Hey Little Tomboy/MIU Brian

[Jim V.]

Nah, the Brian cover I'm thinking of, as I've already said I think, was from the KTSA sessions.  I probably shouldn't say which, but a gander at Andrew Doe's 1979 sessions page will narrow it down.

Hmm, well by narrowing the '79 sessions, I can only see a few oldies that could've been by Brian. By the process of elimination Da Doo Ron Ron (Carl) and  School Days (Al) are out. So I'm assuming either Jamaica Farewell, Smokey Places, or Johnny B. Goode, although JBG seems like that would be a Mike sung title. I dunno, any more hints??? 

[adamghost]

Nope, I think that's enough.

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than me would have chimed in about the whole post-Brotman chain of events....

[Jim V.]

Yeah anybody wanna help out here?

[Jim V.]

I re-looked this thread up, and I thought it was an interesting discussing, I was wondering if anybody out there could expound on Adam's statements about what happened with Brian post Brotman, and during the whole Light Album period. It seems that we are kinda in the dark on this period, as far as where Brian was, whether he was around for any of the California sessions for the album, etc...

So he flies out to Miami to produce, after that whole chain of events which landed him in the hospital for a bit. Then he has at least one really great day, where he produces a great version of "Calendar Girl." That something totally bums him out, and he calls Bruce up to produce the album.

After the meeting with Yetnikoff, they head back to California, and as far as I can see, the only new Brian songs attempted from this era are "I'm Begging You Please" and an untitled song. They also bring back "Good Timin'" and apparently he is not at the session for the background vocals, so I'm assuming he is out of commission. But where is he? Why wouldn't he be at a session for vocals for one of his best songs in years?

I get the feeling he probably wasn't around all that much for these sessions? From what I can gather, the only work for the album he did in California would seem to background vox on "Angel Come Home" (from what I've heard), an attempted lead vocal for "California Feelin'", some work on "I'm Begging You Please", and probably piano on "Good Timin'" (which likely would have come from '74).

I don't know. Just seems odd the guy would be MIA with this huge contract on the line. Especially when a certain amount of material was supposed to be penned by him or whatever.

[Andrew G. Doe]

I re-looked this thread up, and I thought it was an interesting discussing, I was wondering if anybody out there could expound on Adam's statements about what happened with Brian post Brotman, and during the whole Light Album period. It seems that we are kinda in the dark on this period, as far as where Brian was, whether he was around for any of the California sessions for the album, etc...

So he flies out to Miami to produce, after that whole chain of events which landed him in the hospital for a bit. Then he has at least one really great day, where he produces a great version of "Calendar Girl." That something totally bums him out, and he calls Bruce up to produce the album.

Let me amend this slightly: "he flies out was flown out to Miami to produce". From my understanding, Brian's presence the Criteria sessions wasn't voluntary. I can think of 8,500,000 reasons why.

[lance]

I remember reading, either on this board or surfermoon an account of the LA Brian sessions and Brian's subsequent breakdown. It was written by one of the 'session' members.
As I recall, Brian arrived rip-rearin to go and recorded quite a lot in two days, calling in Bruce to help out with vocals. The musicians were wowed by Brian's methods. After about two or three days, Brian received a call. The story-teller did not know who was calling; he theorized that it was a lawyer who was dealing with Brian and Marilyn's divorce. Whoever it was, after the call, Brian curled up on a sofa in the studio and didn't move--for days.
Bruce took over in an emergency. He didn't understand what Brian was recording(some had been recorded at different speeds than normal, there were parts that hadn't been completed, etc) and apparently wiped most of it.
The person who told the story talked to Dennis who was recording songs for Bambu at the same time in the same place with I assume the same musicians. Dennis' reply was something along the lines of: "There's nothing I can do. Brian always does what Brian wants to do and there is nothing that is ever going to change that."

Divorce is stressful for anyone.

[♩♬🐸 Billy C ♯♫♩🐇]

For some reason, I was under the impression that it was Brian who filed for divorce. :/

[lance]

Maybe. I believe the theory was that it was the lawyer calling.

Anyway, divorce is stressful and depressing no matter who files especially with kids involved not to mention addiction.

Funnily enough, reading the other thread, I think it was Ed Roach himself who wrote the story I've just tried to recall.

[c-man]

Brian also cut the infamous DRIP DROP at the post-Miami California sessions for L.A.  As to why he wasn't more involved...well, quite simply, he was eventually hospitalized again.  This is well documented in Stephen Gaines' "Heroes And Villains" book.  In regards to "Good Timin'", here's what engineer Tom Murphy told me:  "We were hoping Brian would sing the lead on 'Good Timin''.  But time ran out.  So Carl and I did the vocal at Britannia Studio, where we did a lot of the backing vocals for the whole record.  It was bittersweet for me; Carl sang HEAVENLY but we both wished it was Brian".  And the reason time ran out is because Brian was still in the hospital, and the deadline for the album's completion was fast approaching (it had already been delayed numerous times over the course of the previous year or more, and the record company simply was not going to wait any longer).

[Mikie]

Listening to "Drip Drop", it sounds like Brian was very involved! 

[urbanite]

Is Drip Drop any good?

[smile-holland]

Is Drip Drop any good?

I'd rather call it "unique"...

[Jim V.]

Brian also cut the infamous DRIP DROP at the post-Miami California sessions for L.A.  As to why he wasn't more involved...well, quite simply, he was eventually hospitalized again.  This is well documented in Stephen Gaines' "Heroes And Villains" book.  In regards to "Good Timin'", here's what engineer Tom Murphy told me:  "We were hoping Brian would sing the lead on 'Good Timin''.  But time ran out.  So Carl and I did the vocal at Britannia Studio, where we did a lot of the backing vocals for the whole record.  It was bittersweet for me; Carl sang HEAVENLY but we both wished it was Brian".  And the reason time ran out is because Brian was still in the hospital, and the deadline for the album's completion was fast approaching (it had already been delayed numerous times over the course of the previous year or more, and the record company simply was not going to wait any longer).

I was thinking about it, wasn't the lead for "Good Timin'" recorded in '74 actually, along with the most of the track? I wonder how a '78 Brian woulda sounded doing the lead on this song though. Does sound interesting. I wonder if there is a '74 demo with his vocal on it. That too, would be interesting.

But anyways, so I guess my question was answered about his lack of participation, he was probably not around for many sessions. I forgot that he indeed went back to the hospital in the fall of '78 until early '79. Just re-read that section of the Gaines book. How sad. And I guess I can see why the did what they did with the Light Album. Makes sense that he wasn't as involved. You'd think that Warners would rather wait to have an album featuring a bit more Brian, rather than just putting anything out there. However, the only thing they probably could have improved the album with, Brian-wise, was probably adding "California Feelin'". Don't know if there was much else he had around at the time that was really that high in quality. "I'm Begging You Please" was pretty rough, but maybe coulda be something decent. Overall, I think the album was quite strong for a latter day BB effort.

[bgas]

Brian also cut the infamous DRIP DROP at the post-Miami California sessions for L.A.  As to why he wasn't more involved...well, quite simply, he was eventually hospitalized again.  This is well documented in Stephen Gaines' "Heroes And Villains" book.  In regards to "Good Timin'", here's what engineer Tom Murphy told me:  "We were hoping Brian would sing the lead on 'Good Timin''.  But time ran out.  So Carl and I did the vocal at Britannia Studio, where we did a lot of the backing vocals for the whole record.  It was bittersweet for me; Carl sang HEAVENLY but we both wished it was Brian".  And the reason time ran out is because Brian was still in the hospital, and the deadline for the album's completion was fast approaching (it had already been delayed numerous times over the course of the previous year or more, and the record company simply was not going to wait any longer).

I was thinking about it, wasn't the lead for "Good Timin'" recorded in '74 actually, along with the most of the track? I wonder how a '78 Brian woulda sounded doing the lead on this song though. Does sound interesting. I wonder if there is a '74 demo with his vocal on it. That too, would be interesting.

But anyways, so I guess my question was answered about his lack of participation, he was probably not around for many sessions. I forgot that he indeed went back to the hospital in the fall of '78 until early '79. Just re-read that section of the Gaines book. How sad. And I guess I can see why the did what they did with the Light Album. Makes sense that he wasn't as involved. You'd think that Warners would rather wait to have an album featuring a bit more Brian, rather than just putting anything out there. However, the only thing they probably could have improved the album with, Brian-wise, was probably adding "California Feelin'". Don't know if there was much else he had around at the time that was really that high in quality. "I'm Begging You Please" was pretty rough, but maybe coulda be something decent. Overall, I think the album was quite strong for a latter day BB effort.

Except( small typo) it wasn't Warners....

[Jim V.]

D'oh. I mixed that up with CBS.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I tend to go VERY easy on Brian around this period. He sang like an angel for a few great years, but upon inspection it's clear he didn't exactly possess the vocal "instrument" that Carl or Al or even Mike were able to develop from singing on Brian's recordings and then as professional live singers. Brian sounded great in the early days but he was pretty much always double tracked, and though his vocal character was amazing is wasn't necessarily powerful. Brian was learning to sing in the studio as much as he was pioneering. And he really didn't have the chance to ever develop as a singer. His glory days were over almost before they had begun and Carl pretty much took over for him vocally and developed and grew from where Brian left off.

Where the other Beach Boys are concerned: singing live a billion and a half dates a year: by the time Brian was dragged out of bed and into the studio for 15 Big Ones, how was he not supposed to sound inferior next to his professional singer band -mates? And that's without all the smoking/coke/lack of exercise and mental problems.

I'd say that after 15 Big Ones and Love You, Brian might have had is sea legs back a bit, so when MIU rolls around, and someone else is riding him in the studio, he's able to kick himself into a higher gear and bang out some good vocals, if only so he can get the hell out of there: still with some studio tricks and some Al doubling..... Then by the time of LA, he's in a different place and fresh out of the mental hospital (where he probably wasn't getting much singing done)..... it makes perfect sense.  A singer needs to always practice and keep the pipes in good condition. If you don't use it, you lose it.

[adamghost]

Erik, I think you make a really good point here.  It's easy to overrate Brian's early vocals -- if you listen to, for instance, the "Don't Worry Baby" outtake from the '64 IN CONCERT, you could hear that even in his prime Brian could be erratic and pitchy.  I'd argue he was only truly awesome as a vocalist from around '64-'67, and the PET SOUNDS outtakes revealed how much trickery was involved in some of the vocal work there (e.g. the intro to "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times.").

And yeah, it's a GREAT point that if you're not singing all the time, you lose it fast.  Vocal chords are muscles...they atrophy without use.  That could well be the answer to the M.I.U. vs. L.A. question...M.I.U. was after two years of singing live and in the studio, whereas L.A. was after X months at Brotman.  It makes sense to me.

Btw, we missed you Saturday!

[Sam_BFC]

I'd argue he was only truly awesome as a vocalist from around '64-'67, and the PET SOUNDS outtakes revealed how much trickery was involved in some of the vocal work there (e.g. the intro to "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times.").

To what are you specifically referring to Adam?

Cheers

[Fall Breaks]

I'd argue he was only truly awesome as a vocalist from around '64-'67

Just curious: why don't you include '63 as well? I mean, '62 he wasn't great yet (example: Cuckoo Clock), but '63 had such numbers as Hawaii, No-Go Showboat, Farmer's Daughter and Spirit of America.

[busy doin nothin]

Oh darn it. That takes away something from that song, doesn't it?

Why ? Exactly the same harp as it was yesterday, before you knew this. That's a very Bloo-ish response - "oh, not Brian so it can't be as good". 

Because I experience different things listening to a harp (I assume is) played by Brian Wilson than what I do listening to a harp played by a studio musician whom I haven't read dozens of books about, haven't met and don't even know how he looks. Also, I thought I heard Brian play a great harmonica line, which impressed me since the only (?) time I had heard him play harmonica before was "Susie Cincinnati" which is a much simpler part. Thirdly, I enjoyed hearing a prominent Brian Wilson performance (as in lead vocal and/or easily audible instrument) from an album that he isn't that present, or at least prominently audible, on. Fourthly, if that's a word, that harmonica line sounds so free and so full of life that I sometimes could get genuinely moved hearing it, wondering how Brian could kick in such a performance at that troubled time of his life.

That's why. The harp line is just as good as it was yesterday. It just affects me differently.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board.  I have always been attached to the idea that Brian was the harmonica player on SAW -- and my feelings on learning that it is not true are exactly the same as yours, Fall Breaks.  Thank you.

Also, I would add that it was AGD who stated at least twice on this board (and in his book) that the harmonica was Brian.  Andrew, you now seem to accept that it was not Brian.  Why the change?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Oh darn it. That takes away something from that song, doesn't it?

Why ? Exactly the same harp as it was yesterday, before you knew this. That's a very Bloo-ish response - "oh, not Brian so it can't be as good".  

Because I experience different things listening to a harp (I assume is) played by Brian Wilson than what I do listening to a harp played by a studio musician whom I haven't read dozens of books about, haven't met and don't even know how he looks. Also, I thought I heard Brian play a great harmonica line, which impressed me since the only (?) time I had heard him play harmonica before was "Susie Cincinnati" which is a much simpler part. Thirdly, I enjoyed hearing a prominent Brian Wilson performance (as in lead vocal and/or easily audible instrument) from an album that he isn't that present, or at least prominently audible, on. Fourthly, if that's a word, that harmonica line sounds so free and so full of life that I sometimes could get genuinely moved hearing it, wondering how Brian could kick in such a performance at that troubled time of his life.

That's why. The harp line is just as good as it was yesterday. It just affects me differently.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board.  I have always been attached to the idea that Brian was the harmonica player on SAW -- and my feelings on learning that it is not true are exactly the same as yours, Fall Breaks.  Thank you.

Also, I would add that it was AGD who stated at least twice on this board (and in his book) that the harmonica was Brian.  Andrew, you now seem to accept that it was not Brian.  Why the change?

Because, like all good researchers should, when I was presented with conflicting information that also had convincing documentation, I put my hand up and said "sorry, wrong". The original claim that it was Brian originated with one Brad Elliott, and like a lot of folk back then, I took his word for it (and a lot of other stuff).  Then someone whom I trust implicity gave me info from an AFM sheet which contradicted the prevailing belief.  I know I'm not the easiest guy sometimes, but neither am I so arrogant and egotistical as to be incapable of admitting my error.  Again, that's what being a good researcher is all about - a willingness to accept new info even when (especially when) it goes against what you've been saying. The truth, and accuracy, are more important than my ego.

Just. 

[busy doin nothin]

Oh darn it. That takes away something from that song, doesn't it?

Why ? Exactly the same harp as it was yesterday, before you knew this. That's a very Bloo-ish response - "oh, not Brian so it can't be as good".  

Because I experience different things listening to a harp (I assume is) played by Brian Wilson than what I do listening to a harp played by a studio musician whom I haven't read dozens of books about, haven't met and don't even know how he looks. Also, I thought I heard Brian play a great harmonica line, which impressed me since the only (?) time I had heard him play harmonica before was "Susie Cincinnati" which is a much simpler part. Thirdly, I enjoyed hearing a prominent Brian Wilson performance (as in lead vocal and/or easily audible instrument) from an album that he isn't that present, or at least prominently audible, on. Fourthly, if that's a word, that harmonica line sounds so free and so full of life that I sometimes could get genuinely moved hearing it, wondering how Brian could kick in such a performance at that troubled time of his life.

That's why. The harp line is just as good as it was yesterday. It just affects me differently.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board.  I have always been attached to the idea that Brian was the harmonica player on SAW -- and my feelings on learning that it is not true are exactly the same as yours, Fall Breaks.  Thank you.

Also, I would add that it was AGD who stated at least twice on this board (and in his book) that the harmonica was Brian.  Andrew, you now seem to accept that it was not Brian.  Why the change?

Because, like all good researchers should, when I was presented with conflicting information that also had convincing documentation, I put my hand up and said "sorry, wrong". The original claim that it was Brian originated with one Brad Elliott, and like a lot of folk back then, I took his word for it (and a lot of other stuff).  Then someone whom I trust implicity gave me info from an AFM sheet which contradicted the prevailing belief.  I know I'm not the easiest guy sometimes, but neither am I so arrogant and egotistical as to be incapable of admitting my error.  Again, that's what being a good researcher is all about - a willingness to accept new info even when (especially when) it goes against what you've been saying. The truth, and accuracy, are more important than my ego.

Just. 

Andrew -- thanks for the response.  Your research and attention to detail are much appreciated, as is your sharing of your knowledge here.   Too bad about Brian and that harmonica, though.  Boy did I love the idea of him wailing on that thing!

[adamghost]

Because, like all good researchers should, when I was presented with conflicting information that also had convincing documentation, I put my hand up and said "sorry, wrong". The original claim that it was Brian originated with one Brad Elliott, and like a lot of folk back then, I took his word for it (and a lot of other stuff).  Then someone whom I trust implicity gave me info from an AFM sheet which contradicted the prevailing belief.  I know I'm not the easiest guy sometimes, but neither am I so arrogant and egotistical as to be incapable of admitting my error.  Again, that's what being a good researcher is all about - a willingness to accept new info even when (especially when) it goes against what you've been saying. The truth, and accuracy, are more important than my ego.

Just.  

And THIS is one of my favorite posts on the board.  The idea that you stick to your guns until proven wrong, but when proven wrong, admit it.  It's not that hard of a concept!

[adamghost]

I'd argue he was only truly awesome as a vocalist from around '64-'67, and the PET SOUNDS outtakes revealed how much trickery was involved in some of the vocal work there (e.g. the intro to "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times.").

To what are you specifically referring to Adam?

Cheers

I was specifically referring to another song!!!  LOL.  I should have said "You Still Believe In Me."  I was PWI (Posting While Impaired).

I remember laboring very hard to be able to sing that whole falsetto/theremin line that opens the song in one go (got a very funny story involving Matthew Sweet that revolves around this), and having been able to just get it, being bummed to hear the many breath noises on the isolated vocal track that revealed Brian had comped the whole part.

As to why '64 and not '63 for Brian's mature vocal period...YMMV.  I did use "awesome" as opposed to "very good."  To me there's a difference between the sensitivity of the vocal on "Please Let Me Wonder" as opposed to just the energy of a "Farmer's Daughter."  "The Lonely Sea" might be a better apples to apples comparison...it's very moving but there's another level of skill and sophistication to the singing that you hear on the TODAY tracks.  But I admit it's kind of an arbitrary distinction.

You can make a modern-day comparison in that I have been put off by Brian's modern-day vocals for years, but I've been VERY impressed by his vocal work on the last few albums.  That thing that people have been saying for a long time, about his older voice conveying a sense of wear and emotion, I didn't buy before but I am buying now.  The thing is, his basic instrument is just as messed up as it's ever been, but I think just the years of singing onstage and having the ongoing vocal coaching have paid off in knowing how to use it better.

The voice is a funny thing...you can't constantly thrash it or you wind up like Elton John, but you can't baby it, either.  A certain amount of stress is good for the voice; it's kind of like a workout, you want to push it just far enough to grow, but not enough to damage.  And I've messed up my voice way worse doing hours of soft background vocals than I ever did tearing my throat out singing punk rock. 

As I said, I think Erik may be spot on.

[Pinder's Gone To Kokomo And Back Again]

I think it also comes down to just the type of voice one has.... Carl, for instance, really didn't have to push himself to get there as Brian might have had to/still does. I could be completely wrong, but Carl seemed to sing with his basic speaking voice whereas Brian went up into this other realm which isn't easy. I'm very impressed by what Brian can still do and has done since he's been out there kicking ass with his band. In the early days Brian pushed himself to sing like he did and that sort of discipline needs to be maintained and developed otherwise at some point you're just pushing rather than getting somewhere. Especially when you no longer have the voice of a 20 year old. I love when Brian sang/sings in a more natural relaxed register. Listen to Please Let Me Wonder then listen to I'd Love Just Once To See You. Those songs are years apart but he sounds just as good on both. Brian has a lovely natural tone when just singing and not pushing. The voice is a fragile instrument. Elton could maybe repair his voice, but maybe it's too far gone.... Look at Brian Johnson! He blew his voice to merda in just about 4 years (80-84) but somehow recently got it back to working order at like 60 something years old. It's possible.
 
Adam, it was a drag to not to be able to make it Saturday. I'll be at your Elton show for sure! Mark my words.