The Smiley Smile Message Board

So onto a VERY important topic, "Hey Little Tomboy".

Anyways on two places on Wikipedia, it says something about it being composed in 1974. I'm like 98 percent positive that isn't true, but whoever put that, did it twice, and must have some reasoning. Anybody got any info?

Also, what the hell was up with Brian's voice during MIU? Or basically just "Wontcha Come Out Tonight" and "Match Point of Our Love". How did he sound so smooth? Is there any real info on that?

Two reasons Brian sounded smoother would probably be denial of access to cigarettes and very canny mixing (compare the MIU and CHRISTMAS mixes).

Really ? Losing the cigs did that for him? Shoot.

Didn't landy make him quit again in 82? cuz i can't say his voice really sounded that much better by BB85 or BW88 though. i mean he sounded pretty good on Imagination and Smile but yeah, he still didn't have that same smoothness.

As far as the mixing, i'm sure they used some trickery, but at that time, there was only so much they could do to make him sound good. The technology just wasnt there. So its still quite an achievement that he sounded like that, especially after hearing something like "Back Home" or "Love is a Woman".

True, but if you listen close, his vocals aren't quite as good as they seem on first blush.  And you could do a lot in the '70s to cover things up, multiple punches, triple tracking, all manner of reverb.  The only voice technology we have now that wasn't available in some form in the late '70s was pitch correction...one big difference was that Brian wasn't at the helm for M.I.U. so there was probably a more concerted effort to get better vocals out of Brian, and to get them to fly in the mix, than for LOVE YOU and 15 BIG ONES.  I've heard the outtakes of Brian's leads for LIGHT ALBUM and KTSA and they are almost uniformly ass, so whatever he got back for MIU was transitory.

Yeah but right after MIU he was back to the same old Brian.

As far as the second Landy era...notice how he got a somewhat stronger falsetto back for a while. Then, in 1991, he began smoking again. He quit in 1994, but the damage had already been done. Compare his vocals on the *original" Rainbow Eyes, or "Someone to Love" to anything from OCA. He lost all power behind his voice.

I mean its obvious (to me at least) that his voice on those two MIU tracks was still closer to 15BO and LY than the stuff before. And he still sounded like balls on "Hey Little Tomboy". Which was ok on Love You because the songs were good. And that falsetto on "She's Got Rhythm" is just...yuck. But yeah, I know all about punching in, reverb, and all that, and it can't actually change your voice. I'm not arguing, but I'm just saying you can only make somebody sound so good. And after hearing Brian on those albums or after on the LA demos and KTSA, you wouldn't think its the same guy. It somewhat leads you back to that conclusion that maybe it was all a game on his part; although honestly I don't think it is.

Another thing to consider is that on Matchpoint, Brian's vocal attack is softer. It seems that when he'd really go for it on a vocal back then, the phlegm and croaking started coming out, along with a loss of control. Also, smoking really diminishes your lung capacity, so if Brian quit smoking temporarily during the MIU timeframe, that definitely would've helped.

But I suspect that maybe Brian really was deliberately pushing his voice back then to the point where it was difficult to control - maybe a passive-aggressive reaction to the "Brian's Back" campaign and being forced to tour.  At times during that era (e.g., parts of Love You, the Mike Douglas show), it sounded like Brian had forgotten good phrasing and vocal attack techniques. But when you listen to some of the Love You demos, parts of A/C, or even the Cocaine Sessions, you hear Brian's deeper voice, but it's much more controlled and clear.

This brings me to another question, how exactly did he "forget" his phrasing and vocal attack techniques? Because I mean, you can just tell by listening to something like the original H&V and then the '04 version. He just doesn't do it like he used to. Whereas, Dylan may not have the same voice he has, but he still has that ability to phrase his lyrics in that special way he always did (or however he wants). Brian doesn't seem to have that control. Do you think he purposely just became less disciplined? Because you can't blame it on the 80's Landy treatment, since its been happening since like the mid 70s. I dont know.

As someone else said - I really, really do think the fact that he had stopped with the coke and cigarettes and was all around much healthier was causing his voice to revert back to how it was before, although obviously it'd never be quite the same. I also really, really, really don't think any amount of reverb or any kind of studio trickery could have made Brian sound THAT good on MIU.

After he started smoking and doing drugs again, his voice again suffered, but by that point enough damage had been done that it would never sound like it would again on MIU.

Concerning the difference between his voice on the two songs mentioned here and "Tomboy", the latter was mostly recorded a while earlier while he still had his Love You style of voice going on.

As far as his discipline and phrasing - this happens over time with most singers, really, Dylan is an exception. Given Brian's huge history of mental illness and drugs and the sh*t that Landy was giving him, I think it's natural that his voice has gotten a bit more slurred and lacking in control over time.

Also - Brian leads on rough mixes of the LA stuff? What's out there?

Runners, I don't think there were any songs on LA that were supposed to have Brian on leads. I think they were just referring to demos like "I'm Begging You Please", which although being a pretty decent tune, definitely does not have some of the better BW vocals I've ever heard.

If Brian's MIU vocals were "covered up" by things like multiple punches, triple tracking, and reverb, it's a shame nobody thought of that for 15 Big Ones/Love You and after MIU, because he never sounded that good again. Here all along I thought it was the stopping of smoking, the stopping of cocaine use, and just basically getting his voice back into shape through recording and touring. I also thought he might've been relaxed for the MIU sessions, which was evident on the Our Team documentary.

I recently wrote about MIU in a recent thread about initial reactions when albums came out, but I'll reiterate here since it's a specific thread on Brian's vocals. I first became a fan in 1974 when my sister bought Endless Summer, and in 1975 when my buddy bought the Spirit Of America 8-track for his car. So, the only Beach Boys' music I was exposed to was the the early stuff - with classic Brian Wilson vocals. Imagine my shock when the first two "new" Beach Boys' albums I bought were 15 Big Ones and Love You.

I was obsessed with what happened to Brian, specifically his voice. I watched in horror and amazement in 1976 when Brian appeared on Mike Douglas, Saturday Night Live, and the NBC-TV special. It was as if I had my own private mantra - thiscantbethesameguywhowroteand sangthoseoldbeachboyssongs. Of the millions of Beach Boys' fans around the world, I felt that nobody was as obsessed with Brian's "condition" as me. Keep in mind that at that time there was no internet, message boards, or YouTube, so you had very limited access to what was going on with the group. So, from April 1977 to October 1978, all I had to go on were the hoarse vocals from 15 Big Ones and Love You. I tried to look for bright spots, signs if you will, that Brian could still sing. There was the falsetto on "In The Still Of The Night", his high part on "Airplane", even the last line of "Let's Put Our Hearts Together". I even saw the band in concert for the first time in June 1978, and, although Brian looked better and played much bass, he didn't sing significantly.

Now, it's a hot autumn night, I go to the record store, see MIU in the album bin, and hurry to pay for it and rush home. When I dropped the needle on that record, and heard Brian singing "She's Got Ryhthm", well, I can't describe the elation. Then came his lead on "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", and the best, which was "Matchpoint Of Our Love". But the one that caught me off guard was the last one. I thought "Winds Of Change" - and the album - was over. And, all of a sudden, out comes this emotional Brian falsetto, "WON'T LAST FOREVER...."

I was near tears, tears of joy. This was what I had been waiting for. He's back! The voice is back! I immediately played the album again, and I've been a fan of MIU ever since. And, never again did I have a reaction nearly this positive to a new Beach Boys' album, either as a group or solo. And that's been 32 years now. You can imagine my disappointment when L.A. Light Album came out, not so much because of the material, but because Brian was nowhere to be found. Brian also had no real extended leads on Keepin' The Summer Alive. So, after the trifecta of 15 Big Ones/Love You/MIU, where Brian was all over those records, he dissappeared - vocally. What happenned? Of all the great mysteries that IS The Beach Boys, the fall of Brian after MIU is the one that perplexes me the most. Well, other than SMiLE I guess... :police:

What I find really interesting, is that Brian (by all accounts including his) was reportedly MISERABLE during the recording of MIU...stuck out in the middle of godforsaken Iowa (no offence...I live pretty close to the MIU, so I can get away with saying that!), in the dead of frozen winter, depressed and isolated, not in charge, and yet he turns in friggin' GREAT vocals!  Whereas on the previous two albums, he WAS in charge (of the music production...obviously Landy was bullying him around, but at MIU he had Stan and Rocky bullying him around, AND someone else in charge of the album's production), writing songs about subjects HE felt like writing about (as opposed to MIU, where Mike and Al obviously controlled the lyrical themes of his songs)...but he sounded like CRUD.  Just doesn't make sense, does it??

Again, there's no way effects and reverb could have made Brian sound THAT good. Punch ins could have made for an overall better vocal, but that's still Brian singing with no real trickery involved - he really did just sound great around then.

Lack of cigarettes can sure do that...listen to Dylan in his Nashville Skyline era...sweet, sweet vocals.  An it's cause he quite smoking for that time.

Same as recordings done with pitch correction. The pitch may be "fixed" somewhat, but you can't change the actual timbre of someone's voice.

While Brian's leads on MIU  are pretty spot on it's a shame he didn't help with the harmonies a bit more. On many a song all I can hear is pretty much Al stacked on Al stacked on Al...

I cant sing to save my life so I'll ask anyone here who does ; What's generally harder to sing Beach Boy wise? The leads or the harmony and counter harmonies? Of course I realise it depends on the song in question to a degree which is why I ask "in general".

Didn't I read somewhere (I'm beginning to doubt it since noone else has brought it up) that Al sweetened some of Brian's better MIU vocals by doubling them very subtly, thus making Brian sound better than the previous two, and most following, records.

I'm gonna respectfully disagree, mikes beard. I hear Brian's high voice on many of MIU's songs, especially "Hey Little Tomboy", "Kona Coast", "Wontcha Come Out Tonight", "Belles Of Paris", "Pitter Patter", and "Diane". Actually, as much as I love Brian's lead vocals, I have to admit that, while I'm glad he was in the mix with his high part, some sound a little shaky. The harmonies weren't as polished as the following Bruce-produced albums, which might be considered by some to be too slick.

Do you mean that the doubled voice (the second voice added) was Al's?

Exactly, sorry for not being clearer. Sort of like Desper said Carl had done with the second part of Surf's Up (but due to tape deterioration), I guess.

Also, one more thing....was the  "Winter Symphony" lead by Brian? That wasn't too bad either.

Any anyways, now that we've kinda drifted that way, why weren't there any Brian leads on LA or KTSA?

Or for that matter, only 1 Brian song on LA? I know "I'm Begging You Please" and "California Feelin" were recorded during that era, why not put those on the album. Or was Brian against "CF" being on the album (although I'm pretty sure he was just against it being on MIU).

On KTSA, he was almost invisible too, although he was heavily involved in recording it, besides like "Goin On" and "When Girls Get Together" (which is from like 10 years before).

I don't know, just seems like either he didn't wanna be on the front lines or that they were finally annoyed by his somewhat "embarassing" vocals.

I was mainly thinking of "Come Go With Me" I think when I typed that post. Everytime I hear the opening of that song I visualise an army of Al clones "DOM"ing!
Must admit it's been awhile since I last heard M.I.U so my memory may be a little fuzzy. Good enough excuse as any to did it out again I suppose.

That doesn't sound right to me, I don't think it's true.


Yep, I believe from around the same time, too.

I know, I doubt it myself. Although Brian and Al sounded alike pre-Brian's voice change, that similarity certainly was gone by 1977. So noone else remembers reading this?

I don't know.  I'm not saying Brian's voice wasn't better, but I am telling you a very careful listen to the vocals and you can tell there was some very clever mixing going on.  The Al doubling theory wouldn't surprise me.  That aside, I do think a lot of it has to do with someone other than himself producing this session.  Even to this day I understand Brian does better vocals when someone's riding him.  The difference could very well just be someone in the control booth going "no, Brian, do it again."  And come to think of it, Brian couldn't just walk out and go home.  He was stuck in Iowa.  That might be your answer right there.

I've heard a bunch of outtakes from the KTSA and LA era and there's only one where Brian turns in a passable lead vocal, and that was on a cover of an old '50s song.  He tried to sing "California Feeling" and you can tell how seriously he takes it by singing "it was such a beautiful day...[then dryly:]...like most days!"  I think they tried to get him on there but his lead vocals just weren't cutting it.  I think he's doing a lot of the falsettos on KTSA, so they were really trying to have him sing as much as possible.

Really I can't think of many LA or KTSA era Brian leads. I know there was "I'm Begging You Please" but I remember all the oldies covers been either Carl or Mike except for like "River Deep Mountain High" which was not exactly Brian's finest hour. And that "California Feeling" lead vocal try, when was that from? I've never heard of that.

He sounds pretty good on "Sunshine", and OK on "Goin' On".

Yeah, and live in mid-1980, he was OK/good on the "Surfer Girl" bridge, but a little shaky on his "Good Timin" part, slightly off-key as if he didn't know when to come in (he had to watch for Carl's nod).

I say this, not to try to start something or seek attention, but I didn't think his 1981 vocals were that bad. He seemed to be actually "singing", almost in a lower register, almost foreshadowing what was to come.

Wow I never even noticed the Brian part on "Sunshine"....probably because I've only listened to it a handful of times in my life. Hes on the last line of ever chorus right? Sounds like his late 70s/early 80s "falsetto".

Also, does anybody know why they really didn't use much Brian material on LA? Do you think it was Bruce's choice since he was producing? "Good Timin'" is a great song, and I just can't imagine CBS being very happy that they just signed the boys and had Brian only contribute one new song. They couldn't have been jumping for joy at a disco remake of an oldie, and some new Mike Love and Al Jardine numbers, along with a few sleepy Carl songs. "Baby Blue" however is an awesome tune, but honestly, how did they even accept this. There must have been better Brian stuff in the can they could have used?

And, of all the Brian Wilson songs in the can, and, for arguably the first real "adult" Beach Boys' album, Bruce chooses "Shortenin' Bread". Brilliant choice.... ???

" Baby Blue" is beautiful.

On Sunshine, he's singing pretty much the whole way through.  You can also hear him on Going On, the intro to "School Days", on Santa Ana Winds (not vocally though, just harmonica), and "Some of your Love".


Brian was on more LA tracks, just not the ones that actually made it to the album.

What LA outtakes was he on? Cali Feelin, Brian's Back, and what else?

I'm fairly certain I hear Brian joining in on the Santa Anna Winds chorus.

Iffn they'd known said 'new' song was about four years old, I expect they'd have been even unhappier. Yetnikoff was right.  ;D

Yeah, me too. Not to get obsessive about it, but at 2:37 I think I hear Brian singing "Oh the..." or "Oh those..." right before the group sings "...Santa Ana Winds...".

Yes, and those vocals were recorded in 1978.  Also, despite what we used to think, the harmonica is not Brian but rather an uncredited Tommy Morgan (also from 1978).

Oh darn it. That takes away something from that song, doesn't it?

Why ? Exactly the same harp as it was yesterday, before you knew this. That's a very Bloo-ish response - "oh, not Brian so it can't be as good".  :wall

Think of it this way, Fall Breaks...it's a harmonica solo by the guy Brian selected to play harmonica on "Pet Sounds", "Good Vibrations", "Friends", and later "Goin' Home".  And the guy who played the theme to "Sanford and Son"!

Wow...all this time I thought it was Brian! :lol

I just don't understand how they accepted the LA Album. Didn't the contract specify a certain amount of participation from Brian? Especially for the first album in the CBS contract. I mean, Brian or not, its probably a better album than the more Brian-centric MIU, KTSA, or BB85, but still, how did the BB manage to get away with this. Same thing for Surf's Up, CATP, and Holland, I thought all those albums had contracts that called for like 70 percent of the writing (or something like that) to be BW.

And honestly, I'm kinda confused with why Yetnikoff said he was "f***ed". What exactly was the guy expecting, Sunflower or Pet Sounds? Did he even listen to 15BO, LY, or MIU? Compared to MIU, I'd probably be happy to take "California Feelin'", "Baby Blue", and *gulp* "Brian's Back".

I was in a situation a few years ago where I was allowed to hear -- but I have to stress, never came into possession of, and hear in a controlled environment -- a few non-bootlegged items.  One of the things I was curious about was the KTSA/LA era recordings, so that's how I came to hear "California Feeling" and a couple of other things.  I don't actually own any bootlegs, or at least, none in the last 13 years or so, so I don't know what's on them or not.  But one thing that became apparent to me was there was an effort to have more Brian on both those recordings, but they didn't come up with anything that they could use (with the one exception that I suspect was left off for aesthetic reasons).

What was the exception? I'm assuming "I'm Begging You Please" if only because its actually from those sessions but doesn't fit the "light, mellow" vibe of the album?

It's interesting that they had him give it a go at "California Feelin'" in '78. I figured that Brian wanted Carl to sing it. Anyways, did he actually finish the performance, or was it finished after his little "aside" early in the song? I just don't understand why they didn't use this song on LA...it totally fits with the vibe. Maybe they had too many Carl vocals on the album already? Who knows.  Anyways it would be interesting to hear both the '74 and '78 Brian takes on the song someday soon (please BRI? A seventies rarities anthology?)

It's amazing how Brian's voice was somewhat smoother on MIU, then by the end of 1978 he's choking on sandpaper singing Drip Drop.

Meh - not the first instance of it going back and forth. He sounds exactly like he always did on the early "Ding Dang", recorded in late 74, yet just a few days later sounds much more like his newer voice on "Child of Winter" (albeit the "Pied Piper" voice confuses the issue a bit). Regardless, 15 Big Ones started work the next year, and you know what his vocals sound like there.

Nah, the Brian cover I'm thinking of, as I've already said I think, was from the KTSA sessions.  I probably shouldn't say which, but a gander at Andrew Doe's 1979 sessions page will narrow it down.

Something else just occurred to me about the M.I.U. Brian vocal thing.

Let's think about the timing for a minute.  M.I.U. happens and then not long after, Brian cracks up and is sent to Brotman.  IIRC, he flies directly out of Brotman and into the L.A. sessions in Miami (right there you have to ask yourself, wtf?).  What's the very next thing that happens?  Brian calls Bruce to come in and sing and/or produce. 

You take those three things together, it's very suggestive.  You can only conclude that Brian, coming straight out of the mental hospital, couldn't really function in the high pressure setting of a new label deal AND you have to wonder if his singing after being hospitalized was far below what the band expected.  They may have thought, like we did, that he'd be about where he was vocally for M.I.U., but it turned out he had basically nothing post-Brotman, for whatever reason.  Then, the phone call to Bruce.

The timing's suggestive, as I said.

Because I experience different things listening to a harp (I assume is) played by Brian Wilson than what I do listening to a harp played by a studio musician whom I haven't read dozens of books about, haven't met and don't even know how he looks. Also, I thought I heard Brian play a great harmonica line, which impressed me since the only (?) time I had heard him play harmonica before was "Susie Cincinnati" which is a much simpler part. Thirdly, I enjoyed hearing a prominent Brian Wilson performance (as in lead vocal and/or easily audible instrument) from an album that he isn't that present, or at least prominently audible, on. Fourthly, if that's a word, that harmonica line sounds so free and so full of life that I sometimes could get genuinely moved hearing it, wondering how Brian could kick in such a performance at that troubled time of his life.

That's why. The harp line is just as good as it was yesterday. It just affects me differently.

He may have wanted something largely in tune with the times. Remember: there was elemental punk and new wave going on (for which the BBs not really qualified then, they did with '409' and 'Shut Down', and also with 'Love You'...); and there was a lot of AOR along the lines of Styx, Toto, Saga, really bland anaesthesized material. Perhaps the BBs songs just were too flimsy, too childish in his eyes.

Hmm, well by narrowing the '79 sessions, I can only see a few oldies that could've been by Brian. By the process of elimination Da Doo Ron Ron (Carl) and  School Days (Al) are out. So I'm assuming either Jamaica Farewell, Smokey Places, or Johnny B. Goode, although JBG seems like that would be a Mike sung title. I dunno, any more hints???  ;D

Nope, I think that's enough.

I was hoping someone more knowledgeable than me would have chimed in about the whole post-Brotman chain of events....

Yeah anybody wanna help out here?

I re-looked this thread up, and I thought it was an interesting discussing, I was wondering if anybody out there could expound on Adam's statements about what happened with Brian post Brotman, and during the whole Light Album period. It seems that we are kinda in the dark on this period, as far as where Brian was, whether he was around for any of the California sessions for the album, etc...

So he flies out to Miami to produce, after that whole chain of events which landed him in the hospital for a bit. Then he has at least one really great day, where he produces a great version of "Calendar Girl." That something totally bums him out, and he calls Bruce up to produce the album.

After the meeting with Yetnikoff, they head back to California, and as far as I can see, the only new Brian songs attempted from this era are "I'm Begging You Please" and an untitled song. They also bring back "Good Timin'" and apparently he is not at the session for the background vocals, so I'm assuming he is out of commission. But where is he? Why wouldn't he be at a session for vocals for one of his best songs in years?

I get the feeling he probably wasn't around all that much for these sessions? From what I can gather, the only work for the album he did in California would seem to background vox on "Angel Come Home" (from what I've heard), an attempted lead vocal for "California Feelin'", some work on "I'm Begging You Please", and probably piano on "Good Timin'" (which likely would have come from '74).

I don't know. Just seems odd the guy would be MIA with this huge contract on the line. Especially when a certain amount of material was supposed to be penned by him or whatever.

Let me amend this slightly: "he flies out was flown out to Miami to produce". From my understanding, Brian's presence the Criteria sessions wasn't voluntary. I can think of 8,500,000 reasons why.

I remember reading, either on this board or surfermoon an account of the LA Brian sessions and Brian's subsequent breakdown. It was written by one of the 'session' members.
As I recall, Brian arrived rip-rearin to go and recorded quite a lot in two days, calling in Bruce to help out with vocals. The musicians were wowed by Brian's methods. After about two or three days, Brian received a call. The story-teller did not know who was calling; he theorized that it was a lawyer who was dealing with Brian and Marilyn's divorce. Whoever it was, after the call, Brian curled up on a sofa in the studio and didn't move--for days.
Bruce took over in an emergency. He didn't understand what Brian was recording(some had been recorded at different speeds than normal, there were parts that hadn't been completed, etc) and apparently wiped most of it.
The person who told the story talked to Dennis who was recording songs for Bambu at the same time in the same place with I assume the same musicians. Dennis' reply was something along the lines of: "There's nothing I can do. Brian always does what Brian wants to do and there is nothing that is ever going to change that."

Divorce is stressful for anyone.

For some reason, I was under the impression that it was Brian who filed for divorce. :/

Maybe. I believe the theory was that it was the lawyer calling.

Anyway, divorce is stressful and depressing no matter who files especially with kids involved not to mention addiction.

Funnily enough, reading the other thread, I think it was Ed Roach himself who wrote the story I've just tried to recall.

Brian also cut the infamous DRIP DROP at the post-Miami California sessions for L.A.  As to why he wasn't more involved...well, quite simply, he was eventually hospitalized again.  This is well documented in Stephen Gaines' "Heroes And Villains" book.  In regards to "Good Timin'", here's what engineer Tom Murphy told me:  "We were hoping Brian would sing the lead on 'Good Timin''.  But time ran out.  So Carl and I did the vocal at Britannia Studio, where we did a lot of the backing vocals for the whole record.  It was bittersweet for me; Carl sang HEAVENLY but we both wished it was Brian".  And the reason time ran out is because Brian was still in the hospital, and the deadline for the album's completion was fast approaching (it had already been delayed numerous times over the course of the previous year or more, and the record company simply was not going to wait any longer).

Listening to "Drip Drop", it sounds like Brian was very involved!  ;D

Is Drip Drop any good?

I'd rather call it "unique"...

I was thinking about it, wasn't the lead for "Good Timin'" recorded in '74 actually, along with the most of the track? I wonder how a '78 Brian woulda sounded doing the lead on this song though. Does sound interesting. I wonder if there is a '74 demo with his vocal on it. That too, would be interesting.

But anyways, so I guess my question was answered about his lack of participation, he was probably not around for many sessions. I forgot that he indeed went back to the hospital in the fall of '78 until early '79. Just re-read that section of the Gaines book. How sad. And I guess I can see why the did what they did with the Light Album. Makes sense that he wasn't as involved. You'd think that Warners would rather wait to have an album featuring a bit more Brian, rather than just putting anything out there. However, the only thing they probably could have improved the album with, Brian-wise, was probably adding "California Feelin'". Don't know if there was much else he had around at the time that was really that high in quality. "I'm Begging You Please" was pretty rough, but maybe coulda be something decent. Overall, I think the album was quite strong for a latter day BB effort.

Except( small typo) it wasn't Warners....

D'oh. I mixed that up with CBS.

I tend to go VERY easy on Brian around this period. He sang like an angel for a few great years, but upon inspection it's clear he didn't exactly possess the vocal "instrument" that Carl or Al or even Mike were able to develop from singing on Brian's recordings and then as professional live singers. Brian sounded great in the early days but he was pretty much always double tracked, and though his vocal character was amazing is wasn't necessarily powerful. Brian was learning to sing in the studio as much as he was pioneering. And he really didn't have the chance to ever develop as a singer. His glory days were over almost before they had begun and Carl pretty much took over for him vocally and developed and grew from where Brian left off.

Where the other Beach Boys are concerned: singing live a billion and a half dates a year: by the time Brian was dragged out of bed and into the studio for 15 Big Ones, how was he not supposed to sound inferior next to his professional singer band -mates? And that's without all the smoking/coke/lack of exercise and mental problems.

I'd say that after 15 Big Ones and Love You, Brian might have had is sea legs back a bit, so when MIU rolls around, and someone else is riding him in the studio, he's able to kick himself into a higher gear and bang out some good vocals, if only so he can get the hell out of there: still with some studio tricks and some Al doubling..... Then by the time of LA, he's in a different place and fresh out of the mental hospital (where he probably wasn't getting much singing done)..... it makes perfect sense.  A singer needs to always practice and keep the pipes in good condition. If you don't use it, you lose it.

Erik, I think you make a really good point here.  It's easy to overrate Brian's early vocals -- if you listen to, for instance, the "Don't Worry Baby" outtake from the '64 IN CONCERT, you could hear that even in his prime Brian could be erratic and pitchy.  I'd argue he was only truly awesome as a vocalist from around '64-'67, and the PET SOUNDS outtakes revealed how much trickery was involved in some of the vocal work there (e.g. the intro to "I Just Wasn't Made For These Times.").

And yeah, it's a GREAT point that if you're not singing all the time, you lose it fast.  Vocal chords are muscles...they atrophy without use.  That could well be the answer to the M.I.U. vs. L.A. question...M.I.U. was after two years of singing live and in the studio, whereas L.A. was after X months at Brotman.  It makes sense to me.

Btw, we missed you Saturday!

To what are you specifically referring to Adam?

Cheers :)

Just curious: why don't you include '63 as well? I mean, '62 he wasn't great yet (example: Cuckoo Clock), but '63 had such numbers as Hawaii, No-Go Showboat, Farmer's Daughter and Spirit of America.

This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board.  I have always been attached to the idea that Brian was the harmonica player on SAW -- and my feelings on learning that it is not true are exactly the same as yours, Fall Breaks.  Thank you.

Also, I would add that it was AGD who stated at least twice on this board (and in his book) that the harmonica was Brian.  Andrew, you now seem to accept that it was not Brian.  Why the change?

Because, like all good researchers should, when I was presented with conflicting information that also had convincing documentation, I put my hand up and said "sorry, wrong". The original claim that it was Brian originated with one Brad Elliott, and like a lot of folk back then, I took his word for it (and a lot of other stuff).  Then someone whom I trust implicity gave me info from an AFM sheet which contradicted the prevailing belief.  I know I'm not the easiest guy sometimes, but neither am I so arrogant and egotistical as to be incapable of admitting my error.  Again, that's what being a good researcher is all about - a willingness to accept new info even when (especially when) it goes against what you've been saying. The truth, and accuracy, are more important than my ego.

Just.  ;D

Andrew -- thanks for the response.  Your research and attention to detail are much appreciated, as is your sharing of your knowledge here.   Too bad about Brian and that harmonica, though.  Boy did I love the idea of him wailing on that thing!

And THIS is one of my favorite posts on the board.  The idea that you stick to your guns until proven wrong, but when proven wrong, admit it.  It's not that hard of a concept!

I was specifically referring to another song!!!  LOL.  I should have said "You Still Believe In Me."  I was PWI (Posting While Impaired).

I remember laboring very hard to be able to sing that whole falsetto/theremin line that opens the song in one go (got a very funny story involving Matthew Sweet that revolves around this), and having been able to just get it, being bummed to hear the many breath noises on the isolated vocal track that revealed Brian had comped the whole part.

As to why '64 and not '63 for Brian's mature vocal period...YMMV.  I did use "awesome" as opposed to "very good."  To me there's a difference between the sensitivity of the vocal on "Please Let Me Wonder" as opposed to just the energy of a "Farmer's Daughter."  "The Lonely Sea" might be a better apples to apples comparison...it's very moving but there's another level of skill and sophistication to the singing that you hear on the TODAY tracks.  But I admit it's kind of an arbitrary distinction.

You can make a modern-day comparison in that I have been put off by Brian's modern-day vocals for years, but I've been VERY impressed by his vocal work on the last few albums.  That thing that people have been saying for a long time, about his older voice conveying a sense of wear and emotion, I didn't buy before but I am buying now.  The thing is, his basic instrument is just as messed up as it's ever been, but I think just the years of singing onstage and having the ongoing vocal coaching have paid off in knowing how to use it better.

The voice is a funny thing...you can't constantly thrash it or you wind up like Elton John, but you can't baby it, either.  A certain amount of stress is good for the voice; it's kind of like a workout, you want to push it just far enough to grow, but not enough to damage.  And I've messed up my voice way worse doing hours of soft background vocals than I ever did tearing my throat out singing punk rock. 

As I said, I think Erik may be spot on.

I think it also comes down to just the type of voice one has.... Carl, for instance, really didn't have to push himself to get there as Brian might have had to/still does. I could be completely wrong, but Carl seemed to sing with his basic speaking voice whereas Brian went up into this other realm which isn't easy. I'm very impressed by what Brian can still do and has done since he's been out there kicking ass with his band. In the early days Brian pushed himself to sing like he did and that sort of discipline needs to be maintained and developed otherwise at some point you're just pushing rather than getting somewhere. Especially when you no longer have the voice of a 20 year old. I love when Brian sang/sings in a more natural relaxed register. Listen to Please Let Me Wonder then listen to I'd Love Just Once To See You. Those songs are years apart but he sounds just as good on both. Brian has a lovely natural tone when just singing and not pushing. The voice is a fragile instrument. Elton could maybe repair his voice, but maybe it's too far gone.... Look at Brian Johnson! He blew his voice to merda in just about 4 years (80-84) but somehow recently got it back to working order at like 60 something years old. It's possible.
 
Adam, it was a drag to not to be able to make it Saturday. I'll be at your Elton show for sure! Mark my words.

Elton has actually got better over the last year or so -- his vocals on the Leon Russell collab are quite good, and he seems to be doing some interesting stuff in concert: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxMqevZ1e3Q&sns=em (note some of the higher range stuff).

Well... that's definitely interesting, but I'm sure glad I didn't pay anything to hear it. He using pretty much every trick in the book to cover his vocal shortcomings. Listening to "Don't Let The Sun..." now and oh my, it's like hearing a bad Vegas lounge act.  :(

Yay! Someone understands me!  :-D

I see what you mean, Adam. And as you say, it's an arbitrary distinction, and Brian's progress as a singer wasn't all straight. Compare "Keep an Eye on Summer", recorded February 19, 1964 to "The Warmth of the Sun", recorded January 8. To me, TWOFTS is a better lead vocal - definitely awesome as compared to the very good delivery on KAEOS.

...Some songs are just more inspired.

True. And it's easier to sing a great song in an ass-kicking way than a more anonymous number. Could the generally higher quality of the songs from 1964-67 than 1963 have had an impact on Brian's vocal performance?

Discuss.  :)

Eh.  I'm a pretty big Elton geek (check my schedule for January 15th), and I hear what you're talking about, but I'm not really impressed.  His voice even ten years ago was miles clearer and more flexible than it is now.  He lost a lot of his range in the years following his throat surgery, but he still had good tone and control.  Now he has one mode, which is old blues dude.  (I actually reinforced this opinion just last night by listening to exactly the clip you posted here)

Getting ready for the show on Jan. 15th was an interesting point of contrast, working out "I Want Love" as well as a bundle of his early stuff.  Harmonically, "I Want Love" has a lot of interesting stuff going on, but it's not as noticeable or as engaging because the melodic range of the vocal is so limited.  That's a lot of what I loved about Elton's old work AND the Beach Boys...the drama and emotion and interest of these great swoops of melody that you get from having a tenor register.

That said, I saw a recent video of him doing "I Guess That's Why They Call It The Blues" with some young singer and the dude was just AWFUL.  ATROCIOUS.  And as much as I'm not into Elton's current mode of singing, I was begging for him to pick up the verse and kick the guy off the stage.  

So I'm not saying he doesn't have something to give, but the guy has trashed his voice pretty hard.  I also suspect the guy is suffering from some severe, and undiagnosed, sinus issues.  I've had similar problems that had been a hidden factor in making it difficult to hit high notes until I figured it out...and if you watch carefully, the guy is always blowing air up into his ears by holding his nose.  That's a sure sign he's got sinus problems, and given my experience with high priced ENTs, I bet no one's spelled out the direct connection between that and his singing issues.  But that's exactly what it looks AND sounds like.

Elton if you read this...get a CT scan of the sinuses, and get a neti pot!  You'll thank me the next time you have to sing "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road."

"Birds" from West Coast is one of my favorite latter-day Elton songs Adam, that's the last album Elton has a decently clear voice on and he sings really well on that song in particular.

Agreed.  That's a good one...and he uses his baritone register well on that whole record.  The next two albums are a tough go for me because of the vocals, even though C&TK has some good songs.

It's too bad it's such a meh album, because Elton's vocals on THE BIG PICTURE are so close to getting back to his heyday, kind of an MIU of sorts for him.  Some wonderful soaring stuff on there, and live stuff from around that time is great too...check out his duets with Brian on "God Only Knows" and "Wouldn't It Be Nice," his "Still The One" with Shania Twain, his live by request version of "Philadelphia Freedom" where he actually grabs some top notes he'd been cheating on for years.  His voice was rocking in '98-'99.  I wonder what happened after?  You can hear the decline in just the two years to SFTWC, and much worse after that.  It could be simply that by reaching for past glories in that two year stretch, he burnt the rest of his voice out.

You know, I have Big Picture but I never seriously listened to it aside from "Something About the Way..." (a very good track), I might have to dig it out soon for the vocals. The "God Only Knows" and "WIBN" with Brian are from 2001, and he sounds great, in fact I've taken a little of his phrasing on the latter when I sing it myself:) And while we're on the topic, if you listen to "Tinderbox" from C&TK, it approaches his best work (it's a great melody and lyric for one) but he's just a tad too gruff on it to make it a classic. So close, though.

Adam -- Frankly, I wonder if many of Elton's vocal issues are quite simple (although the sinus theory is an interesting one). I had cassette tapes, back in the day, of a show he did at MSG in 95. He sounded terrible -- everything low and barky. Clearly that didn't affect how he sounded on the Big Picture.

I think two things happened. First, he changed producers. Chris Thomas did almost all the 80s and much of the 90s stuff, and he was apparently one of those stitch-together-words kinds of producers. His style was arguably too slick, but he knew how to make EJ sound good. Afterward, EJ started producing himself -- and I wonder if the rawness in C&TK isn't something he liked.

Second, he started recording while he was touring. From what I've heard, these last couple of albums were done as he headed to and from shows. (Dylan has had that problem with some recent albums too.) The voice wasn't rested. That being said, I think The Union is a great piece of work, and EJ sounds great to me. But I'm also a Waits and late Dylan guy, so my tolerance for gruffness at all levels is probably atypical.

Frankly, the thing that bugs me about latter-day Elton is that he has some really cliched piano stuff that he does -- whenever he's playing mostly solo, there are certain arpeggiated patterns he _always_ plays. No matter the song. Drives me up the wall. Brian isn't much of a pianist, but at least the wall-of-chords style doesn't allow for that.

Oh!  Now that I think about it, I think you have a great point about recording during/between tours.  I think that is very likely a big contributing factor.  And I think you're also right that he likes his "new" voice.  I kinda get it, it's cool when you get older and you get more depth and body to your voice...but I'm still glad I can hit that high C, too, y'know?

The sinus thing...it just hit me watching him doing the nose thing (it's called the valsalva maneuver...it's used to reinflate the eardrum when it gets retracted from pressure issues caused by mucous getting sucked up into the middle ear).  I was stunned to notice it again and again and again.  He does it surreptitiously, and he does it ALL the time. I'm sensitive to this because I had an awful year and a half where the hearing in my left ear was distorted from a similar problem, and I did the same thing so I could try to hear properly.  I saw that and went, crap, he's got to be experiencing something similar.  And one of the other things that happens is your sinuses get so backed up that it becomes this wall you have to sing through.  Your range decreases and it becomes much harder and more painful to get the top notes, and you get raspy and your voice goes out.  I had those same problems too.  But watch his videos carefully and you'll see him take a split second and put his hand to his nose...that's what he's doing.  I wish I knew someone who knew him, because I had problems along these lines for years and the docs were no help at all.  I finally got mostly better through self-treatment and experimenting...and my range went back up, and my hearing mostly went back to normal.

Elton's always attiributed the loss of his falsetto to his throat surgery, but it's not as simple as that.  He didn't stop singing falsetto until around 1990...there's still a lot of high stuff on the SLEEPING WITH THE PAST album, which is two years post-surgery...not as high as the '70s, but definitely in head voice/falsetto.  There are a few isolated instances of him doing small falsetto bits after that if you listen carefully, though it's very, very infrequent.  But it's not like he has nothing up there, or at least it wasn't the case until recently.  I also wonder if it isn't similar to Al Jardine's situation where you still have a few notes up there, but because they're so weak and your full voice is so strong, you can't connect them, so it's useless in most situations.  I know when my voice goes out, it's the connector notes that go first...the link notes between full voice and the head voice range.  They took the longest to develop and were the hardest to learn to manipulate, and they're the first to go under stress.  Could be a similar thing with what happened to Elton.

I just think Elton's baritone singing style undercuts a lot of great writing.  I've never actually liked the change in his voice going back to '79, when his voice got a lot more affected, but I've grown to appreciate the mid-period years, even if it's not my favorite.  There's just something about Elton in the upper register that's really distinctive and cool.  When he gets down in the low range, he tends to bellow, and that sucker bugs me.  I DO like it on SFTWC though.  It's very Leonard Cohen, and very direct.  I believe every word he sings on that album, it's one of his most convincing vocal performances.  But the later ones, it's just bluster to me.  I loathe PEACHTREE ROAD.  Bad vocals, meh songs and the electronics creep back in.

I agree about "Tinderbox" though I think "The Walls Fell Down" and "Wouldn't Have You Any Other Way" are even cooler.  C&TK did a very nice job recapturing his old spirit, but...criminy.  The vocals just blow it.  "The Bridge" in particular is soooo rough.

I don't have a strong opinion on the Leon Russell album.  I've heard parts of that.  It strikes me as a really good album, but not anything I'm that interested in.  It's just a different bird entirely...which is fine and appropriate, I'm just not into it.

Don't mean to derail things here, BTW -- it's just that I wish a board like this existed to talk about Elton stuff. There are some EJ forums, but almost no one on them knows anything about music. And I actually think EJ -- for all of his continuing fame and record sales -- is terminally underrated. He's actually too famous (and probably likes being so) for people to take his music seriously. I mean, The Union is an excellent album, but the reaction to it seemed a bit overheated compared with C&TK, which was mostly ignored.

Totally agree...I was an Elton shipper before even the Beach Boys, but having worked out so many of his songs recently my respect for him as a songwriter has skyrocketed.  To put together some of these progressions in 15 minutes' time...it's simply genius.  Not Brian Wilson-ish genius, but genius nonetheless.  Some of the chord sequences are simply stunning.  "Someone Saved My Life Tonight" is one of the greatest songs ever done by anyone, anywhere, anytime.

There's a board called Crazy Water I've seen somewhere and popped in on a few times, but yeah, I haven't seen a place where there's this kind of minutiae...I think there may be an issue in that the Beach Boys have a huge following that's about an inch deep, and a then sizable following that's more cult-like.  Elton's mainstream audience is much more into him than the BBs'...but the cult is much smaller.  Which is why I think a lot of his message boards have struck me as being not as deep, and a little bit sycophantic.  It's just, as you say, people that don't know that much about music, or may have gotten into him as an A/C artist, or whatever, and aren't that discriminating.

THE UNION is undoubtedly a fine record, but it strikes me as hitting a bulls' eye with a certain old hipster market (think KCRW and Starbucks) that until now were put off by his mainstream easy listening image, regardless of whether his records warranted it or not. Hence the difference in sales and critical reception.  What I've heard of it doesn't strike me as being as good as C&TK...but I hear it striking a chord with people that don't want to be associated with anything they consider pop.