Mike Love wanted the Beach Boys to finish SMiLE

[guitarfool2002]

Yeah, you're right. Bob Dylan did it first. That seems really impressive for 1965. I remember that the DJ’s had to flip the record to play the whole song on the radio but I guess there were two versions, the long version and the split version. I knew that 7 plus minutes was possible by 1968 but about 4 1/2 minutes seemed to be it for the mid sixties. I thought the Beatles were having a problem with needles skipping on singles in 1966 due to the grooves being too thin. Guess not.

Was the Dylan single changed from being on two sides to one side by the 70s? I bought it around '76 and all of "Like A Rolling Stone" was on one side.

I think you're misremembering the Beatles situation. As I recall, McCartney (and the others) were frustrated that the bass frequency was always being reduced during mastering because Abbey Road engineers believed needles would skip if too much bass was present (regardless of the song's length). The Beatles forced the issue by arguing that American recordings contained more bass and the result was an increased bass presence for the "Paperback Writer" single and subsequent recordings.

There was a major issue with the way 45 rpm singles were cut in those days, and Hey Jude was the breakthrough from a mechanical-technological standpoint, for what the mastering engineer(s) and the people working at actually cutting the disc grooves had to accomplish to get the record pressed.

I know there are several accounts and interviews with those Apple/EMI tech people online, but I don't have any links - a search should turn it up. I wish I could remember the names.

The issue with Hey Jude was indeed the number and size of grooves physically needed to cut that record - since it was so long, and 45's could only hold so many grooves, it was trying to fit 10 pounds into a 5 pound bag. They had to think of it as they would do pressing an EP, which did have smaller grooves, but with it's own unique considerations. The needle would slip out of the grooves because they were too thin, physically, and they had to run if I recall many experiments and test pressings before they made it work. In those days I understand "Hey Jude" was quite a mechanical feat in itself and most people who bought the single had no idea what had to be done to make that record.

The issue of bass response and Paperback Writer was a separate issue, with EQ and mastering concerns rather than the grooves themselves.

[Andrew G. Doe]

There was a major issue with the way 45 rpm singles were cut in those days, and Hey Jude was the breakthrough from a mechanical-technological standpoint, for what the mastering engineer(s) and the people working at actually cutting the disc grooves had to accomplish to get the record pressed.

Think you'll find that the mastering engineers on "MacArthur Park" (which BTW had a much greater dynamic range than "Hey Jude") got there first by a few months.

Strikes me this is another example of "The Beatles did it first" which doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

[Bicyclerider]

But consider this:

Where is that so-called "Intro" piece on Brian Wilson's own "personal mix" of Smile, the Grammy winning mix we call BWPS? Not mine, but Brian's?

It appears AS PART OF FIRE! He accepted it, the audience accepted, his collaborators accepted it, so it seems to be at least somewhat accepted. Either way, it's on the closest thing to an official Smile album from the man himself. Did he at some point prior to 1988 or 2003 possibly try to put it together himself, or did he take David Leaf's cue, perhaps it sounded better, and went with that version of "Fire"?

He won a Grammy for that very Fire piece, too. I have never, but never, made a personal mix of Smile so whatever acceptance of Fire as many now know it in the context of a finished Smile appears just as Brian put his name on the creation. And whatever was once labeled "H&V Intro" is known to the masses as part of Fire.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but you are absolutely correct - he took David Leaf's cue, agreed with him it sounded good there, and so it is.  No one thinks BWPS is what Smile would have been in 1967 if Brian finished it, do they?  I'm not sure I understand what the audience response to the piece has to do with Brian's intentions for that section in 1967 - nothing, right?  And the grammy - if BWPS won a grammy, would that mean Brian intended in 1967 to mix tony asher's lyrics with Mike's for Good Vibrations?

[bgas]

And the grammy - if BWPS won a grammy, would that mean Brian intended in 1967 to mix tony asher's lyrics with Mike's for Good Vibrations?

Ahh the double blind history re-write supposition.  Conversely,  Brian didn't  plan to mix the lyrics, so he lost the Grammy for BWPS 

[guitarfool2002]

There was a major issue with the way 45 rpm singles were cut in those days, and Hey Jude was the breakthrough from a mechanical-technological standpoint, for what the mastering engineer(s) and the people working at actually cutting the disc grooves had to accomplish to get the record pressed.

Think you'll find that the mastering engineers on "MacArthur Park" (which BTW had a much greater dynamic range than "Hey Jude") got there first by a few months.

Strikes me this is another example of "The Beatles did it first" which doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

A few points:

One, this is from an interview in Mix magazine with Armin Steiner who engineered that record:

Q: Mastering a 45 rpm record of that length, which you also did at Sound Recorders, must have been another story unto itself.

A: We had to get 7:20 on a 45 rpm record. The only other record that had been done that way was “Hey Jude.” Cal Frisk, who worked for me and was a super-great engineer, did the mastering. It was done manually; we didn't use variable pitch — we opened and closed the grooves manually.

I knew the music so well, you see, that we could maximize cutting it by doing it by hand. When the music gets very quiet, you can close the grooves, because it doesn't take up much space.

When you have louder sound and deeper bass, you need more land between the grooves in order to reproduce it. Knowing the music, you pretty much know your limits.

In those days, don't forget, it was a real battle of levels with 45 rpm records. It was always about trying to make the loudest disc and defeat all the stuff in the transmitters and the radio stations so that you could produce the loudest single over the air.

There were two factors to consider: the amount of space that is technically allowed — up to so many centimeters from the center — and the distortion factor. As you get toward the inside of the record, you have greater distortion. It was art and science at the same time; that was the romance of the business in those days. And, since the masters were all cut by hand, maybe there was a slight difference between each of them. Maybe I made a better one the second time!


Second:
It was reported by people who owned the record in 1968, radio DJ's included, bought or received 45rpm pressings of MacArthur Park which skipped or which did not track properly on the turntables of the day. This was a pitfall of squeezing that much music onto the 45's grooves, and according to some the actual 45 record of the song suffered from that. I don't recall seeing as much if any reports of the original Hey Jude 45's having this problem.

Not to take away at all from Steiner and Cal Frisk who did an amazing job on a legendary recording, but it is an interesting footnote to hear reports of that record which would not play properly due to the small grooves.

Third:
There is a difference between the way records were mixed and mastered as standard practice at EMI in the UK at that time and the way records were mixed and mastered in the US at studios like Motown and in the LA studio scene. Perhaps the credit given to a guy like Malcolm Davies for his work mastering the Hey Jude single is more of a testament to the way that single was a breakthrough for the way records were mastered and cut *in the UK*, since I'm guessing it was the longest single EMI had to master and cut up to that point.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it was a case of over-crediting The Beatles, which does happen quite often, but perhaps a case of the first single of that length to be cut to 45 that well in the UK studios. Remember Atlantic had an 8-track machine fully operational in New York in the 50's, Motown had their own in 1964, and EMI wouldn't have one available for the Beatles to use until the White Album. Just to illustrate that difference between the US studios and EMI.

Apart from all that, MacArthur Park and Hey Jude are fantastic records.

[guitarfool2002]

But consider this:

Where is that so-called "Intro" piece on Brian Wilson's own "personal mix" of Smile, the Grammy winning mix we call BWPS? Not mine, but Brian's?

It appears AS PART OF FIRE! He accepted it, the audience accepted, his collaborators accepted it, so it seems to be at least somewhat accepted. Either way, it's on the closest thing to an official Smile album from the man himself. Did he at some point prior to 1988 or 2003 possibly try to put it together himself, or did he take David Leaf's cue, perhaps it sounded better, and went with that version of "Fire"?

He won a Grammy for that very Fire piece, too. I have never, but never, made a personal mix of Smile so whatever acceptance of Fire as many now know it in the context of a finished Smile appears just as Brian put his name on the creation. And whatever was once labeled "H&V Intro" is known to the masses as part of Fire.

 

Not to beat a dead horse, but you are absolutely correct - he took David Leaf's cue, agreed with him it sounded good there, and so it is.  No one thinks BWPS is what Smile would have been in 1967 if Brian finished it, do they?  I'm not sure I understand what the audience response to the piece has to do with Brian's intentions for that section in 1967 - nothing, right?  And the grammy - if BWPS won a grammy, would that mean Brian intended in 1967 to mix tony asher's lyrics with Mike's for Good Vibrations?

Ask some people who own the BWPS album the question about what Smile would have been in 1967 - and keep in mind many of those people who bought and love that album wouldn't know David Leaf or David Anderle or Michael Vosse if they ran them over with a shopping cart full of vegetables. The music is what it is on that album for more people than have ever heard of the phrase "comp reel" or what it means to Smile history. "Fire" for a lot of people exists as it sounds on BWPS. Just like "Child Is Father..." may sound out of place if not heard at the end of Surf's Up for BB fans who knew the 70's version for 30+ years as the only released version.

To make a statement that it's not widely accepted isn't true. Saying it's accepted that way in 2011 by a majority of listeners isn't saying I agree that's how Brian wanted it in 1967.

Another suggestion was that it might fit well in my personal mix of Smile, and my suggestion was that not only had I never made a Smile mix of my own nor had any desire to make one, but also the Intro-Fire mash-up fit so well in Brian Wilson's own personal mix of Smile that they awarded him a Grammy for the specific song we're talking about. I was being cheeky.

[Jim V.]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

[Roger Ryan]

"guitarfool2002" - Thanks for info regarding cutting 45 singles. I realize I had not heard the story regarding the mastering of "Hey Jude" for its single release.

It still looks like Dylan's "Like A Rolling Stone" was released on one side of a 45 at over six minutes in mid-65 ("Gates of Eden" being the b-side), so it's not out-of-the-question for Brian to assume he could do a five-minute single-sided "Heroes and Villains" in '67. I'm wondering if the tape Mike played the journalist was simply sections roughly edited together like on the GV Box Set and that his statement regarding "choosing the right version to release" implied that Brian would still have to edit the segments down.

[oldsurferdude]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS.

[BJL]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS.

Well, the unspoken assumption behind that post is that Smile was 100% a Brian Wilson album and 0% a Beach Boys album.  BWPS, wonderful though it is, is not a Beach Boys record, and therefore not a finished version of the 67 album so much as a re-imagination of it. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

The biggest disappointment on 2/20/04 was that no-one stood up during Smile and yelled "NO ! It doesn't go like that !!". 

[oldsurferdude]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS.

Well, the unspoken assumption behind that post is that Smile was 100% a Brian Wilson album and 0% a Beach Boys album.  BWPS, wonderful though it is, is not a Beach Boys record, and therefore not a finished version of the 67 album so much as a re-imagination of it. 

Whatever you need to call it, Brian did write most of it, therefore...

[Jim V.]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS.

Well, the unspoken assumption behind that post is that Smile was 100% a Brian Wilson album and 0% a Beach Boys album.  BWPS, wonderful though it is, is not a Beach Boys record, and therefore not a finished version of the 67 album so much as a re-imagination of it. 

Whatever you need to call it, Brian did write most of it, therefore...

Well, I mean, Paul McCartney offered "Junk", "Teddy Boy," and a few other songs to The Beatles. George Harrison offered, amongst others, "All Things Must Pass". Lennon had "Gimme Some Truth" and "Child of Nature". And they ended up finishing and releasing these songs not as the Beatles, but as solo artists. Should we not consider "The Back Seat of My Car" to be a true finishing of that song because although Paul premiered it for the group during the Get Back sessions, he finished it in a way that may have been different from a potential Beatles version during the Ram sessions. I know I'm comparing songs to an album, but I mean, what i'm saying is Brian (and Van Dyke) had the final call on this material, and not any of the other Beach Boys or David Anderle or Jack Reilly or Gene Landy. Therefore, whether we like it or not, SMiLE '04 is the only version there is. Maybe The Beach Boys will put out some release of it, but who knows, as of now, we have some songs intended for the project on scattered albums and then the 2004 album and thats it.

[?]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Absolutely the best post ever written about Smile or BWPS.

Agreed 100%.  The proverbial fat lady sang seven years ago...

[Cam Mott]

Fair enough on the qualms about master numbers and the thinity of the evidence. However, the master numbers and other recording info is very accurate overall for these particular recordings and the only thing we know is H&V Part/Side 2 and H&V had their own master numbers [which they wouldn't have if they were one song both on one side of a pressing] and the only thing we know about what is known so far about the recordings for Part/Side 2 is that the music recorded for the stand-alone Part/Side 2 are only and exclusively samples of other non-H&V album tracks.  That is the simple non-over-thought answer to my mind.

Oh yeah, also we do have two scene witnesses who did mention that H&V did have two parts spread over both sides of the single. I think that's what they said, I probably should have looked it up.

[The Heartical Don]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

The biggest disappointment on 2/20/04 was that no-one stood up during Smile and yelled "NO ! It doesn't go like that !!". 

Odd, yes. I'd figured that the expert entitled to such a brave act of total authoritative intelligence and knowledge would have been one Andrew G. Doe. You are a coward, mr. Doe. It's time that truth be told.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

The biggest disappointment on 2/20/04 was that no-one stood up during Smile and yelled "NO ! It doesn't go like that !!". 

Odd, yes. I'd figured that the expert entitled to such a brave act of total authoritative intelligence and knowledge would have been one Andrew G. Doe. You are a coward, mr. Doe. It's time that truth be told.

I was waiting for one Priore, D. to get the ball rolling, then I'd get up and yell "yeah - it's ALL wrong !"

Although... it would have been so much more amusing - not to mention valid - had Mr. Parks got up and hollered "Actually, changed my mind - it's not "indians" at all, it's "Endians", y'know, Gulliver's Travels and all that. Nothing to do with Americana at all". 

[The Heartical Don]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

The biggest disappointment on 2/20/04 was that no-one stood up during Smile and yelled "NO ! It doesn't go like that !!".  

Odd, yes. I'd figured that the expert entitled to such a brave act of total authoritative intelligence and knowledge would have been one Andrew G. Doe. You are a coward, mr. Doe. It's time that truth be told.

I was waiting for one Priore, D. to get the ball rolling, then I'd get up and yell "yeah - it's ALL wrong !"

Although... it would have been so much more amusing - not to mention valid - had Mr. Parks got up and hollered "Actually, changed my mind - it's not "indians" at all, it's "Endians", y'know, Gulliver's Travels and all that. Nothing to do with Americana at all".  

 

[Bicyclerider]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Your reasoning is a bit specious - In 2003 Brian decided the order of a "Smile suite" to be performed live, using bits and pieces of the original smile recordings as he and Van Dyke and Darian saw fit, with some new lyrics and orchestrated link sections.  after the acclaim accorded the live performances he recorded the live Smile suite for an album "Brian Wilson Presents Smile. " This is what he presented us and "finished" - nothing more.  When asked if BWPS was how the album would have been if finished in 1967, the answer was no.  BWPS was done and complete as a work, but NOT the original "Smile" - which of course at this time could never be finished as it might have been in 1967, too much time and brain damage and drugs and mental illness in the intervening years.

So it's still an open question what Brian had in mind for Smile in 1967, what would have been included and excluded, how songs would be finished, etc.  Of course, if to you BWPS is a perfect realization of the Smile music and you aren't interested in the original recordings or how Brian was piecing them together back in the day, all these issues are irrelevant.

[D409]

BWPS is the best possible compromise of Smile that there could've been. The '67 sessions, 1/2 hour on the GV boxset and bootlegs I've heard have a certain something about them, a presence that BWPS doesn't have, but BWPS should be enjoyed for it's own sake. Seeing the Smile show in 2004, it was just incredible to hear how all these fragments fitted together, how some sections (Do You Like Worms ?, Holidays, etc) now had words where previously they didn't. I find the Tony Asher lyrics for GV a little jarring when the proper lyrics shoud've really been used, but that doesn't detract from the enjoyment of Smile 2004. The 2nd Movement is probably the finest section IMO, an outstanding piece of music by anyone's standards.
I'm new to this forum, but have been fascinated by the legend of Smile for many years now, via boots, the boxset and my well-thumbed copy of LLVS (even though I'm in agreement with Andrew G. Doe about some of Domenic Priore's theories not holding water), so to see Smile as a completed work in any shape or form was a wonderful thing ! It was also a pleasure, by the way, to have the best seats in the house when watching Brian and his stellar musicians perform it (first tickets sold, 4 feet away from Brian !)

[letsmakeit31]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

The biggest disappointment on 2/20/04 was that no-one stood up during Smile and yelled "NO ! It doesn't go like that !!". 

In what way do you mean Andrew? For me the beauty of Smile is how we can all change it around and have fun with it all, which we couldn't of done had Brian finished and released the album in 67, which makes me feel both sad and happy

[Chris Moise]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Strongly disagree. It doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought in 1965. The fact is Brian said "Let Him Run Wild" isn't a good record. Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. And that's that. John Lennon hought I Am the Walrus wasn't a good production. Artist are often too close to their work to appreciate or judge it. What matters is the emotions the music evokes in the listner. The nth generation cassette dub of the '66 CITFOTM backing track takes me somewhere the '04 version doesn't approach. Whether BW deems the 2004 version 'finished' isn't a factor in my appreciation of the '66 version.

My beef with the 2004 additions is not that BW dared work on them decades later, it's that they suck. The Holidays lyrics, the "is it hot as hell" bit, the fake tack piano sounds. Almost all of the new stuff, like it or not, doesn't gel with the '66 stuff. Kind of like the CGI stuff Lucas added to the first Star Wars film. The 'Look' vocal melody is an exception, that totally works. Just my .02. Maybe it is sour grapes because we *still* don't have the most finished '66-'67 versions in existence. Not only that but apparently BW, Van Dyke and Darian didn't have the acetates that document Brian's final work on the original sessions. Why cobble IIGS together and write new lyrics to CITFOTM without listening to the most complete original versions? (I'm assuming that the various unheard acetates known to exist includes those two titles..)

[Jim V.]

I guess it really doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought about what belonged where in 1967. Because in 2003 or 2004 he decided the order of SMiLE and that is that. I know I made a thread about what everybody thinks would have been on there or whatever, but the facts are Brian "presented" us the album in '04 and he also said it is "finished". Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. The artist behind the work said it is done, and released it. And thats that.

Strongly disagree. It doesn't matter anymore what Brian may have thought in 1965. The fact is Brian said "Let Him Run Wild" isn't a good record. Whether or not any of us agree is not of any consequence. And that's that. John Lennon hought I Am the Walrus wasn't a good production. Artist are often too close to their work to appreciate or judge it. What matters is the emotions the music evokes in the listner. The nth generation cassette dub of the '66 CITFOTM backing track takes me somewhere the '04 version doesn't approach. Whether BW deems the 2004 version 'finished' isn't a factor in my appreciation of the '66 version.

My beef with the 2004 additions is not that BW dared work on them decades later, it's that they suck. The Holidays lyrics, the "is it hot as hell" bit, the fake tack piano sounds. Almost all of the new stuff, like it or not, doesn't gel with the '66 stuff. Kind of like the CGI stuff Lucas added to the first Star Wars film. The 'Look' vocal melody is an exception, that totally works. Just my .02. Maybe it is sour grapes because we *still* don't have the most finished '66-'67 versions in existence. Not only that but apparently BW, Van Dyke and Darian didn't have the acetates that document Brian's final work on the original sessions. Why cobble IIGS together and write new lyrics to CITFOTM without listening to the most complete original versions? (I'm assuming that the various unheard acetates known to exist includes those two titles..)

I actually agree with you. I prefer the original sessions stuff too. My only point was that the SMiLE album was released by Brian Wilson. Those are the versions he chose to put out. That doesn't mean we have to enjoy "Do You Like Worms" any less than "Roll Plymouth Rock". Honestly, I think the "Holidays" lyrics do suck, along with the "In Blue Hawaii" lyrics. And I also think "Holidays" was probably dismissed by Brian by the time they gave Capitol the song title list. Same with "Look". And I also feel "I Love To Say Da Da" reached fruition as "Cool Cool Water", so I didn't see the point in rewriting it as "In Blue Hawaii".

However, SMiLE is Brian and Van Dyke's work, so guess what, they got the last word on what it is (or isn't).

One other thing though, what is this about the acetates of Brian's final work on the original sessions? Are you saying there is more unbooted stuff that even Brian didn't have access to in '03? Where is it? Is it in the Brother vaults?

[LostArt]

I assume that all of the living Beach Boys have acetates or tapes.   Bruce has said that he has some stuff, and I think Al has said the same.  The legendary Durrie Parks acetates may or may not exist.  I wouldn't be surprised if Anderle or Vosse or another of the insiders of the time had recordings.  Whether any of this stuff is the same as what we've already heard, or a full CIFTTM with lyrics, or even in playable condition after all of these years will remain a mystery until the recordings are made available.  I'm starting to lose hope of hearing anything new (to us), but one never knows. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

I assume that all of the living Beach Boys have acetates or tapes.   Bruce has said that he has some stuff, and I think Al has said the same. 

I doubt Mike has anything: Bruce certainly does, and Alan too. Oddly, I really don't think Brian has anything kicking around in the closets at home.

The legendary Durrie Parks acetates may or may not exist. 

They do.

I wouldn't be surprised if Anderle or Vosse or another of the insiders of the time had recordings.  Whether any of this stuff is the same as what we've already heard, or a full CIFTTM with lyrics, or even in playable condition after all of these years will remain a mystery until the recordings are made available.  I'm starting to lose hope of hearing anything new (to us), but one never knows. 

Excellent point - acetates tend to give up the ghost after 20-30 plays, and I doubt they were treated with much respect in the first place.