a half of snow!  Time to take Carl's advice and start "Goin' South for the Winter..."    ;)

HA!
45 years later, you want to invent the possibility that Brian was thinking about a Smilish sampler intro to an LP, to be issued on a 45, before he ever thought of doing Smile, and  this intro would be for Pet Sounds. 
"So far uncorroborated" my butt. 
When Brian first began writing songs he was really thinking about how he was going to be able to meld his then-current musical ideas into the Dumb Angel project which he wouldn't start for some years. This is , THO, "So far uncorroborated"

"Uncorroborated" as in 'non existent', maybe ?  ;D

Possibly, that's why I keep asking if anyone else has seen this. This BE told to me by this researcher who used to BE highly regarded and had even BEen in the tape vaults; so I'm curious if anyone else can say whether it BE or not BE, that BE the question.

We got off track somewhere, the supposed PS B-side sampler was supposedly for like the GOK single and was supposedly a collection of PS recordings intended presumably to promote PS. Allegedly. Anybody? Anybody?

Anyway, now we have more witness that H&V single was indeed to cover the A & B sides and we have always had the evidence that the H&V 2 tracks had there own master number which ran concurrent with the H&V master number and we have always known that the H&V Part2 tracks are snippets of other SMiLE tracks but somewhat rejiggered. Am I off-base or over stating any of that? Correction welcome.

Even if the PS sampler B-side for a PS single turns out to be false it still leaves the H&V Part 2 tracks as SMiLE album samples with there separate master number and reported intention of an H&V with an A and B side in my view.

Cam... I've been part of this mad whirl since summer 1975... active 'researcher' since 1977... and this is the very first I've ever heard of anything like this. I think you've BEen had.  ;D

I think you might BE right.

I'm still wondering what BEcame of those Smile photo reprints!  :-D

I just remember Chuck Britz saying something about a H&V part 2 for a B-Side, and Chuck was usually reliable as anyone but as soon as Brian carried the tapes out of there Chuck wasn't involved in the inner workings of what would be released.

I'm thinking hard and I know there may be others, but the only example I can think of which sounds like this B-Side "promo" for pet Sounds is a super-rare Paul McCartney promo that he sent to radio stations to promote Ram in '71. If I remember it was a string of album cut previews mixed in with McCartney talking about the record so DJ's could play it, I guess, similar to any radio ad. If my memory is right that would sound incredibly close to the Pet Sounds thing.

Maybe the Pet Sounds deal was intended for radio stations and not a release to the public? Assuming it did exist of course.

Don't feel bad, though. You're not the first to have BEen had. Merely another numBEr in a long list of numBErs.

Yup...he BEen lyin' :lol

OK, here is what I was told for what it is worth: The Capitol 5706 single was originally to be GOK on the A side with a 5 minute 23 second medley of Pet Sounds tracks as the B side and that the master tape of the medley still existed [1999] in Capitol's vault and was assembled on June 29 1966.

Anyone with knowledge of Capitol's tape vault ever seen or heard this?

A 5 minute 23 second single side... in early 1966 ?  As a sampler for an album that had been in the racks for well over a month by the time it was allegedly assembled, and which album was already beginning to slip back down the charts ?

Anyone see a small degree of illogic here ? :o

I'm not seeing a logic problem, PS was still on its way up to its Billboard peak [July 2] at the time.

If it did exist, it seems that it was decided within a couple of weeks to go with WIBN anyway because WIBN was already showing up on radio station's boss picks in mid-July. If it did exist, I'm wondering if it might have been a Capitol staff comp rather than a Brian comp. If.

FWIW Cam, I think the theory of Heroes part 2 as a Smile sampler is one of the more interesting I've heard on this board. As a concept, Brian constructing a B side that is ostensibly the Heroes riff but refracted through the key Smile songs is a beautiful one and if you listen to some of the purported 'Part 2' fragments there's a good foundation for your theory: Heroes Intro is Fire in miniature, Swedish Frog is a microcosm of the barnyard elements, and so on. More interestingly for me, it would explain the sheer repetitiveness of the potential Part 2 pieces (all those "The Heroes, The Heroes" sections have always seemed odd to me; more like the product of a speed-addled mind than genius at work, and seemingly far less artful than most of the Smile material), but if they were to be intercut with small samplers for the album it makes more sense: A sort of reinforcement of the identity of the song ("The Heroes, The Heroes, don't forget listener: this is H&V b-side, not an incoherent mish-mash of unrelated songs!") despite the apparently unrelated fragments interspersed throughout: Intro, Swedish Frog, All Day etc.

I also think some of those H&V pt. 2 pieces were meant to be overdubbed on top of the foundational work of H&V...been thinking about it a lot. If we take H&V from Smiley and then use that as a basis for what Brian was going for, but add some of the more complex parts on top of the chant, then we may have a more definitive rather than stripped down version of what Brian was hearing...still have mixed feelings about the Baldwin overdub during the chant....

But I don't think we can take the Smiley version of H&V as a basis for much of anything except the version he eventually released after Smiley had begun. Not to detract from the Smiley take, but the fact that a fully edited, mixed, and sequenced version from the time when Smile sessions were going full-speed ahead exists might be more of an indication that the "In The Cantina" version was more of that basis.

That "In The Cantina" mix has not only the surprise/humor element which what Brian's whole trip for Smile, but also the radical sound effects (tape explosion/distortion), the musical effects (French Horn overblowing), the general pulse and drive of the track which was closer to the production feel of Good Vibrations, and a moment of sheer beauty (the whole In The Cantina middle section, which is stunning as a standalone piece of music).

Remember the Anderle and Vosse interviews where they both said several times how the final Heroes version (Smiley) left out some brilliant sections of music? And also how those two dropped hints about how they'd ask Brian to play them mixes of certain Smile sections again and again because they were just so into the music? They were remembering these detailed things several years or more after hearing them, and at that point not many outside that circle had heard them. That's the earlier Heroes for one, and I don't know if the released version was as close to the core of the Smile theme as those earlier mixes, which I think are brilliant.

I take what we call H&V part 2 as a natural continuation of Good Vibrations, the modular songwriting format that made Good Vibrations so innovative provided Brian had the time to cobble together just the right combination and sequence of sections to create a compelling record. The "Cantina" Heroes mix was close, so close, and he held in his bag of tricks a full selection of tape segments which he could fly in and out of song forms at will, again provided he had the time and the focus and which he really didn't have after that initial October-February burst of activity.

So we get a string of available segments instead of a sequenced piece, although I think the compilation of those segments was compelling enough after the fact to stand as a track by itself! Ahhhhh...the irony.

A 5 minute Pet Sounds medley? The promo film comes to mind, but I guess that was done earlier.

My theory is there was at least another version of H&V after the "cantina", based on there being additional H&V recordings post that mix.

The master for H&V side/part 2 was presumably to include that which was i.d.ed as for Part/Side 2 master, maybe some additional material hard to say. My guess is both parts/sides were finished in March and they together were what was thereafter heard/discussed as the [one of?] 5 or 6 minute H&V.

There is the objection that Brian said in February that he wasn't sure and didn't want to give away too much of SMiLE on the single. That might have meant the OMP fade which he included in the H&V mix or it might have meant what he had done so far for H&V Part 2, both sampled SMiLE at the time. My theory could fly in the face of that if he meant Part 2 except, Brian began recordings that would give away SMiLE on Part 2 in January and he resumed recordings which would give away SMiLE in Part 2 in later February. It seems to me this leave room for Brian to have started Part 2 as a SMiLE sampler, then Feb. he's not sure and stops, then presumably changes his mind and resumes sampling SMiLE for Part 2. Or he might have meant he didn't want to give away too much with H&V side 1 but that wouldn't make as much sense to me.

smile shop lives!

Just a few posts earlier I said this:
That "In The Cantina" mix has not only the surprise/humor element which what Brian's whole trip for Smile, but also the radical sound effects (tape explosion/distortion), the musical effects (French Horn overblowing), the general pulse and drive of the track which was closer to the production feel of Good Vibrations, and a moment of sheer beauty (the whole In The Cantina middle section, which is stunning as a standalone piece of music).

I think it makes perfect sense. Heroes And Villains, the "Cantina" mix, is a microcosm of the full Smile album. Especially, specifically, and emphatically the kind of humor leading to enlightenment or humor leading to beauty trip which Vosse described so well in the Fusion article. It's all there in a few minutes, from the new production tricks to the modular songwriting, from the humor to the Old West travelogue, finally to the beauty of a melody over delicate chords contrasted with jarring discordant and non-melodic voices.

Everything in Brian's then-current bag of tricks as a producer and songwriter which he wanted to use for Smile might be found in that Heroes mix if you listen for it.

Makes perfect sense to me if Brian thought he put all his eggs in one basket, in the form of a single like Heroes versus a full album.

In that case I don't believe the sampler notion at all, and the "not wanting to give away too much" of the album statement fits well with that Heroes Cantina mixdown.

Yes

Yep, I see your point. I just am looking at it from a more literal angle, as direct quotes from the album tracks. To me Part 2 is that literal, it is all and only [as far as we know] direct quotes from other album tracks but with a twist that gives them their own identity as H&V Part 2 apart from the album track from which they are sampled. That and more Part 2 sessions are post the cantina mix, so whatever happened to or after cantina, Part 2 happened also. I just suspect that the H&V [part/side1] sessions following cantina mix altered it some way we might be able to guess at if we knew what was recorded -and- Part 2 happened also in those post-cantina sessions which we know are samples of album tracks. Anyway, I lost my point and I'm repeating myself - so...............[wanders off]

This goes back to the old smileshop, I think, but the sampler theory went like this:

Brian made a statement to a reporter that he had made the final mix of Heroes the night before but didn’t know what to put on the other side of the single. From this statement we know that a) Heroes at that time only covered one side of the 45 so not yet a two sided single and, b) Heroes was short enough to fit on only one side (probably around 3 minutes, maybe a little longer?)

About a month later Mike plays a tape to a reporter of Heroes that is 5 to 6 minutes long.

So during that month the composition and recording of the second side of the two sided single took place. So what was recorded then?

Well the article where Brian makes the statement about mixing Heroes came out in mid February ’67 and I believe the safety copy tape is dated February 10th 1967, I’d need to look it up. The Mike article is from late March so the second side of Heroes was recorded between those dates.

There were five tracking dates between that time for Heroes (the only smile track still being worked on): February 15th, 27th, 28th, and March 1st and 2nd all at Western. Van Dyke Parks was back working on the project again and is heard on the session tapes helping to work out the new sections. Four track sections were produced from these sessions:

“Prelude to Fade” (the country and western theme)
“Fade to Heroes and Villains”
“Intro to Heroes and Villains” (from the GV Boxset)
“Heroes and Villains Side 2” (the Bicycle Rider theme with the heavy bass and percussion, this became the chorus for the Smiley version of Heroes)

There were also several vocal sessions between Feb 15th and March 2nd but they do not appear to have been heard. So going from just the tracks you’d have about 2 minutes of music. If added to the end of the Heroes 3 minute single the whole thing would last about 5 to 6 minutes.

The sampler idea is that each of those four sections quotes a different song from Smile:
“Prelude to Fade” is the verse of Heroes and Villains
“Fade to Heroes and Villains” is the last section of The Old Master Painter
“Intro to Heroes and Villains” The Elements? It sounds like the fire track a little
“Heroes and Villains Side 2” is the chorus of Do You Like Worms but in a key that works with Heroes (Heroes in C#, Worms chorus in C, but HaV Side 2 is in G#)

Each one of these sections would then have had Heroes adapted lyrics recorded over the top of them in the way that “Bicycle Rider just see what you’ve done” became “Heroes and Villains just see what you’ve done.” During the session for “Prelude to Fade” Brian and Van discuss lyrics to be recorded over that section of music so that adds weight to this idea.

This also explains why Brian is re-recording sections of preexisting songs, in the case of the Fade an exact duplicate, 3 to 4 months after the original was completed all under the title of HaV and at the end of two months of Heroes sessions.

That’s what I remember of that idea. I may have saved those threads off the bravenet board so I’ll look to see if I can find any other info on this stuff. I also remember hearing about the rumored Pet Sounds sampler but it may have been from the same erroneous source.

OK, in my theory you keep track of what is for what by the master number so sessions relevant to the final SMiLE single are 57020 for the part/side 1 of H&V and 57045 for the part/side 2 of H&V.

So for part 1 there are several sessions beginning on Dec 19 1966 unless someone has earlier documentation for  #57020.

Part 2 is:

Jan 5: DYLW sample [labeled "Side 2"]
Feb 27: something recorded at Western with 4 musicians including Gene Estes
Feb 28: "Fade out" - The re-recorded more sombre? OMP fade with Carl's vocal
March 1: "Intro" - Fire sample
March 2: "Insert" - something recorded at Western by 5 musicians and Hal Blaine

I suppose some of the vocal sessions were probably for Part 2 also but I don't have any documentation. I was supposed to BE getting whatever was available once but it never happened.

The Feb 15 "prelude to fade" would be on 57020 Part 1 in my theory.

What tracks associated with H&V have that flappy sounding thingy or kind of like a baseball card in your bike spokes?

Great post , thanks for this info.

So it's not too much of a stretch to suppose the 5/6 min H&V might have had roughly the following structure:

a1. Heroes Cantina mix up to tape explosion
a2. Prelude to Fade
a3. Fade re-record with Carl's vocals

b1. Heroes Intro
b2. Do You Like Worms chorus
b3. ?

What could've followed the Worms section - perhaps another fade? What would the part 2 fade have been: Tag to Part 1 (The Do A Lot variation)? Barnyard?

Where do Gee and the "Dit Dit Dit heroes & Villains" variations & Swedish Frog fit into all this? Gee has always sounded like an intro and I've never managed to reconcile it with the Heroes Intro. When were Gee etc. recorded? Could they have usurped some of the part 2 recording mentioned above?

Sorry to reply to and quote my own post, but just considering my previous question:

If Heroes Part 2 at an early stage consisted of Heroes Intro and the minor key bicycle Rider theme, how does this fit with the other pieces that were apparently recorded for part 2 of H&V, i.e. Gee, Swedish Frog and the major key bike rider theme variations? The biggest curiosity for me is that there were potentially two intro pieces for Part 2: Heroes Intro (the whistles & bells one) and Gee. I know there's no evidence for Gee being the intro to Part 2 but it certainly sounds like an opener.

Not sure if the dates back this up, but could it be that Gee, Swedish Frog and the major key bike rider variations replaced the initial Part 2 sections, i.e. Heroes Intro and Minor Key bike rider section? Perhaps as a direct result of Brian deciding to use the minor key bike rider section as part of the main H&V single, rather than as part of the b-side?

First, consider the theory that the Heroes "Intro" was nothing more than a mistake in naming the piece, because even in the years since it showed up that way on the box set it's been more accepted that it was a part of the Fire element much more than any part of Heroes, down to the key and the general flow of the tune. As much as even the most arcane or tuneless fragments labeled "Heroes" still seem to share a common texture or mood or whatever, that "Intro" piece simply fits better with Fire than anything on heroes, and that includes Swedish Frog too!

With the keys, and major or minor, part of that piece I re-posted in the Smile Jigsaw thread mentions how some of the chords fit into a bigger scheme. For example, Brian in several places throughout Smile does a ii-V chord riff or motif, one great example is Bicycle Rider. Those chords can be looked at in context of what harmonies surround them, and where if anywhere specific do they resolve.

If you hear a song like Santana's "Evil Ways", it's a ii-V jam tune, and in that case it's a modal minor sound, based on the Dorian mode. It's heard as a minor-modal song. If you hear Bicycle Rider, in the context of "Do You Like Worms", it's the same ii-V chord progression (G minor to C), but in the case of Worms it's in the context of a piece written in F major. G minor to C major, within the key of F major, is the strongest resolution of chords in a jazz harmony context. The ii-V is the building block of jazz harmony, and if you see a G minor to C major phrase eventually leading to F major, that phrase would be analyzed as a ii-V in F major rather than a standalone minor key or modal progression.

If there is a piece like Bicycle Rider which is G minor to C major, it would not fit nor would it resolve into the key of Heroes which is C#. I cannot remember, did Brian do Bicycle Rider in another key to fit Heroes as well, or did he simply graft the G minor version from Worms onto a comp reel of some kind that became "Part 2"? I'm thinking he raised the key at some point to take it out of Worms.

Hi Guitar Fool,

Thanks for the chord info. I play guitar but my theory is terrible so it is always interesting to hear the more theoretical perspective on the Smile music.

The bicycle rider section was rerecorded in a key compatible with Heroes and this is probably most easily demonstrated by taking a listen to Heroes Sections from the GV boxset - there are two bike rider sections, one with lone piano, and the other with train-like percussion (which I think was later used as a backing track on the H&V 45 but may be mistaken). They obviously sit very comfortably within H&V's key of C#.

Heroes Intro I was certain was a Heroes, not Elements, track but couldn't remember why I'd reached this conclusion other than from what I've read here. However, I see Bicycle Rider is asserting in another currently active thread that the session material places Heroes Intro very much as a H&V track and that its association with Fire stems from the two pieces being erroneously tacked together by David Leaf in 88. Imo it actually doesn't sound especially out of place when grouped with the moodier Heroes sections such as the Bike Rider theme - especially as it's bells and whistles remind me of some sort of runaway train. I think if we didn't have a complete edit of Cabinessence, we might struggle to reconcile the Home On The Range sections with Who Ran The Iron Horse - Brian was doing all sorts of discordant couplings at that point and I believe Heroes Intro was quite typical of this.

First, consider the theory that the Heroes "Intro" was nothing more than a mistake in naming the piece, because even in the years since it showed up that way on the box set it's been more accepted that it was a part of the Fire element much more than any part of Heroes, down to the key and the general flow of the tune. As much as even the most arcane or tuneless fragments labeled "Heroes" still seem to share a common texture or mood or whatever, that "Intro" piece simply fits better with Fire than anything on heroes, and that includes Swedish Frog too!




[/quote]

Nice theory, but it's wrong - it is NOT "accepted" that the Heroes intro was a part of the Fire element, it clearly was   recorded as Heroes intro and was logged as a "Heroes Part Two" session, this in early March when Brian was working on the final mixes of the 2 parted single.  He recorded overdubs on the Intro to Heroes and that too was still titled "Intro to Heroes" so the chance it would be mislabeled twice is nonexistent.  You're not alone in thinking it goes well with Fire, but then Prayer goes better before Worms then before the cold opening of Heroes (cantina mix), but does that mean that's where it belongs?  In your personal mix perhaps, but ascribing an intention of Brian's to put something clearly recorded and labeled as Intro to Heroes as part of Fire in 1967 has absolutely no basis.  David Leaf put it before Fire without any input from Brian when the Smile tapes were looked at for a possible release in 1988.

As for the two parted single - the article where Mike plays the 5 or 6 minute single to a reporter was in June, right after the Monterey Pop Festival.  That's three months plus after Part 1/cantina was mixed, not one month.  But it seems all work on the Smile 2 sided version ceased after March from the recording record. 

Not all sections recorded as "Part 2" would necessarily have ended up as the side two single - for example, the Bicycle Rider Worms chorus.  That was recorded in January and probably was to be part of the A side, as it appears to be edited in with the familiar verses of the cantina version on the SOT mix attempts.  It was likely rejected as it then did not appear on the cantina version in February - AND Brian subsequently recorded what would be the chorus of the Smiley single as a "Part 2" section, so that the Worms chorus was no longer needed. 

July 8th 1967 is the date of the report... and Mike played the reporter a tape, not a single acetate, which lasted six minutes. Mike also stated "there are about six different tapes of this number about and now it is just a matter of selecting the right one". So... Mike didn't play anyone a 5-6 minute two-part single, he played one of half a dozen different tapes, which happened to last six minutes. No mention of two sides by anyone in the report. Them's the facts.

Well, if that 5-6 minute version was to be the single, then it would have to be 2 sided, wouldn't it? 

But you're right, he doesn't mention two sides.

As for the side two being a Smile "sampler" - I think the explanation is much more straightforward and easy than that.  In constructing Part 2 of Heroes, Brian was ransacking ideas from other songs he had been working on.  Just as he took Barnshine to end Part 1/the cantina version.  Was Part 1 also a "sampler" because it used a section from another song?  No, Brian was just using sections to knit together a Heroes "suite" like he did for Good Vibrations.  And what sections labeled Part 2 are parts of other songs?  Besides the remake of Barnshine as the tag for Part 2 (already in Part 1), and the Heroes and Villains chorus recycling the Bicycle Rider of Worms (in a different key), that's about it.  This hardly a "sampler" makes.  Sometimes we overthink things, and it's really simpler than we want it to be.  And if Brian wanted as much of Smile to be a surprise as possible, why would he do a "sampler" on the Bside?  When he said he wanted as much to be a surprise as possible and didn't know what he was going to do on the Bside, he mentioned he might do something with just him and the piano.  Again, not really consistent with the sampler theory.  Could be he was referring to the piano version of the Bicycle Rider theme.

Now for the Pet sounds sampler/medley - I have no clue if it exists or not.  A strange idea if it's true.  I'd think that might be something appropriate for a promo single rather than a commercial release.

 ;D

Two words: Occam's Razor.

But consider this:

Where is that so-called "Intro" piece on Brian Wilson's own "personal mix" of Smile, the Grammy winning mix we call BWPS? Not mine, but Brian's?

It appears AS PART OF FIRE! He accepted it, the audience accepted, his collaborators accepted it, so it seems to be at least somewhat accepted. Either way, it's on the closest thing to an official Smile album from the man himself. Did he at some point prior to 1988 or 2003 possibly try to put it together himself, or did he take David Leaf's cue, perhaps it sounded better, and went with that version of "Fire"?

He won a Grammy for that very Fire piece, too. I have never, but never, made a personal mix of Smile so whatever acceptance of Fire as many now know it in the context of a finished Smile appears just as Brian put his name on the creation. And whatever was once labeled "H&V Intro" is known to the masses as part of Fire.

 :)

(http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/showbiz/images/attachement/jpg/site1/20080522/000802ab8018099f16da02.jpg)


In this photo, he's holding the Grammy he just won for "Heroes And Villains Intro". ;D

Alan Boyd stated in 2001 when he was doing the new mix of Heroes for the “Hawthorn” cd that the chorus track (Bicycle rider theme with the “train like percussion”) was actually logged as "Heroes and Villians Side Two" on the original tape box. I seem to remember that being from the session on February 27th 1967.
Does anyone still have access to the expanded liner notes from “Hawthorn?” They’re not on the Capital website anymore; I think some of this information is from there.


The article I was remembering was titled “Beach Boys’ New Single to Last Five Minutes” and I think it was from March '67. At least from before the single was switched to vegetables in April. The article where Mike plays that tape states that the interview took place 3 days after Monterey which would be, June 21st? I must have put the two articles together in my mind. Does anyone know the date of the “Single to Last Five Minutes” article I mentioned? It may have been a clipping I saw in LLVS, sounds like something Derek Taylor would have put out. I don’t have my copy available right now.

Anything 5 minutes or longer, if it were released as one single, had to have been split over two sides of a 45 rpm record. It just wouldn’t fit on a single side.

The “cantina” mix is from a tape box labeled “’heros & villains’ as of 2/10/67 master” and is a safety copy. The time is listed as “2:57 MASTER” The article where Brian talks about mixing the single is from NME for the week ending February 18, 1967, by Tracy Thomas in the “America calling” section. It states, “THE Beach Boys next single, ‘Heroes And Villains’, will be released as soon as Brian Wilson decides on the B-side. Brian told me this week, ‘I’m doing the final mix on the A-side tonight, but I can’t decide what to do on the other side.”
He then runs through some options (Pet Sounds tracks, piano solo, but not another Smile track) but doesn’t mention a 2 sided single as something he had thought about. Two weeks later he records the section called “Heroes and Villians Side Two.”

For several reasons that interview had to have taken place on February 10th, but before the 15th at very latest.

I gave up on tape master numbers after spending some time working with a guy that worked extensively in the recording industry in the 60’s and 70’s. The simple answer is that the number is identifying a reel of tape for library purposes but doesn’t tell anything about the music on it or its purpose. Even worse, Brian was taking these track masters to Columbia studios and bouncing them to one track on an 8 track tape for the vocals. This 8 track tape would get a new, different master number assigned to it. That would be the much more important master number anyways since its closer to the end of the process. Plus adding in the scooping and cutting up of tape Brian was doing (i.e. Wind Chimes) and well, it's a mess. If you have any better information on this let me know, I once spent a lot of time working out which section matched each master number but it never really made any sense.

Bob Dylan proved that wasn't the case with Like A Rolling Stone, didn't he?   Just saying...

There's no external date, but the piece mentions the European tour starting on May 2nd. Now, granted it says "Beach Boys new single will probably last five minutes" (and yes, it is Taylor) but back in those days, when anyone said "single", they invariably meant the A side. Significantly, Taylor doesn't say the song takes up both sides of the single.

As for length, well, less than a year later "Hey Jude" clocked in at 7.11, and "MacArthur Park" before that was slightly longer. I think a five minute A side in mid-1967 was entirely feasible. "Ode to Billie Joe" in summer 1967 was 4.15 long.

and in 1965 Dylan had an A side that ran over 6 minutes.

Yeah, you're right. Bob Dylan did it first. That seems really impressive for 1965. I remember that the DJ’s had to flip the record to play the whole song on the radio but I guess there were two versions, the long version and the split version. I knew that 7 plus minutes was possible by 1968 but about 4 1/2 minutes seemed to be it for the mid sixties. I thought the Beatles were having a problem with needles skipping on singles in 1966 due to the grooves being too thin. Guess not.


You beat me to it. I found my copy of LLVS. “Beach Boys’ new disc lasts five minutes!” Looks like it’s from “Disc” magazine and by Derek Taylor, no date. It does say “disc” not single in the article title but it’s probably not worth debating the use of that word as opposed to single. The song just appears to have gone from 3 minutes on February 10th to 5 minutes by March or April. Also noticed that it states that the Smile album will have 12 tracks and even lists eight of them. That answers some of those questions!

I found a link to the expanded liner notes from the “Hawthorne” album here:

http://www.albumlinernotes.com/Hawthorne__CA.html

Great seeing this again but here is the important part:
“So Brian assembled a version of Heroes and Villains, re-recording several sections in a makeshift studio newly installed at his home, and using just a few segments from the original Smile sessions for the new single [(the verses, and the track for the chorus - logged as "Heroes and Villians Side Two" on the original tape box)]. “

The chorus section was originally intended to be part of a separate piece of music. The first piece of music would end, then you would pick up the record, flip it over and start the next piece of music; but they are both called “Heroes And Villains.”
The notes just say it was recorded February 1967 but I think I remember that it matched the session on February 27th.

This is fascinating  - I didn't realise there was a quote from Brian directly referring to the Cantina mix. Thanks for that.

As far as the likelihood of a two sided Heroes and Villains goes, I know this has been debated before, but surely the fact that Tag to Part 1 is referred to as such, suggests that Heroes at that stage consisted of two sections - each with definite tags. That in itself, suggests to me that Brian was creating a Heroes A & B side at that point. The riposte to this in the past has been that sections of songs were often labelled as part 1, 2 etc e.g. "Fire: The Elements Part 1", but when something is called 'Tag to Part 1' that really suggests that Part 1 is a song in itself with its own ending, and not just a section, doesn't it? Throw 'Heroes Intro' into the mix (i.e. an intro for Heroes that was unlikley to be an intro to the A side) and that's extremely strong evidence for a two sided single imo.

Was the Dylan single changed from being on two sides to one side by the 70s? I bought it around '76 and all of "Like A Rolling Stone" was on one side.

I think you're misremembering the Beatles situation. As I recall, McCartney (and the others) were frustrated that the bass frequency was always being reduced during mastering because Abbey Road engineers believed needles would skip if too much bass was present (regardless of the song's length). The Beatles forced the issue by arguing that American recordings contained more bass and the result was an increased bass presence for the "Paperback Writer" single and subsequent recordings.

There was a major issue with the way 45 rpm singles were cut in those days, and Hey Jude was the breakthrough from a mechanical-technological standpoint, for what the mastering engineer(s) and the people working at actually cutting the disc grooves had to accomplish to get the record pressed.

I know there are several accounts and interviews with those Apple/EMI tech people online, but I don't have any links - a search should turn it up. I wish I could remember the names.

The issue with Hey Jude was indeed the number and size of grooves physically needed to cut that record - since it was so long, and 45's could only hold so many grooves, it was trying to fit 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag. They had to think of it as they would do pressing an EP, which did have smaller grooves, but with it's own unique considerations. The needle would slip out of the grooves because they were too thin, physically, and they had to run if I recall many experiments and test pressings before they made it work. In those days I understand "Hey Jude" was quite a mechanical feat in itself and most people who bought the single had no idea what had to be done to make that record.

The issue of bass response and Paperback Writer was a separate issue, with EQ and mastering concerns rather than the grooves themselves.

Think you'll find that the mastering engineers on "MacArthur Park" (which BTW had a much greater dynamic range than "Hey Jude") got there first by a few months.

Strikes me this is another example of "The Beatles did it first" which doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

Not to beat a dead horse, but you are absolutely correct - he took David Leaf's cue, agreed with him it sounded good there, and so it is.  No one thinks BWPS is what Smile would have been in 1967 if Brian finished it, do they?  I'm not sure I understand what the audience response to the piece has to do with Brian's intentions for that section in 1967 - nothing, right?  And the grammy - if BWPS won a grammy, would that mean Brian intended in 1967 to mix tony asher's lyrics with Mike's for Good Vibrations? :)

Ahh the double blind history re-write supposition.  Conversely,  Brian didn't  plan to mix the lyrics, so he lost the Grammy for BWPS  ::)

A few points:

One, this is from an interview in Mix magazine with Armin Steiner who engineered that record:

Q: Mastering a 45 rpm record of that length, which you also did at Sound Recorders, must have been another story unto itself.

A: We had to get 7:20 on a 45 rpm record. The only other record that had been done that way was “Hey Jude.” Cal Frisk, who worked for me and was a super-great engineer, did the mastering. It was done manually; we didn't use variable pitch — we opened and closed the grooves manually.

I knew the music so well, you see, that we could maximize cutting it by doing it by hand. When the music gets very quiet, you can close the grooves, because it doesn't take up much space.

When you have louder sound and deeper bass, you need more land between the grooves in order to reproduce it. Knowing the music, you pretty much know your limits.

In those days, don't forget, it was a real battle of levels with 45 rpm records. It was always about trying to make the loudest disc and defeat all the stuff in the transmitters and the radio stations so that you could produce the loudest single over the air.

There were two factors to consider: the amount of space that is technically allowed — up to so many centimeters from the center — and the distortion factor. As you get toward the inside of the record, you have greater distortion. It was art and science at the same time; that was the romance of the business in those days. And, since the masters were all cut by hand, maybe there was a slight difference between each of them. Maybe I made a better one the second time!


Second:
It was reported by people who owned the record in 1968, radio DJ's included, bought or received 45rpm pressings of MacArthur Park which skipped or which did not track properly on the turntables of the day. This was a pitfall of squeezing that much music onto the 45's grooves, and according to some the actual 45 record of the song suffered from that. I don't recall seeing as much if any reports of the original Hey Jude 45's having this problem.

Not to take away at all from Steiner and Cal Frisk who did an amazing job on a legendary recording, but it is an interesting footnote to hear reports of that record which would not play properly due to the small grooves.

Third:
There is a difference between the way records were mixed and mastered as standard practice at EMI in the UK at that time and the way records were mixed and mastered in the US at studios like Motown and in the LA studio scene. Perhaps the credit given to a guy like Malcolm Davies for his work mastering the Hey Jude single is more of a testament to the way that single was a breakthrough for the way records were mastered and cut *in the UK*, since I'm guessing it was the longest single EMI had to master and cut up to that point.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a case of over-crediting The Beatles, which does happen quite often, but perhaps a case of the first single of that length to be cut to 45 that well in the UK studios. Remember Atlantic had an 8-track machine fully operational in New York in the 50's, Motown had their own in 1964, and EMI wouldn't have one available for the Beatles to use until the White Album. Just to illustrate that difference between the US studios and EMI.

Apart from all that, MacArthur Park and Hey Jude are fantastic records.

Ask some people who own the BWPS album the question about what Smile would have been in 1967 - and keep in mind many of those people who bought and love that album wouldn't know David Leaf or David Anderle or Michael Vosse if they ran them over with a shopping cart full of vegetables. The music is what it is on that album for more people than have ever heard of the phrase "comp reel" or what it means to Smile history. "Fire" for a lot of people exists as it sounds on BWPS. Just like "Child Is Father..." may sound out of place if not heard at the end of Surf's Up for BB fans who knew the 70's version for 30+ years as the only released version.

To make a statement that it's not widely accepted isn't true. Saying it's accepted that way in 2011 by a majority of listeners isn't saying I agree that's how Brian wanted it in 1967.

Another suggestion was that it might fit well in my personal mix of Smile, and my suggestion was that not only had I never made a Smile mix of my own nor had any desire to make one, but also the Intro-Fire mash-up fit so well in Brian Wilson's own personal mix of Smile that they awarded him a Grammy for the specific song we're talking about. I was being cheeky. ;D

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

"guitarfool2002" - Thanks for info regarding cutting 45 singles. I realize I had not heard the story regarding the mastering of "Hey Jude" for its single release.

It still looks like Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone" was released on one side of a 45 at over six minutes in mid-65 ("Gates of Eden" being the b-side), so it's not out-of-the-question for Brian to assume he could do a five-minute single-sided "Heroes and Villains" in '67. I'm wondering if the tape Mike played the journalist was simply sections roughly edited together like on the GV Box Set and that his statement regarding "choosing the right version to release" implied that Brian would still have to edit the segments down.

Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS. :h5

Well, the unspoken assumption behind that post is that Smile was 100% a Brian Wilson album and 0% a Beach Boys album.  BWPS, wonderful though it is, is not a Beach Boys record, and therefore not a finished version of the 67 album so much as a re-imagination of it. 

The biggest disappointment on 2/20/04 was that no-one stood up during Smile and yelled "NO ! It doesn't go like that !!".  ::)

Whatever you need to call it, Brian did write most of it, therefore... :brian

Well, I mean, Paul McCartney offered "Junk", "Teddy Boy," and a few other songs to The Beatles. George Harrison offered, amongst others, "All Things Must Pass". Lennon had "Gimme Some Truth" and "Child of Nature". And they ended up finishing and releasing these songs not as the Beatles, but as solo artists. Should we not consider "The Back Seat of My Car" to be a true finishing of that song because although Paul premiered it for the group during the Get Back sessions, he finished it in a way that may have been different from a potential Beatles version during the Ram sessions. I know I'm comparing songs to an album, but I mean, what i'm saying is Brian (and Van Dyke) had the final call on this material, and not any of the other Beach Boys or David Anderle or Jack Reilly or Gene Landy. Therefore, whether we like it or not, SMiLE '04 is the only version there is. Maybe The Beach Boys will put out some release of it, but who knows, as of now, we have some songs intended for the project on scattered albums and then the 2004 album and thats it.

Agreed 100%.  The proverbial fat lady sang seven years ago...

Fair enough on the qualms about master numbers and the thinity of the evidence. However, the master numbers and other recording info is very accurate overall for these particular recordings and the only thing we know is H&V Part/Side 2 and H&V had their own master numbers [which they wouldn't have if they were one song both on one side of a pressing] and the only thing we know about what is known so far about the recordings for Part/Side 2 is that the music recorded for the stand-alone Part/Side 2 are only and exclusively samples of other non-H&V album tracks.  That is the simple non-over-thought answer to my mind.

Oh yeah, also we do have two scene witnesses who did mention that H&V did have two parts spread over both sides of the single. I think that's what they said, I probably should have looked it up.

Odd, yes. I'd figured that the expert entitled to such a brave act of total authoritative intelligence and knowledge would have been one Andrew G. Doe. You are a coward, mr. Doe. It's time that truth be told.

I was waiting for one Priore, D. to get the ball rolling, then I'd get up and yell "yeah - it's ALL wrong !"

Although... it would have been so much more amusing - not to mention valid - had Mr. Parks got up and hollered "Actually, changed my mind - it's not "indians" at all, it's "Endians", y'know, Gulliver's Travels and all that. Nothing to do with Americana at all".  ;D

 :lol

Your reasoning is a bit specious - In 2003 Brian decided the order of a "Smile suite" to be performed live, using bits and pieces of the original smile recordings as he and Van Dyke and Darian saw fit, with some new lyrics and orchestrated link sections.  after the acclaim accorded the live performances he recorded the live Smile suite for an album "Brian Wilson Presents Smile. " This is what he presented us and "finished" - nothing more.  When asked if BWPS was how the album would have been if finished in 1967, the answer was no.  BWPS was done and complete as a work, but NOT the original "Smile" - which of course at this time could never be finished as it might have been in 1967, too much time and brain damage and drugs and mental illness in the intervening years.

So it's still an open question what Brian had in mind for Smile in 1967, what would have been included and excluded, how songs would be finished, etc.  Of course, if to you BWPS is a perfect realization of the Smile music and you aren't interested in the original recordings or how Brian was piecing them together back in the day, all these issues are irrelevant.

BWPS is the best possible compromise of Smile that there could've been. The '67 sessions, 1/2 hour on the GV boxset and bootlegs I've heard have a certain something about them, a presence that BWPS doesn't have, but BWPS should be enjoyed for it's own sake. Seeing the Smile show in 2004, it was just incredible to hear how all these fragments fitted together, how some sections (Do You Like Worms ?, Holidays, etc) now had words where previously they didn't. I find the Tony Asher lyrics for GV a little jarring when the proper lyrics shoud've really been used, but that doesn't detract from the enjoyment of Smile 2004. The 2nd Movement is probably the finest section IMO, an outstanding piece of music by anyone's standards.
I'm new to this forum, but have been fascinated by the legend of Smile for many years now, via boots, the boxset and my well-thumbed copy of LLVS (even though I'm in agreement with Andrew G. Doe about some of Domenic Priore's theories not holding water), so to see Smile as a completed work in any shape or form was a wonderful thing ! It was also a pleasure, by the way, to have the best seats in the house when watching Brian and his stellar musicians perform it (first tickets sold, 4 feet away from Brian !)

In what way do you mean Andrew? For me the beauty of Smile is how we can all change it around and have fun with it all, which we couldn't of done had Brian finished and released the album in 67, which makes me feel both sad and happy ;D

Strongly disagree. It doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought in 1965. The fact is Brian said "Let Him Run Wild" isn't a good record. Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. And that's that. John Lennon hought I Am the Walrus wasn't a good production. Artist are often too close to their work to appreciate or judge it. What matters is the emotions the music evokes in the listner. The nth generation cassette dub of the '66 CITFOTM backing track takes me somewhere the '04 version doesn't approach. Whether BW deems the 2004 version 'finished' isn't a factor in my appreciation of the '66 version.

My beef with the 2004 additions is not that BW dared work on them decades later, it's that they suck. The Holidays lyrics, the "is it hot as hell" bit, the fake tack piano sounds. Almost all of the new stuff, like it or not, doesn't gel with the '66 stuff. Kind of like the CGI stuff Lucas added to the first Star Wars film. The 'Look' vocal melody is an exception, that totally works. Just my .02. Maybe it is sour grapes because we *still* don't have the most finished '66-'67 versions in existence. Not only that but apparently BW, Van Dyke and Darian didn't have the acetates that document Brian's final work on the original sessions. Why cobble IIGS together and write new lyrics to CITFOTM without listening to the most complete original versions? (I'm assuming that the various unheard acetates known to exist includes those two titles..)

I actually agree with you. I prefer the original sessions stuff too. My only point was that the SMiLE album was released by Brian Wilson. Those are the versions he chose to put out. That doesn't mean we have to enjoy "Do You Like Worms" any less than "Roll Plymouth Rock". Honestly, I think the "Holidays" lyrics do suck, along with the "In Blue Hawaii" lyrics. And I also think "Holidays" was probably dismissed by Brian by the time they gave Capitol the song title list. Same with "Look". And I also feel "I Love To Say Da Da" reached fruition as "Cool Cool Water", so I didn't see the point in rewriting it as "In Blue Hawaii".

However, SMiLE is Brian and Van Dyke's work, so guess what, they got the last word on what it is (or isn't).

One other thing though, what is this about the acetates of Brian's final work on the original sessions? Are you saying there is more unbooted stuff that even Brian didn't have access to in '03? Where is it? Is it in the Brother vaults?

I assume that all of the living Beach Boys have acetates or tapes.   Bruce has said that he has some stuff, and I think Al has said the same.  The legendary Durrie Parks acetates may or may not exist.  I wouldn't be surprised if Anderle or Vosse or another of the insiders of the time had recordings.  Whether any of this stuff is the same as what we've already heard, or a full CIFTTM with lyrics, or even in playable condition after all of these years will remain a mystery until the recordings are made available.  I'm starting to lose hope of hearing anything new (to us), but one never knows. 

I doubt Mike has anything: Bruce certainly does, and Alan too. Oddly, I really don't think Brian has anything kicking around in the closets at home.


They do.


Excellent point - acetates tend to give up the ghost after 20-30 plays, and I doubt they were treated with much respect in the first place.  ;D

That melody is vintage too so might be why you like it!

Addressing Anderle and Vosse possibly having dubs, or acetates, or rough mixes, or whatever - no one in that inner circle that I'm aware of - publicly, that is - had ever hinted that they have anything of the sort. Vosse and Anderle have, however, said in numerous interviews and comments how they would ask Brian to play them dubs and rough mixes of certain sections of Smile, which implies they never owned them personally.

This makes sense - even today an artist usually does not hand out random copies of songs being planned for a release to friends or business associates unless they want it to leak online and spoil the surprise.

Of course that's definitely not a standard practice! But I don't think Brian would be giving out dubs and mixes to people other than those directly involved in the music. That explains why those who have confirmed copies of 1966-67 dubs are all band members or the ex-wife of the co-creator! :-D

Acetates are crap - they're meant to be played 2 or 3 times as a reference, they're not stable and the surface literally peels off the plate if the grooves haven't been worn down by the wrong choice of needles to play them.

If no one dubbed or transferred the Durrie Parks acetates by now, whether they contain the Holy Grail or the emptiness of Al Capone's vault as discovered by Geraldo Rivera, shame on whoever could have made that call years ago.  ::)

Don't know about Anderle but Siegel had had acetates but they were stolen so maybe they could turn up somewhere someday.

Vosse thought he had mementos at this Mom's house but I seem to remember that he no longer had acetates for some reason. Hopefully somebody asked Vosse about it during the making of BD docu.

I wonder if anyone has ever asked the Derek Taylor family if they have anything?

Do you remember maybe 6 years ago or so, some of Vosse's Smile-era memorabilia was up for auction? There was specifically a child's lunch bag, or something similar, which Brian had written a memo on, which was up for sale, and maybe a few other items similar in nature with Brian's handwriting. I had copies and information but it was lost in a PC mishap I had soon after and never showed up again (damn!).

Is there any more information about that Vosse auction or those items? I don't remember any actual recordings, acetates, tracklists, etc.

Jules Seigel had acetates? For real??? I can't doubt it because I have no idea, BUT... it's a stretch. He was only around for a short time. Who knows.

You know what he's doing now, right? If not search and be prepared... :)

Be prepared ? Doesn't seem too extraordinary according to his Wikipedia entry (the usefulness and truth percentage of Wikipedia is, of course, an issue for another day)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jules_Siegel

Vosse was aware of that and I don't remember but he gave it to the guy or the guy bought it, it was a legit deal as I remember. Vosse was around long enough to have had a recording of the March H&V/H&V Part2 but I don't know that he did.

As I remember, that was Jules memory, that he had recordings but they were stolen or lost in a storage unit ot something unfortunate. He was out in December.

I was only joking with the "be prepared" part - he has a YouTube channel where you might expect something related to his rock and roll adventures but he only has posted a video he reviewed about a massage. That's it! Nothing groundbreaking, not even that funny really. I forget where else online I saw him pop up recently.

I find it hard to believe he received any acetates or tape dubs that early in the Smile process, because even Vosse and Anderle didn't have them and they played it like Siegel wasn't in the inner circle.

I also don't think Brian was handing out copies of his music like that especially if you believe the stories about his paranoia that others were "stealing" his Smile ideas, and how that led to him setting up the studio in his house.

Probably not the same auction, but: 
http://entertainment.ha.com/common/view_item.php?Sale_No=7011&Lot_No=49011

Wow, great find! That IS the memo to Vosse I remember seeing, and this was at least 2004 (?), if I remember the timing of the earlier auction.

Quite a strange memo to send, isn't it? There must be some insider info coded into what Brian wrote... :)

I don't remember the check being included (this auction seems to be from 2009, maybe it's for handwriting comparison purposes), and the Smile mock-up looks like a hatchet job rather than an original (but I digress....).

Thank you again for finding that, I wish i didn't have to log into the auction to see a full size shot!

True but I'm having a hard time thinking of a 60's acetate that was unplayable. Even the trashed 40+ year old Velvet Underground Scepter Studios acetate that turned up on a curb side junk sale is listenable. Noisy as hell but you can easily spot things like alternate vocals, etc. With acetates being mono affairs even the most beat up copies can be greatly improved by "summing to mono" which reduces the volume of the surface noise (which is stereo) by half.

What is so damn fascinating is, by virtue of the medium, we know the acetates will contain vintage 1966/67 mono mixes made by Brian and Chuck. We have all of what, 3 or 4 vintage Smile mixdowns? Expect that number to triple if the acetates were rounded up.

I still can't understand why Brian Wilson, especially while he was knee deep in Smile '04, of all people isn't able to do what is neccessary to acquire them? It's not like they are kept in the Titanic broom closet at the bottom of the sea. Is it possible no one in Brian's organization in 2004 was aware of the acetates? No one thought to ask Al and Bruce if they could listen to them? Even if there was no intention to ever release them you would think they would have been valuable to Brian and VDP while working on Smile in 2004. In a way I think the whole '04 Smile saga closed the door or any archival release or examination of the acetates. Somone should write a Smile article for Mojo or Uncut that mentions the existance of this material. Maybe that would generate enough interest to get the ball rolling?

Well, we finally know the final track list for the SMiLE album!

What is that a picture of at the top of that memo? Is it a SMiLEing face?

The problem is that acetates like the VU and other trashcan and library finds are not being played over and over - they may be played once to transfer to another medium, and perhaps again if they trade hands. But the acetate material that comes out in trade circles is taken from dubs, and very few plays in between.

Ever hear of "cue burn"? It's what used to happen to 45rpm records as DJ's played them over and over and had to "cue" them up on the player. The grooves at the beginning of records would wear out and you'd notice it on a broadcast. Some old-school DJ's worked only with records, others would transfer a popular record to a tape cartridge (a cart) so they'd simply pop it in when it had to be played and nothing would wear out.

So here were professional broadcast DJ's working with better-quality 50's and 60's vinyl, pro stylus and turntables, and they'd still wear normal records out over time by playing them. Imagine a much cheaper and less stable format with the acetate and no matter what a bootleg sounds like on a compilation, you can't play them too many times before they simply crap out.

I don't know if Bruce or Al would have any motivation at all to contribute to Brian's Smile revival since Bruce was touring with Mike and Al wasn't involved in Smile 2004 at all. They're holding 4 aces close to their vest, if they do have "new" unheard acetates as they have claimed.

I used to have a JPEG of that - if I remember it might be a child's lunchbag which Brian mailed, or one of those silly notes that girls pass around in the 5th grade. I think it's a smiling girl on the bag, but that's from a 6+ years ago memory.

I'll be an optimist and say: we know the parks, bruce, and al acetates exist.  Alan Boyd, in his own words, has been "working with Brother Records and Capitol Records to organize, catalog, and preserve the mass of vintage Beach Boys tapes in their archives."   Do you really think that the person employed to document the bands career and put their library and archive into shape hasn't asked the band members themselves what important tapes they might have?  And that those band members would then say lie or refuse access to their own archivist?!  I could be wrong, but it seems to me that the far most likely scenario is that there exist a number of additional smile materials safely copied and locked away (perhaps next to those infamous manson sessions?) in a deep vault miles below the capital tower in the heart of Los Angeles, and awaiting (to be blunt) the passing on of the remaining participants before they will see the light of day.  We know acetates exist.  The incentives to preserve them are huge, the incentives to tell fans about them when they're not going to be released anytime soon anyway: much smaller. 

Just my opinion.   

I have said it before and I will say it again. I have been told that 66-67 smile will never see the light of day whilst they are alive, "too many lawsuits". BWPS was purely put together as a LIVE performance and was not a true indication of what the original smile would have been!

OK. here's the pics, which in 2009 sold for $298.75 which included the buyer's premium; 
The note:
(http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bgasnow/vosse1.jpg)

and the address side( it's a folding mailing note) which in the auction showed this side turned 180 degrees: 

(http://i730.photobucket.com/albums/ww302/bgasnow/vosse2.jpg)

Well of course the original 1966/7 Smile will never see release, because it was never close to being the finished article.

The session tapes, now... that's something else entirely. They could be released.

Damn, Brian sure did have a....different sense of humor.

Brian wasn't recording and/or mixing things straight to acetate; these low-quality discs had to come from tape sources. There is, of course, the potential for mixes and elements to be found on the acetates that were later wiped from the source tape or recorded over. But it is just as likely that the acetates contain the same unfinished mixes and sections that exist in the tape library, right?

How do we know for sure that the acetates contain complete mono mixdowns not found on tape?

I'm not saying the acetate situation should be ignored, but let's not assume that everything we haven't heard (or think should exist) will be found on the acetates.

Aww cmon, that's what makes all of this fun. 

It can also be a little heartbreaking too!

I think we all have our own inside jokes with close friends that would make no sense to anyone else.

I get that. And it sort of goes along with the whole thing of spirituality and innocence that Brian had going on back then. Still, that girls face is a little creepy.

Shirley you jest?  Isn't that modeled on Maureen's image? 

More like Carol Kaye. And don't call me Shirley  ;D

Oh yeah, you could be right; I get those two confused, since they both claim so much credit for  Brian's successes

Of course, without exception acetates were cut from tape sources.


Not correct. If it's on an acetate it was cut from a vintage mono mix. Since we can just about count the number of '66 mixes we have on Micky Mouse fingers it's far more likely the acetates contain unheard 1966/7 Brian Wilson mixes. That isn't to say they were *finished* mixes but they will be a more accurate reflection of what Brian had in mind at the time. Consider Old Master Painter...the versions we have from the session tapes have no vocals. The beat up acetate has the DW lead vocal. 'Barnshine' or whatever it's called now is another. Those "...skies are grey" vocals in the fade only exist on that acetate.


Because we don't have but a few mono mixdowns so by default they would have to be something not found on tape. Alan Boyd has posted that there are a bunch of empty tape boxes that contained 1/4" reels of Smile material. It's very likely some of these were pressed to acetate. Things like a 1966 mono mix of Cabinessence, pre-1967 mixdowns of early versions H&V, maybe Worms with unheard vocal overdubs, vintage mono mix of Surf's Up, the possibilities are mind-boggling.

Two things:

1) there are acetates of missing Smile material and mixes owned by band members, top tier collectors, ex-wives, etc.

2) very few of these acetates are in Beach Boys tape library.

I have no idea why the acetates haven't been acquired. I do know that Alan Boyd himself has put the call out for Smile acetates on this very site.

I suppose one reason some of the "calls from Alan Boyd" haven't been answered is that us collectors know a coupla things.
The acetates are worth more if they don't get copied and distributed. 
What would I rather have?  An acetate that NOT ONE OTHER PERSON HAS, or one that I own, but I've let everybody else have a copy.
That's easy...

I have a very strong suspicion that has nothing to do with it.

Wha? I figured it was obvious but I was meant PURCHASE the acetates from collectors. Not sure why you would think anyone expected a collector to donate unheard Smile material for the cause. When the record company acquires unheard material it's implicit that in involves an exchange of money.

i'm sorry, but i highly doubt they're like that at all.  There's no value in something if nobody knows you have it.  they would be aware of that. 

Not invariably.

I'm not sure what would be on them but if nothing else it seems they would show actual or intended assembly of tracks and it seems to me he was fairly free with handing them out to the Posse, the Boys apparently, and taking them home of course and possibly others. At least Brian was letting others hear acetates of work in progress for a period.

Right. That's why people pay for stolen artwork. 
So they can hang it on their wall and tell everybody they have it....NOT. 

Reminds me of a story that Ernst Jorgensen (Elvis Presley's archivist) related in an interview a few years back. He had received a "tip" that a private collector had a considerable amount of Elvis reels that had been missing from the RCA archives. RCA managed to get in touch with the collector and sent Ernst with a money bag (like a bank bag) to exchange with the collector at an "undisclosed location". The "transaction" was money bag to hand/box of reels to hand, and the two walked away from each other.

Do we know or are we assuming Brian was handing out acetates to people other than band members and his collaborator Van Dyke? Those are the only examples that have been described by word of mouth in interviews and articles for years - Bruce, Al, and Durrie Parks. We know some more got out, but Jules Siegel? Can we be sure?

And Brian was the one who would play these acetates for his friends and guests - remember the description of him knowing the record by recognizing the cut of the grooves, as he played DJ for his assembled guests with Smile acetates?

I can't think of a single anecdote or statement, please correct me if I'm wrong, where anyone in the circle of Smile friends ever received an acetate or a mixdown from Brian. I think he was holding those pretty close to his own vest and his own band.

Remember what is on acetate had to be at one time on a tape, as someone mentioned. But what got copied to acetate may not have lasted on tape. Most of these were reference mixes from a day's work in the studio so they could take them home and listen, or give them to someone to learn a part or whatever. The future importance of these at the time was not too great for those involved.

Another quick anecdote, and I have this one on VHS if I can ever find it.

A guy showed up on a cable TV antique appraisal show about 12-13 years ago clutching an acetate of "Guess I'm Dumb", with handwritten label still intact and the protective sleeve from I believe Gold Star. I don't recall how he got it, whether it was a family member or a lucky record buy, but just saying it was amazing to see something like that come up in between Mickey Mouse telephones and beer can collections. I sent that VHS copy to a few old timers from the Smile Shop years ago and can't recall what if anything ever came from researching it, only that I think it was a reference acetate of the final mix rather than a rare outtake or test mix.

For all I know the guy who had it on the show is a member of this board!  :-D

Not saying you are wrong, but I don't recall that any of the Posse were in possession of any acetates. Durrie parks claimed to have had some years ago, Al and Bruce(?) said they had some, and as far as I know that's about it. We know, according to Jules' article, that Brian had a few that had no lyrics on them that he played for the hipsters at his dinner parties. It seems like people have this idea that there are numerous acetates out there floating around, and IMO, that seems to not be the case at all. Just my 2 cents worth.

I'm just pointing out I said the same thing about 45 minutes before you posted this. ;D

I only know what I think I remember of what I've been told a few years ago.

Siegel answers e-mail. Jonathan Anderle used to be around, maybe an IM would flush him out and he could ask his Dad. Vosse was working at KGO and could be reached by phone. There are Volman and what's his name, Danny Hutton, Derek Taylor's family, who else could be asked? Maybe the Wrecking Crew, probably not but maybe? Larry Levine was still alive a few years ago, maybe he could say how many Brian would have cut as a rule, if it was more than a half dozen than...?  Bruce answers message board questions here and there.

This is the SMiLE Shop, let's go team: independent corroboration.

In the case of Siegel, I think I'm starting to remember that he said he had an acetate that had more than one song on it. I think I took it that it could be that December comp. Someone else ask.

The grey cells ain't so far gone, I looked it up. There could be alot of interesting acetate artifacts out there.

Here is what Vosse told me: "As for acetates, we got them all the time, lots of them, I do not remember one from another. Plus you know they wear out after a few playings so you'd get one and then a few days later another and so on and so on.”

Siegel told me he had a "vinyl dub" of a collection of tracks including vocals which he thought he had gotten around the time of the Oppenheim taping of Surf's Up; since lost.

Trust but verify; someone else needs to take a run at it.

This is good information. Vosse confirmed what I said about acetates being crap after a handful of spins, that's the nature of the acetate as a disposable "memo" of a day's work, so if they are out there they had better have been dubbed years ago.

Mark Volman has, on the record, been stand-offish when the subject of Smile was brought up. For whatever reasons, whatever bad vibes may linger, someday he might open up but it seems like he's not into discussing it.

Don't forget Dean Torrance.

And add me to the school of thought that some people will hold tight to such items for the financial value especially if they're "unheard", "unbooted", "previously unpublished", "unseen", etc. As soon as that item gets published, heard, copied, etc., the value of that unique original goes down. I'm just saying...

Gonna need a Ouija board, he died 5/8/2008.

Curses! You indeed are correct, sir. I have no idea what happened there! Apologies!

I thought that might be the case and am very sorry to hear it.

From the mid/late 1960's? I've never seen mention of stereo acetates from the era but I guess there are a few. Were you referring to 33 1/3 acetates?

This letter, and its innocent wide-eyed little girl masthead are spine-tinglingly redolent with the elusive & ethereal I'm In Great Shape-style, humorously health-conscious and spiritual Smile aesthetic. Thrilling to see & an amazing bargain at $300. Thanks for posting! :)

You're saying it was cut from a vintage mono mix, implying said mix was final, or near final. Some of the acetates were a very rough mono dub from the multitracks for Brian to consider his next move. According to your statement, Brian had finished mixes for most of Smile by late 1966, and we know that's not so.

Er, my post did not state or imply anything of the sort. I don't see how "vintage mono mix" suggests anything other than a mono mix created around the time of the sessions. Could be anything from a tossed off rough mix of a basic track to a final mix.  I re-read my post and I don't see how anything I wrote suggests "finished mixes". Of course any vintage mix, no matter how rough, is of value as it reflects some level of input from Brian.

They never had to flip the record - the whole song was on the A side, the B side was Gates of Eden.