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Smiley Smile Stuff => General On Topic Discussions => Topic started by: c-man on March 21, 2010, 04:58:30 PM



Title: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on March 21, 2010, 04:58:30 PM
I intended to post this awhile back, in response to a thread on this board, but it took me awhile to locate it.  But here it is, to my knowledge the most that Mike has spoken publically about Dennis and his passing.  I'm afraid I don't know the original source other than the article's title ("A Beach Boy Looks Past the Tragedy"), but this was reprinted in an old fanzine called Surf Records (published by Gary Virts...some of you other longtime fans may remember it).  It ran in their June 1984 issue, and the beginning of the article mentions a fundraiser they were to play at Radio City Music Hall the following night (which was May 7th), so it probably first appeared in a New York-area publication.  Mike would later address the subject of Dennis' downward spiral and death in other places, such as on the on Today show, in the powerpop fanzine Little Yellow Pills, and in the Endless Harmony documentary, but to my knowledge this is really where he spoke the most, in terms both practical and metaphysical, not only about Dennis' condition, the disagreements the two of them had, and Dennis' eventual death, but also what he believes happened to Dennis afterwards.

"Dennis was unfortunate, because he was hooked on alcohol," Love said.  "It ruled his life.  It ruled it in the morning, when he got up, until the evening, when he passed out.  Sometimes he didn't make it to the evening.  It was a tragedy, but he was hooked, just like an addict hooked on anything.  We tried to get him to seek help, but he would only do it his way.  Which was, he was a rebel." 

"He defied  the laws of nature and of man," said Love.  "You can get away with breaking manmade laws, but nature is unforgiving.  I think that put him on the path that led to his so-called accidental drowning.  I don't think it was an accident at all.  I think he was very unhappy.  The laws of nature that govern things like water, air, and breathing terminated his subscription to life, his mortal coil as we know it.  But I'm sure he's with us.  In fact, I feel the presence of his soul or spirit much stronger.  After a few hours, alcohol leaves the body.  I'm sure if you're disincarnate, it gives you time to think, without the inhibiting values of drugs and alcohol and stuff."

There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.

Stan Love played professional basketball with the erstwhile Baltimore Bullets and the Los Angeles Lakers.  The other member of the "two-man vilgilante committee", according to Mike Love, was an ex-football player he said was named Rocky.

"Whoever had a misunderstanding with Dennis, it was usually over lifestyle, or alcohol, or something...It was a stress on the whole group.  Of course, we had a difference of opinion.  It's like, if you're a corporation, like General Motors, and some key management guy is drunk all the time, you tell him to either straighten up and get help, or you're fired.  Or take some time off to get your act together.  That's what we had to tell Dennis from time to time.  Take some time off and get yourself together.  But he never did".


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jon Stebbins on March 21, 2010, 06:09:43 PM
There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.


Love's words would be a lot more credible if he didn't spin his comments like this one. The fundamental conflict between Mike and Dennis was NOT based in that one reckless act by Dennis(ie giving cocaine to Brian), That is just an inflammatory statement, it is completely ridiculous to make it in relation to the context of Dennis' death...and conveniently a dead Dennis can't answer it or confront Mike for saying it. One thing Mike knows well, despite all the flaws in his person, Dennis fought his own fights. Statements like the one above give the impression that Mike waits until its safe to fight his.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 21, 2010, 06:32:01 PM
What was the fundamental conflict between them?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 21, 2010, 06:38:35 PM
There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.


Love's words would be a lot more credible if he didn't spin his comments like this one. The fundamental conflict between Mike and Dennis was NOT based in that one reckless act by Dennis(ie giving cocaine to Brian), That is just an inflammatory statement, it is completely ridiculous to make it in relation to the context of Dennis' death...and conveniently a dead Dennis can't answer it or confront Mike for saying it. One thing Mike knows well, despite all the flaws in his person, Dennis fought his own fights. Statements like the one above give the impression that Mike waits until its safe to fight his.

Mike wasn't spinning his comments, but you were. Mike never said the fundamental conflict was Dennis giving cocaine to his mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable brother. Mike used those incidences as an EXAMPLE of why the relationship was stressful and why there was conflict. In the brief interview, Mike mentioned other examples of Dennis' personality and behavior that led to conflict. Also, I never got "the impression that Mike waits until it's safe to fight his (own fights)". I know, as you also know, Mike had physical confrontations with Dennis when he was alive, and Mike, along with the other guys, fired Dennis from the group. You also failed to mention that Mike alluded to that in the interview, when he said, "...you tell him to either strighten up and get help, or you're fired. Or take some time off to get your act together. That's what we had to tell Dennis from time to time".


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 21, 2010, 06:41:17 PM
Some people try to make the point that Mike was jealous of Dennis all his life, but in my opinion, that's just as silly as Mike's comment that Mr. Stebbins mentioned above.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 21, 2010, 06:43:33 PM
There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.


Love's words would be a lot more credible if he didn't spin his comments like this one. The fundamental conflict between Mike and Dennis was NOT based in that one reckless act by Dennis(ie giving cocaine to Brian), That is just an inflammatory statement, it is completely ridiculous to make it in relation to the context of Dennis' death...and conveniently a dead Dennis can't answer it or confront Mike for saying it. One thing Mike knows well, despite all the flaws in his person, Dennis fought his own fights. Statements like the one above give the impression that Mike waits until its safe to fight his.
Jon, I was about to say the same thing but you put it better than I could...

EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 21, 2010, 06:47:51 PM
There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.


Love's words would be a lot more credible if he didn't spin his comments like this one. The fundamental conflict between Mike and Dennis was NOT based in that one reckless act by Dennis(ie giving cocaine to Brian), That is just an inflammatory statement, it is completely ridiculous to make it in relation to the context of Dennis' death...and conveniently a dead Dennis can't answer it or confront Mike for saying it. One thing Mike knows well, despite all the flaws in his person, Dennis fought his own fights. Statements like the one above give the impression that Mike waits until its safe to fight his.

Mike wasn't spinning his comments, but you were. Mike never said the fundamental conflict was Dennis giving cocaine to his mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable brother. Mike used those incidences as an EXAMPLE of why the relationship was stressful and why there was conflict. In the brief interview, Mike mentioned other examples of Dennis' personality and behavior that led to conflict. Also, I never got "the impression that Mike waits until it's safe to fight his (own fights)". I know, as you also know, Mike had physical confrontations with Dennis when he was alive, and Mike, along with the other guys, fired Dennis from the group. You also failed to mention that Mike alluded to that in the interview, when he said, "...you tell him to either strighten up and get help, or you're fired. Or take some time off to get your act together. That's what we had to tell Dennis from time to time".
To be fair, I see your point, and Mr. Stebbins' point as well. Yes, Mike mentioned the cocaine episode as "an example" of the bad behaviour that Dennis exibited.  But one kind of gets  the feeling that Mike was essentially  "taking the easy way out" with his comments. Mike was trying to simplify a problem that was much deeper than sharing drugs with certain members of the group.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 21, 2010, 06:58:02 PM
There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.


Love's words would be a lot more credible if he didn't spin his comments like this one. The fundamental conflict between Mike and Dennis was NOT based in that one reckless act by Dennis(ie giving cocaine to Brian), That is just an inflammatory statement, it is completely ridiculous to make it in relation to the context of Dennis' death...and conveniently a dead Dennis can't answer it or confront Mike for saying it. One thing Mike knows well, despite all the flaws in his person, Dennis fought his own fights. Statements like the one above give the impression that Mike waits until its safe to fight his.

Mike wasn't spinning his comments, but you were. Mike never said the fundamental conflict was Dennis giving cocaine to his mentally ill, drug addicted, vulnerable brother. Mike used those incidences as an EXAMPLE of why the relationship was stressful and why there was conflict. In the brief interview, Mike mentioned other examples of Dennis' personality and behavior that led to conflict. Also, I never got "the impression that Mike waits until it's safe to fight his (own fights)". I know, as you also know, Mike had physical confrontations with Dennis when he was alive, and Mike, along with the other guys, fired Dennis from the group. You also failed to mention that Mike alluded to that in the interview, when he said, "...you tell him to either strighten up and get help, or you're fired. Or take some time off to get your act together. That's what we had to tell Dennis from time to time".
To be fair, I see your point, and Mr. Stebbins' point as well. Yes, Mike mentioned the cocaine episode as "an example" of the bad behaviour that Dennis exibited.  But one kind of gets  the feeling that Mike was essentially  "taking the easy way out" with his comments. Mike was trying to simplify a problem that was much deeper than sharing drugs with certain members of the group.

Mike didn't "take the easy way out". He could've made it sound a lot worse. He didn't mention Charles Manson, showing up intoxicated for shows, showing up intoxicated at the White House, the embarrassment on Good Morning America, etc. Again, Mike just gave one specific example.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 21, 2010, 07:01:42 PM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on March 21, 2010, 07:08:13 PM
Sheesh...didn't mean to start a war here, guys!  ;)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Howie Edelson on March 21, 2010, 07:08:59 PM
Wait -- so throwing in that he gave Brian cocaine was "just an example" and NOT spin??? Really. The fact that Dennis was brutally attacked by his brother (from what I've heard permanently damaging his upper palate) was because he was supplying Brian Wilson with cocaine??? That's called "spin" Sheriff (I feel odd calling you "Sherriff" -- do you have a REAL name???) Mike's statement has real pathos and honesty until that point -- and then it turns. Thinking that Jon Stebbins is "spinning" Mike Love's statements regarding WHY Dennis Wilson was booted and beaten out of the Beach Boys is as silly as using a made-up name.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 21, 2010, 07:22:03 PM
Wait -- so throwing in that he gave Brian cocaine was "just an example" and NOT spin??? Really. The fact that Dennis was brutally attacked by his brother (from what I've heard permanently damaging his upper palate) was because he was supplying Brian Wilson with cocaine??? That's called "spin" Sheriff (I feel odd calling you "Sherriff" -- do you have a REAL name???) Mike's statement has real pathos and honesty until that point -- and then it turns. Thinking that Jon Stebbins is "spinning" Mike Love's statements regarding WHY Dennis Wilson was booted and beaten out of the Beach Boys is as silly as using a made-up name.

What did Mike try to "spin"? He admitted that the relationship was stressful and that there was conflict. He could've elaborated with several examples. He named one, granted a major one. If Mike would've elaborated, the people would've jumped on Mike for piling on. This is another interview where Mike told the truth (rare for a Beach Boys' interview), but, because it concerned Dennis - who was good looking, gave us POB, and had a big heart - it is resented.

BTW, I do have a real name but I don't use it on message boards because some people - maybe you - are not emotionally stable enough to handle message boards and might try something inappropriate. But that's OK, you don't have to feel "odd" calling me Sheriff. Actually, you don't have to call me anything. :police:


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jon Stebbins on March 21, 2010, 07:28:18 PM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?
How do feel about Mike saying Dennis was nothing but a talentless drug addict? That quote exists. How do you feel about the anecdotes from Mike's exes saying he battered them? That testimony exists. How about Dennis' child saying Mike knocked him across the room with a fist when he was a little boy for messing up Mike's kitchen. You will undoubtedly respond that the things I mention are either not true because you haven't heard or seen them, or irrelevant to this discussion, while the things you say are both true and relevant because you have and they are. Then, this thread evolves into a tit for tat mess. On and on we go dum be doo dah.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 21, 2010, 07:32:07 PM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?
How do feel about Mike saying Dennis was nothing but a talentless drug addict? That quote exists. How do you feel about the anecdotes from Mike's exes saying he battered them? That testimony exists. How about Dennis' child saying Mike knocked him across the room with a fist when he was a little boy for messing up Mike's kitchen. You will undoubtedly respond that the things I mention are either not true because you haven't heard or seen them, or irrelevant to this discussion, while the things you say are both true and relevant because you have and they are. Then, this thread evolves into a tit for tat mess. On and on we go dum be doo dah.

I feel that at times, Mike did and said things that were inexcusable, including the things that you mentioned above.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 21, 2010, 07:38:14 PM
Sheesh...didn't mean to start a war here, guys!  ;)
Such is the norm around here it seems, as of late.  ::) But the article was/is very much appreciated, thank you for posting it.  :)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 21, 2010, 07:40:33 PM
I'd like to know what would be the acceptable thing for Mike to say about this relationship with Dennis. In 2010.  :)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 21, 2010, 07:52:19 PM
I'd like to know what Mike thinks of the POB/Bambu reissue, and the subsequent media storm it created.  ;)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 21, 2010, 08:12:12 PM
I'd like to know what Mike thinks of the POB/Bambu reissue, and the subsequent media storm it created.  ;)
Easy. "Hey, it took another track with lyrics of mine to make this motherfucker sell".  ;D


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 21, 2010, 08:25:09 PM
What song was Mike involved in?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 21, 2010, 08:44:49 PM
He originally wrote the lyrics to "Pacific Ocean Blues". In the reissue another track with lyrics written by Mike was added: "Only with You".


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 21, 2010, 11:01:46 PM
BTW, I do have a real name but I don't use it on message boards because some people - maybe you - are not emotionally stable enough to handle message boards and might try something inappropriate.

That is about the most arrogant and objectionable post I've ever seen on this board, and dammit, I've seen - and made - a few. We really don't care about you and what you say enough to consider "something inappropriate" (paranoia is a terrible thing)... and as for you evaluating Howie's emotional well-being...  :o

If that's why you elect to cower behind a pseudonym, then I respectfully suggest you have considerably more problems than Howie might have.  I feel an apology is in order, but I'm not going to be here to witness it.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: alanjames on March 22, 2010, 12:34:28 AM
What we can expect from a Mike Love's fanatic and defenser?
Quotes like this.
Mike is an angel, Dennis was a evil. Simply like that (totally ironic  :P).
Mike can do what he wants to do, and he's still cool. Mr Cool.  8)
Dennis did worse things (as Mike), but he couldn't do, because he was simply a "drunken-drugged-beachboy-drummer"
(totally ironic too :P).
Mike is a guy who have/had feelings (in the past or present) for: money, his family, Brian and Beach Boys (name, and his hits, nothing more). But for all the other persons and things, he didn't have feeling.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 22, 2010, 12:37:41 AM
It's a simple name, on a messageboard. A Beach Boys lyric at that. There is no secret conspiracy here. We aren't "hiding" names, or plotting world domination. Geez....


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Mr. Cohen on March 22, 2010, 01:18:09 AM
Adamghost: Anywhere we can see/hear a good example of Carl's piano playing? I'm really curious now.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on March 22, 2010, 01:55:45 AM
In the words of Brian Wilson (and allegedly Landy)... "Love & Mercy".

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/Stryyp/1138832898301.gif)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 22, 2010, 02:07:22 AM
BTW, I do have a real name but I don't use it on message boards because some people - maybe you - are not emotionally stable enough to handle message boards and might try something inappropriate.

That is about the most arrogant and objectionable post I've ever seen on this board, and dammit, I've seen - and made - a few. We really don't care about you and what you say enough to consider "something inappropriate" (paranoia is a terrible thing)... and as for you evaluating Howie's emotional well-being...  :o

If that's why you elect to cower behind a pseudonym, then I respectfully suggest you have considerably more problems than Howie might have.  I feel an apology is in order, but I'm not going to be here to witness it.

Talk about spinning words....Evaluating Howie's emotional well-being? Give me a break.

Let's see, concerning a simple post by me, you mentioned arrogant, objectionable, paranoia, cower, and suggested that I have considerably more problems than Howie (what problems DOES he have?), and suggest an apology. Coming from you that's laughable.

You know exactly what I meant by using a pseudonym, and potential problems that can occur, so don't patronize me.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: MBE on March 22, 2010, 03:36:17 AM
First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: The Shift on March 22, 2010, 04:21:02 AM
Quote from: Mike Love
"He defied the laws of nature and of man. You can get away with breaking manmade laws, but nature is unforgiving. I think that put him on the path that led to his so-called accidental drowning. I don't think it was an accident at all. I think he was very unhappy.  The laws of nature that govern things like water, air, and breathing terminated his subscription to life, his mortal coil as we know it. But I'm sure he's with us. In fact, I feel the presence of his soul or spirit much stronger.  After a few hours, alcohol leaves the body.  I'm sure if you're disincarnate, it gives you time to think, without the inhibiting values of drugs and alcohol and stuff."

Not sure what this quote is implying -  seems to me that Mike was saying that now Dennis was dead the alcohol would leave his system and he'd have chance to reflect with a clear mind on the error of his ways.

Given that Mike also seemed to be saying that Dennis was, in effective, executed by the elements for defying the laws of nature, I wonder whether these words were uttered during one of Mike's moments of mental feedback (such as his Hall of Fame speech) and shouldn't perhaps be taken as having been a true reflection of his true feelings on the matter at that time.

Not guilty due to diminished responsibility / temporary insanity?

Edit: Meant to add, if Mike believed back in '66/'67 that the elements were capable of such vindictive slaughter, is it any wonder Brian never felt comfortable releasing SMiLE?!?!?!


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 22, 2010, 04:36:38 AM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?
First of all I just wanted to say I have never liked it when you take what I have written in posts in make a mockery of it.

Re: the first statement you have to add that Dennis went to Brian's house every day and tried to help him when he was starting to decline into mental illness. Every day. Check the WNEW interview from 1976.

Re: the second statement. I don't feel as strongly.

Just to add a little more oomph, imagine if Rocky and Stan's brutal beating had actually killed Dennis in 1981, instead of nearly killing him. I have a feeling many people (including Mike) would be singing a different song. I am all for getting rid of the Brianista Leaf attitude but we cannot make Mike a saint.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 22, 2010, 06:34:40 AM
I actually thought this was a good interview where Mike was sensitive towards Dennis. How naive of me.  :)

But we know how it works. First we must state how Mike was an asshole, and after that we can state how Dennis was an asshole too. I guess it's our way of feeling near our heroes, repeating their psychodrama forever and ever.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: BillA on March 22, 2010, 07:41:08 AM
First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.


My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: kirt on March 22, 2010, 08:45:51 AM
Wait -- so throwing in that he gave Brian cocaine was "just an example" and NOT spin??? Really. The fact that Dennis was brutally attacked by his brother (from what I've heard permanently damaging his upper palate) was because he was supplying Brian Wilson with cocaine??? That's called "spin" Sheriff (I feel odd calling you "Sherriff" -- do you have a REAL name???) Mike's statement has real pathos and honesty until that point -- and then it turns. Thinking that Jon Stebbins is "spinning" Mike Love's statements regarding WHY Dennis Wilson was booted and beaten out of the Beach Boys is as silly as using a made-up name.

  I've noticed in late photos of Dennis, his upper lip area looks odd . Is this due to a damaged palate received by this beating?  The area above his lip protrudes slightly. I don't notice this on older photos.
  It seems like these thugs were out to finish Dennis off, out of the Beach Boys, out of a career. Kind of like in westerns when they break a gunslingers hands, only Dennis was a singer so,lets smash his throat.  
  Dennis was no angel but , maybe calling the cops would have been better idea ,instead of nearly killing your beloved cousin. Is this what the Maharishi teaches?
   If Mike ,through the years, would have shown more humility ,rock history would be much kinder to him.  It might read  Lennon/McCartney, Jagger/Richards......Wilson/Love.    But instead we find a "drugged out, no talent, parasite"  being praised as a late blooming musical genius,  why?   because truth always prevails.

I love The Beach Boys and Mike is a part of that. I like Mike from a fans perspective but, all of these guys would be a nightmare to have in the family. From the Wilson's to the "guy waiting on a bus."

 
  

  


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Ed Roach on March 22, 2010, 09:03:43 AM
"The fact that Dennis was brutally attacked by his brother (from what I've heard permanently damaging his upper palate) was because he was supplying Brian Wilson with cocaine???"
"Mike's statement has real pathos and honesty until that point -- and then it turns."
Wow!  Stay away from here for a day or two, and all hell breaks loose...  Without even fully absorbing Mike's statement,  I cruised through all the comments, and have to interject on what jumped out at me:
First off, Howie, (while maybe there was palate damage from this beating, I'm more concerned about the throat damage done earlier), there is confusion regarding the physical abuse Dennis was subjected to by the Love brothers.  The first damage came from a sucker punch delivered by Steve, not Stan; (Dennis thought he might have additionally been kicked in the throat while he was down).  This was years & years before the brutal drunken beating he was subjected to by Stan & Rocky, just months before his death.

"Evaluating Howie's emotional well-being? Give me a break."

"Let's see, concerning a simple post by me, you mentioned arrogant, objectionable, paranoia, cower, and suggested that I have considerably more problems than Howie (what problems DOES he have?), and suggest an apology. Coming from you that's laughable."
Come on , guys, questioning each other's emotional wellbeing, as we sit here Monday morning quarterbacking a group of guys who started a group almost 50 years ago, and crafted some of their best music from the emotional & physical abuse they were subjected to in childhood???  And we feel capable of evaluating each other?

As for the comments about Dennis supplying Brian with drugs,  now that's laughable!  What occurred then was two damaged individuals who shared escaping reality while also creating music; how was Brian any less responsible than Dennis?  (And where does this sit compared to the drugs supplied Brian by Doctor Landy, and the permanent damage done by those legal drugs?!?!)  Also, what was Dennis' responsibility when the evil white powder was being fed by the shovelful to Brian by a certain record company president back in early seventies, (well documented & witnessed), to get "one more song" out of Brian, or the heroin supplied all 3 Wilsons by a certain bastion of English aristocracy, (when was he made Sir?), so that they could complete an Australian tour that he booked?
Wait until I get a chance to really read these posts, then I'll respond...  


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Reggie Dunbar on March 22, 2010, 09:28:58 AM
Just more fuel heaped on another bonfire of a topic that is Mike Love. Apologists can spin it any way they like, but the sane and rational hear the words of an A-1 DBag in this article.

Prescribed thuggery / "Spiritualism" = Phony.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on March 22, 2010, 12:19:07 PM
Anxiously awaiting Ed's next post... I didn't know about that story concerning Brian.

Quote
Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.

Well put as usual MBE. Really in this story, the Heroes ARE Villains, and vice versa.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sound of Free on March 22, 2010, 02:47:49 PM
I'm more concerned about the throat damage done earlier), there is confusion regarding the physical abuse Dennis was subjected to by the Love brothers.  The first damage came from a sucker punch delivered by Steve, not Stan; (Dennis thought he might have additionally been kicked in the throat while he was down).  This was years & years before the brutal drunken beating he was subjected to by Stan & Rocky, just months before his death.

Ed, I'm very curious. How did this punch come about? Where was it, befofre or after a concert, at a band meeting? What started it? How did Steve's hitting Dennis go over with Carl and Al, and even Mike?

I know the booze, cocaine and cigarettes played their part in ruining Dennis' voice, but it would have been nice to hear POB sung by a guy who hadn't been sucker-punched in the throat.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: gsmile on March 22, 2010, 03:10:42 PM
First we must state how Mike was an butthole, and after that we can state how Dennis was an butthole too.

This is all well and good, but let us not forget that Van Dyke Parks is the BIGGEST butthole.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 22, 2010, 03:13:35 PM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?
How do feel about Mike saying Dennis was nothing but a talentless drug addict? That quote exists. How do you feel about the anecdotes from Mike's exes saying he battered them? That testimony exists. How about Dennis' child saying Mike knocked him across the room with a fist when he was a little boy for messing up Mike's kitchen.
We cannot just skip over these statements, this is shameful. I didn't know two of these things.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 22, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."

And, how do you feel, Td, about Dennis possessing and supplying illegal drugs to a mentally ill, drug addicted brother? Is that shameful? Does that make you sad and almost cry?
How do feel about Mike saying Dennis was nothing but a talentless drug addict? That quote exists. How do you feel about the anecdotes from Mike's exes saying he battered them? That testimony exists. How about Dennis' child saying Mike knocked him across the room with a fist when he was a little boy for messing up Mike's kitchen.
We cannot just skip over these statements, this is shameful. I didn't know two of these things.
Don't worry, those 'things' will be repeated to death in this noble message board, quickly followed on the spot by either 'Brian did this' or 'Dennis did that', dependending on the subject.  :)

By the way, thanks to C-man for taking the time to type this article.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on March 22, 2010, 04:05:20 PM
By the way, thanks to C-man for taking the time to type this article.

Now I'm kinda sorry I did...


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 22, 2010, 04:20:26 PM
Dancing Bear, who/what is your new avatar?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: gsmile on March 22, 2010, 04:20:53 PM
Now I'm kinda sorry I did...

No need to apologize c-man.  The content of Mike's "eulogy" may have been controversial, but either way I enjoyed reading an important Beach Boys quote I'd never heard of before.  Thank you for taking the time to type it up.

I won't dissect Mike's character in reference to claims his wife or children have made, but in reference to his words on Dennis, I do believe he had good intentions.  Mike has never been a very eloquent man when it comes to "deep issues" and I have to agree with Wee Helper's theory of "mental feedback".  The line about beating Dennis to a pulp is quite odd though.  Regardless of the context of any harm Dennis might have been causing to Brian, it's still in very bad taste to mention this, especially so close to his passing.  


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 22, 2010, 04:36:35 PM
Dancing Bear, who/what is your new avatar?
Jards Macalé, Brazilian musician.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: oldsurferdude on March 22, 2010, 05:00:12 PM
By the way, thanks to C-man for taking the time to type this article.

Now I'm kinda sorry I did...
No need to be sorry-may dozens of accolades be your reward for doing so because it  so exposes Myk Luv's heinous nature. I only wish Dennis or someone else had had the chance to rearrange the baldster's face. :jedi


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 22, 2010, 06:11:40 PM
First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.
Let us all not forget that this was back in 1984. The "wounds" between Mike and Dennis were still fresh on his mind/heart. I think that when he made these comments, he was torn between missing a departed musical partner/band member, and hating the guy for all the shitty things he did to the band in the last three or so years of his life. Before anybody here jumps on my case about that last sentence(I can see it coming), let's just take a minute to think about it. Dennis did some really lousy stuff to the group. Showing up drunk to concerts, attempting to beat band members up at concerts, etc. Hell, the guy even showed up drunk at The White House. Dennis jeopardised the group in many ways in those last few years. For Mike in the immediate years following Dennis's death, it was a double edged sword. So, I can understand the somewhat backhanded compliments Mike makes in this interview. It took MBE's comment above for me to really think it through. Personally, I like to think of the Endless Harmony documentary as Mike's last word on Dennis. Yes, he said that Dennis had a "death wish", but he also ended the subject by basically saying "wherever he is now, I hope the guy's finally at peace".


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: MBE on March 22, 2010, 09:22:19 PM
First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.


My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise

You may have hit on something there as far as the solo tour goes. I do notice a change in Dennis shortly before that though. I'm sure the s--t he got about doing a solo album made him somewhat resentful.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: MBE on March 22, 2010, 09:43:40 PM
I noticed the posts concerning the punch from Steve. Listening to Dennis sing on concert tapes it seems that the incident happened in 1974. I have heard a late 1973 "Forever" that is very smooth and by 1975 he had the rasp firmly in place. I heard a 1974 interview where his voice is rough but I heard a few "Help Me Rhonda's" from that year where Dennis sounded OK. His voice seems to go back and forth in the 1974 film.

The incident with Rocky happened on Superbowl Sunday 1981. Notice that Dennis can talk a lot more clearly in 1980 then he could by the 1981 Long Beach footage.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 22, 2010, 09:56:29 PM
I noticed the posts concerning the punch from Steve. Listening to Dennis sing on concert tapes it seems that the incident happened in 1974. I have heard a late 1973 "Forever" that is very smooth and by 1975 he had the rasp firmly in place. I heard a 1974 interview where his voice his rough but I heard a few "Help Me Rhonda's" from that year where Dennis sounded OK. His voice seems to go back and forth in the 1974 film.

The incident with Rocky happened on Superbowl Sunday 1981. Notice that Dennis can talk a lot more clearly in 1980 then he could by the 1981 Long Beach footage.
I have heard him do "You Are So Beautiful" from a Madison Square Garden show the group did with Chicago in 1975. He sounds very raspy, but he still sounds like "young Dennis", if that makes sense. Like he sounded on Forever, just five years earlier. But by 1977 and on, not only does he sound raspy, but his voice has aged. It sounds like his voice(speaking AND singing) changed an entire pitch/octive. Listen to Under The Moonlight for a good example of what I mean.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on March 22, 2010, 10:15:58 PM
First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.


My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise

You may have hit on something there as far as the solo tour goes. I do notice a change in Dennis shortly before that though. I'm sure the s--t he got about doing a solo album made him somewhat resentful.
I think that his own brothers not supporting his music career hurt him more than we could ever imagine. I doubt that Mike, Al, Bruce or even Brian realise it, even today. Yes, Carl was supposed to be a part of Dennis' solo tour. But the fact that Carl went along with the final "group vote" probably "sealed the deal" for Dennis. He now knew just exactly what his family and band members thought of his music. Of course, I don't really believe, or think that way myself. I'm just trying to speak through Dennis's brain/emotions at the time. Even if Carl was outvoted, the fact that he caved in to the "group vote" probably said it all for Dennis.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: ? on March 23, 2010, 11:29:14 AM
First let me comment on the article. As far as Love bringing up the incident with Stan and Rocky it was in bad taste. That was horrible even though Dennis was in the wrong as far as what he did with Brian. As for the rest of the statement, he made some good points about how depressed Dennis was and how his condition hurt the band. It seems Mike may be one of the ones who thinks that Dennis no longer had the will to go on. I don't think Mike comes off as pro Dennis but I think he would have been a hypocrite if he had put on a phony upbeat attitude.

An observation in the 1974 tour film Dennis and Mike seem to be able to co-exist. They aren't buddies, but they can make it work well enough for the band to perform as a tight unit. Dennis teases Mike a bit, and Love seems to be slightly dismissive but they don't have to be sequestered from each other. By 1977 I suspect we would find quite a different picture. Why?

1. Mike wasn't easy to get along with and he as the years past he seemed to be on a ever increasing power trip .
2. Dennis (not to mention Carl and  Brian) was sliding into a lifestyle that caused him to loose his on stage professionalism. To me the It's OK special was the last footage where Dennis seems to be completely on his game.

Facts are they both were at fault and neither was in the right as far as how they treated each other. Dennis had a lot of qualities that Mike lacked, but he did bring the whole band down in the later years. Mike was a hard worker but not particularly sensitive to his band mates personal issues. In other words it isn't black and white and there are no clear cut good or bad guys at least to me.


My thoughts exactly.

I am certainly no fan of Mike's, but I would imagine that by 1977 Dennis was not a very good bandmate.

too bad Dennis met so much resistance to his proposed solo tour.  I am sure that is not unrelated to his troubles that led to his demise

You may have hit on something there as far as the solo tour goes. I do notice a change in Dennis shortly before that though. I'm sure the s--t he got about doing a solo album made him somewhat resentful.
I think that his own brothers not supporting his music career hurt him more than we could ever imagine. I doubt that Mike, Al, Bruce or even Brian realise it, even today. Yes, Carl was supposed to be a part of Dennis' solo tour. But the fact that Carl went along with the final "group vote" probably "sealed the deal" for Dennis. He now knew just exactly what his family and band members thought of his music. Of course, I don't really believe, or think that way myself. I'm just trying to speak through Dennis's brain/emotions at the time. Even if Carl was outvoted, the fact that he caved in to the "group vote" probably said it all for Dennis.

So the solo tour was voted down by the band then?  I wasn't aware of that.  I was under the impression that Dennis backed out of it himself due to insecurity.  No idea if I read that somewhere or my mind just made it up along the way...


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Rocker on March 23, 2010, 01:36:19 PM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."




It's the only thing I want to post on this topic, but you do know that he was just making fun of all the people who actually say that Brian is crazy, don't you?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jon Stebbins on March 23, 2010, 01:48:20 PM
So the solo tour was voted down by the band then?  I wasn't aware of that.  I was under the impression that Dennis backed out of it himself due to insecurity.  No idea if I read that somewhere or my mind just made it up along the way...
There are plenty of sources who will verify Dennis' insecurity, however, there are multiple eyewitnesses and informed insiders (Stan Shapiro, Gregg Jakobson, Karen Lamm and others) that recounted an absolute ultimatum was given to Dennis in Nov. '77, do the solo tour or be in the Beach Boys...your choice. He was told he could not do both.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 23, 2010, 02:06:45 PM
EDIT: I just wanted to add that whenever I picture Rocky and Stan brutally beating up Dennis, I get sad and almost cry. It's definitely a sad emotion. But what does Mike do in the interview? He laughs about it. In my opinion that's shameful.

How did you feel when Dennis appeared on a national TV special, laughing, and saying about his brother, Brian, "He's crazy..."




It's the only thing I want to post on this topic, but you do know that he was just making fun of all the people who actually say that Brian is crazy, don't you?

Actually, I don't know that. Dennis spent a few sentences prior to that quote explaining how he saw "nothing wrong with staying in the house..." among a few other reasons why Brian wasn't really "crazy". I didn't find Dennis' explanation convincing, and, I always thought DENNIS didn't believe it, finally relenting (and these are my words), "OK, maybe he IS crazy. Ha ha...."

I do remember reading an article about a time Dennis found Brian lying on the floor, curled up in a ball, weeping, and it scared Dennis. And, TDHabib informed us that Dennis used to visit Brian's house every day to help him when Brian was declining into MENTAL ILLNESS. Every day. Check the WNEW interview from 1976. So, I believe that Dennis DID BELIEVE that Brian was mentally ill, not making fun of other people who were saying it.

But, hey, that's just my opinion. Wait a few minutes and I'm sure you'll get about a dozen people who will disagree with me and agree with you... :police:


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 23, 2010, 02:11:45 PM
So the solo tour was voted down by the band then?  I wasn't aware of that.  I was under the impression that Dennis backed out of it himself due to insecurity.  No idea if I read that somewhere or my mind just made it up along the way...
There are plenty of sources who will verify Dennis' insecurity, however, there are multiple eyewitnesses and informed insiders (Stan Shapiro, Gregg Jakobson, Karen Lamm and others) that recounted an absolute ultimatum was given to Dennis in Nov. '77, do the solo tour or be in the Beach Boys...your choice. He was told he could not do both.

Jon, not doubting your sources/research, but it begs the questions...Who gave the ultimatum, and why, less than six months later, the "permission" to tour solo was given to Mike? Shortly after that Carl. Eventually Brian. And finally Al. Why single out Dennis?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Howie Edelson on March 23, 2010, 02:39:08 PM
Sheriff John Stone you've posted Two T-H-O-U-S-A-N-D Nine H-U-N-D-R-E-D and Thirty-Two times on a Beach Boys message board. Why do YOU think??? Why do YOU think an ultimatum was given??? All this insane posting and you can't figure out the difference between Dennis Wilson touring solo and Mike Love playing live dates and what that means???

I mean, it gets to a point where it's just posting for posting's sake, no???


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 23, 2010, 02:59:23 PM
So the solo tour was voted down by the band then?  I wasn't aware of that.  I was under the impression that Dennis backed out of it himself due to insecurity.  No idea if I read that somewhere or my mind just made it up along the way...
There are plenty of sources who will verify Dennis' insecurity, however, there are multiple eyewitnesses and informed insiders (Stan Shapiro, Gregg Jakobson, Karen Lamm and others) that recounted an absolute ultimatum was given to Dennis in Nov. '77, do the solo tour or be in the Beach Boys...your choice. He was told he could not do both.

Jon, not doubting your sources/research, but it begs the questions...Who gave the ultimatum, and why, less than six months later, the "permission" to tour solo was given to Mike? Shortly after that Carl. Eventually Brian. And finally Al. Why single out Dennis?

You really, really don't know your basic Beach Boys history at all, do you ?

Mike 'touring' with Celebration - one live show (at which both Brian & Carl turned up), one TV appearance (with Brian) late May/early June when the BB weren't touring. Hardly a 'tour'.

Carl's solo tours 1981 - well, duh, he'd left the band at this point (btw, 1981 is not 'shortly after' spring 1978, it's three years later).

Brian - not in the band in 1999.

Alan - not in the band in 1998 (so hardly 'finally', either).

This is not arcane, withheld information: it's common, basic BB knowledge. Here's a hint - if you're going to try to make a point, check that what you're saying has some kind of foundation in fact. That way, you won't get folk here assuming your BB knowledge is, at best, minimal. If not, I'll find out your real name, where you live, come round and strangle your kittens. Or something equally inappropriate. We're like that in cyberspace.  ;D


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Sheriff John Stone on March 23, 2010, 03:03:04 PM
Howie, no. No, it's not just posting for posting's sake. I'm assuming you've been following the board, and several threads lately have been debunking rumors, myths, and untruths. This particular issue has always mystified me.

First, why would Mike give an ultimatum like that? All I read is that Mike hated Dennis the person, the drummer, the drug addict, the songwriter. You would think that Mike would be the last person to keep Dennis from going solo. You would think that Mike would be saying, "Please, Dennis, do it. Go. Don't hurry back..." You would think Mike (or Carl) would be happy to plug in another drummer (and onstage singer). With all due respect to Dennis, and I think POB is easily the best solo album of the bunch, his absence on stage would hardly dent the quality of the shows OR the gate, despite Dennis being the "sex symbol" of the group. And, POB wouldn't/didn't hurt Beach Boys' sales; there is always a "cross sale" of albums when a group member goes solo.

Second, are you saying that Dennis simply "backed down" to Mike? Mike Love gives Dennis Wilson an ultimatum, and Dennis says, "OK Mike". That's hard to believe. And, what kind of "ultimatum" are you talking about? They met in a back alley...or a bowling alley? Wouldn't something like that have to come to a vote? Who represented Dennis at the meeting when the solo tour was proposed? They didn't do their job very well.

And, finally, I'll repeat the question. If it was/is OK for ALL of the other guys to do solo dates, why not Dennis? I ask you Howie (or soon Jon when he checks in to hammer me). I'm sorry for repeating myself but...the quality of the shows would not be compromised, and they could've avoided a lot of headaches; what was the motivation behind the ultimatum?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 23, 2010, 03:09:07 PM
Why this assumption that it was Mike who issued the ultimatum ? No-one's said that. Except you.

BTW, you ask what the ultimatum was... which is odd, as Jon has stated exactly what it was on this very page, less than an hour ago. You're not reading this thread, just ploughing on with your own idee fixee as to how things were.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: oldsurferdude on March 23, 2010, 03:22:25 PM
Sheriff John Stone you've posted Two T-H-O-U-S-A-N-D Nine H-U-N-D-R-E-D and Thirty-Two times on a Beach Boys message board. Why do YOU think??? Why do YOU think an ultimatum was given??? All this insane posting and you can't figure out the difference between Dennis Wilson touring solo and Mike Love playing live dates and what that means???

I mean, it gets to a point where it's just posting for posting's sake, no???
Not to mention the 972 posts on the Shut Down board-(is this sheriff shooting for some kinda record?) Loquacious, verbose and mostly a bore, especially in his perforated daily defense of Myk Luv, this M L wannabe is a grand master of laughable baffoonery who is only interested in putting his opinion in front of people who just don't care. Post  a topic, he'll be there-guarenteed! He'll take his time and your time to say in a hundred words what most people could say in twenty two. Ah, but that's where it gets even better-beware of disagreeing with this chap and yo'll get it right back in the good ol' kisser because HE KNOWS BETTER!! :o


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 23, 2010, 03:41:44 PM
Questioning old BB myths won't hurt anyone here. You know, when we lwat expect, James William Guercio can give an interview where he states that Carl and Dennis gave their welcome with open arms to the inclusion of more oldies in the set list in 73/74, and we all have to rewrite our truths.  :)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: ? on March 23, 2010, 03:48:47 PM
So the solo tour was voted down by the band then?  I wasn't aware of that.  I was under the impression that Dennis backed out of it himself due to insecurity.  No idea if I read that somewhere or my mind just made it up along the way...
There are plenty of sources who will verify Dennis' insecurity, however, there are multiple eyewitnesses and informed insiders (Stan Shapiro, Gregg Jakobson, Karen Lamm and others) that recounted an absolute ultimatum was given to Dennis in Nov. '77, do the solo tour or be in the Beach Boys...your choice. He was told he could not do both.

Ah.  Thanks for the info, Jon.  Count me among those waiting on that revised edition of The Real Beach Boy!


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: OneEar/OneEye on March 23, 2010, 04:22:54 PM
Though I guess I understand why he didn't, I think it would have been great if he'd said "screw you guys" and gone and done the tour.   The band was in a creative coma they'd never really ever come out of.   He's really the only one outside of Brian and Bruce that had any real potential for having a solo career.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 23, 2010, 04:41:19 PM
If not, I'll find out your real name, where you live, come round and strangle your kittens. Or something equally inappropriate.
And that would be cheap as it will require air fare from England to the US, no? ;D


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jason on March 23, 2010, 05:38:23 PM
If not, I'll find out your real name, where you live, come round and strangle your kittens. Or something equally inappropriate. We're like that in cyberspace.  ;D

On this board it has gone from members wanting to punch people in the head, to telling their wives to join the circus, and now Andrew wants to strangle someone's kittens. GOD, NOT THE KITTENS! WHERE'S THE HUMANITY? YOU ARE ALL RUFFIANS! I HEREBY RESIGN FROM THE BOARD FOREVER!!!!!1111oneoneone  :lol

As far as the "ultimatum", that came from all of the band, including Carl. There is no clear cut "bad guy" in that scenario. Might as well damn the whole band minus Dennis in that equation. But Dennis could have easily done the tour, as we all know he was by no means afraid of anyone in the band. I'd chalk it up to a case of cold feet.

And it should be noted that the closest Michael ever came to a solo "tour" was a very limited set of engagements in late 1981 to promote Looking Back With Love, and a few of them were canceled. And I don't even think Michael took Celebration seriously enough to even consider doing a tour with them. As stated, one show and a TV gig, both with Brian and Al, with Carl as well for the show.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: urbanite on March 23, 2010, 06:15:46 PM
I went to one of Mike's solo shows to promote his album.  He did a fairly long set with Jeff Foskett and it was pretty good.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: gsmile on March 23, 2010, 08:23:43 PM
For the record, I gotta say I've always enjoyed Sherrif's posts on this board...nothing wrong with questioning Beach Boys myths, especially when there's not much "new" news to talk about.  In a speculative sense, a lot of Sherrif's posts have been insightful and usually with a humorous bent.  I can only come to the conclusion that the Mr. Michael Love himself is using his Jedi Mind Tricks to turn the members of this board against each other.  SMILEY SMILERS UNITE!  There is a greater evil than ourselves out there...and he wears old man caps and glitter adorned vests.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 23, 2010, 09:45:06 PM
Quote
Questioning old BB myths won't hurt anyone here.
Inane posting might (and by current evidence does).


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 23, 2010, 09:50:17 PM
Quote
Questioning old BB myths won't hurt anyone here.
Inane posting might (and by current evidence does).
Inane posting should be ignored at best. The "You just don't get, do you?" kind of answer won't take us anywhere and is way more harmful.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 23, 2010, 09:56:36 PM
Ah, good old Rob ;D


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 23, 2010, 10:04:55 PM
You said it, not me.  ;D


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: b00ts on March 23, 2010, 11:23:03 PM
Quote
Questioning old BB myths won't hurt anyone here.
Inane posting might (and by current evidence does).
Inane posting should be ignored at best. The "You just don't get, do you?" kind of answer won't take us anywhere and is way more harmful.
Let me add to the inane posting by saying "agreed." I sat down with a sandwich and noticed that this thread had grown two pages since I last read it; I was excited to read more about the Beach Boys but instead found increasingly diminishing returns.

Luckily, the sandwich was delicious.

I have wondered at certain points if SJS was Mike Love himself, but we do need a "devil's advocate" around here, don't we?

So, let me start the Beach Boys discussion back up. Is it true that Dennis and Mike had a baby together, and if so how is that possible? Please be specific and support your answers.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: ♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇 on March 23, 2010, 11:37:38 PM
Alright guys...for real...let's try to be cordial.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: MBE on March 24, 2010, 12:49:13 AM
My view on the Dennis tour is that it didn't go through because of bad timing.

First he was regularly showing up to gigs stoned or drunk by late 1977. Perhaps he would have been more motivated to have his act together on a solo jaunt, but he was reaching the point to where he couldn't be counted on completely. I say all that with a great deal of sadness because the Dennis who had started POB several years earlier would have done a terrific job.

Second is that the band was in more turmoil then ever before. At the time Carl was in worse shape then either of his brothers. Brian wasn't going to or wasn't able to defend Dennis. The group had just broken up, ultimately getting back together because the huge CBS deal was at stake. I suspect that Dennis felt more vulnerable then normal when he was threatened with expulsion. Sure he could have just done the tour anyway but it wasn't like he had a top ten album or single to ride on. As good as the shows may have been artistically, he couldn't have known for sure if he had a long term career away from the band. Had this all occured during a time when the band was more stable and he was more stable perhaps he wouldn't have had to give up the tour to remain in the group.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: smile-holland on March 24, 2010, 02:02:42 AM
MBE, I think you pretty much nailed it. It's a sum of factors that probably caused this ultimatum (or whatever you call it).


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jonas on March 24, 2010, 03:30:06 AM
This thread is class. :lol


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: smile-holland on March 24, 2010, 03:57:36 AM
And in adddition to what the other mods have said.

1. Some of us are thinkers, others debaters. Some of us share their great knowledge of facts. A few like to search confrontation.
2. Some have an objective look on things, others more subjective.
3. Some of us have a favourite Beach Boy (or a few), some don't.
4. Some have a more black-&-white view on the group (and it's individual members), other see it in a broader perspective.

But overreacting or attacking isn't the way to respond. You don't have to agree on someone else's opinion. It would be a boring place to be if we couldn't discuss at all on this messageboard. But you can at least try to accept an opinion that differs from yours.

And if you do feel unhappy or insulted by a remark:
- count to 10 first;
- reply in case you want to get clarified a specific remark: he or she might have meant it totally different than what you thought.
- if necesary report it to us (there is a report button under each post);
- and - PLEASE - don't try to surpass a (possible) insult by responding in a similar way x 200%. At least show some dignity by responding in a way you'd like to be treated as well.

We're all grown-ups here... I think... I hope...


And questioning someone's credibility on this board based on the number of posts is ridiculous (Btw, I've noticed that at least one other member has posted way more overhere.  :-D   ). Same goes for member-names (my name isn't really SMiLE-Holland... serious!).

So the "privacy on worldwideweb"-remarks came across as an - ehm - "an unfortunate choice of words". Can happen. Happens to many of us. I've never seen that much negativity in responses to Sheriff's contributions. Yes, when yet another topic that turns into a Mike*=bad / Dennis*=good  (* and you can pick other names as well), the Sheriff often tries to put things in a broad perspective by giving an example that differs 180 degrees, because - as we all know - virtually nothing is a black & white story when it comes to the Beach Boys. It certainly doesn't make him a Mike-defender (or a Dennis attacker for that matter).

So we regularly condemn behaviour of some members of the Beach Boys... yet we don't have problems mentally/virtually bashing each other on a messageboard. Pretty silly isn't it?




... somewhere in a parallel universe there's a messageboard for Beach boys members only in which they discuss dumb discussions on other messageboards, and I'm sure they're having a lot of fun ridiculing our behaviour on this topic...  ::)   by now they're convinced some of us here are behaving equally "human" as they have in their lives...


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Cam Mott on March 24, 2010, 07:17:51 AM
Well, I don't know what Denny had planned for a tour but is it really out of line for a band to expect a member to choose between his own thing and the band thing if they conflict?  Was it a temporary ultimatum until his solo thing was done or a you're out of the band for good ultimatum?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: BillA on March 24, 2010, 08:19:24 AM
Just an observation - it would have been in everybody's interest to let Dennis tour.  I am not sure of what the downside would have been.

Just anpther in a long list of Beach Boy decisions that defy logic


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Howie Edelson on March 24, 2010, 08:30:09 AM
"SMILE-Holland" I don't know if you've ever encountered a toddler who asks "Why?" "Why?" "Why?" “Why?” “ Why?" -- and no matter how descriptive, well meaning, accurate and loving an answer, just will not stop asking "Why?"

I take umbrage that you used MY quote below the posting "At least show some dignity by responding in a way you'd like to be treated as well."

I bring an intelligence and historical knowledge to this board -- as do my friends and peers here who do likewise. I realize that others lack the insight, the passion, or prowess to demonstrate it in writing -- but by asking anyone who brazenly refuses to use cognitive thought while clogging nearly EVERY thread as to why THEY think something is so (after an obese number of postings under their belt) is more than warranted.

This isn't Dungeons & Dragons. I use my name, I post my email. I'm proud of what I know -- I stand behind what I say. Not afraid of “stalkers.” Not really afraid of anything.

One might say I show “dignity” in people knowing who they’re talking to at any given time, “SMILE-Holland.”

Regarding Dennis Wilson’s aborted 1977 tour – he was going to use all if not most of the Beach Boys’ entire backline. Apologies if I offended anybody by pointing that out 36 pages into this thread.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Cam Mott on March 24, 2010, 09:24:00 AM
Quote from: Howie Edelson link=topic
Regarding Dennis Wilson’s aborted 1977 tour – he was going to use all if not most of the Beach Boys’ entire backline.

Howie,

How was it planned to work? Coordinated noncompeting dates, Denny as the BB's opening act?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: smile-holland on March 24, 2010, 09:25:33 AM
Howie: first my apologies, I started responding on this topic by using the quote button on your response. I simply forgot - while typing my answer(s) - to remove that quote. I didn't mean to specifically direct my message to you, and certainly not specifically to connect that quote to my response (especially the "dignity" part). Therefore I removed the quote. My message was meant for everybody here (and your responses happened to be one of the reasons to do so, as I thought the "number of posts" example wasn't relevant).

So as you can see, I make mistakes as well.  :)

And I indeed appreciate your input and knowledge. Not everybody has the privilege to have been around from early on in the group's history.
But there are also fans that aren't so well into all the facts yet. And there are also fans that have been around for a longer time, but still have a lot of questions or like to wonder "what if" or "why"... And they will be around for a long while. You could say I'm a toddler too, but I happen to be more of a reader than a writer.
Anyway - even if you (or me) don't like it - imo it's better to ignore that type of discussions.

Especially when it comes to discussions that involves relations between Brian or Mike, Dennis or Mike, etc., I'm surprised to see how intense and sometimes mean discussions get. And that saddens me sometimes. (also a reason for me to respond here)


As for the use of names. You don't have a problem using your own name. And frankly, I don't either; nowadays I might have chosen my own name as well. At the time I simply chose a name I liked with no deeper thought behind it. I hope you don't mind that.  :)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Howie Edelson on March 24, 2010, 10:13:43 AM
Thank you. That's appreciated.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jon Stebbins on March 24, 2010, 10:15:40 AM
There is a long pattern here. Many years. I've seen SJS say in a post (not in reply to me) he does not like it when other posters defer to "experts" or insiders just because they are experts or insiders. I'm the same way actually, and my positions have evolved because in my research I have questioned the standard or general consensus instead of cutting and pasting them. Challenging or dismissing a known expert's opinion or position takes courage, far less if its done anonymously I believe. You don't really have to be credible if no one knows who you are...so, you can say anything. I don't have that luxury. I have to be able to back up the things I say or post. I have previously, and in this thread, stated the bit about the POB tour ultimatum. Its been well researched. There were other factors that influenced things, but the overriding factor was not bad timing, or Dennis' lack of confidence, or his substance problems, or the label's pressure, or anything else. Dates were booked, the band was rehearsed, the record was selling, and the Beach Boys killed the tour. No way Dennis was going to give up his Beach Boys income in 1977 cold turkey, and no way he was going to separate from HIS band. The BB's were not interested in letting him test the solo waters at their expense. Despite what some people might say to diffuse this fact, there was a HUGE amount of resentment within the BB's toward Dennis' mini-success with POB. Carl was supportive but not in fighting shape at the time. And...Dennis was weak enough, or lacked the confidence to find a way around the fact that the BB's were essentially shutting his tour aspirations down. What happened later is relevant in that this incident influenced the spiral. I do not believe it caused it, that would be silly...but it was one heartbreaking factor that nudged it significantly. It also was motivation for Dennis to blow everything else up, and to make Mike's life on stage miserable etc.. etc.. That may seem petty, or it may seem fair depending on your position and perspective, but I think its true, to what degree its true can certainly be debated. SJS repeatedly through the years has always followed my assertion that this ultimatum event occurred with, "I don't believe that" or something similar. Then it gets to be bang your head against the wall time. Because even though i know what I know...and even though i have many years of research, access, and inside connection directly to this subject matter, he's not buying it...that and a few other things too. I want to share what I've learned. I like to share it because I feel lucky to have access to materials and people that other people do not...and I feel lucky there are people here who appreciate what insights i can bring to them. I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.

The short circuiting of this thread is unfortunate, but predictable. There is a pattern, I'm not exactly sure why, but I for one want to continue to share what i learn, and the revelation that fresh knowledge can sometimes point to. C-man's orig. post with Mike's comments to me had an inflammatory element that needed to be called out. I did that, with the knowledge that all of you know who i am, and that I said what i said on the public record, knowing I WILL be talking to Mike Love himself again at some point. I'm not afraid, Howie's not afraid, AGD's not afraid. No awards necessary. However, at least consider the fact that we're not spewing from the hip with no possibility of accountability. That should be worth something.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Alex on March 24, 2010, 10:28:03 AM
RAWRRRRRRR!!! Mike Love is evil!!!! End of story!  :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol ;) ;) ;)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Emdeeh on March 24, 2010, 10:45:11 AM
I'm not afraid, Howie's not afraid, AGD's not afraid. No awards necessary. However, at least consider the fact that we're not spewing from the hip with no possibility of accountability. That should be worth something.

It is worth something in these parts. Many thanks to all three of you for your ongoing scholarship, one of the things that makes this board a valuable resource.







Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: kirt on March 24, 2010, 10:52:21 AM
 Well said Jon and thank you for the insight.  
 I always enjoy  Ed's and your post when it concerns Dennis .
  
 Dennis is defiantly one complex dude and lived on a different plane than most.

 


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Paulos on March 24, 2010, 10:52:57 AM
I'm not afraid, Howie's not afraid, AGD's not afraid. No awards necessary. However, at least consider the fact that we're not spewing from the hip with no possibility of accountability. That should be worth something.

It is worth something in these parts. Many thanks to all three of you for your ongoing scholarship, one of the things that makes this board a valuable resource.


I also appreciate it greatly, I think I've learnt as much from this and the shutdown board than I have from all the books I've read on the boys and this is down to the knowledge and information provided by all board members and especially from people like Jon and Andrew. Not kissing up to them, sometimes I disagree with certain views that they may express but I never doubt the information they give as they always back it up with sources and detailed explanations.



Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: TdHabib on March 24, 2010, 11:09:14 AM
Despite what some people might say to diffuse this fact, there was a HUGE amount of resentment within the BB's toward Dennis' mini-success with POB.
I've heard Alan say this semi-repeatedly over the years.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 24, 2010, 11:46:48 AM
I don't ressent any insider or researcher's contribution to this message board. Sometimes they bring stuff I enjoy reading, sometimes not. I'll survive.  :)

Anyway, I'm no moderator and maybe I'm going out of line, but.... In the end of the day, SJS (or anyone else) has the right to post or question whatever he wants. Even if Al Jardine himself posted here and complained about whoever's inane posting, I'd say the same. I think that's how it works.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 24, 2010, 11:59:29 AM
In the end of the day, SJS (or anyone else) has the right to post or question whatever he wants.

No arguments from me on that score.

However...

As Howie said, he's like a small child that just keeps asking "but why ?" even when something has been explained to him in words of one syllable some dozen times. My father had a saying: "can't make someone listen to something they don't want to hear". Plus, he wasn't reading - or was ignoring - what was posted on the thread, as was demonstrated by his asking about the 'ultimatum' less than an hour after Jon explained it. That's edging into troll territory.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Dancing Bear on March 24, 2010, 12:28:36 PM
Observation noted.

But I think guys like SJS and Cam Mott, who ask all the wrong (or right) questions make us go fowards, not backwards.

I guess SJS can be questioned as well about his line of posting, but if there were less of a sensation of ganging up over the guy, or the tone were more civil towards him, the goals would be reached more easily. Just an idea.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 24, 2010, 01:06:13 PM
Cam is a shining example of how to ask the right wrong questions: he does his research, and he listens.

As for 'ganging up' on SJS, can't speak for Jon or Howie, but I did what I usually do whenever I see someone presenting gross misinformation as factual support for their premise.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: smile-holland on March 24, 2010, 02:51:03 PM
Observation noted.

But I think guys like SJS and Cam Mott, who ask all the wrong (or right) questions make us go fowards, not backwards.

I guess SJS can be questioned as well about his line of posting, but if there were less of a sensation of ganging up over the guy, or the tone were more civil towards him, the goals would be reached more easily. Just an idea.

Agreed.

And can we please get back on-topic? Points are made clear by now.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: oldsurferdude on March 24, 2010, 02:59:18 PM
And in adddition to what the other mods have said.

1. Some of us are thinkers, others debaters. Some of us share their great knowledge of facts. A few like to search confrontation.
2. Some have an objective look on things, others more subjective.
3. Some of us have a favourite Beach Boy (or a few), some don't.
4. Some have a more black-&-white view on the group (and it's individual members), other see it in a broader perspective.

But overreacting or attacking isn't the way to respond. You don't have to agree on someone else's opinion. It would be a boring place to be if we couldn't discuss at all on this messageboard. But you can at least try to accept an opinion that differs from yours.

And if you do feel unhappy or insulted by a remark:
- count to 10 first;
- reply in case you want to get clarified a specific remark: he or she might have meant it totally different than what you thought.
- if necesary report it to us (there is a report button under each post);
- and - PLEASE - don't try to surpass a (possible) insult by responding in a similar way x 200%. At least show some dignity by responding in a way you'd like to be treated as well.

We're all grown-ups here... I think... I hope...


And questioning someone's credibility on this board based on the number of posts is ridiculous (Btw, I've noticed that at least one other member has posted way more overhere.  :-D   ). Same goes for member-names (my name isn't really SMiLE-Holland... serious!).

So the "privacy on worldwideweb"-remarks came across as an - ehm - "an unfortunate choice of words". Can happen. Happens to many of us. I've never seen that much negativity in responses to Sheriff's contributions. Yes, when yet another topic that turns into a Mike*=bad / Dennis*=good  (* and you can pick other names as well), the Sheriff often tries to put things in a broad perspective by giving an example that differs 180 degrees, because - as we all know - virtually nothing is a black & white story when it comes to the Beach Boys. It certainly doesn't make him a Mike-defender (or a Dennis attacker for that matter).

So we regularly condemn behaviour of some members of the Beach Boys... yet we don't have problems mentally/virtually bashing each other on a messageboard. Pretty silly isn't it?




... somewhere in a parallel universe there's a messageboard for Beach boys members only in which they discuss dumb discussions on other messageboards, and I'm sure they're having a lot of fun ridiculing our behaviour on this topic...  ::)   by now they're convinced some of us here are behaving equally "human" as they have in their lives...
Ok, as long as he cools it with those mouse jokes! ;)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on March 24, 2010, 04:35:42 PM
I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.

This is the kinda stuff I wanna hear about...it makes me salivate.  For Cam Mott and anyone else interested in the chronology of Dennis' aborted solo tour, I gleaned info from many different sources (including Jon, interviews with people like Bobby Figueroa and Wayne Tweed from Record Collector and the pages of ESQ, and the actual musician's union contracts that for the tour rehearsals), and wrote what I hope is a pretty thorough synopsis.  It's at http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Ed Roach on March 24, 2010, 05:36:07 PM
Despite what some people might say to diffuse this fact, there was a HUGE amount of resentment within the BB's toward Dennis' mini-success with POB.
I've heard Alan say this semi-repeatedly over the years.
Alan said something to this effect to me just recently.  What most people don't give credence to is the fact that this wasn't necessarily a "mini-success"; it was the biggest selling album by a 'new' artist on the Billboard charts of that year.  (And it could have been a monster, had he toured, and had we done the TV campaign that my "River Song" video would have started.)
I never got to add an additional post to my earlier one, (sorry, Fear 2 Stop® & Sound of Free ), as this thread became bizarre for awhile, but I will - eventually....  I'm actually learning things from these posts; Jon doesn't quote me, because I had my own myopic view of why the tour went awry.  I'll be back, but thanks for allowing me to see things in a new & different light


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: BillA on March 24, 2010, 06:19:24 PM
So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: BillA on March 24, 2010, 06:22:33 PM
I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.

I love the article.  It is the first I have heard of a Van Morrison/Beach Boy connection which, given that my favorite three acts were/are the Beach Boys, The Beatles and Van the Man, is pretty cool.
This is the kinda stuff I wanna hear about...it makes me salivate.  For Cam Mott and anyone else interested in the chronology of Dennis' aborted solo tour, I gleaned info from many different sources (including Jon, interviews with people like Bobby Figueroa and Wayne Tweed from Record Collector and the pages of ESQ, and the actual musician's union contracts that for the tour rehearsals), and wrote what I hope is a pretty thorough synopsis.  It's at http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: jeremylr on March 24, 2010, 06:42:42 PM
This goes with Craig's (aka cman) outstanding research article on POB/Bambu, but to read about Dennis's aborted tour from folks who were there , scroll down to pages 27 & 28.   The full article is about 70 pages long in pdf.  Here's the link again:


http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on March 24, 2010, 07:35:03 PM
This goes with Craig's (aka cman) outstanding research article on POB/Bambu, but to read about Dennis's aborted tour from folks who were there , scroll down to pages 27 & 28.   The full article is about 70 pages long in pdf.  Here's the link again:


http://www.tiptopwebsite.com/custommusic2/craigslowinskicom2.pdf#page=1

I meant the link to go straight to that page, but didn't do it right.  Thanks.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 24, 2010, 10:54:29 PM
So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: MBE on March 24, 2010, 11:48:46 PM
Jon: I for one like your insight and don't mind being corrected if I have a theory that's not 100 percent on target. What you had to say was very much appreciated.

Ed: I enjoy reading anything you have to say regarding Dennis. Thank you for being here.



Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on March 25, 2010, 04:30:35 AM
So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.

Actually, Landy was fired at the end of '76.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Cam Mott on March 25, 2010, 07:37:21 AM
Excellent work as always Craig-man.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on March 25, 2010, 12:12:54 PM
So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.

Actually, Landy was fired at the end of '76.

That he was. Mea culpa.

But the rest is pretty spot on, no ?  ;D


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on March 25, 2010, 04:09:11 PM
I really don't understand the fury directed at Sheriff Jonn Stone!

How come it is ok to gloss over anything Dennis might have done wrong (as in, statutory rapes, repeated cheatings, punching out Mike, etc.....) and then jump all over someone who defends a simple 26 year old quote from Mike?

All Mike did was mention that Dennis was attacked for supplying drugs to Brian. He didn't say it was right and all he did was chuckle at the fact that Stan was 6'8 or 6'9 meaniing it was a lopsided fight!

Both men (Dennis/Mike) cousins/friends/bandmates/sometime enemies did some awful things to others, each other, and themselves. Dennis gave us amazing music and Mike contributed a lot of great stuff too. Just because we "like" one guy better than the other, we shouldn't be so provincial and star-struck-worshipping in our thinking.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Awesoman on March 25, 2010, 09:29:07 PM
SJS repeatedly through the years has always followed my assertion that this ultimatum event occurred with, "I don't believe that" or something similar. Then it gets to be bang your head against the wall time. Because even though i know what I know...and even though i have many years of research, access, and inside connection directly to this subject matter, he's not buying it...that and a few other things too.


I have a question for you Jon: Why let it get to you if some random individual on the other side of the Internet doesn't believe what you're saying?  You have nothing to prove here; you've had remarkable experiences with the band and it is very cool that you share them with us in this forum.  If the good Sheriff (or anybody, for that matter) doesn't want to believe what you're saying, let that be his problem...not yours.  Food for thought.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jon Stebbins on March 25, 2010, 10:48:23 PM
SJS repeatedly through the years has always followed my assertion that this ultimatum event occurred with, "I don't believe that" or something similar. Then it gets to be bang your head against the wall time. Because even though i know what I know...and even though i have many years of research, access, and inside connection directly to this subject matter, he's not buying it...that and a few other things too.


I have a question for you Jon: Why let it get to you if some random individual on the other side of the Internet doesn't believe what you're saying?  You have nothing to prove here; you've had remarkable experiences with the band and it is very cool that you share them with us in this forum.  If the good Sheriff (or anybody, for that matter) doesn't want to believe what you're saying, let that be his problem...not yours.  Food for thought.
Letting it get to me is a matter of degrees I guess. I've had some productive exchanges with SJS before, after, and even during the contentious ones. Really, its true. We've had some very cordial moments, those don't stand out to observers I'm sure. Its been a mixed bag. I've tried my best to move past any residual negativity, many times. Problem? Not really. More of a sometimes aggravating challenge. I don't consider SJS a random individual, he's something more like a fixture. One that tends to directly disagree with me a lot of the time, probably more than anyone else I can think of through the ten years I've been participating in these type of forums. Therefore, to me, he stands out. He certainly is nowhere near the most aggressive, disrespectful or threatening person to disagree with me on a message board. I've been kicked around real good by some other people in a manner SJS has never approached. He's just the most prolific and consistent presence who isn't buying what I'm selling much of the time, and IMO at times it really doesn't matter how much evidence or rationale i produce. Again, that's my perspective, and I really try to remind myself its just that, one man's perspective. So, i take a deep breath, regroup, and come back for more... Because these forums are where BB's obsessives, hardcore fans, people like me, who truly love the BB's music, gather. There's bound to be a few that I don't get along with and a few more who think I'm full of it. I may get pissed off for a bit...but I'm not losing any sleep over it, you can be sure of that. I've got a family, a wife, two daughters, two dogs and a cat. They are what my life is really about. But thanks for the food for thought, yours is a valid point.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Mike's Beard on April 08, 2010, 02:17:16 PM
I'll put my hand in the air - I never knew the POB tour was pulled due to the group voting against it. I always thought Dennis got cold feet on the idea.  To be honest the big bag of cash from the CBS advance MUST have been the only factor in Dennis's decsion to tolarate this. This is a case of literally taking a dump on a guy's musical dreams due to jealosy. I wish Dennis HAD told them to go to hell and quit to do the solo thang. Carl had the balls to do it a few years down the line but alas he didn't have the tunes to back the gesture up. Denny did.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on April 08, 2010, 10:58:56 PM
So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.
Reading something like this upsets me in ways I can't even describe. So many things went wrong for The Beach Boys. So, what you are saying is that Dennis and Carl were pretty much outvoted almost before the vote was even made? Theoretically speaking, I mean. The thing with Brian possibly not even knowing of all this make it ten times worse. Sometimes I just want to rip out my hair.  :wall  :angry  :ahh


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 08, 2010, 11:01:28 PM
You have to bear in mind, had Brian not handed his vote to Mike, the outcome could have been so different. Sometimes I wish he'd showed just a little backbone...


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on April 08, 2010, 11:07:54 PM
I love Brian as much as everybody else here, but sometims his "wimp-ishness" annoys the hell out of me.  ;D


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on April 08, 2010, 11:10:20 PM
You have to bear in mind, had Brian not handed his vote to Mike, the outcome could have been so different. Sometimes I wish he'd showed just a little backbone...
I wonder if things would have been different if the "tarmac incident" had happened about 10 years earlier. Hell, even three or fours years earlier....


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: A Million Units In Jan! on April 09, 2010, 05:57:00 AM
You have to bear in mind, had Brian not handed his vote to Mike, the outcome could have been so different. Sometimes I wish he'd showed just a little backbone...

Is it a question of whether he had 'backbone', or a question of he just didn't give a sh*t?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 09, 2010, 06:03:20 AM
OK... but if you're going to give your vote to anyone, surely someone with the same surname would - should - be your first choice ?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Mike's Beard on April 09, 2010, 11:36:11 AM
I'm not 100% sure how this works legally but if Brian did not want to participate in corporate meetings shouldn't he have gave his vote to a third party? His wife perhaps? Giving it to a guy who already had a vote makes no sense. Handing it to Mike meant from a technical/legal standpoint there were essentially 2 separate Mike Love's in BRI? And if it would mean supporting his brother in an artistic sense then Brian SHOULD have gave a merda!


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: slothrop on April 09, 2010, 11:49:04 AM
OK... but if you're going to give your vote to anyone, surely someone with the same surname would - should - be your first choice ?

You would imagine so...but isn't there that more contemporary footage of Brian calling Mike "our main guy" along with Carl in Endless Harmony I think. It seems Brian has always had an image of Mike as the lead Beach Boy, even when Carl was doing most of the production, etc. Of course, Brian could feel completely different, but he's always appeared to tout Mike as the "face" of the Beach Boys I suppose.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on April 09, 2010, 08:43:06 PM
Slothrop...love the new avatar...where's it from?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: adamghost on April 09, 2010, 10:36:04 PM
I want to belatedly chime in in support of Jon and Andrew....

Everyone's got a right to their opinion.  What aggravates me -- and not to get political, but this chaps my hide even more when people express those kinds of beliefs -- is this belief that's really taken hold that one person's opinion is just as good as another, regardless of the expertise or facts that are presented on one side vs. the other.  We've gotten to a point at a society where many people can't critically think -- because critical thinking requires the ability to evaluate one's OWN biases, and accept that while you can never know the truth, that there are some objective standards that help us arrive at something close to the truth -- so, in other words, while every person has right to their opinion, one person's opinion ISN'T as good as another.  E.g. if Person X has first-hand knowledge of an event and says "X happened" and Person Y has third-hand knowledge and says "I don't believe it," Person Y isn't necessarily wrong, but the weight of their opinions AREN'T equal, or shouldn't be.  Another example:  Person X and Person Y both have biases, but if person X admits the biases and accounts for them in his/her argument, and person Y ignores them, again, Person X's opinion should carry more weight in an apples-to-apples comparison.

It amazes me how hard a concept this is these days and when I see it in action, whether it's on Facebook, Fox News or a Beach Boys message board, I find it extremely aggravating.  Some people are more credible than others, and there IS an objective way to evaluate this.  As a society, I feel like we've lost that ability...many reasons for this, including the culture of the individual and the devaluing of science.  But I see it show up all the time in the way people argue points.  People think just believing something really hard is the same as mustering a valid argument.  It isn't.  Or at least it shouldn't be.

Stepping off soapbox now...


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jason on April 09, 2010, 10:52:24 PM
I want to belatedly chime in in support of Jon and Andrew....

Everyone's got a right to their opinion.  What aggravates me -- and not to get political, but this chaps my hide even more when people express those kinds of beliefs -- is this belief that's really taken hold that one person's opinion is just as good as another, regardless of the expertise or facts that are presented on one side vs. the other.  We've gotten to a point at a society where many people can't critically think -- because critical thinking requires the ability to evaluate one's OWN biases, and accept that while you can never know the truth, that there are some objective standards that help us arrive at something close to the truth -- so, in other words, while every person has right to their opinion, one person's opinion ISN'T as good as another.  E.g. if Person X has first-hand knowledge of an event and says "X happened" and Person Y has third-hand knowledge and says "I don't believe it," Person Y isn't necessarily wrong, but the weight of their opinions AREN'T equal, or shouldn't be.  Another example:  Person X and Person Y both have biases, but if person X admits the biases and accounts for them in his/her argument, and person Y ignores them, again, Person X's opinion should carry more weight in an apples-to-apples comparison.

It amazes me how hard a concept this is these days and when I see it in action, whether it's on Facebook, Fox News or a Beach Boys message board, I find it extremely aggravating.  Some people are more credible than others, and there IS an objective way to evaluate this.  As a society, I feel like we've lost that ability...many reasons for this, including the culture of the individual and the devaluing of science.  But I see it show up all the time in the way people argue points.  People think just believing something really hard is the same as mustering a valid argument.  It isn't.  Or at least it shouldn't be.

Stepping off soapbox now...

I've said the same thing on here for ages, man. I've said it in every single THREAD that's popped up on here. And the ones who disagree with the THREAD are the ones who inevitably compare Michael Love to Hitler because they have no other way to win their argument.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 09, 2010, 11:11:17 PM
Slothrop...love the new avatar...where's it from?

Brian during the Spring sessions.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Wirestone on April 09, 2010, 11:37:51 PM
Well, mentioning Hitler will certainly promote a lot of reasoned discussion and critical thinking.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jason on April 09, 2010, 11:55:33 PM
Well, mentioning Hitler will certainly promote a lot of reasoned discussion and critical thinking.

In the Beach Boys world, "reasoned discussion" and "critical thinking" are oxymorons.  :lol


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on April 10, 2010, 01:09:43 AM
Here's a thought that's bound to be controversial, and cause many fights. What if Brian's "autobiography" was truthful in the sole fact that Brian WAS physically scared of Mike? Brian wasn't well by 1975, and things got worse by 1977. Maybe Brian's irrational brain(at the time) told him to side with Mike for sheer physical wellbeing and safety?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on April 10, 2010, 08:45:51 AM
Here's a thought that's bound to be controversial, and cause many fights. What if Brian's "autobiography" was truthful in the sole fact that Brian WAS physically scared of Mike? Brian wasn't well by 1975, and things got worse by 1977. Maybe Brian's irrational brain(at the time) told him to side with Mike for sheer physical wellbeing and safety?

Maybe it was more a case of Mike constantly nagging & badgering Brian, so he decided to make it easy and just give Mike his vote to keep the peace.  I think Brian was very "non-confrontational" by then, and I don't mean just regarding physical confrontations.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Cam Mott on April 10, 2010, 09:49:29 AM
Unless someone knows different, if Brian gave his proxy to Mike maybe it was the simple fact that Brian agreed with Mike or trusted Mike's judgement at least over the other member's of the band's judgement because he could have given his proxy to virtually anyone.

We never seem to consider the most obvious answers in BBfanland.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Mike's Beard on April 11, 2010, 04:40:32 AM
Can anybody elaborate on the whole "tarmac incident" please? I will recount from memory from what I've read in the past but would like anyone in the know to clarify fact from urban myth. Apparently by '77 the group were travelling in two separate planes due to a major difference in livestyle choices. "Airforce TM" and "The Herion Express" if you will.  Initially Brian travelled with Mike and Al by choice but as the year progressed and he fell back into old bad habits (and possibly some new ones) he wanted to fly with his partying brothers. Mike and management kept them apart between shows much to the Wilson trio's increasingly chargrin.  The final straw came when Brian was forbid to board his brothers plane as they stopped for refueling or something, on his birthday I believe? Then, as the saying goes WW3 broke out on the runway between the Wilson's, Love's, Al, Brian's handlers and God knows who else. How much of this true? Does anyone have any first hand account antedotes of what was said to whom? Did Dennis punch out anybody?
Thanks for any insight shared.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Andrew G. Doe on April 11, 2010, 05:11:22 AM
Can anybody elaborate on the whole "tarmac incident" please? I will recount from memory from what I've read in the past but would like anyone in the know to clarify fact from urban myth. Apparently by '77 the group were travelling in two separate planes due to a major difference in livestyle choices. "Airforce TM" and "The Herion Express" if you will.  Initially Brian travelled with Mike and Al by choice but as the year progressed and he fell back into old bad habits (and possibly some new ones) he wanted to fly with his partying brothers. Mike and management kept them apart between shows much to the Wilson trio's increasingly chargrin.  The final straw came when Brian was forbid to board his brothers plane as they stopped for refueling or something, on his birthday I believe? Then, as the saying goes WW3 broke out on the runway between the Wilson's, Love's, Al, Brian's handlers and God knows who else. How much of this true? Does anyone have any first hand account antedotes of what was said to whom? Did Dennis punch out anybody?
Thanks for any insight shared.

It's reported in a fall 1977 issue of Rolling Stone - the bust-up took place on Alan's birthday.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Mike's Beard on April 11, 2010, 05:25:59 AM
Going back to Jon Stebbins mentioning recordings of Dennis's solo tour rehearsals : On a scale of 1 to 10 Jon (or anybody else) what is the likelihood of these ever seeing an official release of sorts? Just the thought of hearing "The River Song" live alone has me drooling.



Title: Wow! Nastiness on the "Mike 1984 Dennis thread"?
Post by: kirkmc- banned on the run on April 13, 2010, 11:30:52 PM
Attack ideas not people, nes pas? Why people "in the know" would ever bother posting to those who simply don't want to know the truth, is beyond me.
Peole like Stebbins deserve a medal, or something. And those POB rehersal tapes just gotta see the light of day...May the Love's & Johnston's of the world happily lick themselves raw til they drop-with gentleness and respect of course...and may POB rehersals and the Smile sessions box bring forth the light of truth-)...MAn how different history would be.

Signed,
Curmudgeon
Surfin' USA 2010


Title: Re: Wow! Nastiness on the \
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on April 14, 2010, 12:00:22 AM
Well, this of course goes more than one way!

Please remember this is a FAN MESSAGE BOARD!!!!!

Us nerds will gather here and argue and discuss The Beach Boys no matter how many experts step up to the podium and "prove" our insane delusions wrong! Insane delusions are a part of rock n roll that is here to stay! Live with it!

Yes, we're discussing real people and events here, but its the music that really matters and music is not concrete! Music is about ideas and emotions, not merely facts. Music opens up our imaginations and we create wonderfully crazed realities within the music! Let this be!!! I mean, c'mon, in my sick head, I'm the 4th (and criminally underrated) Wilson brother!!!!

By the way, when did online-nerd band worship become the "professional fans" versus the "amateurs"?

Btw, don't the "experts" have their own threads where we know to go to them for stone cold facts and to avoid mad fanboy ramblings? ..... And isn't that really kind of a nice set-up actually?

I mean, we're all just a bunch of fans gathered here on an virtual living room floor with a turntable and a pile of records to spin/discuss/argue over/live within ....... And isn't that kind of the point?



Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jay on April 14, 2010, 02:12:19 AM
I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.
It is my firm believe that Bambu is one of the greatest albums of all time. I truely believe that had it been officially released, it would have been a HUGE success, given that Constant Companion had been released as the single/song to push it. I listen to that album, and I'm still stunned beyond belief. It has everything that makes music what it is. From the brass and guitar and all around funkiness of Constant Companion, to the heartbreaking raw emotion of It's Not To Late, to the gritty, nasty sweaty sex appeal of Wild Situation, this album has it all. When you listen to Dennis's raw, broken voice singing the lyrics of It's Not To Late....it isn't just soulful music. It's almost hearing the working of the raw, naked human soul itself. That Dennis's solo career was not allowed to continue is one of the gravest injustices in music history.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: BillA on April 14, 2010, 07:32:10 AM
I listened to the multi-tracks of the POB tour rehearsals on Saturday. John Hanlon and I took a little time to evaluate them, not because there is a big project brewing, but because we wanted to learn a little more, gain a little more perspective. Building projects, knowledge, consensus etc... is a slow process. I've heard the rehearsals before, but today they are very fresh in my mind. Does anyone here want to know what i think about them or what I gleaned? I'm sure some of you do. Maybe some of you don't give a rats ass because you know my love for Dennis' music will override any hope of true objectivity. For those who want to know i can report that Dennis was on top of his game, he sounded like he was ready...the band was absolutely crackling with an energy not heard in BB's concerts in late '77. The material gave them an opportunity to stretch out, get funky, rock harder, big soulful brass section, great guitar solos... they played with more hot passion than they could project in late '77 BB's sets. Dennis was loose and happy, and singing quite a bit here and there, clearly in charge. I think he wanted this. I think if he'd pulled off 10 or 15 successful dates that POB would have sold even more, and that Bambu would have happened in '78. IMO there were elements in the band and their management who were not supportive of this trend, and would prefer that Dennis remain 'the surfer drummer guy who sings one song'. If you think that POB is better than the BB's stuff at that time, then you probably would have thought this tour was better than the BB's tours at the time. It was a similar reach into a more musically progressive place.
It is my firm believe that Bambu is one of the greatest albums of all time. I truely believe that had it been officially released, it would have been a HUGE success, given that Constant Companion had been released as the single/song to push it. I listen to that album, and I'm still stunned beyond belief. It has everything that makes music what it is. From the brass and guitar and all around funkiness of Constant Companion, to the heartbreaking raw emotion of It's Not To Late, to the gritty, nasty sweaty sex appeal of Wild Situation, this album has it all. When you listen to Dennis's raw, broken voice singing the lyrics of It's Not To Late....it isn't just soulful music. It's almost hearing the working of the raw, naked human soul itself. That Dennis's solo career was not allowed to continue is one of the gravest injustices in music history.


How much of it was Dennis "not being allowed to continue" and Dennis not allowing himself top continue?

As a read various posts , etc. I am coming to the conclusion that the saga of Dennis' solo career is almost like SMiLE - Was their group resistance? - yes.  Were Dennis'/Brian's demons sabotaging their projects as well? - yes.

Dennis was a lot of things and one of those things was a complete lack of discipline.  If Dennis had more self discipline (not just with drugs  but also with the process of making music itself) I can't help but think that Bambu would have come out


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Jon Stebbins on April 14, 2010, 09:19:29 AM
To Mike's Beard...POB Tour Rehearsals in some edited form have a chance to see the light of day, not a great one, but a chance, maybe a 3 or 4 on the 10 scale. Several years ago it would have been a 1 or a 2...so chances are improving.

To Kirkmc...Thanks for the support, my wife deserves the medal.

To Erik H...I never asked for my own thread. I'm just a fan/nerd too...here on an virtual living room floor with a turntable and a pile of records to spin/discuss/argue over/live within...pass the gucamole and give me another corona.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: oldsurferdude on April 14, 2010, 05:01:47 PM
Here's a thought that's bound to be controversial, and cause many fights. What if Brian's "autobiography" was truthful in the sole fact that Brian WAS physically scared of Mike? Brian wasn't well by 1975, and things got worse by 1977. Maybe Brian's irrational brain(at the time) told him to side with Mike for sheer physical wellbeing and safety?
I've heard stories of Dennis, Carl and even Brian getting "roughed up" by various members of the notorious Love brothers. Did the lovester ever have his face punched in by anyone. With his 'tude, there must have been a line. :p


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on April 14, 2010, 09:02:19 PM
Here's a thought that's bound to be controversial, and cause many fights. What if Brian's "autobiography" was truthful in the sole fact that Brian WAS physically scared of Mike? Brian wasn't well by 1975, and things got worse by 1977. Maybe Brian's irrational brain(at the time) told him to side with Mike for sheer physical wellbeing and safety?
I've heard stories of Dennis, Carl and even Brian getting "roughed up" by various members of the notorious Love brothers. Did the lovester ever have his face punched in by anyone. With his 'tude, there must have been a line. :p

There were times when Mike was at odds with his bros...I seem to recall he filed charges against Stan (including false imprisonment), and The Beach Boys as a group sued Steve.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on April 15, 2010, 11:07:47 PM
I agree that Bambu is one of the greatest albums of all-time!

To me, its sits up there with Big Star 3rd and Helen Of Troy by John Cale as far as expressive tortured emotion is concerned mixed with exotic melodies, arrangements, high psychodrama, and some good ole rock n roll!

Speaking of deserving medals, John: you and everyone else involved with Bambu's resurrection did an incredible job! Not only in simply making it available, but in the mastering and, above all, the sequencing! I've had raggedy Bambu boots laying around for years and was hardly impressed, but you guys turned it into AN ALBUM!!!!

For my money, Bambu is almost violent proof of what a major contender Dennis could have been! This album is even farther away from The Beach Boys than POB, but even more progressive (not as in prog rock) and forward thinking and genre busting!

Dennis also sounds really strong vocally! People talk about how damaged his voice was at this point, but it hardly matters. He uses his instrument to and beyond it's capabilities and really goes for it in the best ways possible!

I have this nagging image in my head of Dennis playing Constant Companion on American Bandstand! It's such a real image that I can hardly believe it isn't real.... Then again, had it been real, things might have turned out oh so differently  :'(


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Steve Mayo on April 16, 2010, 08:30:48 AM
Signed,
Curmudgeon
Surfin' USA 2010


you crunch seti@home by chance?


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again on April 16, 2010, 10:47:33 PM
No, but someone might have slipped something in my corona


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: kirkmc- banned on the run on April 17, 2010, 02:41:09 AM
No my real name is Kirk Mc. Someone called me curmudgeon-in fun I think...I like it! Cheers.
How can I change it to my log in name? Hee.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: YoungInMind on October 12, 2015, 02:51:06 PM
There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.


Love's words would be a lot more credible if he didn't spin his comments like this one. The fundamental conflict between Mike and Dennis was NOT based in that one reckless act by Dennis(ie giving cocaine to Brian), That is just an inflammatory statement, it is completely ridiculous to make it in relation to the context of Dennis' death...and conveniently a dead Dennis can't answer it or confront Mike for saying it. One thing Mike knows well, despite all the flaws in his person, Dennis fought his own fights. Statements like the one above give the impression that Mike waits until its safe to fight his.
You're right in my opinion.  Also, from the beginning of The Beach Boys, Love was jealous of Dennis because the girls and women that liked Dennis and it took away from some of the attention Mike Love received.  That's how it all began but he leaves that part out of course.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: c-man on October 12, 2015, 08:08:48 PM
There's no question that the relationship between Love and Dennis Wilson as stressful.  "There was definitely conflict," Love said.  "The conflict was, 'Hey, Dennis, perhaps you shouldn't give cocaine to Brian.'  Yeah, he did that a couple of times.  And so to protect Brian, my brother Stan formed a two-man vigilante committee and proceeded to beat Dennis to a pulp.  My brother's about 6-foot-8, 6-foot-9, a professional basketball payer.  And unfortunately, they had a slight altercation..." Love laughed.


Love's words would be a lot more credible if he didn't spin his comments like this one. The fundamental conflict between Mike and Dennis was NOT based in that one reckless act by Dennis(ie giving cocaine to Brian), That is just an inflammatory statement, it is completely ridiculous to make it in relation to the context of Dennis' death...and conveniently a dead Dennis can't answer it or confront Mike for saying it. One thing Mike knows well, despite all the flaws in his person, Dennis fought his own fights. Statements like the one above give the impression that Mike waits until its safe to fight his.
You're right in my opinion.  Also, from the beginning of The Beach Boys, Love was jealous of Dennis because the girls and women that liked Dennis and it took away from some of the attention Mike Love received.  That's how it all began but he leaves that part out of course.

To be fair to Mike, he was quoted in 2007 as saying "Tell you what, in the early days, when we were playing concerts, there was NO ONE the girls liked more, IN rock 'n' roll, PERIOD.  That's it." He was talking about Dennis there, not himself. ;)


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: adamghost on October 14, 2015, 03:11:09 PM
I was just musing to myself reading this old thread (and amused by my own five-year-old brief contribution to it) what would happen to any of us, and how we would be viewed, if we had a gaggle of people poring over minutiae of the last 50 years of our lives, subconsciously looking for the best or worst in us...add a healthy dose of toxic surroundings (dysfunctional family, the music industry, the unreality of fame, etc.) to that, and see how well any of us with our own fears and insecurities would do under that level of scrutiny.

Dennis and Mike were/are deeply talented/deeply flawed individuals, each with character traits many of us can identify with or against.  Besides the music and the mayhem, it's less sexy to also contemplate that they both also gave a lot of time to charity and people and causes that they care(d) deeply about.  That might be a good thing for us all to reflect on in how we can all do better with our own flawed lives.  That's where my thoughts lie today.


Title: Re: From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis
Post by: Steve Latshaw on October 14, 2015, 03:40:36 PM
Excellent post, Adam.  What I remember very well from the 1970s, as a fan, was Dennis' dedication to Special Olympics.