From 1984: Mike Talks About Dennis

[Andrew G. Doe]

So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.

[MBE]

Jon: I for one like your insight and don't mind being corrected if I have a theory that's not 100 percent on target. What you had to say was very much appreciated.

Ed: I enjoy reading anything you have to say regarding Dennis. Thank you for being here.

[c-man]

So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.

Actually, Landy was fired at the end of '76.

[Cam Mott]

Excellent work as always Craig-man.

[Andrew G. Doe]

So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.

Actually, Landy was fired at the end of '76.

That he was. Mea culpa.

But the rest is pretty spot on, no ? 

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I really don't understand the fury directed at Sheriff Jonn Stone!

How come it is ok to gloss over anything Dennis might have done wrong (as in, statutory rapes, repeated cheatings, punching out Mike, etc.....) and then jump all over someone who defends a simple 26 year old quote from Mike?

All Mike did was mention that Dennis was attacked for supplying drugs to Brian. He didn't say it was right and all he did was chuckle at the fact that Stan was 6'8 or 6'9 meaniing it was a lopsided fight!

Both men (Dennis/Mike) cousins/friends/bandmates/sometime enemies did some awful things to others, each other, and themselves. Dennis gave us amazing music and Mike contributed a lot of great stuff too. Just because we "like" one guy better than the other, we shouldn't be so provincial and star-struck-worshipping in our thinking.

[Awesoman]

SJS repeatedly through the years has always followed my assertion that this ultimatum event occurred with, "I don't believe that" or something similar. Then it gets to be bang your head against the wall time. Because even though i know what I know...and even though i have many years of research, access, and inside connection directly to this subject matter, he's not buying it...that and a few other things too.

I have a question for you Jon: Why let it get to you if some random individual on the other side of the Internet doesn't believe what you're saying?  You have nothing to prove here; you've had remarkable experiences with the band and it is very cool that you share them with us in this forum.  If the good Sheriff (or anybody, for that matter) doesn't want to believe what you're saying, let that be his problem...not yours.  Food for thought.

[Jon Stebbins]

SJS repeatedly through the years has always followed my assertion that this ultimatum event occurred with, "I don't believe that" or something similar. Then it gets to be bang your head against the wall time. Because even though i know what I know...and even though i have many years of research, access, and inside connection directly to this subject matter, he's not buying it...that and a few other things too.

I have a question for you Jon: Why let it get to you if some random individual on the other side of the Internet doesn't believe what you're saying?  You have nothing to prove here; you've had remarkable experiences with the band and it is very cool that you share them with us in this forum.  If the good Sheriff (or anybody, for that matter) doesn't want to believe what you're saying, let that be his problem...not yours.  Food for thought.

Letting it get to me is a matter of degrees I guess. I've had some productive exchanges with SJS before, after, and even during the contentious ones. Really, its true. We've had some very cordial moments, those don't stand out to observers I'm sure. Its been a mixed bag. I've tried my best to move past any residual negativity, many times. Problem? Not really. More of a sometimes aggravating challenge. I don't consider SJS a random individual, he's something more like a fixture. One that tends to directly disagree with me a lot of the time, probably more than anyone else I can think of through the ten years I've been participating in these type of forums. Therefore, to me, he stands out. He certainly is nowhere near the most aggressive, disrespectful or threatening person to disagree with me on a message board. I've been kicked around real good by some other people in a manner SJS has never approached. He's just the most prolific and consistent presence who isn't buying what I'm selling much of the time, and IMO at times it really doesn't matter how much evidence or rationale i produce. Again, that's my perspective, and I really try to remind myself its just that, one man's perspective. So, i take a deep breath, regroup, and come back for more... Because these forums are where BB's obsessives, hardcore fans, people like me, who truly love the BB's music, gather. There's bound to be a few that I don't get along with and a few more who think I'm full of it. I may get pissed off for a bit...but I'm not losing any sleep over it, you can be sure of that. I've got a family, a wife, two daughters, two dogs and a cat. They are what my life is really about. But thanks for the food for thought, yours is a valid point.

[Mike's Beard]

I'll put my hand in the air - I never knew the POB tour was pulled due to the group voting against it. I always thought Dennis got cold feet on the idea.  To be honest the big bag of cash from the CBS advance MUST have been the only factor in Dennis's decsion to tolarate this. This is a case of literally taking a dump on a guy's musical dreams due to jealosy. I wish Dennis HAD told them to go to hell and quit to do the solo thang. Carl had the balls to do it a few years down the line but alas he didn't have the tunes to back the gesture up. Denny did.

[Jay]

So if Dennis was forced by the Beach Boys to abort his tour Why was Brian against it?  My assumption is that Carl was supportive since he was in the band so that leaves Brian,  Mike and Al as the no votes.

By the time of the tour rehearsals (late October/early November 1977), the infamous tarmac meltdown had resulted in a meeting at Brian's house at which, reportedly, Mike was given Brian's vote (by Brian), which ensured that with Alan's support Carl & Dennis were permanently outvoted 3-2. Brian wasn't against the tour - I'd be surprised if he ever knew about it - he just couldn't be bothered: also, remember this was the first Landy era.

Reading something like this upsets me in ways I can't even describe. So many things went wrong for The Beach Boys. So, what you are saying is that Dennis and Carl were pretty much outvoted almost before the vote was even made? Theoretically speaking, I mean. The thing with Brian possibly not even knowing of all this make it ten times worse. Sometimes I just want to rip out my hair.     

[Andrew G. Doe]

You have to bear in mind, had Brian not handed his vote to Mike, the outcome could have been so different. Sometimes I wish he'd showed just a little backbone...

[Jay]

I love Brian as much as everybody else here, but sometims his "wimp-ishness" annoys the hell out of me. 

[Jay]

You have to bear in mind, had Brian not handed his vote to Mike, the outcome could have been so different. Sometimes I wish he'd showed just a little backbone...

I wonder if things would have been different if the "tarmac incident" had happened about 10 years earlier. Hell, even three or fours years earlier....

[A Million Units In Jan!]

You have to bear in mind, had Brian not handed his vote to Mike, the outcome could have been so different. Sometimes I wish he'd showed just a little backbone...

Is it a question of whether he had 'backbone', or a question of he just didn't give a sh*t?

[Andrew G. Doe]

OK... but if you're going to give your vote to anyone, surely someone with the same surname would - should - be your first choice ?

[Mike's Beard]

I'm not 100% sure how this works legally but if Brian did not want to participate in corporate meetings shouldn't he have gave his vote to a third party? His wife perhaps? Giving it to a guy who already had a vote makes no sense. Handing it to Mike meant from a technical/legal standpoint there were essentially 2 separate Mike Love's in BRI? And if it would mean supporting his brother in an artistic sense then Brian SHOULD have gave a merda!

[slothrop]

OK... but if you're going to give your vote to anyone, surely someone with the same surname would - should - be your first choice ?

You would imagine so...but isn't there that more contemporary footage of Brian calling Mike "our main guy" along with Carl in Endless Harmony I think. It seems Brian has always had an image of Mike as the lead Beach Boy, even when Carl was doing most of the production, etc. Of course, Brian could feel completely different, but he's always appeared to tout Mike as the "face" of the Beach Boys I suppose.

[c-man]

Slothrop...love the new avatar...where's it from?

[adamghost]

I want to belatedly chime in in support of Jon and Andrew....

Everyone's got a right to their opinion.  What aggravates me -- and not to get political, but this chaps my hide even more when people express those kinds of beliefs -- is this belief that's really taken hold that one person's opinion is just as good as another, regardless of the expertise or facts that are presented on one side vs. the other.  We've gotten to a point at a society where many people can't critically think -- because critical thinking requires the ability to evaluate one's OWN biases, and accept that while you can never know the truth, that there are some objective standards that help us arrive at something close to the truth -- so, in other words, while every person has right to their opinion, one person's opinion ISN'T as good as another.  E.g. if Person X has first-hand knowledge of an event and says "X happened" and Person Y has third-hand knowledge and says "I don't believe it," Person Y isn't necessarily wrong, but the weight of their opinions AREN'T equal, or shouldn't be.  Another example:  Person X and Person Y both have biases, but if person X admits the biases and accounts for them in his/her argument, and person Y ignores them, again, Person X's opinion should carry more weight in an apples-to-apples comparison.

It amazes me how hard a concept this is these days and when I see it in action, whether it's on Facebook, Fox News or a Beach Boys message board, I find it extremely aggravating.  Some people are more credible than others, and there IS an objective way to evaluate this.  As a society, I feel like we've lost that ability...many reasons for this, including the culture of the individual and the devaluing of science.  But I see it show up all the time in the way people argue points.  People think just believing something really hard is the same as mustering a valid argument.  It isn't.  Or at least it shouldn't be.

Stepping off soapbox now...

[Jason]

I want to belatedly chime in in support of Jon and Andrew....

Everyone's got a right to their opinion.  What aggravates me -- and not to get political, but this chaps my hide even more when people express those kinds of beliefs -- is this belief that's really taken hold that one person's opinion is just as good as another, regardless of the expertise or facts that are presented on one side vs. the other.  We've gotten to a point at a society where many people can't critically think -- because critical thinking requires the ability to evaluate one's OWN biases, and accept that while you can never know the truth, that there are some objective standards that help us arrive at something close to the truth -- so, in other words, while every person has right to their opinion, one person's opinion ISN'T as good as another.  E.g. if Person X has first-hand knowledge of an event and says "X happened" and Person Y has third-hand knowledge and says "I don't believe it," Person Y isn't necessarily wrong, but the weight of their opinions AREN'T equal, or shouldn't be.  Another example:  Person X and Person Y both have biases, but if person X admits the biases and accounts for them in his/her argument, and person Y ignores them, again, Person X's opinion should carry more weight in an apples-to-apples comparison.

It amazes me how hard a concept this is these days and when I see it in action, whether it's on Facebook, Fox News or a Beach Boys message board, I find it extremely aggravating.  Some people are more credible than others, and there IS an objective way to evaluate this.  As a society, I feel like we've lost that ability...many reasons for this, including the culture of the individual and the devaluing of science.  But I see it show up all the time in the way people argue points.  People think just believing something really hard is the same as mustering a valid argument.  It isn't.  Or at least it shouldn't be.

Stepping off soapbox now...

I've said the same thing on here for ages, man. I've said it in every single THREAD that's popped up on here. And the ones who disagree with the THREAD are the ones who inevitably compare Michael Love to Hitler because they have no other way to win their argument.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Slothrop...love the new avatar...where's it from?

Brian during the Spring sessions.

[Wirestone]

Well, mentioning Hitler will certainly promote a lot of reasoned discussion and critical thinking.

[Jason]

Well, mentioning Hitler will certainly promote a lot of reasoned discussion and critical thinking.

In the Beach Boys world, "reasoned discussion" and "critical thinking" are oxymorons. 

[Jay]

Here's a thought that's bound to be controversial, and cause many fights. What if Brian's "autobiography" was truthful in the sole fact that Brian WAS physically scared of Mike? Brian wasn't well by 1975, and things got worse by 1977. Maybe Brian's irrational brain(at the time) told him to side with Mike for sheer physical wellbeing and safety?

[c-man]

Here's a thought that's bound to be controversial, and cause many fights. What if Brian's "autobiography" was truthful in the sole fact that Brian WAS physically scared of Mike? Brian wasn't well by 1975, and things got worse by 1977. Maybe Brian's irrational brain(at the time) told him to side with Mike for sheer physical wellbeing and safety?

Maybe it was more a case of Mike constantly nagging & badgering Brian, so he decided to make it easy and just give Mike his vote to keep the peace.  I think Brian was very "non-confrontational" by then, and I don't mean just regarding physical confrontations.