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Author Topic: How good a guitar player was Carl?  (Read 33019 times)
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« Reply #75 on: January 03, 2011, 06:31:59 AM »

Does anyone else wish that Rhino were in charge of The Beach Boys catalogue? I say this as the care and detail Rhino put in to the deluxe editions etc put Capitol to shame.


We also appear to have gone very far off topic!
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« Reply #76 on: January 03, 2011, 11:08:16 AM »

Does anyone else wish that Rhino were in charge of The Beach Boys catalogue? I say this as the care and detail Rhino put in to the deluxe editions etc put Capitol to shame.

I said this years ago - Rhino became established as a company thanks to their reissuing all of the Monkees vinyl albums in the 80's (I bought them, most were under ten bucks US at the time!), and apart from the Arista "Greatest Hits" album at that same time the Monkees and their music became almost a keystone of the Rhino brand.

As a result, Rhino has continued to treat the Monkees catalog of music, television shows, and films/specials with a great deal of care and respect for the band. And, the big part of it, they gave the fans products which the fans were asking for! Knowing something like an expensive 3CD box set of raw session material was for a small niche market, they issued it with great sound and covered their bottom line by making it a "limited edition" on their Rhino Handmade special label. They did the same with their multi-disc set of concert tapes from the Monkees 1967 tour, again an expensive niche item BUT it was available for those fans who asked for it. And the items sold to those fans. Try to find an original Headquarters Sessions box today.

This is only the Monkees, remember - Rhino has some reissues from many artists and collections too which set the bar high for other labels looking to do the same thing.

But the bottom line is they treated both their fans/consumers and the Monkees themselves with respect and did it "right". The material was "new", the sound was good, and the packaging was usually solid with plenty of goodies and info. Their website off and on features exclusive interviews with members of these bands too, totally free.

The Beach Boys since the 90's have had moments of greatness in the reissues - like the Pet Sounds box set, the '93 band box set, the original 2-fers, but overall, taking every product released since that box set, do we really need yet another hits package with "summer" in the title? Am I wrong to suggest there have been more stalled projects in the past 10 years around the Beach Boys archive releases than there have been actual releases of new material? (remixes don't count) How about the behind-the-scenes struggles which as far as I know if certain parties had their way the Pet Sounds Sessions box would have never come out and the then-unreleased Smile material would have been left off the 1993 box.

Look to the way Rhino handles their Monkees catalog, those in power and those members in the band who have issues with rare material, and *that* might just be what the more loyal Beach Boys fans have been looking for and are willing to pay for, as did those loyal Monkees fans who continue to buy the band's music on Rhino.
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« Reply #77 on: January 03, 2011, 12:44:22 PM »

But as I was saying about the Monkees...nah, just kidding!

Keep in mind how many people with differing agendas have to sign off on a Beach Boys project.  For everyone one thing one of us might want released, there's someone else to say "no."

But having said that, I think it's a fair point that Capitol hasn't always had the best vision with regards to how to repackage the BBs.
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« Reply #78 on: January 03, 2011, 01:29:31 PM »

But as I was saying about the Monkees...nah, just kidding!

Keep in mind how many people with differing agendas have to sign off on a Beach Boys project.  For everyone one thing one of us might want released, there's someone else to say "no."

But having said that, I think it's a fair point that Capitol hasn't always had the best vision with regards to how to repackage the BBs.

Going back to day one. Given the task of selecting 12 tracks to represent the best of the band's music 1961-1965, how many of us would have chosen the following ?

Surfin' USA
Catch A Wave
Surfer Girl
Little Deuce Coupe
In My Room
Little Honda
Fun, Fun, Fun
The Warmth Of the Sun
Louie Louie
You're So Good To Me
Wendy

Even if all you did was go by chart positions, you'd still get something more representative:

Surfin' Safari
Surfin' USA
Surfer Girl
Be True To Your School
Fun, Fun, Fun
I Get Around
When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
Dance, Dance, Dance
Do You Wanna Dance
Help Me Rhonda
California Girls
Barbara Ann
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« Reply #79 on: January 03, 2011, 02:18:33 PM »

Going back to day one. Given the task of selecting 12 tracks to represent the best of the band's music 1961-1965, how many of us would have chosen the following ?

Surfin' USA
Catch A Wave
Surfer Girl
Little Deuce Coupe
In My Room
Little Honda
Fun, Fun, Fun
The Warmth Of the Sun
Louie Louie
You're So Good To Me
Wendy

Even if all you did was go by chart positions, you'd still get something more representative:

Surfin' Safari
Surfin' USA
Surfer Girl
Be True To Your School
Fun, Fun, Fun
I Get Around
When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
Dance, Dance, Dance
Do You Wanna Dance
Help Me Rhonda
California Girls
Barbara Ann


Yeah, but if you go with that tracklist, you haven't saved any of their big hits for Vol. 2.
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« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2011, 02:49:40 PM »

Going back to day one. Given the task of selecting 12 tracks to represent the best of the band's music 1961-1965, how many of us would have chosen the following ?

Surfin' USA
Catch A Wave
Surfer Girl
Little Deuce Coupe
In My Room
Little Honda
Fun, Fun, Fun
The Warmth Of the Sun
Louie Louie
You're So Good To Me
Wendy

Even if all you did was go by chart positions, you'd still get something more representative:

Surfin' Safari
Surfin' USA
Surfer Girl
Be True To Your School
Fun, Fun, Fun
I Get Around
When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
Dance, Dance, Dance
Do You Wanna Dance
Help Me Rhonda
California Girls
Barbara Ann


Yeah, but if you go with that tracklist, you haven't saved any of their big hits for Vol. 2.

But in March 1966, who knew if they were going to have any more hits ?
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« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2011, 03:09:06 PM »

Going back to day one. Given the task of selecting 12 tracks to represent the best of the band's music 1961-1965, how many of us would have chosen the following ?

Surfin' USA
Catch A Wave
Surfer Girl
Little Deuce Coupe
In My Room
Little Honda
Fun, Fun, Fun
The Warmth Of the Sun
Louie Louie
You're So Good To Me
Wendy

Even if all you did was go by chart positions, you'd still get something more representative:

Surfin' Safari
Surfin' USA
Surfer Girl
Be True To Your School
Fun, Fun, Fun
I Get Around
When I Grow Up (To Be A Man)
Dance, Dance, Dance
Do You Wanna Dance
Help Me Rhonda
California Girls
Barbara Ann


Yeah, but if you go with that tracklist, you haven't saved any of their big hits for Vol. 2.

But in March 1966, who knew if they were going to have any more hits ?

Not Capitol, that's for sure.
That's why they saved songs for a Volume 2.
Why waste it all at once, when you can double your $$?
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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2011, 04:27:28 PM »

I always find it amusing that "Be True To Your School" peaked far higher than any of the songs people generally quite lovingly associate with the BBs today -- "In My Room", "The Warmth Of The Sun", "Surfer Girl", and "Don't Worry Baby" chief among them. Curious that they're all the melancholy ones that folks seem to be most appreciative beyond the more obvious mega-hits like "California GIrls" and "I Get Around" and whatnot.
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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2011, 10:37:35 PM »

1966 is not 2011, though, and haven't archive releases from other labels and other bands shown what is possible and who will buy it? I was in Best Buy last week and there were two archive sets prominently on display: The Springsteen set and the Exile On Main Street set, two releases from major label artists featuring outtakes, rare tracks, unreleased stuff, photos, full histories and liners, etc. These single-album focused archival projects would not be released if there were no market for it, period.

And wade through the pages of the 2011 Box Set thread on this same forum, and see just a sample of what fans who really care about the band's music are hoping to see and how informed they are about the music. Are they asking for a "Be True To Your School" stereo remix? Or another summer fun hits malt shop compilation? I doubt it!

Again I say look at the way Rhino handled the Monkees entire recorded output including video to see how it can be done when it's done with respect on all sides.


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« Reply #84 on: January 04, 2011, 08:11:45 AM »

Its no bulletin to anyone that Rhino has a better handle on the pulse of the niche market of collector/fan than Capitol/EMI. That's their thing. But what's the point going on about that here? Its decades old news. The BB's have shown they aren't really committed to that approach. Should we dream that the BB's had signed a long term licensing agreement with Rhino instead of Capitol? They didn't. They signed up with Capitol/EMI. And in fact the folks behind the scenes who propose great new hardcore-fan-friendly BB's product on a regular basis are constantly shot down by not only the corporate hierarchy at Capitol/EMI, but often a majority of the four BRI members themselves who are more interested in releasing more greatest hits compilations because Sounds of Summer made tons of money, and they don't really care about unreleased stuff and outtakes. Comparing Rhino to the current BB's/Capitol situation is like saying wow I wish King-Cab Long-Bed four wheel drive pickups got gas mileage like a Prius because that would be so much cooler. The Beach Boys want to keep driving the big truck as if its 1985.
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« Reply #85 on: January 04, 2011, 09:49:35 AM »

Its no bulletin to anyone that Rhino has a better handle on the pulse of the niche market of collector/fan than Capitol/EMI. That's their thing. But what's the point going on about that here? Its decades old news. The BB's have shown they aren't really committed to that approach. Should we dream that the BB's had signed a long term licensing agreement with Rhino instead of Capitol? They didn't. They signed up with Capitol/EMI. And in fact the folks behind the scenes who propose great new hardcore-fan-friendly BB's product on a regular basis are constantly shot down by not only the corporate hierarchy at Capitol/EMI, but often a majority of the four BRI members themselves who are more interested in releasing more greatest hits compilations because Sounds of Summer made tons of money, and they don't really care about unreleased stuff and outtakes. Comparing Rhino to the current BB's/Capitol situation is like saying wow I wish King-Cab Long-Bed four wheel drive pickups got gas mileage like a Prius because that would be so much cooler. The Beach Boys want to keep driving the big truck as if its 1985.

Well, it is fun to dream...

To me, it's just puzzling that the people ultimately responsible for BB releases are not more aware of what's going on out there.  If money is the bottom line, there are better ways to do it than they are doing it.

The greatest hits packages obviously still do sell, but for how long is that going to be the case?  I work in a bookstore that also sells music.  I've seen the CD section shrink down to probably 40% of what it once was.  And it continues to shrink.  We carry the Beach Boys, and they don't sell.  We did sell a couple of the new greatest hits thingies, but we don't sell any twofers, and I don't even think I've sold a Pet Sounds in a long time.

The reason for this, I think, among others, is that both record companies and record stores have groomed the public to not buy records.  If a record store carefully selected its stock based on what people actually want to buy, it could get by on a lot less stock on hand.  And record companies have to make products that are specifically tailored to what people want.  There are still ways to make money off the Beach Boys music.  If only the record executives were as creative at what they do as Brian Wilson was at what he does...
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« Reply #86 on: January 04, 2011, 09:58:23 AM »

Its no bulletin to anyone that Rhino has a better handle on the pulse of the niche market of collector/fan than Capitol/EMI. That's their thing. But what's the point going on about that here? Its decades old news. The BB's have shown they aren't really committed to that approach. Should we dream that the BB's had signed a long term licensing agreement with Rhino instead of Capitol? They didn't. They signed up with Capitol/EMI. And in fact the folks behind the scenes who propose great new hardcore-fan-friendly BB's product on a regular basis are constantly shot down by not only the corporate hierarchy at Capitol/EMI, but often a majority of the four BRI members themselves who are more interested in releasing more greatest hits compilations because Sounds of Summer made tons of money, and they don't really care about unreleased stuff and outtakes. Comparing Rhino to the current BB's/Capitol situation is like saying wow I wish King-Cab Long-Bed four wheel drive pickups got gas mileage like a Prius because that would be so much cooler. The Beach Boys want to keep driving the big truck as if its 1985.

While you make a valid point, I'd like to think there's room in the market to satisfy all factions of the BB's fanbase. Of course Rarities comps don't make them as much money as "Best Of"s, but then how many more hats does Mike really need to buy?
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« Reply #87 on: January 04, 2011, 10:43:29 AM »

What I'm saying is that their record company doesn't care because they are a dinosaur and a sinking ship, and that the BB's don't care because they are...too comfortable. So who's left to care? The guys behind the scenes banging their heads against the wall, they care, and they are increasingly frustrated  as they pitch ideas to a sinking ship and some crabby old guys who aren't very interested. Of course all of this could change tomorrow...but don't hold your breath.
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« Reply #88 on: January 04, 2011, 10:45:58 AM »

Its no bulletin to anyone that Rhino has a better handle on the pulse of the niche market of collector/fan than Capitol/EMI. That's their thing. But what's the point going on about that here? Its decades old news. The BB's have shown they aren't really committed to that approach. Should we dream that the BB's had signed a long term licensing agreement with Rhino instead of Capitol? They didn't. They signed up with Capitol/EMI. And in fact the folks behind the scenes who propose great new hardcore-fan-friendly BB's product on a regular basis are constantly shot down by not only the corporate hierarchy at Capitol/EMI, but often a majority of the four BRI members themselves who are more interested in releasing more greatest hits compilations because Sounds of Summer made tons of money, and they don't really care about unreleased stuff and outtakes. Comparing Rhino to the current BB's/Capitol situation is like saying wow I wish King-Cab Long-Bed four wheel drive pickups got gas mileage like a Prius because that would be so much cooler. The Beach Boys want to keep driving the big truck as if its 1985.

While you make a valid point, I'd like to think there's room in the market to satisfy all factions of the BB's fanbase. Of course Rarities comps don't make them as much money as "Best Of"s, but then how many more hats does Mike really need to buy?

Yeah, we all want to dream....  
Capitol and the BBs don't/won't care what the fans want, until their reissue products stop selling. Period.
As long as they can add a track or two, and still sell the damn things , they will. If those darn completist fans would just stop buying them, we'd have a chance for better releases.
So, everyone here needs to pledge to now and henceforth refuse to purchase any and all releases that are of this ilk, with no exceptions.  
Can you do it?
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« Reply #89 on: January 04, 2011, 10:48:37 AM »

What I'm saying is that their record company doesn't care because they are a dinosaur and a sinking ship, and that the BB's don't care because they are...too comfortable. So who's left to care? The guys behind the scenes banging their heads against the wall, they care, and they are increasingly frustrated  as they pitch ideas to a sinking ship and some crabby old guys who aren't very interested. Of course all of this could change tomorrow...but don't hold your breath.

...Well we got POB and Bambu at least. Holy Man anyone?

Yer right though, the ones who care the most about the music have the least amount of pull. That be the way it is, homies.
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« Reply #90 on: January 04, 2011, 10:51:03 AM »

As long as they can add a track or two, and still sell the damn things , they will. If those darn completist fans would just stop buying them, we'd have a chance for better releases.
So, everyone here needs to pledge to now and henceforth refuse to purchase any and all releases that are of this ilk, with no exceptions.  
Can you do it?

I haven't bought Sounds of Summer or Summer Love Songs yet...not even sure what new stereo versions are on them...but for the two songs I'd like to hear on each record I'm not going to buy for the sole fact that I don't need 37 copies of Catch A Wave and all it's brethren.
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« Reply #91 on: January 04, 2011, 11:09:34 AM »

As long as they can add a track or two, and still sell the damn things , they will. If those darn completist fans would just stop buying them, we'd have a chance for better releases.
So, everyone here needs to pledge to now and henceforth refuse to purchase any and all releases that are of this ilk, with no exceptions.  
Can you do it?

I haven't bought Sounds of Summer or Summer Love Songs yet...not even sure what new stereo versions are on them...but for the two songs I'd like to hear on each record I'm not going to buy for the sole fact that I don't need 37 copies of Catch A Wave and all it's brethren.

I really recommend Summer Love Songs. The stereo version of 'Don't Worry Baby' is fantastic, as well as many other 09 stereo remixes. Even with all the Beach Boys albums I have collected in the last year and a half (since buying Summer Loves Songs) I'd definitely still by SLS for it's beautiful stereo mixes.
____

With the success that the Beatles and Bob Dylan had with their mono boxsets it would only make sense that America's Band would do the same (especially with their 50th coming up)....along with it (not unlike Dylan's 'Witmark Demos') It would only make sense that they would issue a 'rarities' album along with it.
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« Reply #92 on: January 04, 2011, 11:41:06 AM »

What Jon said.

Also, and I say this having recently joined a once-successful '60s band, it's easy to forget that people inside a band do not have the same perspective that a fan does, and because of that can make moves that make perfect sense to their reality, but have fans slapping their foreheads in dismay.  They just ain't where we're at. and the education can be slow and painful (if it happens at all).
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« Reply #93 on: January 04, 2011, 11:44:18 AM »

can make moves that make perfect sense to their reality, but have fans slapping their foreheads in dismay. 

It's just that the Beach Boys have a special knack at this, if you will, a God-given talent...
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« Reply #94 on: January 04, 2011, 11:51:23 AM »

Its no bulletin to anyone that Rhino has a better handle on the pulse of the niche market of collector/fan than Capitol/EMI. That's their thing. But what's the point going on about that here? Its decades old news. The BB's have shown they aren't really committed to that approach. Should we dream that the BB's had signed a long term licensing agreement with Rhino instead of Capitol? They didn't. They signed up with Capitol/EMI. And in fact the folks behind the scenes who propose great new hardcore-fan-friendly BB's product on a regular basis are constantly shot down by not only the corporate hierarchy at Capitol/EMI, but often a majority of the four BRI members themselves who are more interested in releasing more greatest hits compilations because Sounds of Summer made tons of money, and they don't really care about unreleased stuff and outtakes. Comparing Rhino to the current BB's/Capitol situation is like saying wow I wish King-Cab Long-Bed four wheel drive pickups got gas mileage like a Prius because that would be so much cooler. The Beach Boys want to keep driving the big truck as if its 1985.

The point of going on about it here is that someone brought it up, a lot of new eyes are reading this stuff who weren't into it 10/20/30 years ago, and it's worth putting on the table for discussion. And if someone reads it and word travels, who knows whose eyes and ears it might reach and spur something on. That's dreaming, sure, but it's definitely on the minds of a lot of fans like myself who think the back catalog and the "unreleased" catalog has a bigger market than some might think.

Back to Rhino - they also consistently release the same kinds of "greatest hits" compilations which sell to the more casual fans, alongside the deluxe editions for the veteran fans.

It is incredible for me - and I work daily with young musicians - to see how much of this "older" music is being rediscovered by younger listeners who know none of the backstory. How heartening and emotional was it for me as a musician and Monkees fan to search YouTube and find teens and pre-teens playing obscure Monkees songs on their own, or with groups and summer camps like the "School Of Rock" franchise of schools who have hosted Monkees tribute nights where kids as young as 11 or 12 are on stage playing the tunes. That is awesome to me, since the music is 45 years old.

The market is there!
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« Reply #95 on: January 04, 2011, 12:45:21 PM »

I was working for Rhino in '81 to '84 which was right about the time they took their initial steps toward going "all in" regarding the Monkees. Since I was a hardcore fan I voiced my support, and also reminded them that the Beach Boys catalog was attractive. They made gestures toward the Beach Boys many times but were rebuffed.
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« Reply #96 on: January 04, 2011, 01:11:19 PM »

The Kinks are another '60's' group who sell primarily to the "Greatest Hits" crowd but have also been given the deluxe edition treatment as of late. Some of their best works by far are the more obscure stuff. Ray Davies has always been keen to show the public there's more to him than just "You Really Got Me" and "Sunny Afternoon" etc. Why can't our group be the same?
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« Reply #97 on: January 04, 2011, 02:59:57 PM »

Man, those Kinks reissues from years back (the early albums through the Lola album) were awesome. I had them all but sold them, back when selling CDs actually got you some cash, thinking I could always buy them again. Now they're all out of print  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #98 on: January 04, 2011, 03:34:45 PM »

The Kinks are another '60's' group who sell primarily to the "Greatest Hits" crowd but have also been given the deluxe edition treatment as of late. Some of their best works by far are the more obscure stuff. Ray Davies has always been keen to show the public there's more to him than just "You Really Got Me" and "Sunny Afternoon" etc. Why can't our group be the same?

That, right there, is your problem. As I think Stebbins and co. have laid out time and time again, none of the surviving Beach Boys -- to say nothing of their label -- is interested in such releases. It's not simply a matter of one or the other parties (the label or the group) disagreeing on what to release or one party attempting to convince the other it's a worthwhile project. It's that neither the label nor the group are interested. No matter the fan/collector support, it doesn't seem like they're suddenly going to become interested after what is likely a decade, if not more, of inquiries on the matter.

It is in these cases that I find leaked or even, yes, bootlegged material to be of value...
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« Reply #99 on: January 04, 2011, 03:53:16 PM »

I suspect you're absolutely right, but then how did we manage to get the Capitol 2-fers and the Brother Records reissues of 2000?
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