12-67 footage never before seen.

[hypehat]

Okay, this question just has to be asked:

Would this have been good enough for Monterey ? Remember that the mix isn't very good here (guitars are much too silent). But ever since Bruce started playing bass the drive was gone as "Barbara Ann" shows clearly.

Even with the guitars mixed the way they are, the group are seriously lacking power, and imo did until they got the huge backing groups of the 70's in place. I don't think the lack of Brian on the bass is that big of a deal - Bruce sounds fine, and Carl and Al were probably focussing on their harmonies at the expense of 'rock'.

I think they rocked quite well from late '68 on (such as on "Live In London"), mostly due to Denny's spirited drumming...but also listen to the guitars (and bass, and horns) on that version of "Aren't You Glad"...much better IMO than the studio cut.

They still sound really thin on that, though - Denny is drumming much better there than in '67, too, much stronger. Although that Barbara Ann Rocker posted has some serious balls, i think that's down to Denny belting that rhythm.

I think the guitars were the problem, in all seriousness. Those strats have such a thin sound (i've recently borrowed a friends due to my les paul being back in london and the difference is more than i expected), and those solos really do suffer. They still sound a bit like a surf group (a loaded term in relation to the group), with that garage sound, as opposed to a 'rock' group with a heavy, big amps and crunchy tone thing like The Who, or Hendrix - The Who only had one guitarist, and they sounded heavier than Carl and Al combined! I don't think the 'rock' approach would have suited them, but thats what would have suited Monterrey imo.

It's not like it's Carl and Al's problem, though, they're still focussing on those harmonies. Poor Al doing Brian parts he couldn't even sing! No wonder his guitar playing suffered. Should have brought in the big groups earlier, i think. The early 70's bb's was feasible in the 67-69 period, i think, in terms of the size and power of the band, although i am merely speculating.

[Smilin Ed H]

"Poor Al doing Brian parts he couldn't even sing"

I think he's doing a pretty good job

[hypehat]

He does ok, but i'm thinking more along the lines of him always getting lost with the falsettos in GOK or Don't Worry Baby...

[Rocker]

Okay, this question just has to be asked:

Would this have been good enough for Monterey ? Remember that the mix isn't very good here (guitars are much too silent). But ever since Bruce started playing bass the drive was gone as "Barbara Ann" shows clearly.

Even with the guitars mixed the way they are, the group are seriously lacking power, and imo did until they got the huge backing groups of the 70's in place. I don't think the lack of Brian on the bass is that big of a deal - Bruce sounds fine, and Carl and Al were probably focussing on their harmonies at the expense of 'rock'.

I think they rocked quite well from late '68 on (such as on "Live In London"), mostly due to Denny's spirited drumming...but also listen to the guitars (and bass, and horns) on that version of "Aren't You Glad"...much better IMO than the studio cut.

Definitely, but '66 -'67 was just kinda embarassing if you compare it with say '64. Thankfully we have the two '66 shows which give a perfect view.

I think the guitars were the problem, in all seriousness. Those strats have such a thin sound

I might've misunderstood you, but there are no Strats on the '67 footage

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Great find!!! Im still trying to figure out who is singing the falsetto.
Its not Brian is it? It sounds like Brian.
I dont see him but then the rest of the guys seems to be singing Ba Ba Barbara Ann at the same time.
Usually Bruce would sing Brian's falsetto but he is clearly singing with the rest of the guys.

Any thoughts?

I am pretty sure that's Al given that he has his own mic. Plus he does sing the high part quite often and sounds a lot like Brian.

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Great find!!! Im still trying to figure out who is singing the falsetto.
Its not Brian is it? It sounds like Brian.
I dont see him but then the rest of the guys seems to be singing Ba Ba Barbara Ann at the same time.
Usually Bruce would sing Brian's falsetto but he is clearly singing with the rest of the guys.

Any thoughts?

I am pretty sure that's Al given that he has his own mic. Plus he does sing the high part quite often and sounds a lot like Brian.

Ok, somehow, two pages popped up on this thread while I was still typing.

[guitarfool2002]

I think the guitars were the problem, in all seriousness. Those strats have such a thin sound (i've recently borrowed a friends due to my les paul being back in london and the difference is more than i expected), and those solos really do suffer. They still sound a bit like a surf group (a loaded term in relation to the group), with that garage sound, as opposed to a 'rock' group with a heavy, big amps and crunchy tone thing like The Who, or Hendrix - The Who only had one guitarist, and they sounded heavier than Carl and Al combined! I don't think the 'rock' approach would have suited them, but thats what would have suited Monterrey imo.

It's not like it's Carl and Al's problem, though, they're still focussing on those harmonies. Poor Al doing Brian parts he couldn't even sing! No wonder his guitar playing suffered. Should have brought in the big groups earlier, i think. The early 70's bb's was feasible in the 67-69 period, i think, in terms of the size and power of the band, although i am merely speculating.

But the funny thing is that *both* Hendrix and Townshend played Fender Strats at Monterey! Al "Blind Owl" Wilson played a Fender Mustang for Canned Heat that day and tore up the blues, and Mustangs are notoriously thin-sounding guitars, yet Wilson cuts through the mix just fine.

I am more and more convinced that it is the player more than the guitar responsible for the great tone or lack thereof. Not saying there aren't really bad guitars out there, but if you put a budget Strat in the hands of someone like Jack White or John Frusciante today, it will still sound like Jack White and John Frusciante.

I'm also a firm believer in certain guitar-amp combinations being better matches than others. The Fender guitar through Fender amp sound defined pop guitar recordings in the 60's, and if you plug a Strat or a Tele into a Deluxe or a Twin today, it still sounds amazing, of course depending on the player. Put a Les Paul through a valve Marshall or HiWatt or Orange and you'll get "that sound" again depending on who is playing it. Put a 60's Strat through an old Marshall as Frusciante had done and you might just channel some of Jimi's classic rhythm tones if you know the style.

As much as there could have been a poor mix, or poor quality amps for that show (an even greater possibility) I'd point the finger at Al and Carl themselves as guitarists at that time much more than saying it was because they're using Fender guitars.

I'm a Fender guy, BTW...

[bgas]

Saw Jeff Beck on a PBS special last night,playing a Les Paul tribute show.
THAT was a-fucking-mazing! 
I love guitars( tho I don't play fer crap) and I'm always awed by the different sounds different brands make; I'd expect an electric guitar to be, an electric guitar, with no real differences.
 a pickup is a pickup, right?

[Steve Mayo]

 a pickup is a pickup, right?

they are on the street corners in my home town,,, 

[guitarfool2002]

Saw Jeff Beck on a PBS special last night,playing a Les Paul tribute show.
THAT was a-friggin'-mazing! 
I love guitars( tho I don't play fer crap) and I'm always awed by the different sounds different brands make; I'd expect an electric guitar to be, an electric guitar, with no real differences.
 a pickup is a pickup, right?

Jeff Beck is one of a kind, a guitarist who somehow manages to sound revolutionary and different every time he plays, as he gets older. What other guitarist would have the guts to cover Surf's Up?

It's unreal how obsessive some folks are about guitar pickups - apparently Seymour Duncan and others in that field will go so far as to study the exact number of windings a certain classic pickup may have versus another from the same factory, installed in the same production run, and even wound by the same worker at the time, in a quest for that classic tone.

The fact that there were no computer-controlled parameters on things like that is what makes, say, Les Paul #76 from the 1959 run sound different than Les Paul #85 from the same run. It's what makes vintage guitars different than anything made where computers are involved in the process.

[hypehat]

Rocker, I coulda sworn.... it's that early onset alzheimers from the insignificant questions thread, i think 

I need to know more about guitars i suppose, but its preying on mind because for the life of me i can't get a decent sound out of this strat i borrowed from a friend. It could be more to do with the fact i've hadd my beloved cheap les paul copy for years, though. It's an interesting thing to think about.

And i didn't know that about the Strats at monterey either! I think i should poss step away from the board until i finish my course of antibiotics.

Btw, in he video, are they playing Gretchs? (sp?)

[c-man]

Rocker, I coulda sworn.... it's that early onset alzheimers from the insignificant questions thread, i think 

I need to know more about guitars i suppose, but its preying on mind because for the life of me i can't get a decent sound out of this strat i borrowed from a friend. It could be more to do with the fact i've hadd my beloved cheap les paul copy for years, though. It's an interesting thing to think about.

And i didn't know that about the Strats at monterey either! I think i should poss step away from the board until i finish my course of antibiotics.

Btw, in he video, are they playing Gretchs? (sp?)

In the video, they're playing Gibsons.  Unless one's an Epiphone.

[tpesky]

Dah I missed this...gone now!

[STE]

Dah I missed this...gone now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgIscI9NL_Y

[Ian]

That was amazing to see.  One of those performances that I wasn't sure still existed (though I kinda figured it did).  If Badman's book was reliable here-then they played more songs and the performance was truncated for TV.  Cool to see Ron Brown-maybe the only footage with him. He joined them for the short Oct 6-8 1967 tour (the last with striped shirts) and again in Nov 1967 (the first white suits tour) but was gone by the summer of 68.  Daryl wasn't on the short Oct 67 tour but was on the Nov 67 tour.    Clips keep turning up.  Although I haven't seen film-someone just turned me on to the fact that the audio from the BBs Aug 1969 app on Happening-with Paul Revere exists and I have heard audio of the now destroyed 1968 Carson appearance as well.   
I have to say that in my opinion-Barbara Ann was a poor choice for that show.  Just my personal opinion (and I know some people love it) but that song sounded dated about a day after they recorded it and sounds horribly out of sync with 1967.  It was decisions like that hurt the band at that time.  Putting out the right single and choosing the right songs to perform on TV were crucial in those days.  But then again-if they did perform more songs-then the TV crew decided what songs to use. 
Cool to see the BBs in their "flower power" look-Dennis with beads, Bruce with a stache. 

[tpesky]

For people who question Al's value to the band, especially the touring band, this performance should be Exhibit A to prove that otherwise! His voice is all over BA and the tag of GOK!

[Rocker]

Rocker, I coulda sworn.... it's that early onset alzheimers from the insignificant questions thread, i think 

I need to know more about guitars i suppose, but its preying on mind because for the life of me i can't get a decent sound out of this strat i borrowed from a friend. It could be more to do with the fact i've hadd my beloved cheap les paul copy for years, though. It's an interesting thing to think about.

And i didn't know that about the Strats at monterey either! I think i should poss step away from the board until i finish my course of antibiotics.

Btw, in he video, are they playing Gretchs? (sp?)

In the video, they're playing Gibsons.  Unless one's an Epiphone.

I believe in that interview with Billy about guitars, Carl mentioned an Epiphone during that time.

If Badman's book was reliable here-then they played more songs and the performance was truncated for TV

Well, there's definitely a cut before "O come all ye faithfull" and the Theremin (Tannerin?) indicates that Good Vibrations was played..... or IJWMFTT, but decide for yourself what's more likely   

[c-man]

Cool to see the BBs in their "flower power" look-Dennis with beads, Bruce with a stache. 

Remember, this was the show where Dennis met the Maharishi, and soon the five BBs (minus Bruce, plus Brian) were being inducted into the ways of TM.  That's as "flower power" as they would ever get.

[punkinhead]

Dennis' emotions during Oh Come All Ye Faithful is priceless. He really felt the music. Heck, you can see it when the guys perform Their Hearts were Full of Spring on Andy Williams, Dennis in the background mouthing the lyrics.
Now we need a video of him singing Hide Your Love Away, there's some Denny emotion there, I feel it.

[DSamore]

aghh! I just found this thread and the video is down. Any re-posts?! 

[Rocker]

Dennis' emotions during Oh Come All Ye Faithful is priceless. He really felt the music. Heck, you can see it when the guys perform Their Hearts were Full of Spring on Andy Williams, Dennis in the background mouthing the lyrics.

On Shindig he even sang with the other guys in the frontline

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jttr7zDfndw

[punkinhead]

It's amazing how spiritual the guys sound, even without Brian. Sure, it's Brian's vocal blend; (though I'm not saying he worked the parts out).


...I wanna picture Brian playing that organ with all the guys around him recording Smiley tunes.

[bgas]

aghh! I just found this thread and the video is down. Any re-posts?! 

You need to slide back a few posts...

[STE]

aghh! I just found this thread and the video is down. Any re-posts?! 

and, once again...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgIscI9NL_Y

[metal flake paint]

Well, there's definitely a cut before "O come all ye faithfull" and the Theremin (Tannerin?) indicates that Good Vibrations was played..... or IJWMFTT, but decide for yourself what's more likely   

According to Ian, Good Vibrations was also performed.