Relationship between Brian and Carl

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Someone mentioned on the 'last pictures of Dennis and Carl' thread that Brian and Carl had a bad relationship going back to 1973. I am sure it was up and down like any others in the band. But I thought this was interesting. Is there any truth to this? More insight on the history of the relationship between these two? Because every book I've read seems to not say much of anything negative between these two. Other then Carl not wanting to include 'Mt Vernon..' on Holland.

[Jason]

Brian once called Carl an asshole in the mid-90s.

[urbanite]

I feel sorry for Carl, having an older brother that fell apart.  I don't know the truth of what went on, but it seems as if Carl put up with a lot of atrocious behavior for many years.

[grillo]

I thought Murry's death, and how the other Wilson's dealt with it, was the beginning of their bad blood...?

[MBE]

He was mad at Brian for skipping Murry's funeral. I think Brian's performance quality bothered him on stage. In other words he didn't trust Brian creatively anymore. I also think Brian was jelous that Carl and Audree were closer. Before 1973 I am sure they were close and I doubt the real estrangment didn't start until the 80's. Still I would like to think that Carl and Brian loved each other. I think Landy and maybe a few others kept them apart later on.

[Jay]

There is also that 1978 concert where Carl directed the sound guys to turn Brian's mic off....through the microphone. So everybody, including the audience, heard it. That would have pissed me off.

[Mr. Cohen]

Carl and Brian would pray at Brian's house before some Pet Sounds/Smile sessions, so they must have been pretty close. Brian at the time said that he and his brothers became closer because of their shared beliefs about religion. Although the quote (can't remember it exactly) also gives the impression that they may not always have gotten on as well before. With Brian's and Dennis's personalities I'm sure their were bound to be rocky times.

[hypehat]

There is also that 1978 concert where Carl directed the sound guys to turn Brian's mic off....through the microphone. So everybody, including the audience, heard it. That would have pissed me off.

Ouch!

[wallabie]

Yeah, and it was also Carl who walked out during the Studio Session was "Dancing the night away" wasn´t it.

I am not so sure about the relationship. Heard a lot of rumours (or rumors for our US-friends  ). But I think, apart from the time around 1977-1978 Carl was the only of the Wilson-guys who was always trustful and serious. Am sure that it was not easy to deal with Brian in the whole 70th. They were out on the Road and created damn good music (in my opinion) but they couldn´t manage to have any hits. And even Warner Bros always wanted to have a Single with the Name "Brian Wilson" on it.... and everyone was talking about "Brian here, Brian there". Yeah, sure, he wrote the hits and the best music. But Dennis and Carl also knew their was around the recording studios... so it can drive you really nuts, if you create good music and nobody is interessted in it and your mastermind is weak and does not care about anything.

Mid 70th must have been horrible. With a Brian who was not interessted in doin anything, just taking drugs and drinking alcohol. So I can imagine, that it´s hard to have a relationship with such a man.

But Carl also had problems with Mike and Al because at the end they were not speaking the same language in music no more.

But, in the end... Brian invited Carl to be a part of the Imagination session and at his funeral he really burst into tears...

[Magic Transistor Radio]

Wow! And Carl is the guy that supposedly held the group together?

[Wirestone]

I think of Carl as the more artistically credible version of Mike. He toured with the band for decades, worked hard to keep the musical quality high, and contributed mightily to albums from the late 60s on. And for all of this work, all he got was some slightly condescending praise about the quality of his voice -- he could sing the phone book and it would sound good.

Add to that the same addictive personality traits as his brothers (heroin and alcohol) -- but with the luck and ability to overcome them -- and you can see how he would clash with the much sicker, much more sedentary Brian. 

[Nicko1234]

I think that Landy was obviously a big barrier in their relationship but before that it`s understandable if Carl found Brian`s behaviour and treatment of his family deplorable.

[Pablo.]

Two things to add.

one, on the 1983 Musician interview, Carl states that they can make a hit record with an outside producer but the only way that they can do another great album "Good Vibrations quality" is with Brian healthy enough to produce it, "Anything else is bullshit", and he goes to say very nice and kind things about Brian, caring first for his personal happiness and health.

Two, from a early 90s interview with Michka Assayas (easily one of the best interviews Brian did) BW says something like (my translation from the Spanish translation of the French original) "One of the biggest depressions I've ever had was for my brother Carl. I'll never forget it. He took drugs and smashed his head with them". This has ever puzzled me; I've bring that quote a couple of times over the years on board but no one could elaborate over it. Anyone knows anything else?

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think of Carl as the more artistically credible version of Mike. He toured with the band for decades, worked hard to keep the musical quality high, and contributed mightily to albums from the late 60s on. And for all of this work, all he got was some slightly condescending praise about the quality of his voice -- he could sing the phone book and it would sound good.

I agree with this. Carl never got the credit he deserved for a lot of things, and probably never will.

However, I don't think Brian helped that situation much either. I might've missed some interviews, but in the ones that I saw, Brian only referred to Carl as a fellow Beach Boy, hardly as a brother. And, even when discussing Carl as a Beach Boy, Brian focused on Carl's passing more as "the end of the Beach Boys" or even his (Brian's) end with the Beach Boys, rather than Carl's talent or accomplishments. Brian called Carl "our main man", again referring to him more as part of a rock band lineup, or one of the four part harmony....I don't doubt Brian's sadness, but I expected more of a public tribute, in print anyway. Nobody else was gonna do it....

[Sound of Free]

Even Melinda has said Brian felt Audree favored Carl, so it's obviously something Brian truly never got over. I'm sure Audree loved all her sons to death, but when she needed someone she could count on, it's only natural she would turn to Carl. Brian and Dennis being no-shows at Murry's funeral might have been intended as a slight on Murry, but I'm sure Audree was the one who felt let down.

But even with that trouble and the 1978 "turn off Brian's mic" incident, they seemed to be getting along well by 1980. In that interview from the KTSA promo film, Carl is smiling, sitting along Brian saying. "God you're so great," then bursts out laughing when Brian says "I like food." And Carl seems sincere at Knebworth in praising "our beloved Brian."

I think the real rift came from Landy in the 80s. Landy knew to truly get control over Brian he needed to drive a wedge between the brothers, and he succeeded.

[TdHabib]

From what I've heard I'm pretty sure Carl's funeral was one of the few times since Landy left that Brian was allowed to show true genuine emotion...Carnie said he was crying on Marilyn's shoulder...

[Sheriff John Stone]

I think the real rift came from Landy in the 80s. Landy knew to truly get control over Brian he needed to drive a wedge between the brothers, and he succeeded.

Yes, that's true.

Also, I think the conservatorship issue in the early 90's really hurt both of them. I mean, poor Carl. First, he was the main person who was responsible for contacting Landy the second time in 1982, then, after seeing the damage that was being done, had to be the main one to drive Landy away. Any kind of conservatorship hearing can get ugly, but it must've been heartbreaking - for both Carl and Brian - to have your brother trying to have you declared incompetent in taking care of yourself. Carl did it because he loved his brother, but, obviously, it had to be devastating to Brian.

[Amy B.]

When I think of how Carl must have felt... It seems as if he idolized Brian, at least musically, when they were young. He was Brian's right-hand man in some ways in the 60s and therefore present to see the process Brian used make some incredible music. Brian was the boss, but he was also the big brother. It would be easy to be in awe of him. And then to see what happened to Brian..Carl must have been devastated. Here, he had relied on Brian's mind and creativity for his own living since he was a teenager. He had watched Brian grow and develop musically. And then... Brian started fading until at times he couldn't even communicate with him. And then to have to be the rock of the group must have been so hard. I wonder if Carl viewed Brian with a mixture of pity and resentment in the 70s. The line "our beloved Brian" sounds a bit sarcastic to me.

[Shady]

I like to think that Brian loved Carl up to the end and vice versa, hey just had brotherly squabbles.

Just on a side note, What was Carl's thoughts on Mike, was there love there?

[Jay]

I think the real rift came from Landy in the 80s. Landy knew to truly get control over Brian he needed to drive a wedge between the brothers, and he succeeded.

Yes, that's true.

Also, I think the conservatorship issue in the early 90's really hurt both of them. I mean, poor Carl. First, he was the main person who was responsible for contacting Landy the second time in 1982, then, after seeing the damage that was being done, had to be the main one to drive Landy away. Any kind of conservatorship hearing can get ugly, but it must've been heartbreaking - for both Carl and Brian - to have your brother trying to have you declared incompetent in taking care of yourself. Carl did it because he loved his brother, but, obviously, it had to be devastating to Brian.

You mentioned something I've never really thought about untill now. Carl was the one who contacted Landy the second time around.Imagine how Carl must have felt around five years or so later. Landy destroyed Brian in ways he's(Brian) never been able to recover from. Carl was responsible for that. Of course, that's not what I believe. I'm speaking from Carl's point of view.

[juggler]

I remember a newspaper article from the early '90s (after the Landy era but before Brian married Melinda) about how Brian and Carl had gotten together at a hotel in the L.A. area after several years of not speaking.  The memorable thing about the article was that it said that the two brothers ended up at a piano in the hotel and were singing songs from the Wild Honey album (I remember "Aren't You Glad" being mentioned specifically).  

[Magic Transistor Radio]

I remember when Brian did back to back songs on the Smile tour. He did 'Forever' to honor Dennis and 'Soul Serchin' to honor Carl. I found it odd that he didn't use a song that Carl wrote such as 'Long Promised Road'.

I believe that a lot is to be said about Carl's influence on giving the Beach Boys credibility in the early 70s for the first time since Good Vibrations. Carl was the producer and leader of the group. I have always wondered if they continued going that direction and Endless Summer didn't come out what might have been. I think they should have gone back to Carl as producer in 79 rather then Bruce. Not to say that Bruce was bad, but I think that Carl would've been better.

[Wirestone]

Brian has performed "Heaven" live, although not as many times as "Forever."

[wallabie]

I am not too sure if Carl would have benn better as a producer. He did some real good Jobs by the end of the 60 and long time I thought, that he did all the production work in the early 70th - but then I found out, that songs like "Add some music" are produced by Brian... but, as I said, "Holland" that was nearly entierly produced by Carl, is my 2nd favorite Album of the Band .

It must have been horrible for the Band. Dennis wrote a lot of songs, Carl did many songs... and they were all set up to produce a new album. Then Endless Summer occured and everyone was alsking about Brian Wilson - ok.

I think Carl was highley involved into the Light Album and Keeping the Summer alive Sessions - like "Good timing" produced by Bruce and him. But by this time they needed someone from outsidea to stop the argument. And after the MIU they couldn´t risk to fail again. And it was reportet that CBS president was not really happy with the Light Album...

But - I never understood why nobody but Dennis did produce their own Solo-Works. Bruce did not, Carl did not either... ?... Just my 2 cents...


But if I am not mistaken.. at the end of the 70th and after MIU the Beach Boys retired for some days and they just did come together again because they had already signed the CBS/Caribou Deal worth 8 Million Bucks...

[Sheriff John Stone]

I believe that a lot is to be said about Carl's influence on giving the Beach Boys credibility in the early 70s for the first time since Good Vibrations. Carl was the producer and leader of the group. I have always wondered if they continued going that direction and Endless Summer didn't come out what might have been.

They all had their chances to record whatever they wanted in their solo excusions, not too far removed from the Endless Summer/Spirit Of America time frame, and look at what they came up with. Dennis is the only one who put his money (literally) where his mouth was....