From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis

[smile-holland]

And in adddition to what the other mods have said.

1. Some of us are thinkers, others debaters. Some of us share their great knowledge of facts. A few like to search confrontation.
2. Some have an objective look on things, others more subjective.
3. Some of us have a favourite Beach Boy (or a few), some don't.
4. Some have a more black-&-white view on the group (and it's individual members), other see it in a broader perspective.

But overreacting or attacking isn't the way to respond. You don't have to agree on someone else's opinion. It would be a boring place to be if we couldn't discuss at all on this messageboard. But you can at least try to accept an opinion that differs from yours.

And if you do feel unhappy or insulted by a remark:
- count to 10 first;
- reply in case you want to get clarified a specific remark: he or she might have meant it totally different than what you thought.
- if necesary report it to us (there is a report button under each post);
- and - PLEASE - don't try to surpass a (possible) insult by responding in a similar way x 200%. At least show some dignity by responding in a way you'd like to be treated as well.

We're all grown-ups here... I think... I hope...


And questioning someone's credibility on this board based on the number of posts is ridiculous (Btw, I've noticed that at least one other member has posted way more overhere.     ). Same goes for member-names (my name isn't really SMiLE-Holland... serious!).

So the "privacy on worldwideweb"-remarks came across as an - ehm - "an unfortunate choice of words". Can happen. Happens to many of us. I've never seen that much negativity in responses to Sheriff's contributions. Yes, when yet another topic that turns into a Mike*=bad / Dennis*=good  (* and you can pick other names as well), the Sheriff often tries to put things in a broad perspective by giving an example that differs 180 degrees, because - as we all know - virtually nothing is a black & white story when it comes to the Beach Boys. It certainly doesn't make him a Mike-defender (or a Dennis attacker for that matter).

So we regularly condemn behaviour of some members of the Beach Boys... yet we don't have problems mentally/virtually bashing each other on a messageboard. Pretty silly isn't it?




... somewhere in a parallel universe there's a messageboard for Beach boys members only in which they discuss dumb discussions on other messageboards, and I'm sure they're having a lot of fun ridiculing our behaviour on this topic...     by now they're convinced some of us here are behaving equally "human" as they have in their lives...

[Cam Mott]

Well, I don't know what Denny had planned for a tour but is it really out of line for a band to expect a member to choose between his own thing and the band thing if they conflict?  Was it a temporary ultimatum until his solo thing was done or a you're out of the band for good ultimatum?

[BillA]

Just an observation - it would have been in everybody's interest to let Dennis tour.  I am not sure of what the downside would have been.

Just anpther in a long list of Beach Boy decisions that defy logic

[Howie Edelson]

"SMILE-Holland" I don't know if you've ever encountered a toddler who asks "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" “Why?” “ Why?" -- and no matter how descriptive, well meaning, accurate and loving an answer, just will not stop asking "Why?"

I take umbrage that you used MY quote below the posting "At least show some dignity by responding in a way you'd like to be treated as well."

I bring an intelligence and historical knowledge to this board -- as do my friends and peers here who do likewise. I realize that others lack the insight, the passion, or prowess to demonstrate it in writing -- but by asking anyone who brazenly refuses to use cognitive thought while clogging nearly EVERY thread as to why THEY think something is so (after an obese number of postings under their belt) is more than warranted.

This isn't Dungeons & Dragons. I use my name, I post my email. I'm proud of what I know -- I stand behind what I say. Not afraid of “stalkers.” Not really afraid of anything.

One might say I show “dignity” in people knowing who they’re talking to at any given time, “SMILE-Holland.”

Regarding Dennis Wilson’s aborted 1977 tour – he was going to use all if not most of the Beach Boys’ entire backline. Apologies if I offended anybody by pointing that out 36 pages into this thread.

[Cam Mott]

Regarding Dennis Wilson’s aborted 1977 tour – he was going to use all if not most of the Beach Boys’ entire backline.

Howie,

How was it planned to work? Coordinated noncompeting dates, Denny as the BB's opening act?

[smile-holland]

Howie: first my apologies, I started responding on this topic by using the quote button on your response. I simply forgot - while typing my answer(s) - to remove that quote. I didn't mean to specifically direct my message to you, and certainly not specifically to connect that quote to my response (especially the "dignity" part). Therefore I removed the quote. My message was meant for everybody here (and your responses happened to be one of the reasons to do so, as I thought the "number of posts" example wasn't relevant).

So as you can see, I make mistakes as well.  

And I indeed appreciate your input and knowledge. Not everybody has the privilege to have been around from early on in the group's history.
But there are also fans that aren't so well into all the facts yet. And there are also fans that have been around for a longer time, but still have a lot of questions or like to wonder "what if" or "why"... And they will be around for a long while. You could say I'm a toddler too, but I happen to be more of a reader than a writer.
Anyway - even if you (or me) don't like it - imo it's better to ignore that type of discussions.

Especially when it comes to discussions that involves relations between Brian or Mike, Dennis or Mike, etc., I'm surprised to see how intense and sometimes mean discussions get. And that saddens me sometimes. (also a reason for me to respond here)


As for the use of names. You don't have a problem using your own name. And frankly, I don't either; nowadays I might have chosen my own name as well. At the time I simply chose a name I liked with no deeper thought behind it. I hope you don't mind that.  

[Howie Edelson]

Thank you. That's appreciated.

[Jon Stebbins]

There is a long pattern here. Many years. I've seen SJS say in a post (not in reply to me) he does not like it when other posters defer to "experts" or insiders just because they are experts or insiders. I'm the same way actually, and my positions have evolved because in my research I have questioned the standard or general consensus instead of cutting and pasting them. Challenging or dismissing a known expert's opinion or position takes courage, far less if its done anonymously I believe. You don't really have to be credible if no one knows who you are...so, you can say anything. I don't have that luxury. I have to be able to back up the things I say or post. I have previously, and in this thread, stated the bit about the POB tour ultimatum. Its been well researched. There were other factors that influenced things, but the overriding factor was not bad timing, or Dennis' lack of confidence, or his substance problems, or the label's pressure, or anything else. Dates were booked, the band was rehearsed, the record was selling, and the Beach Boys killed the tour. No way Dennis was going to give up his Beach Boys income in 1977 cold turkey, and no way he was going to separate from HIS band. The BB's were not interested in letting him test the solo waters at their expense. Despite what some people might say to diffuse this fact, there was a HUGE amount of resentment within the BB's toward Dennis' mini-success with POB. Carl was supportive but not in fighting shape at the time. And...Dennis was weak enough, or lacked the confidence to find a way around the fact that the BB's were essentially shutting his tour aspirations down. What happened later is relevant in that this incident influenced the spiral. I do not believe it caused it, that would be silly...but it was one heartbreaking factor that nudged it significantly. It also was motivation for Dennis to blow everything else up, and to make Mike's life on stage miserable etc.. etc.. That may seem petty, or it may seem fair depending on your position and perspective, but I think its true, to what degree its true can certainly be debated. SJS repeatedly through the years has always followed my assertion that this ultimatum event occurred with, "I don't believe that" or something similar. Then it gets to be bang your head against the wall time. Because even though i know what I know...and even though i have many years of research, access, and inside connection directly to this subject matter, he's not buying it...that and a few other things too. I want to share what I've learned. I like to share it because I feel lucky to have access to materials and people that other people do not...and I feel lucky there are people here who appreciate what insights i can bring to them. I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.

The short circuiting of this thread is unfortunate, but predictable. There is a pattern, I'm not exactly sure why, but I for one want to continue to share what i learn, and the revelation that fresh knowledge can sometimes point to. C-man's orig. post with Mike's comments to me had an inflammatory element that needed to be called out. I did that, with the knowledge that all of you know who i am, and that I said what i said on the public record, knowing I WILL be talking to Mike Love himself again at some point. I'm not afraid, Howie's not afraid, AGD's not afraid. No awards necessary. However, at least consider the fact that we're not spewing from the hip with no possibility of accountability. That should be worth something.

[Alex]

RAWRRRRRRR!!! Mike Love is evil!!!! End of story! 

[Emdeeh]

I'm not afraid, Howie's not afraid, AGD's not afraid. No awards necessary. However, at least consider the fact that we're not spewing from the hip with no possibility of accountability. That should be worth something.

It is worth something in these parts. Many thanks to all three of you for your ongoing scholarship, one of the things that makes this board a valuable resource.

[kirt]

 Well said Jon and thank you for the insight.  
 I always enjoy  Ed's and your post when it concerns Dennis .
  
 Dennis is defiantly one complex dude and lived on a different plane than most.

 

[Paulos]

I'm not afraid, Howie's not afraid, AGD's not afraid. No awards necessary. However, at least consider the fact that we're not spewing from the hip with no possibility of accountability. That should be worth something.

It is worth something in these parts. Many thanks to all three of you for your ongoing scholarship, one of the things that makes this board a valuable resource.

I also appreciate it greatly, I think I've learnt as much from this and the shutdown board than I have from all the books I've read on the boys and this is down to the knowledge and information provided by all board members and especially from people like Jon and Andrew. Not kissing up to them, sometimes I disagree with certain views that they may express but I never doubt the information they give as they always back it up with sources and detailed explanations.

[TdHabib]

Despite what some people might say to diffuse this fact, there was a HUGE amount of resentment within the BB's toward Dennis' mini-success with POB.

I've heard Alan say this semi-repeatedly over the years.

[Dancing Bear]

I don't ressent any insider or researcher's contribution to this message board. Sometimes they bring stuff I enjoy reading, sometimes not. I'll survive. 

Anyway, I'm no moderator and maybe I'm going out of line, but.... In the end of the day, SJS (or anyone else) has the right to post or question whatever he wants. Even if Al Jardine himself posted here and complained about whoever's inane posting, I'd say the same. I think that's how it works.

[Andrew G. Doe]

In the end of the day, SJS (or anyone else) has the right to post or question whatever he wants.

No arguments from me on that score.

However...

As Howie said, he's like a small child that just keeps asking "but why ?" even when something has been explained to him in words of one syllable some dozen times. My father had a saying: "can't make someone listen to something they don't want to hear". Plus, he wasn't reading - or was ignoring - what was posted on the thread, as was demonstrated by his asking about the 'ultimatum' less than an hour after Jon explained it. That's edging into troll territory.

[Dancing Bear]

Observation noted.

But I think guys like SJS and Cam Mott, who ask all the wrong (or right) questions make us go fowards, not backwards.

I guess SJS can be questioned as well about his line of posting, but if there were less of a sensation of ganging up over the guy, or the tone were more civil towards him, the goals would be reached more easily. Just an idea.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Cam is a shining example of how to ask the right wrong questions: he does his research, and he listens.

As for 'ganging up' on SJS, can't speak for Jon or Howie, but I did what I usually do whenever I see someone presenting gross misinformation as factual support for their premise.

[smile-holland]

Observation noted.

But I think guys like SJS and Cam Mott, who ask all the wrong (or right) questions make us go fowards, not backwards.

I guess SJS can be questioned as well about his line of posting, but if there were less of a sensation of ganging up over the guy, or the tone were more civil towards him, the goals would be reached more easily. Just an idea.

Agreed.

And can we please get back on-topic? Points are made clear by now.

[oldsurferdude]

And in adddition to what the other mods have said.

1. Some of us are thinkers, others debaters. Some of us share their great knowledge of facts. A few like to search confrontation.
2. Some have an objective look on things, others more subjective.
3. Some of us have a favourite Beach Boy (or a few), some don't.
4. Some have a more black-&-white view on the group (and it's individual members), other see it in a broader perspective.

But overreacting or attacking isn't the way to respond. You don't have to agree on someone else's opinion. It would be a boring place to be if we couldn't discuss at all on this messageboard. But you can at least try to accept an opinion that differs from yours.

And if you do feel unhappy or insulted by a remark:
- count to 10 first;
- reply in case you want to get clarified a specific remark: he or she might have meant it totally different than what you thought.
- if necesary report it to us (there is a report button under each post);
- and - PLEASE - don't try to surpass a (possible) insult by responding in a similar way x 200%. At least show some dignity by responding in a way you'd like to be treated as well.

We're all grown-ups here... I think... I hope...


And questioning someone's credibility on this board based on the number of posts is ridiculous (Btw, I've noticed that at least one other member has posted way more overhere.     ). Same goes for member-names (my name isn't really SMiLE-Holland... serious!).

So the "privacy on worldwideweb"-remarks came across as an - ehm - "an unfortunate choice of words". Can happen. Happens to many of us. I've never seen that much negativity in responses to Sheriff's contributions. Yes, when yet another topic that turns into a Mike*=bad / Dennis*=good  (* and you can pick other names as well), the Sheriff often tries to put things in a broad perspective by giving an example that differs 180 degrees, because - as we all know - virtually nothing is a black & white story when it comes to the Beach Boys. It certainly doesn't make him a Mike-defender (or a Dennis attacker for that matter).

So we regularly condemn behaviour of some members of the Beach Boys... yet we don't have problems mentally/virtually bashing each other on a messageboard. Pretty silly isn't it?




... somewhere in a parallel universe there's a messageboard for Beach boys members only in which they discuss dumb discussions on other messageboards, and I'm sure they're having a lot of fun ridiculing our behaviour on this topic...     by now they're convinced some of us here are behaving equally "human" as they have in their lives...

Ok, as long as he cools it with those mouse jokes!

[c-man]

I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.

This is the kinda stuff I wanna hear about...it makes me salivate.  For Cam Mott and anyone else interested in the chronology of Dennis' aborted solo tour, I gleaned info from many different sources (including Jon, interviews with people like Bobby Figueroa and Wayne Tweed from Record Collector and the pages of ESQ, and the actual musician's union contracts that for the tour rehearsals), and wrote what I hope is a pretty thorough synopsis.  It's at http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1

[Ed Roach]

Despite what some people might say to diffuse this fact, there was a HUGE amount of resentment within the BB's toward Dennis' mini-success with POB.

I've heard Alan say this semi-repeatedly over the years.

Alan said something to this effect to me just recently.  What most people don't give credence to is the fact that this wasn't necessarily a "mini-success"; it was the biggest selling album by a 'new' artist on the Billboard charts of that year.  (And it could have been a monster, had he toured, and had we done the TV campaign that my "River Song" video would have started.)
I never got to add an additional post to my earlier one, (sorry, Fear 2 Stop® & Sound of Free ), as this thread became bizarre for awhile, but I will - eventually....  I'm actually learning things from these posts; Jon doesn't quote me, because I had my own myopic view of why the tour went awry.  I'll be back, but thanks for allowing me to see things in a new & different light

[BillA]

So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

[BillA]

I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.

I love the article.  It is the first I have heard of a Van Morrison/Beach Boy connection which, given that my favorite three acts were/are the Beach Boys, The Beatles and Van the Man, is pretty cool.
This is the kinda stuff I wanna hear about...it makes me salivate.  For Cam Mott and anyone else interested in the chronology of Dennis' aborted solo tour, I gleaned info from many different sources (including Jon, interviews with people like Bobby Figueroa and Wayne Tweed from Record Collector and the pages of ESQ, and the actual musician's union contracts that for the tour rehearsals), and wrote what I hope is a pretty thorough synopsis.  It's at http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1

[jeremylr]

This goes with Craig's (aka cman) outstanding research article on POB/Bambu, but to read about Dennis's aborted tour from folks who were there , scroll down to pages 27 & 28.   The full article is about 70 pages long in pdf.  Here's the link again:


http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1

[c-man]

This goes with Craig's (aka cman) outstanding research article on POB/Bambu, but to read about Dennis's aborted tour from folks who were there , scroll down to pages 27 & 28.   The full article is about 70 pages long in pdf.  Here's the link again:


http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1

I meant the link to go straight to that page, but didn't do it right.  Thanks.