History of Mike's reputation

[Dancing Bear]

'Guardians of the Correct Perspective' would be too long, I'm afraid...

[Sheriff John Stone]

The Lovemongers!

[Surfer Joe]

erik, that's all totally reasonable- about as reasonable as it gets, actually.  All I could really say in response is that while I also don't have any bile for Mike, I disagree with the theory that sometimes crops up that all criticism of Mike is the result of lies, spin, or a conspiracy; that every possible critical word about him has been discredited or debunked.  Mike is who he is, and he's brought some criticism on himself over the years- as did Dennis, as did Carl, etc.  Brian is so damaged I can't evaluate him on the same basis at all. (Let the tooth-gnashing begin).

The Kokomites have their view and are absolutely entitled to it; but the Mike opposition are not the mass victims of some big campaign, conspiracy, or self-deception. They have their view, presumably honestly arrived at, based on a wealth of data, and it's as valid as yours or mine...fair enough?

[KokoMoses]

Man, "correct perspective"

In my caveman opinion, there is enough (pun warning) Love to go around!

To me it's all just one big Beach Boys concert from the 70's: everyone loves the merda out of the music, the harmonies are killer, we all love Dennis! Carl sings like an angel. Al is Al, Bruce is Bruce. The crowd loves Mike. He has them in the palm of his hand. They worship Brian through the music. And if Brian happens to be there, the crowd goes insane!!!!!

[Surfer Joe]

erik, I hereby proclaim you KokoMoses.

[Dancing Bear]

I think every Beach Boy deserves to be treated like a victim, even Mike. That's in our BBs fandom dna, isn't it?

[KokoMoses]

Surfer Joe: you bring a tear of joy to my eye!

Yup: it's time the other Beach Boys get tossed into the fire:

AL!!!!!? What the hell can explain him? Who's fault is it? Are all the drugs he DIDN'T take to blame?

[Surfer Joe]

Al is a victim of his mother smoking while pregnant:

[Sheriff John Stone]

....makes it very difficult to have any empathy or sympathy for the man. Without that empathy or sympathy it’s very difficult to cut him any slack when he steps over the line that aggravates many fans of the band.

What worries me about this thread and many of the previous Mike threads is that they cross the line and try to rewrite the band’s history....

TonyW, I think if you're going to write things like that you should have to disclose your real, full name.

No, seriously, good stuff. I highlighted just two points I wanted to comment on and question. First, and, yes, I'm saying it again, I CAN empathize with Mike because he was in a rock and roll band with the Wilsons - Brian, Dennis, Carl AND Murry. That's enough to make anybody do or say some questionable things. Can you just imagine having to deal with those people on a day-to-day basis? Well, frankly, not many people could.

And, second, you had me scrambling back to some previous posts to see how we might be re-writing the band's history. Could you list any of the points that you found to be attempts at re-writing history?

[Dancing Bear]

Al is in reality Caesar, the son of Cornelius and Zira. he's a victim of bad, bad movie sequels.

[TonyW]

....makes it very difficult to have any empathy or sympathy for the man. Without that empathy or sympathy it’s very difficult to cut him any slack when he steps over the line that aggravates many fans of the band.

What worries me about this thread and many of the previous Mike threads is that they cross the line and try to rewrite the band’s history....

TonyW, I think if you're going to write things like that you should have to disclose your real, full name.

No, seriously, good stuff. I highlighted just two points I wanted to comment on and question. First, and, yes, I'm saying it again, I CAN empathize with Mike because he was in a rock and roll band with the Wilsons - Brian, Dennis, Carl AND Murry. That's enough to make anybody do or say some questionable things. Can you just imagine having to deal with those people on a day-to-day basis? Well, frankly, not many people could.

And, second, you had me scrambling back to some previous posts to see how we might be re-writing the band's history. Could you list any of the points that you found to be attempts at re-writing history?

Surname's not Wilson, its Wales ... I have no fear!

I've worked with people far worse than the wilsons' I've worked with one narcisist that made Murry look like a saint and I've worked with people with smack habits that made Brian's drug taking look like M&M's.

And if Mike get's one more percentage point than 5% its rewriting the history .. okay interesting point .. it should not be history, it should be the "credit he deserves". I stand corrected but unrepentant.

[Sheriff John Stone]

And if Mike get's one more percentage point than 5% its rewriting the history .. okay interesting point .. it should not be history, it should be the "credit he deserves". I stand corrected but unrepentant.

You wanna give Mike 5% - fine. I don't have a problem with that. At least you're GIVING him SOME credit instead of none at all or totally dismissing him. I'm not gonna argue percentages; that is a debate that will never be settled.

I don't think a number is important anyway. Instead of putting a number on it, or using overall talent as a criteria for Mike's worthiness, I would rather focus on his various accomplishments, things that are more tangible and concrete, things that ARE part of history. That's not ignoring the bad, it's recognizing that Mike did a lot of good things.

[Surfer Joe]

Here's Al as a victim of his tailor, and possibly Carl:


Sing "Sexy Rhonda", Al!

[MBE]

Look can't we all be a little less extreme. It's like politics in here where the other side is wrong and your side is always right. Life doesn't work that way.

Brian did suffer a lot but Brian did make things worse then they had to be. What's more important is that Brian was a one of a kind talent and if he wasn't this all wouldn't concern us.

Mike did try to help but Mike did act like a jerk. What's more important is that Mike was a major part of a great band and his lyrics were sometimes the perfect compliment to Brian's music.

There is no black and white in life especially with the Beach Boys. No one is a total hero and no one is a total villain. I have made it clear that I feel it's stupid to say one person alone made the Beach Boys great. Brian was again unique  but he had talented band mates. Every last Beach Boy including Dave, Ricky, and Blondie were part of what made the band special.  While it's interesting to a point I want to say once again that the Beach Boys lives behind the scene doesn't matter a tenth as much as the music they created.

[Jay]

Al is a victim of his mother smoking while pregnant:

Is that picture photoshopped? It has to be. 

[TonyW]

Perhaps the writers on this board can answer this question:

Multiple books have been written about Brian, a couple about Dennis, one about David Marks, so why never a book about Mike? He's certainly not shy about talking to the media when it comes to newspapers and TV, so why no Mike book?

[Andrew G. Doe]

Al is a victim of his mother smoking while pregnant:

Is that picture photoshopped? It has to be. 

Don't think so - Alan is pretty short. I'd say 5-3 tops, and Brian's 6-2, 6-2.

[Andrew G. Doe]

Perhaps the writers on this board can answer this question:

Multiple books have been written about Brian, a couple about Dennis, one about David Marks, so why never a book about Mike? He's certainly not shy about talking to the media when it comes to newspapers and TV, so why no Mike book?

That's a book I'd love to read. Sadly, not going to happen for the following reasons:

1 - Mike's not interested: he was there, he knows what happened and concerning what anyone else (i.e. us) thinks, he just doesn't care. He's well aware of his perceived persona - doesn't give a flying one.

2 - Can you imagine the storm of litigation that would ensue from an unauthorised biography ?

[TonyW]

Perhaps the writers on this board can answer this question:

Multiple books have been written about Brian, a couple about Dennis, one about David Marks, so why never a book about Mike? He's certainly not shy about talking to the media when it comes to newspapers and TV, so why no Mike book?

That's a book I'd love to read. Sadly, not going to happen for the following reasons:

1 - Mike's not interested: he was there, he knows what happened and concerning what anyone else (i.e. us) thinks, he just doesn't care. He's well aware of his perceived persona - doesn't give a flying one.

2 - Can you imagine the storm of litigation that would ensue from an unauthorised biography ?

So

re' Point 1. In the Harvard context is that a (Love pers. comm.) or dose he think his fans aren't interested in the real Mike Love story?

re Point 2. 

[Andrew G. Doe]

He just doesn't care, is what I've been told by sources i regard as entirely reliable. He's seen that no amount of interviews make any difference, so he's not bothering any more. Although... I've a sneaking feeling that sometimes he plays along with the perception. 

[adamghost]

No, seriously, good stuff. I highlighted just two points I wanted to comment on and question. First, and, yes, I'm saying it again, I CAN empathize with Mike because he was in a rock and roll band with the Wilsons - Brian, Dennis, Carl AND Murry. That's enough to make anybody do or say some questionable things. Can you just imagine having to deal with those people on a day-to-day basis? Well, frankly, not many people could.

I loved Tony's post -- really put this whole bias nonsense to rest, and strangely enough, I also find myself in rare total agreement with Sheriff John Stone on the above quote.  I've always had a great deal of sympathy for Mike on this point.  It must have been a very trying situation indeed...and hardly one that would lead him to question his own actions too deeply, either.

I also like what was said about them all being victims.  I get crabby sometimes when we all forget these are real people, not toy dolls.  They all had a really rough time, and throwing the dysfunctional family dynamic in the mix, where you could never really separate from the crazy -- pure hell.  I'm amazed at what a strong and loving family the Wilsons -- at least the ones I have met -- are, given all they've been through.

[Ganz Allein]

Al is a victim of his mother smoking while pregnant:

Is that picture photoshopped? It has to be. 

Don't think so - Alan is pretty short. I'd say 5-3 tops, and Brian's 6-2, 6-2.

This photo kinda reminds me of the cover photo for Blood Sweat & Tears' 1968 debut album. The band members are all sitting or standing with small versions of themselves.  The title of the album? "Child is Father to the Man."  Hmmm...where have we heard that title before?

[oldsurferdude]

17 days and 15 pages later I’m going to throw my two bobs worth into the mix:

Firstly, for many years, I’ve had little respect for Mike but about a year ago I started to reassess my opinion, primarily because of a number of posts on this board. I dug deep, acknowledged within myself that Mike did make some worthwhile contributions to the Beach Boy’s artistic legacy, but, no matter how I tried, I could no rationalise many of Mike’s actions over the years.

Mike is the sum of his parts and his catalogue of ill advised comments and actions (if he ever took any independent advice) backed with a canon of some truly awful recordings, while championing his own credentials makes it very difficult to have any empathy or sympathy for the man. Without that empathy or sympathy it’s very difficult to cut him any slack when he steps over the line that aggravates many fans of the band. For every All This Is That, Let The Wind Blow or Big Sur there is a catalogue of misdemeanours and truly atrocious songs and recordings.

I’ve sat down, weighed the good and the bad of Mike and Brian and I reason that Mike is at best, at the very best, 5% the talent of Brian and frankly that’s just not enough to sing his attributes from the roof top.

What worries me about this thread and many of the previous Mike threads is that they cross the line and try to rewrite the band’s history and credit Mike with more than he deserves, it almost feels like I’m in some sort of zealous, extreme right, conservative Christian, flat earth, creationist, revival meeting that counters ever value and iota of knowledge I posses.  (My apologies to 99% of the global Christian faith who I do not count in that assessment).

Simple: Brian’s a screw up, Mike’s a screw up and in my own way I am the same. I can live with it.

I'd like to put this post up for nomination as best post on any BB message board for this year. Well done !

[Susan]

Just as a point of information on "Child is Father of the Man," from Wikipedia:  The title is a quotation from a similarly titled poem by Gerard Manley Hopkins, slightly misquoting a poem by William Wordsworth called "My Heart Leaps Up When I Behold".

[Cam Mott]

No one's mind was changed. Hoorah for us!