River Song demo

[buddhahat]

Ye

A 1973 KABC-TV clip, if I remember correctly. Never seen the clip, only ever heard the audio.

First off, thanks for reminding me of that clip, Andrew.  I have it stashed away, on some obsolete video format, and I haven't seen it in years. Need to get that one transferred.
As to this demo, I'll never know how this leaked out, but it never should have; Dennis would have a fit! It was actually my first attempt at mixing, and was done just for my friends in New York to hear.  (This was a band that Dennis & Carl bought out here, around the time of The Flame, to record an album).  I was heading to the city with The Boys, and asked Earle Mankey to run me a cassette of the song, so I could prove to these guys that Dennis was 'back in the game', so to speak...   (Edit to original post:)  Earle said he wouldn't take responsibility for doing the mix, however, he'd let me take a stab at it, and this was the result.  You can hear that I got so carried away with the percussion at the end, that the track just kind of ran out.
First time I heard it after that was on an early vinyl boot, and I almost flipped!  Not as badly as Dennis flipped, though, when he first heard my cassette mix.  He told me to stick to shooting & editing film & video, and leave the recording & mixing to him...

Ed Roach, I really enjoy your posts for obvious reasons. Thanks so much for taking the time to contribute these recollections to the smiley board.

[petsite]

A 1973 KABC-TV clip, if I remember correctly. Never seen the clip, only ever heard the audio.

First off, thanks for reminding me of that clip, Andrew.  I have it stashed away, on some obsolete video format, and I haven't seen it in years. Need to get that one transferred.
As to this demo, I'll never know how this leaked out, but it never should have; Dennis would have a fit! It was actually my first attempt at mixing, and was done just for my friends in New York to hear.  (This was a band that Dennis & Carl bought out here, around the time of The Flame, to record an album).  I was heading to the city with The Boys, and asked Earle Mankey to run me a cassette of the song, so I could prove to these guys that Dennis was 'back in the game', so to speak...   (Edit to original post:)  Earle said he wouldn't take responsibility for doing the mix, however, he'd let me take a stab at it, and this was the result.  You can hear that I got so carried away with the percussion at the end, that the track just kind of ran out. 
First time I heard it after that was on an early vinyl boot, and I almost flipped!  Not as badly as Dennis flipped, though, when he first heard my cassette mix.  He told me to stick to shooting & editing film & video, and leave the recording & mixing to him...

I am 51 and have been listening to this demo since the late 70's. And just today learned of it's origin. Wow. I wish my buddy Bob Hanes was still here!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Jay]

I'm a little confused. So, this isn't a "beach boys" recording, but an early pre POB version? I had always heard that The Beach Boys recorded a version. If you listen carefully to this recording, there is a voice at around eight to ten seconds into the recording that sounds like Carl to me.

Edit: Not enough people say this, but Ed Roach is probably the most valued poster here. 

[Jon Stebbins]

I'm a little confused. So, this isn't a "beach boys" recording, but an early pre POB version? I had always heard that The Beach Boys recorded a version. If you listen carefully to this recording, there is a voice at around eight to ten seconds into the recording that sounds like Carl to me.

Edit: Not enough people say this, but Ed Roach is probably the most valued poster here. 

As I stated earlier in the thread, this is the early building blocks of the POB version...the basic track in part. It began life as a Beach Boys recording in '73 or '74. Dennis took it and added an incredible amount of overdubs to it, plus he edited the s**t out of it. Carl is not only on this early mix, but he's clearly in the final POB mix...that's never been in question. He wasn't credited on the POB vinyl because of contractual limitations...but he's on numerous POB tracks. This is not a demo...its a rough mix of an early incarnation of the POB version of River Song before multitudes of work had been added to it...sigh. Ed is valuable for sure.

[Runaways]

Mr. Stebbins i find you just as valuable. 

[MBE]

I guess I like the finished one better but man I wish Dennis could have sung like he did in 1973 on his album.

[Curtis Leon]

I guess I like the finished one better but man I wish Dennis could have sung like he did in 1973 on his album.

Wish the POOPS sessions get released... Illegal or otherwise.

[c-man]

Gave this a listen again last night, through headphones...this time with the knowledge that Ed mixed it.  Great listening experience!  FYI, Carl and Billy are on guitars, Ricky on drums, Ed Carter on bass.

[busy doin nothin]

Gave this a listen again last night, through headphones...this time with the knowledge that Ed mixed it.  Great listening experience!  FYI, Carl and Billy are on guitars, Ricky on drums, Ed Carter on bass.

Thanks for the lineup, c-man.  I love the hard-rockin guitar on this mix of the song.  Carl and Billy sound great.  On the final POB mix, Denny seems to have really buried the guitars.  Both versions have incredible qualities -- I'm glad to have both.

[Andrew G. Doe]

On the final POB mix, Denny seems to have really buried the guitars. 

Denny didn't mix POB - he left that to Steve Moffitt, which drove Guercio (and Ed, I believe) up the wall... and rightly so, as the released mix could be a lot better. Did I recall reading somewhere that Moffit might have intentionally screwed it up ?

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

What?! Wow...if true...that's....just crazy .

[Jon Stebbins]

On the final POB mix, Denny seems to have really buried the guitars. 

Denny didn't mix POB - he left that to Steve Moffitt, which drove Guercio (and Ed, I believe) up the wall... and rightly so, as the released mix could be a lot better. Did I recall reading somewhere that Moffit might have intentionally screwed it up ?

I think Brian often lost interest when it came/comes to the mixing process as well. A Wilson trait is to be impatient, and be thinking about the next thing...next wave...next hamburger. That said, i've heard enough of the POB multi-tracks to know a re-mix of the LP could be revelatory...there's a lot of wonderful stuff buried in the mixes, and a lot of edits took away interesting pieces of the songs. Rainbows for instance had some great bits edited out. Now I doubt we can blame Moffitt for that. I guess Moffitt didn't like the fact that Dennis was a partier in and out of the studio... and that he liked to conduct sessions 24/7 instead of on some kind of responsible schedule. That tension may have led to a less than meticulous final mix of POB by Moffitt. There are a few rough mixes around that definitely show the final could have been better on at least a few tracks.  On the other hand, Hanlon and Guercio do have respect for a lot of what Moffitt did on POB, they've told me this more than once. Its not like a 100% bad or good thing. Dennis was mercurial, volatile, that was no secret. The label was quite surprised when a final product was delivered on time and with a reasonable budget when it came to POB. From what I've learned Jakobson, Mankey, Hanlon and Moffitt all helped that happen in their own way. All of them were gone before or by the earliest stages of Bambu...and we know how that worked out. But I vote yes on a POB remix LP with extra material, that could be cool.

[hypehat]

I thought i read here that the remastering process was more akin to a subtle remix?

[Andrew G. Doe]

I thought i read here that the remastering process was more akin to a subtle remix?

The remastering process is applied to the two-track stereo master tape, which you cannot remix. That's why it's called a 'master'.

[hypehat]

Must have misunderstood. I am aware what remastering is, i just thought they went back to the multitracks for POB.

[bgas]

I thought i read here that the remastering process was more akin to a subtle remix?

The remastering process is applied to the two-track stereo master tape, which you cannot remix. That's why it's called a 'master'.

But if you wanted to remix the "master" would you have to get "master Blaster"?

[Jon Stebbins]

Must have misunderstood. I am aware what remastering is, i just thought they went back to the multitracks for POB.

They went back to the multi-tracks for the Bambu portion and for the bonus tracks that were included on the Legacy POB because those 19 tracks required mixing as they only existed as rough mixes. But the 12 POB tracks were left as is, other than a fresh remaster.

[Ed Roach]

On the final POB mix, Denny seems to have really buried the guitars.  

Denny didn't mix POB - he left that to Steve Moffitt, which drove Guercio (and Ed, I believe) up the wall... and rightly so, as the released mix could be a lot better. Did I recall reading somewhere that Moffit might have intentionally screwed it up ?]

,
I think Brian often lost interest when it came/comes to the mixing process as well. A Wilson trait is to be impatient, and be thinking about the next thing...next wave...next hamburger. That said, i've heard enough of the POB multi-tracks to know a re-mix of the LP could be revelatory...there's a lot of wonderful stuff buried in the mixes, and a lot of edits took away interesting pieces of the songs. Rainbows for instance had some great bits edited out. Now I doubt we can blame Moffitt for that. I guess Moffitt didn't like the fact that Dennis was a partier in and out of the studio... and that he liked to conduct sessions 24/7 instead of on some kind of responsible schedule. That tension may have led to a less than meticulous final mix of POB by Moffitt. There are a few rough mixes around that definitely show the final could have been better on at least a few tracks.  On the other hand, Hanlon and Guercio do have respect for a lot of what Moffitt did on POB, they've told me this more than once. Its not like a 100% bad or good thing. Dennis was mercurial, volatile, that was no secret. The label was quite surprised when a final product was delivered on time and with a reasonable budget when it came to POB. From what I've learned Jakobson, Mankey, Hanlon and Moffitt all helped that happen in their own way. All of them were gone before or by the earliest stages of Bambu...and we know how that worked out. But I vote yes on a POB remix LP with extra material, that could be cool.

I started to edit your post, Jon, but then folks would have had to go back to read it in it's entirety - so I'll just add what I've been meaning to get to in this thread.  First off, if I'm one of the ones adding to the 'legend' that Moffitt mixed POB, that isn't my belief.  I believe that Steve took a lot of the 'balls' out of the mix in the mastering, however I do think Dennis was responsible for the final 'mixes'.  If he had a problem, it was in over-mixing; I often felt that he buried some of his most beautiful creations, losing them 'in the mix', in his search & stretch of boundaries.  (That's one of the reasons I cling to some of his earlier mixes that you've heard, Jon...)  I can state examples, (like "Moonshine"), if this discussion goes any further.  The thread kind of died off, however...

[adamghost]

I've worked with Earle Mankey both as a mixer and a mastering engineer and we've talked a bit both about the art of mastering and Dennis' PACIFIC OCEAN BLUE record and I think one of the problems is in order to have a clear mix, you really have to discipline the bottom end, and Dennis was (as Earle pointed out) in love with big, deep, resonant sounds....but you can only have so much of that before you sacrifice the clarity of the mix.  POB does work, and it has its own unique (if somewhat muddy) sound to it, but it's definitely got more low midrange than your average record, and that may be a lot of what you perceived, Ed.

[Jon Stebbins]

On the final POB mix, Denny seems to have really buried the guitars.  

Denny didn't mix POB - he left that to Steve Moffitt, which drove Guercio (and Ed, I believe) up the wall... and rightly so, as the released mix could be a lot better. Did I recall reading somewhere that Moffit might have intentionally screwed it up ?]

,
I think Brian often lost interest when it came/comes to the mixing process as well. A Wilson trait is to be impatient, and be thinking about the next thing...next wave...next hamburger. That said, i've heard enough of the POB multi-tracks to know a re-mix of the LP could be revelatory...there's a lot of wonderful stuff buried in the mixes, and a lot of edits took away interesting pieces of the songs. Rainbows for instance had some great bits edited out. Now I doubt we can blame Moffitt for that. I guess Moffitt didn't like the fact that Dennis was a partier in and out of the studio... and that he liked to conduct sessions 24/7 instead of on some kind of responsible schedule. That tension may have led to a less than meticulous final mix of POB by Moffitt. There are a few rough mixes around that definitely show the final could have been better on at least a few tracks.  On the other hand, Hanlon and Guercio do have respect for a lot of what Moffitt did on POB, they've told me this more than once. Its not like a 100% bad or good thing. Dennis was mercurial, volatile, that was no secret. The label was quite surprised when a final product was delivered on time and with a reasonable budget when it came to POB. From what I've learned Jakobson, Mankey, Hanlon and Moffitt all helped that happen in their own way. All of them were gone before or by the earliest stages of Bambu...and we know how that worked out. But I vote yes on a POB remix LP with extra material, that could be cool.

I started to edit your post, Jon, but then folks would have had to go back to read it in it's entirety - so I'll just add what I've been meaning to get to in this thread.  First off, if I'm one of the ones adding to the 'legend' that Moffitt mixed POB, that isn't my belief.  I believe that Steve took a lot of the 'balls' out of the mix in the mastering, however I do think Dennis was responsible for the final 'mixes'.  If he had a problem, it was in over-mixing; I often felt that he buried some of his most beautiful creations, losing them 'in the mix', in his search & stretch of boundaries.  (That's one of the reasons I cling to some of his earlier mixes that you've heard, Jon...)  I can state examples, (like "Moonshine"), if this discussion goes any further.  The thread kind of died off, however...

I hear what you're saying Ed. those various reference mixes that you and Hanlon have played me do have a less cooked sound, maybe stir-fried but not charbroiled. I'd forgotten that your issue with Moffitt was more mastering than mixing. But I've come around in wanting to hear a remix of POB, there was a time i argued with you about the purity of the released mix etc... Well we have that in its orig. vinyl form, and a great 2008 remaster...so now I'd love to hear those tracks get re-evaluated from a multi-track and sonic perspective. Using your reference mixes as a ...reference...would be a great way to keep them within the range of Dennis' own experimentation. I don't blame you for clinging to some of the earlier mixes because they are undoubtedly beautiful in their own right.

[Ed Roach]

It was actually my first attempt at mixing, and was done just for my friends in New York to hear.  (This was a band that Dennis & Carl bought out here, around the time of The Flame, to record an album).  

Well, Ed, who was this band( your friends)?
 did Dennis and Carl record them?
Who has the tapes? ( any BBs on them?)

Yes, these were the guys I grew up with, listening to all of the new Beach Boy records, as well as everything else pouring out of the 60's.  My best friend was a songwriter, and both Dennis & Carl fell in love with his material.  Unfortunately, by the time I got them to L.A., (under a very loose promise from DW & CW to at least recod them at Brian's house, and take it from there), the Boys had encountered the problems with The Flames release.  While all 3 Wilsons were present at some of the sessions, (Brian came down in his bathrobe, to see who this was recording), it fell to Desper & I to produce them.  And the tapes are still in the BRI vault.

[bgas]

It was actually my first attempt at mixing, and was done just for my friends in New York to hear.  (This was a band that Dennis & Carl bought out here, around the time of The Flame, to record an album).  

Well, Ed, who was this band( your friends)?
 did Dennis and Carl record them?
Who has the tapes? ( any BBs on them?)

Yes, these were the guys I grew up with, listening to all of the new Beach Boy records, as well as everything else pouring out of the 60's.  My best friend was a songwriter, and both Dennis & Carl fell in love with his material.  Unfortunately, by the time I got them to L.A., (under a very loose promise from DW & CW to at least recod them at Brian's house, and take it from there), the Boys had encountered the problems with The Flames release.  While all 3 Wilsons were present at some of the sessions, (Brian came down in his bathrobe, to see who this was recording), it fell to Desper & I to produce them.  And the tapes are still in the BRI vault.

Strange how things happen. 
Turns out that one of the acetates I own( Brother Records Demo) is actually a song done by Ed's friends. Seems the name of their band was "Thunder", but then they changed it to "Mr. H". The demo I have is of a song titled "Mr. Earth".  I haven't listened to it since I bought it, and taped it for a few friends.
 

[Jay]

I wasn't sure where to put this, but since a few people were talking about the POB mix, I guess i'll ask it here. In the liner notes to the reissued POB, it says something about the original POB album being just remastered. I can't remember exactly how it was put, but there is a sentence along the lines of "the original mix has been left as is, except for a brief "surprise"". What is the "surprise"?

[Ed Roach]

Strange how things happen. 
Turns out that one of the acetates I own( Brother Records Demo) is actually a song done by Ed's friends. Seems the name of their band was "Thunder", but then they changed it to "Mr. H". The demo I have is of a song titled "Mr. Earth".  I haven't listened to it since I bought it, and taped it for a few friends.

Now that you know the background, I'm real interested in you giving it another listen, and learning what you think of the song.  (Also would love to know what any friends you taped it for thought of it.)  Even after it was obvious that the group wasn't going to be signed by Brother, Desper made an offer to still complete an entire album - he was virtually living at the Belagio studio by that point, and had an awful lot of time on his hands - and Dennis was still interested in signing my buddy Jay as a songwriter.  Dennis also proved to me, right from the start of this venture, what a great friend he was, in advising me to incorporate a publishing company before things got too far along.  Jay & I shared the publishing rights to all of his material.  That version of Mr. Earth was the third one I had a hand in producing, as Dennis & Carl requested me to assemble an 8track studio of our own in New York, after I interested the 2 of them in the original demo.  And it was the second series of tapes which convinced them to give us a shot out here.  All in all, a very worthwhile experience, even if it wasn't ever released. 

[bgas]

Strange how things happen. 
Turns out that one of the acetates I own( Brother Records Demo) is actually a song done by Ed's friends. Seems the name of their band was "Thunder", but then they changed it to "Mr. H". The demo I have is of a song titled "Mr. Earth".  I haven't listened to it since I bought it, and taped it for a few friends.

Now that you know the background, I'm real interested in you giving it another listen, and learning what you think of the song.  (Also would love to know what any friends you taped it for thought of it.)  Even after it was obvious that the group wasn't going to be signed by Brother, Desper made an offer to still complete an entire album - he was virtually living at the Belagio studio by that point, and had an awful lot of time on his hands - and Dennis was still interested in signing my buddy Jay as a songwriter.  Dennis also proved to me, right from the start of this venture, what a great friend he was, in advising me to incorporate a publishing company before things got too far along.  Jay & I shared the publishing rights to all of his material.  That version of Mr. Earth was the third one I had a hand in producing, as Dennis & Carl requested me to assemble an 8track studio of our own in New York, after I interested the 2 of them in the original demo.  And it was the second series of tapes which convinced them to give us a shot out here.  All in all, a very worthwhile experience, even if it wasn't ever released. 

PM sent. I'll give it a listen when I get a turntable set up.
Did Desper end up doing a whle album?    I guess Dennis never closed the deal on signing Jay? 
You are definitely a mountain of info!